I've just been reading that the length of a guitar cable can affect the tone of its pickups.
Is that true?
I know about the capacitance problems of longer cables but apparently it exists in guitar leads, where it can create resonance in certain frequency ranges, dependent on the length.

This guy mentions it at the end of his column:

Guitar lead and tone

I was also wondering if the high impedance output of a guitar's pickup would be very volatile and tone would be affected. I mean "hot" pickups do have a different tone to standard wound ones.

Thanks

People handwring about this endlessly but it really is no mystery or indeed much of a problem.

The passive electric guitar does not have a particularly high output impedance compare to the load most amplifiers will impose of 1megOhm. Generally the Zout is around 7kOhms with the pots fully advanced.
I have just measured the output RESISTANCE of a Tele with the volume pot at mechanical 1/2 way and that is 112kOhms. Attach 3mtrs of 200pf/mtr cable and yes, the turnover frequency is a somewhat alarming 2.7kHz. But that is the 3dB point, the merest whiff of boost on the amp will bring that back and guitar speakers are all but done and dusted by about 7kHz anyway! But why would you run the guitar at 1/2 way? Violining? Maybe, but in any case this treble loss can easily be compensated for with a "bleed" capacitor from pot "hot" to wiper. Only works perfectly for one cable capacitance I grant you but who needs more than one cable at a time?

Cables are going to have much less effect on "tone" than different amps and FAR less than different speakers!

Dave.

Try it and see. I suspect this is a theoretical difference rather than one that would upset a player in real life.

I have nice cables with Neutrik connectors on each end from 3m to 10m, and have never been conscious of a difference in sound with one cable or another. They get used in different contexts, though, so this is an impression, not a strict A/B comparison.

If A/B testing such a minor parameter, you will also have to consider how to eliminate variables such as: room; age of strings; amp and speaker, position of speaker in the room; background noise; resonances on other instruments nearby; what mood you are in, and how much earwax you have that day :-)

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Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

As the article says, capacitance for guitar leads is quoted per meter. So if you wish to reduce the capacitance in play here then use of a cable with a low quoted capacitance per meter makes sense as does keeping the lead as short as possible.

Of course, the importance of this is going to vary depending upon the ears and taste of the user. I'm actually going to disagree with a couple of things that Dave said here (a rare thing for me ). Yes, speakers, amps, guitars, strings etc all have a big influence on the sound but the cable is still very important IMO. I think it is better to start with as much high end coming through as possible then take that down if needed......

On my amp, you can certainly dial back in top end but you've already lost something...... With the LaGrange cables I bought (under 70pf per meter and I use as little as possible) there are some lovely ringing chimey warbley harmonics going on. These are maximised with the right guitar plus the right pickups, but cheaper cable certainly lessens this bit getting through. As it is actually 'lost' you can't just dial it back in. Yes, you can brighten it but you can't replace what you've lost. IMO far better to 'keep everything' then chuck away the bits you don't need at the time. As I love the complex harmonic content that the guitar is capable of producing I shun anything that gets rid of this. Of course, if my fingers moved a bit quicker then perhaps I wouldn't focus on this but for me personally it is important.

As to running the volume 1/2 way down, guilty as charged. Until I got a master volume only amp I didn't really appreciate the beauty of the pots on the guitar and left everything flat out. These days, it's common for me to roll off a fair bit. How pleasing this sounds varies a great deal depending on the guitar / pickups / how the tone controls are wired. But for me, it's not about violin effects - it's clean vs crunch

I am not suggesting that everyone should rush out and buy posh cables. However, trying one straight from guitar to amp with nowt else in the way is s worthwhile experiment to see if the difference it makes with YOUR rig and YOUR taste is worth it. For me, it is. I actually need to get hold of some better stuff to make patch leads as my pedal board is growing a great deal.... I'll probably be up to a couple of meters of cable on my pedal board by the time I'm done as the home-brew effects building has been busy of late

Yes Garry,
If you take the time to check things out there will be a difference in the filter effect of a lead and an amp tone control (different turnover frequency etc) but in the grand sceme of amps,cabs,rooms, drummers and lager, not a lot. (careful studio work, different game).

Beware the expensive cables though, some have higher capacitances than middle of the road stuff.

But if anyone is really bothered, a TL071 in a tin and a 300mm lead from guitar to tin solves the lead question for ever!

Forgot! Unless the first pedal on that board is "true" bypass you could have 10mtrs of lead in there and never know. Betcha!
Dave.

