My impression is that the capacitance of the cable is the only factor that affects tone, or at last that was my impression after watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMfp73Z_sNk .
I've always have pretty average cables.
My question: is there a tonal reason to use a guitar cable to tailor your sound, when you could just as well use the tone knob on your guitar, amp, or eq pedal to get a similar result?

My understanding on this is that the overall 'system' capacitance is made by pickups + tone controls + wiring harness + cable + everything the signal 'sees' until it gets to a buffer or the high impedance amp input.

IMO (I'm a keen amateur as opposed to any kind of expert so keep that in mind ) I think it's best to use a cable with as lower capacitance as possible..... Once you've added up the capacitance caused by all those factors above you'll have the 'best it can do' as far as letting through some of the higher frequencies. If you want to take some of those frequencies out then you can roll back a tone pot / take an eq slider down. Putting back what has been thrown away isn't anywhere near as simple. I changed to some Klotz LaGrange cables a couple of years back and the improvement in the amount of more interesting harmonics coming through was well worth the modest outlay for my taste.

Of course, if you love the sound of your guitars with the tone controls wound down to some extent and always do so then I suppose a higher capacitance cable may make you happy as all of this stuff is very much a case of 'if you like it then it's right' . Personally, I love the ringy, chiming harmonic content that a decent cable can let through and prefer to preserve it. Of course, you hear less of that if you're playing at speed but as I can't widdle and diddle to save my life I like to keep as much complexity in the actual tone as possible to detract the listener's ear from the brutal simplicity of my playing

Edited by Gary_W (12/09/12 07:49 AM)

I suggest you look up

http://www.creationaudiolabs.com/redeemer

And if anyone from creation audio labs is reading please do something to make this page more findable. It took me ages to find because I couldn't remember its name, and it doen't appear on google with any search terms I could think of.

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Daniel Davis
Edinburgh Recording Studio Windmill Sound

Quote Gary_W:

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My understanding on this is that the overall 'system' capacitance is made by pickups + tone controls + wiring harness + cable + everything the signal 'sees' until it gets to a buffer or the high impedance amp input.

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Exactly - its a complete electrical circuit; the important aspect being the "reactance" which is the interaction of inductance, capacitance and resistance. The interesting bit is that inductance & capacitance are freq dependent .i.e. different notes, different responses.

So much for the electrical theory - Bottomline - how much of the difference can you hear? IMHO get the best mechanically sound cables, those that can take a 1000 live shows, without breaking; as for so-called favourable reactance influence, leave that for the marketing department.

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C.LYDE
http://soundcloud.com/c-lyde

Quote Daniel Davis:

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I suggest you look up

http://www.creationaudiolabs.com/redeemer

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I've never quite got the point of these for the following reasons:-

1. They cost $49 which is more than a decent cable costs
2. You have to fit one in each guitar you have which adds time, hassle and possible extra expense
3. A decent cable going straight into an amp gives no problems with tone loss
4. A decent cable going into a decent buffered effects pedal stops the problem
5. If you have a wah or a vintage style fuzz pedal, it'll sound different with a buffer before it..... Both effects rely on loading down your guitars pickup for part of their sound / charm. If you stick a buffer between the guitar and one of these pedals then you stop that interaction and the whole thing risks sounding very toppy and harsh. So if you use vintage fx and put the buffer 'at the guitar end' then you'll alter their sound and (IMO) not in a good way!

So for my money, it's decent cable into vintage fx followed by something with a really good buffer on it. Although I'm happy to be put straight on any of the above of course

And as for the 1000 live shows comment - a good point well made but if I used that criteria as my main buying point then the cable would last me till I was about 300 years old as I don't get out much in that way

Edited by Gary_W (12/09/12 12:52 PM)

It is indeed just the different capacitances of various types and lengths of cables that change the sound of a passive guitar but it is not quite as simple as a low pass filter. With the guitar V pot at max the pups and cable will form a resonant circuit and produce a hump in the response anywhere from ~2kH to 6/7kHz (there is an excellent SPICE model of this about but I am jiggered if I can find it!).Thus you can have the apparent paradox of a HIGHER capacitance leading to a brighter sound because that hump has been pushed down into the ears and speakers more sensitive region (most gitspeakers are done and dusted by 5-6kHz).

