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Madman_Greg



Joined: 07/12/06
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ethernet cabling question
      #1024437 - 15/12/12 03:41 PM
In the middle of doing some house renovation

Have the opportunity to run Cat6 cable to various parts of the house. TV for example in prep for buying an internet TV in the future. Plus data ports as well.

Looking at buying a roll of cable, RJ5 connectors and the crimping tool

The crimping tools seems to vary from under a tenner to £30+

Anybvody got any recomndation is it worth paying the extra for this tool. This will be a one off and I am looking at around laying 12 cables or so to a network hub.

I should add if the more expesnive tool is worth it. I would buy, then ebay, OK would make a loss but say I take a tenner off the retail price, then someone gets a good deal.

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Folderol



Joined: 15/11/08
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Madman_Greg]
      #1024451 - 15/12/12 05:13 PM
You want to go for a solidly chunky tool that clamps firmly and securely every time. Cheap tools have a habit of not pushing the contact cleanly through the wire insulation, resulting in intermittent faults (usually after a few months when the wire oxidises a little).

Get lots of practice with some short strips of cable first and be prepared to throw away a lot of plugs - good job they are cheap.

The trick is to have exactly the right length of outer casing so that the clamp section will bite into it, but also ensure the wires are long enough to reach right to the end of the plug. My way of doing this is to cut back too much sheath, get the wires absolutely straight and in the right order, then holding them securely cut the lot to the same correct length.

The wires will try to twist around all over the place, especially as you try to slip them into the plug, so watch out for the sneaky buggers swapping places!

When you get to the real job allow a loop of cable so that if you screw up a termination, you can chop the plug off and try again. Arrange your routing so that there are no sharp bends. If you have to go round a sharp-ish corner, bring the cable to it on a curve so it is eventually going along the crease of the corner then just 'rolls' round it and curves back.

See if you can borrow a cable tester - always a useful tool for this sort of job.

Finally, put in twice as many lines as you think you will need - with luck, in a couple of years time you'll find that your only short about half the number you want

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Madman_Greg



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Folderol]
      #1024633 - 16/12/12 10:27 PM

Any recommendations greatefully received Folderol

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Madman_Greg


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Folderol



Joined: 15/11/08
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Madman_Greg]
      #1024747 - 17/12/12 06:54 PM
I must admit that mine was bought for me by a previous employer, and was then a middle-of-the-road one. However, it is a proper ratchet one, and the cheapest I could see that categorically states that it's a ratchet is £46!

Where in the world are you? If you're not a million miles away, I could lend you mine. I wouldn't really want to send in in the post. Even though it's not very big, the weight would bump up the cost rather a lot.

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Exalted Wombat



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Folderol]
      #1024749 - 17/12/12 07:10 PM
You need a punch down tool rather than a crimping tool, surely? Because you'll be installing wall boxes with RJ45 sockets rather than leaving a bunch of cables sticking out of the wall with RJ45 plugs on them.


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Folderol



Joined: 15/11/08
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Madman_Greg]
      #1024758 - 17/12/12 08:06 PM
Hmmm. I assumed he was going for the female-female faceplates that are basically just an adaptor.

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Madman_Greg



Joined: 07/12/06
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #1024764 - 17/12/12 08:28 PM

You are right I could use an ethernet patch panel and short patch cables

I will be using wall sockets next to the device (TV for example) or for wall data ports, the current plan was to have cables coming out of a boxed in space which will also contain electric cables as wire and just crimping the RJ45 plugs on. It would be hidden as there will be a custom made book shelf in front. The network switch would be here on the bookshelves.

But I had not realised that patch panels were relatively cheap, so thanks for that, it would be neater so will investigate further

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Folderol



Joined: 15/11/08
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Madman_Greg]
      #1024770 - 17/12/12 08:36 PM
All this incessant chatter
I was thinking of these:
http://shopper.cnet.com/network-cables/belkin-cat5-keystone-jack/4014-3115 _9-3714155.html
that fit into any standard keystone plate. That's what I've got at home.

Sorry, I can't seem to find a UK site

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BJG145



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Madman_Greg]
      #1024818 - 18/12/12 09:14 AM
Quote Madman_Greg:

the current plan was to have cables coming out of a boxed in space which will also contain electric cables as wire



(...BTW you know you shouldn't run ethernet alongside mains don't you...)