Edited by ef37a (03/08/12 10:09 AM)

Just to upset a few people. I always turn the pot down when playing live, maybe 60-70%. I like to have somwhere to go if I need a bit more at certain moments. Never been a problem. I know some players compress the hell out of their sound and stay at one volume all the time (maybe two, lead and rhythm) but that doesn't work for me, I don't even use a compressor. I control the dynamics with my playing as much as poss, but there are times when you want the guitar up a bit. Those times are for me to decide, not the sound man. So yes, I use the pot. It might sound "better" at full, but like I said, never been a problem.

As to compensating for the loss of top end caused from a bad lead with the amp eq. - doesn't work. Never the same, most amps eq seems to work on a lower freq. When you think about it anyway, that's not even a good principle - boost tops, boost noise. Much better to have them to start with if it's possible, which it is if you get a good lead.

Re cables, the new Line6 wireless bugs have an interesting setting for emulating cable length. (I presume it's essentially a low-pass filter.) Anyway, at least one reviewer commented that the Line6 bug with a "flat" setting sounded *better* than the cable because there wasn't the cable capacitance. Of course, whether this is just audiophoollery is unknown, but since typically wireless bugs are slated for sounding worse, this is an interesting angle.

Of course, as Dave says, a TL071 and a square inch of PCB mounted in the guitar would give the same improvement for a lot less money...

FWIW, my volume control is always at 100% or 0%. If I need extra oomph, I've got FX, and I can preset how much extra I need for the lead break or whatever in each song with each guitar pickup selection. For me, repeatability is king, and a volume control that's not on either endstop is not repeatable. (And no, a compressor doesn't get within sniffing distance of my guitar. Bass, sure, but on guitar I'll just use pick/fingers, guitar controls, EQ and amp models to get the smoothness or jagginess I'm after.)

I can tell you must use a lot of pre-set sounds, so I can see why you would need the same sound from the guitar (why not remove the pot altogether and have a switch - only joking I know you can use it for swells). For me I don't use presets, the shows are not always rehearsed, I might be on the other side of the stage from my amp etc. I like having the pot, although to be fair I only have have it in three postions, and one of those is off. This is a single coil guitar, for a humbucker guitar there is so much interaction between where the tone knob is set relative to the volume pot you would lose a lot of possible sounds to just leave it on full.

Glad I'm not the only one who is adverse to compressor pedals. For me I used to use one a bit - 1980's, but after realising all the live recordings I liked were old, and all the newer ones I didn't like I couldn't help but noticing how much I hated the compressed guitar sounds. Since then I don't have one in my live set up.

Dave is right about the the filter effects of the cable itself. However, what I think the article you linked to is referring to is slightly different.

In addition to the effects Dave described, everything between the pick-up and the first buffer (the amp, first buffered pedal, or the op-amp in a tin) modifies the transfer characteristics of the pick-up itself. In other words, the cable changes the sound of the pick-up itself as well as filtering the output of the pick-up.

There is another, more detailed, explanation here which includes some nice schematics and illustrations to show what is happening.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Yeah, lots of different preset sounds. We've got a soundman now, but when we didn't have a soundman it was imperative that each of us had the relative levels of our patches nailed down solid. And even now we'll often do smaller pub gigs without micing the guitars for the sake of simplicity.

Violining is something I do quite a lot, but always with a footpedal and never with the volume pot. So you may jest, but actually I'd happily use an on/off switch. Except that (a) it'd likely produce a "pop" when I switched it, and (b) it'd require me to spend time buggering about with an instrument which works perfectly well without the change - and of the two, finding some tinkering time is the more significant problem!

FCS! I only mentioned the 1/2 pot R point to illustrate that worse case output Z is not a disaster!

If an amp cannot boost 3dB or so at 3-5kHz without hissing like a traction engine, tis a duff amp!

So then don't use amp EQ. Use a bleed cap on the pot. Might take a bit of playing with values to get good compensation for a given cable but since it is a "passive boost" as it were, there is no noise penalty. Or just "activate" the feed to the cable.

The guitar/cable/amp interface is a complex one as Andy's link shows* and it has to be said, something rather poor that we have inherited. As the Irishman said when asked directions to the airport "I wouldn't start from here!" But the cable at least is the simplest part and simply does not deserve the hype and money spent on it.

*Not the one I thought it was going to be A. I shall look!

Dave.

Quote ef37a:

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As the Irishman said when asked directions to the airport "I wouldn't start from here!".