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Madman_Greg



Joined: 07/12/06
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: BJG145]
      #1024826 - 18/12/12 10:15 AM
Quote BJG145:

Quote Madman_Greg:

the current plan was to have cables coming out of a boxed in space which will also contain electric cables as wire



(...BTW you know you shouldn't run ethernet alongside mains don't you...)




I didn't but i do now - thanks

I can reroute the cable, but I might have to cross the mains and lighting rings at some point, should I shield in someway, what would be best.

How close can I go to main cables ?

Thanks for all the advice, doing the job is not an issue as I have the skills, just not done it before so thanks for helping pointing out the pitfalls.

--------------------
Madman_Greg


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Exalted Wombat



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Folderol]
      #1024839 - 18/12/12 11:07 AM
Quote Folderol:

Hmmm. I assumed he was going for the female-female faceplates that are basically just an adaptor.




Why would he complicate matters by doing that?


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Folderol



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #1024942 - 18/12/12 06:18 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote Folderol:

Hmmm. I assumed he was going for the female-female faceplates that are basically just an adaptor.




Why would he complicate matters by doing that?



How is it more complicated?

My experience is that - price for price - crimp tools give a far more reliable result than punch-downs and are generally easier to use. Also as you're going to have to put plugs on the other ends, and for any other odds and sods, you save by only needing one tool. The sockets and wall plates themselves are easier to manage, and unless you are using really cheap tat there is virtually no price difference.

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Dave K



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Folderol]
      #1025375 - 21/12/12 08:46 AM
Quote Folderol:

Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote Folderol:

Hmmm. I assumed he was going for the female-female faceplates that are basically just an adaptor.




Why would he complicate matters by doing that?



How is it more complicated?

My experience is that - price for price - crimp tools give a far more reliable result than punch-downs and are generally easier to use. Also as you're going to have to put plugs on the other ends, and for any other odds and sods, you save by only needing one tool. The sockets and wall plates themselves are easier to manage, and unless you are using really cheap tat there is virtually no price difference.




Every connection reduces reliability and introduces an impedance discontinuity, adding a small amount of reflected signal and reducing the noise margin on the line, thus reducing the maximum data rate the link will support (though the latter is not going to be an issue if you are only running GigE). Punch downs are better than plug/sockets in this regard.

It's OK to cross mains cables at 90 degrees, or thereabouts. With regard to bends, be sure to observe the minimum bend radius for the cable ( 4 x diameter). Bending tighter than this may not break the cable, but it changes the characteristic impedance of the cable, adding reflections and reducing maximum usable length and data rate.


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Exalted Wombat



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Folderol]
      #1025412 - 21/12/12 11:34 AM
Quote Folderol:

Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote Folderol:

Hmmm. I assumed he was going for the female-female faceplates that are basically just an adaptor.




Why would he complicate matters by doing that?



How is it more complicated?

My experience is that - price for price - crimp tools give a far more reliable result than punch-downs and are generally easier to use. Also as you're going to have to put plugs on the other ends, and for any other odds and sods, you save by only needing one tool. The sockets and wall plates themselves are easier to manage, and unless you are using really cheap tat there is virtually no price difference.




I'd always prefer a hard-wired connection to a plug and socket. I agree, punch-downs can be unreliable when done with a screwdriver blade! But the correct tool is inexpensive.


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Folderol



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Madman_Greg]
      #1025480 - 21/12/12 06:09 PM
Without getting too involved I must say I disagree with you both in practice.

Like for like, two joints are worse than one (unless you're smoking them). However these aren't like for like. A standard RJ45 plug makes a small and tightly controlled straight-line connection to the wires. The inline adapter also adds very little exposure to the wiring - the plugs are almost touching. Punch down and (especially) screw terminal fittings add a lot more metal, most of it at 90 deg to the wires, and the wires themselves are bent at odd angles.

Standard plugs have a full wrap around the wire, and grip the sheath as well. Most punchdowns I've seen make no attempt at all to contain the sheath and only grip the wires on two-and-a-bit sides. Ironically, the tool-less ones are slightly better.

In a perfect world you'll be installing these to a 50mm fitting with a nice clear running conduit, in the middle of a flat wall at eye level, with a strong light shining over your shoulder.

In reality it will be a 12mm back box, 6 inches from the floor and 3 inches from the darkest corner of the room (lit by a 60W bulb) with a scalding radiator 2 inches to the other side. The cable will be directly under the plaster and as you had to struggle to manage it at all, the wire to the fitting is significantly longer than you'd like. Therefore, the trick is to gently spiral it so that you can get it all behind the wallplate without crushing on kinking it. Only the trouble is, your poorly secured punchdown takes exception to this an pops one of the connections just after you reach the point where you can no longer see it. If you use my preferred method you coil up the cable before plugging it into the adapter then just ease it in as you align the wallplate the screws.

P.S.
You don't use one screwdriver. You use two - one either side of the tines

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ef37a



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Madman_Greg]
      #1025615 - 22/12/12 07:50 PM
Maybe I could shed some light of 10 years experience of the network sharp end?
I know jack about the software side, DCHP and all that swaddling but I was taught by and got to observe some of the best people in the industry re the hardware.

Will, sorry mate but I too think you are on the wrong track. AFAIK you cannot "home brew" CAT6 patch leads. Cat 5e needs to be done expertly if it is to pass the full bandwidth. The spacing inside a CAT6 plug is critical to get the full speed (same RJ45 outer but there is a "filler/spreader" part inside) In fact the company I was with gave up trying to hand build CAT 6 patch leads because of lack of consistant results and bought a special moulding machine.

You can of course make and use CAT5/(5e maybe!)cables for non-critical purposes, phones for example. Worth buying a bit of shielded cable since it makes an excellent 4pair audio tie line.

Punch down into KATT or Krone blocks is fine because that is how the system was designed and DECENT modules will have a loop on the label plastic to hook a small cable tie thru'. Mind you, you must take the twist as close to the block as possible to keep the performance up.

Tools are everything. Buy the special stripper to remove the outer without nicking the wires but if you buy a punchdown tool with "scissors" on it, take 'em off!
Dave.


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chris...
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: ef37a]
      #1025665 - 23/12/12 12:28 PM
I've made leads that do 1Gb/s ethernet just fine. That's plenty fast enough for home use, for the foreseeable.


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ef37a



Joined: 29/05/06
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: chris...]
      #1025667 - 23/12/12 12:42 PM
Quote chris...:

I've made leads that do 1Gb/s ethernet just fine. That's plenty fast enough for home use, for the foreseeable.




I am sure they are Chris but I doubt they would pass 1G a second.

Dave.


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chris...
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: ef37a]
      #1025668 - 23/12/12 12:53 PM
Quote ef37a:

I am sure they are Chris but I doubt they would pass 1G a second.



Ah - sorry for being unclear. I indeed get close to 1Gb/s.


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ef37a



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: chris...]
      #1025671 - 23/12/12 01:37 PM
Quote chris...:

Quote ef37a:

I am sure they are Chris but I doubt they would pass 1G a second.



Ah - sorry for being unclear. I indeed get close to 1Gb/s.




No! My apologies, well done.
Have a good one.

Dave.


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Martin WalkerModerator
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Madman_Greg]
      #1026589 - 01/01/13 03:34 PM
Quote Madman_Greg:

Looking at buying a roll of cable, RJ5 connectors and the crimping tool

The crimping tools seems to vary from under a tenner to £30+




I know it's a little late in the day, but just before Christmas I wanted to get Belinda's PC onto a wired network to replace a rather dodgy wireless connection (we live in a converted barn, and there are three rooms including at least one 2-foot-thick wall between my wireless router and the other PC).

I started on the same route as you, but rapidly came to the conclusion that for adding a single PC to the network a decent crimping tool escalated the cost quite a bit.

In the end I bought a pre-made 20-metre network cable, carefully threaded it through holes in various walls, and then just plugged the far end into the other PC after tidying up the excess.

Result - no joins needed, and a total cost of £7.99!


Martin

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YewTreeMagic


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Exalted Wombat



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Martin Walker]
      #1026607 - 01/01/13 04:50 PM
Quote Martin Walker:

In the end I bought a pre-made 20-metre network cable, carefully threaded it through holes in various walls, and then just plugged the far end into the other PC after tidying up the excess.




I have a similar link between two adjoining houses. But the size of holes required to get cable PLUS plug through the walls would have been unacceptable. I mounted wall boxes at each side and THEN used the cheapo extension cable. If I ever sell one house, it can easily be removed and the holes made good.


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damoore



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Madman_Greg]
      #1026614 - 01/01/13 05:07 PM
If you want to be able to place TV you might want to think about running satellite ready (low-loss) coax too.


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ef37a



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #1026622 - 01/01/13 05:37 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote Martin Walker:

In the end I bought a pre-made 20-metre network cable, carefully threaded it through holes in various walls, and then just plugged the far end into the other PC after tidying up the excess.