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very non-pc, but it's a good one I must admit

So with regards to D.I. your guitar, straight to your PC, it will show more high end frequencies, because there is no filtering from the live amp speakers, so your cable would give a tonal difference?

Thanks for info guys!

Quote ef37a:

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So then don't use amp EQ. Use a bleed cap on the pot. Might take a bit of playing with values to get good compensation for a given cable but since it is a "passive boost" as it were, there is no noise penalty. Or just "activate" the feed to the cable.

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A treble bleed cap on the volume pot can be a very useful tool. It can work well on it's own, but some users find it works better wired in parallel with a resistor across the input and output of the volume pot. As Dave rightly says, you need to experiment with values to find the right combination for you, but if you want a good starting point, try the values on the Peavey Jerry Donahue Omniac model. Here's the schematic to help you see what's going on.



Oh, and those extra resistors and capacitors attached to the 5 way 4 pole switch make a lot more sense if you read the link in my earlier post.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

I'm curious to know if any real musicians have tried

Creation Audio Labs Redeemer

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Daniel Davis
Edinburgh Recording Studio Windmill Sound

Quote Daniel Davis:

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I'm curious to know if any real musicians have tried

Creation Audio Labs Redeemer

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They claim an impressive specification, tho' they don't say at what output level and loading it achieves 0.0005% THD!
Tempted to risk 50bucks and cut one open.

Dave.

hi all,

few people on this forum love the arcana of circuit math more than i but i'd respectfully suggest this is one of the sillier debates we've had for a while ;-)

here's why: all that we know when we plug in our gtrs, FX, amps, etc is the sounds we get. if we're happy with our sounds, then the lesson to be drawn here (if there is one) is to mark the cables we like so that we can use them again in the future. maybe, just maybe, if you have a LOT of time on your hands, you can experiment with different cable lengths, impedances, etc and see which cables in your kit give you the tone(s) you like the most.

that said, you're looking at a truly minimal effect (which i think was dave's point) which will vary by gtr (i own about twenty, and use maybe 6 of them interchangeably, some are rails, some of humbuckers, some are Z pups, etc), signal path, and FX settings. personally, i'd suggest your time is better spent learning new chord voicings, running scales, and playing with your dog a/o kids, as appropriate.

but if you like science experiments, pop for an oscilloscope and plot the results. remember, neatness counts =:-O

cheers,

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

Agreed Dubbmann.
There was no one pickier about his "tone" than my boss and he could hear incredibly small "problem" sounds in the gale produced by a 100watter/4x12. He invariably used his own beatup humbucked Strat for tests and demos but would pickup any handy lead because he could get his sound from guitar and amplifier adjustments.

But do not despise the number chrunchers and scope starers Dubbs! It is one thing to make a bloody good amp, the trick is to make 10,000 more just as bloody good and to do that you need QC and that takes measurements.

Dave.

Oh yes Dubbman, I agree that we are looking at generally very marginal effects here. But as this is the Guitar Technology forum I don't think it is a silly conversation to be having. And that's because, firstly, while some of the effects are marginal, they are real. And, secondly, it has a real bearing on some other questions that are regularly asked here on the forums.

Neither Dave or myself are advocating a painting by numbers approach here. I have repeatedly gone on record saying that I am technology agnostic and advise people to make decisions based on what things sound like for them and to focus on things like practice and technique rather than looking for magical improvements by buying new gear. And while Dave does have a strong interest in the technology it is clear from his many posts that his main focus is how things sound.

And there is nothing wrong with understanding what is happening, and why, so long as you keep things in perspective and resist the temptation to put the cart before the horse.

So, if you are really concerned about some minor treble loss from a long cable, you can easily compensate at the amp, or if you insist on being fussy you can run a short cable to a buffered pedal and from there to the amp. Simple, easy, and pragmatic. It works, and what we would recommend to anyone who thought they had a problem with treble loss through their cable.

However, whilst it might not seem obvious, the issue of the transfer characteristics of the pick-up changing depending on the circuit it is attached to IS significant and relevant to one of the more common posts made here. And that is...

'What replacement pick-ups would you recommend?'

Once you get beyond budget pick-ups and into Seymour Duncan, DiMarzio, and boutique maker territory, you are looking at a large range of expensive pick-ups that in truth differ very little from each other. The bulk of the market is in variations on a theme of PAF humbuckers, 50's Tele, and 50s/60s Strat. The original pick-ups they are modelled on had a lot of variation, and the modern replacements are all closely copied from or loosely derived from those originals. The differences aren't that great, and they all produce pick-ups with subtly different transfer characteristics.