I have a similar link between two adjoining houses. But the size of holes required to get cable PLUS plug through the walls would have been unacceptable. I mounted wall boxes at each side and THEN used the cheapo extension cable. If I ever sell one house, it can easily be removed and the holes made good.


Do you mean you fitted an outlet module both sides of the wall and then used network (solid) cable, punched down in each to link them?

Dave.


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Exalted Wombat



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: ef37a]
      #1026652 - 01/01/13 09:25 PM
Quote ef37a:

Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote Martin Walker:

In the end I bought a pre-made 20-metre network cable, carefully threaded it through holes in various walls, and then just plugged the far end into the other PC after tidying up the excess.




I have a similar link between two adjoining houses. But the size of holes required to get cable PLUS plug through the walls would have been unacceptable. I mounted wall boxes at each side and THEN used the cheapo extension cable. If I ever sell one house, it can easily be removed and the holes made good.


Do you mean you fitted an outlet module both sides of the wall and then used network (solid) cable, punched down in each to link them?

Dave.




No, I just mounted a box with a socket each side of the wall.


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ef37a



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #1026660 - 01/01/13 10:49 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote ef37a:

Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote Martin Walker:

In the end I bought a pre-made 20-metre network cable, carefully threaded it through holes in various walls, and then just plugged the far end into the other PC after tidying up the excess.




I have a similar link between two adjoining houses. But the size of holes required to get cable PLUS plug through the walls would have been unacceptable. I mounted wall boxes at each side and THEN used the cheapo extension cable. If I ever sell one house, it can easily be removed and the holes made good.


Do you mean you fitted an outlet module both sides of the wall and then used network (solid) cable, punched down in each to link them?

Dave.




No, I just mounted a box with a socket each side of the wall.



Right, but what I am trying to get at is how exactly did you wire the boxes?

Dave (running out of room again. Will this be fixed one day?)


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Exalted Wombat



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: ef37a]
      #1026671 - 02/01/13 02:07 AM
Quote ef37a:

Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote ef37a:

Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote Martin Walker:

In the end I bought a pre-made 20-metre network cable, carefully threaded it through holes in various walls, and then just plugged the far end into the other PC after tidying up the excess.




I have a similar link between two adjoining houses. But the size of holes required to get cable PLUS plug through the walls would have been unacceptable. I mounted wall boxes at each side and THEN used the cheapo extension cable. If I ever sell one house, it can easily be removed and the holes made good.


Do you mean you fitted an outlet module both sides of the wall and then used network (solid) cable, punched down in each to link them?

Dave.




No, I just mounted a box with a socket each side of the wall.



Right, but what I am trying to get at is how exactly did you wire the boxes?

Dave (running out of room again. Will this be fixed one day?)




Not sure what you're getting at? With a suitable length of network cable, passing through the wall. Each box held a RJ45 keystone jack. I used a punch-down tool, though I think screw terminal versions are available.


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ef37a



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #1026677 - 02/01/13 06:20 AM
"Not sure what you're getting at? With a suitable length of network cable, passing through the wall. Each box held a RJ45 keystone jack. I used a punch-down tool, though I think screw terminal versions are available."

Right. That is what I asked originally but I obviously was not clear enough.

I also have double outlet boxes back to back from living room to bedroom "studio". 2 are CAT 5e UTP and 2 are CAT5e shielded and I made adaptors so I can feed mic or line room to room if need be

Dave.


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chris...
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Martin Walker]
      #1026785 - 02/01/13 11:58 PM
Quote Martin Walker:

just before Christmas I wanted to get Belinda's PC onto a wired network to replace a rather dodgy wireless connection (we live in a converted barn, and there are three rooms including at least one 2-foot-thick wall between my wireless router and the other PC).



For many people, ethernet-over-mains-wiring (aka "homeplug") is often more reliable than WiFi, in situations where it's tricky to install ethernet cabling.

The kit is now extremely cheap, and can be had with handy extras such as pass-thru power sockets or built-in WiFi access points (to get WiFi coverage around a big house, with a proper wired backbone, as opposed to WiFi repeaters / WDS, which is often slow / unreliable)

But if Gigabit speeds are wanted, ethernet cabling will need to be installed.


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Folderol



Joined: 15/11/08
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: chris...]
      #1026903 - 03/01/13 08:03 PM
Quote chris...:

Quote Martin Walker:

just before Christmas I wanted to get Belinda's PC onto a wired network to replace a rather dodgy wireless connection (we live in a converted barn, and there are three rooms including at least one 2-foot-thick wall between my wireless router and the other PC).



For many people, ethernet-over-mains-wiring (aka "homeplug") is often more reliable than WiFi, in situations where it's tricky to install ethernet cabling.

The kit is now extremely cheap, and can be had with handy extras such as pass-thru power sockets or built-in WiFi access points (to get WiFi coverage around a big house, with a proper wired backbone, as opposed to WiFi repeaters / WDS, which is often slow / unreliable)

But if Gigabit speeds are wanted, ethernet cabling will need to be installed.



Please do yourself and everyone else a favour and banish power-line kit unless there really is absolutely no alternative. I can only guess that many palms had to be greased for it to be allowed in the first place. It has a devastating effect on broad swathes of the radio spectrum.

BT have tried to suggest that only 'a minority of radio amateurs' are affected, and suggesting that they don't set up their own kit correctly. This is utter nonsense. The radio amateurs are rather like the mine canaries - if they are affected, then watch out. There is a problem developing. It has affected emergency services' communications and even light aircraft.

Normal Ethernet cable at the very least has balanced twisted pairs, quality stuff is shielded too. Proper wifi has carefully filtered controlled bandwidth. Power-line - just about anything goes.

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ef37a



Joined: 29/05/06
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Folderol]
      #1026920 - 03/01/13 10:01 PM
Did not know that Will, I shall be forever anti now.

I take it the baby monitors and intercoms are as bad? Is there any other radio kit we should be wary of? I was contemplating a wireless video sender.

The radiation from twisted pair must be pretty low since you can run data with analogue and DEC phones and not have any problem as far as I am aware?

Dave.


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Madman_Greg



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: ef37a]
      #1026926 - 04/01/13 12:29 AM

Thanks for all the info and suggestions

Been a bit delayed on the plumbing for the rennovations, then got some electrics to do after that. I need the water secure before I touch the electrics, as I have a few temporary runs of plastic pipe to keep the house heating and hot and cold running during the work. Then on to the network stuff, probably in about 2 weeks.

--------------------
Madman_Greg


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ef37a



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Madman_Greg]
      #1026936 - 04/01/13 06:23 AM
Quote Madman_Greg:


Thanks for all the info and suggestions

Been a bit delayed on the plumbing for the rennovations, then got some electrics to do after that. I need the water secure before I touch the electrics, as I have a few temporary runs of plastic pipe to keep the house heating and hot and cold running during the work. Then on to the network stuff, probably in about 2 weeks.




Don't forget to put in twice as many wires as you think you need AND a blue pull thru'rope!

Dave.


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chris...
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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: Folderol]
      #1026972 - 04/01/13 02:20 PM
Quote Folderol:

BT have tried to suggest that only 'a minority of radio amateurs' are affected, and suggesting that they don't set up their own kit correctly.



More likely it's some specific badly-made powerline ethernet kit. I do not believe all such kit is affected.

However, I agree, it's preferable to install an ethernet cable, if practical.


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James PerrettModerator



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Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: chris...]
      #1026993 - 04/01/13 05:13 PM
Quote chris...:


More likely it's some specific badly-made powerline ethernet kit. I do not believe all such kit is affected.





Seems to be a fairly widespread problem so I'd go along with Will's suggestion to avoid it. The stories from trusted sources were certainly bad enough for me to not go for powerline ethernet to connect my studio to the house. I'm using wifi which works well enough.

James.

--------------------
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Folderol



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Posts: 3613
Loc: Rochester, UK
Re: ethernet cabling question new [Re: ef37a]
      #1027024 - 04/01/13 08:04 PM
Quote ef37a:

Did not know that Will, I shall be forever anti now.

I take it the baby monitors and intercoms are as bad? Is there any other radio kit we should be wary of? I was contemplating a wireless video sender.

The radiation from twisted pair must be pretty low since you can run data with analogue and DEC phones and not have any problem as far as I am aware?

Dave.



Cheap baby monitors and intercoms have been known to cause a little interference, but even these aren't much of a problem, as the power level is really low, bandwidth only about 3kHz and carrier around 50kHz.

Powerline stuff is much higher powered, wide bandwidth (it has to be in order to get the data rate) and sits right in the middle of the short wave bands.

I'm not sure of the details, but there is newer, wider bandwidth, kit which seems to interfere with FM and DAB radio. I think it also does adaptive frequency hopping for best performance - which might be nice for the user, but means it will be even harder for anyone else to avoid.

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