People take perfectly good, quality, pick-ups out of guitars and spend £200/£300 to replace them with equally good quality pick-ups that in truth are not that different from those they removed. They could often get the same change in transfer characteristics by keeping the original pick-ups and changing the value of a pot or capacitor, by adding a resistor and/or capacitor, or other cheap tweaks. And as pots have a tolerance of +/-20% swapping out a pot for one of the same notional value could make quite a change. A 250k pot could be anything from 200k to 300k.

Over the years I've fitted replacement pick-ups for a lot of customers. And it's quite common for them to ask me to replace the pots, switches, and caps too. 'Might as well take the chance to replace them while you are at it' is the usual reasoning. And when the customer collected the guitar and was really happy with the sound, hand on heart I couldn't say whether it was due to the new pick-ups, the replacement wiring, or just because it wasn't better or worse just a little different.

So yes... plug guitar into amp, twiddle knobs until you get the best sound you can, and get down to playing. That's always been my position. But if you get a nagging feeling that your sound could be better, or a change would refresh your playing, replacing your pick-ups could be a lot more expensive and no more effective than swapping/adding a few cheap components.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Quote dubbmann:

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hi all,


here's why: all that we know when we plug in our gtrs, FX, amps, etc is the sounds we get. if we're happy with our sounds, then the lesson to be drawn here (if there is one) is to mark the cables we like so that we can use them again in the future.......

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Mmm! Well, I think you're talking about two different people, but I get your point. If what you're saying is true then Hendrix would never have had anyone to turn to and we never would have heard his creativity. Techs need to experiment, to know and dig deep to create original things no matter how silly they are.
You know all those boffins do the hard work for us.

Btw, Sorry for the silly question.

Quote zenguitar:

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So, if you are really concerned about some minor treble loss from a long cable, you can easily compensate at the amp, or if you insist on being fussy you can run a short cable to a buffered pedal and from there to the amp. Simple, easy, and pragmatic. It works, and what we would recommend to anyone who thought they had a problem with treble loss through their cable.


So yes... plug guitar into amp, twiddle knobs until you get the best sound you can, and get down to playing. That's always been my position. But if you get a nagging feeling that your sound could be better, or a change would refresh your playing, replacing your pick-ups could be a lot more expensive and no more effective than swapping/adding a few cheap components.

Andy

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Yes Andy! When I first bought an electric guitar I just plugged it into the amp without a D.I.
I was classically trained and learnt all the mechanics of playing but had to learn the hard way, that why I ask questions (stupid ones sometimes) .

You guys are a fountain of knowledge and the more you say the better for people like me.

I just played an A chord followed by an A#, is sounded amazing!! I didn't even look at the cable!

But wait, we haven't even discussed what happens to the Z at resonance in parallel and series circuits!

To the OP: if you're really concerned about a guitar cable's effect on your tone, consider an "active" pickup setup (get "activated"!, or install an op amp buffer or use a short cable into a buffer pedal as has already been suggested).

Fwiw, iirc EMG specify the tech data in their "passive" p/u datasheets referenced to a certain guitar cable length (iirc, 6m) as well as volume and tone pot values, etc., but the specs given in their "active" (buffered) p/u datasheets do not (as in, "need not") include any such reference to cable length as the effect on tone is not deemed significant for an active pickup.

Darn that Michael Faraday anyway!

I agree with Zen regarding the pickup swaps - the potential to make a guitar sound 'different' is absolutely there but it can be 'different better' or 'different worse'.

The last couple of pickup swaps I've done, I decided to do very short clips of 'before vs after' as the ear memory can let you down. The first swap I did in a Burny yielded very little difference and in hindsite was not value for money.....

I then swapped pickups in a Godin, but this time I phoned up Bulldog pickups. The big difference here was that I told him all about the guitar, all about the amp and exactly what I was trying to achieve. He then custom wound them with the promise that, if they weren't right, I could send them back for him to do them again!

Again, I did before and after clips. This time, the difference was huge and was exactly in the direction I wanted. They have much more top end than those that came out and this is put down to scatter winding by the manufactureres. From a theory point of view I can see this being a reasonable explanation but whatever it is I'm happy with them and have no regrets on the swap.

Could I have got the same tone with an off the shelf? Maybe. What helped here was the chap who does it for a living making building decisions based on my wishes as opposed to me looking at a chart and taking pot luck.