Buffers: You don't need one in every guitar! A TL071 and PP3 will go into a very small tin* and can be clipped to strap. About 500mm of lead will have squat capacitance and in anycase will be a "constant". The chip will drive any sensible amount of cable with no top loss at all. And if "violining" dims things, fit a bleed capacitor.

*Another one for the DIY special???
Dave.

I prefer not to mod guitars, but the videos do demonstrate exactly what the OP was about, and the Redeemer is clearly one device that makes cable quality if not irrelivent, certainly much less of an issue. Being a recording dude rather than live dude I prefer good and short cables, but if you must use a vintage strat AND a 50ft cable, it might be a good option.

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Daniel Davis
Edinburgh Recording Studio Windmill Sound

Quote Daniel Davis:

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I prefer not to mod guitars, but the videos do demonstrate exactly what the OP was about, and the Redeemer is clearly one device that makes cable quality if not irrelivent, certainly much less of an issue. Being a recording dude rather than live dude I prefer good and short cables, but if you must use a vintage strat AND a 50ft cable, it might be a good option.

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So, the "StratStrap Box" should suite you fine? One other (well two if you like) advantage of a "self buffered" guitar is that you can plug it straight into a computer for silent practice on cans or, should the amp blow, straight into a PA and over the aforementioned 50ft cable.
Re guitar cables.I was told last week that if you use balanced mic cable and tie the "black" wire to earth each end it stops the slight rustle/crackle you often get with many single core cables.

Dave.

Yes, but you still get the wah and fuzz issue I was alluding to above whether it's in a tin or the guitar.... Of course, if you don't use either then it's a good idea

Quote Gary_W:

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Yes, but you still get the wah and fuzz issue I was alluding to above whether it's in a tin or the guitar.... Of course, if you don't use either then it's a good idea

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Are you reading another forum in parallel with this one? I am and this point has already been raised.
My response? Fit the buffer with a "true bypass" switch (or it would probably work just as well to insert about 20-50k in series?). Then, pedals that are that source Z fussy were bad original designs so why compromise everything for a couple of arcane examples? Which BTW will be "guitar fussy" as well by definition!

Dave.

Which thread / where? I'm not currently reading another thread about this subject but I have raised the point on here before about vintage fuzz / wah not liking buffers before them. My thoughts on this were based on reading about the subject after direct experience of 'why do my fuzz and wah sound awful on my board but great when I get rid of everything else?'.

Yes, you could build a buffer and fit a bypass switch. But for people that have a fuzz or wah followed at some point in their signal chain with a decent buffer (which one of their effects will probably have anyway) then a decent cable is a perfectly good solution IMO and a lot less hassle Of course, if all you fx are true bypass then again there is reason to get busy with the soldering iron.

Oh? Ok!
Just that someone is countering my arguments "knock for knock" with you!

There is no such thing IMO as "decent" cable except in the sense of shield integrity and mechanical properties.
This thread started with the question "is capacitance all there is to guitar cable" and the answer is still yes!

If you don't have a buffer early on in the FX chain and use "passive" bypass (I hate the term "true" it endows the concept with a cache it does not deserve.) adding progessively more wire will rob you of treble. This is a simple, demonstrable, physical fact.

That SPICE link btw was by Terry Downs and seems to be inaccessable now.

Dave.

Hi Dave,

Honestly not me - I enjoy a good debate but I'd not do so on two seperate forums and not let on that I was the same chap.... I don't do mind games!

Quote ef37a:

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If you don't have a buffer early on in the FX chain and use "passive" bypass (I hate the term "true" it endows the concept with a cache it does not deserve.) adding progessively more wire will rob you of treble. This is a simple, demonstrable, physical fact.

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I COMPLETELY agree with this. My only caveat is if you use a buffer first in line / at the guitar end then some vintage effects don't like it up 'em. If your rig uses such effects, it may be worth a compromise. This compromise may be using low cap cables till you get to a buffer OR using a buffer up front and a switching system to get rid of it if you use the vintage effects OR A.N. Other solution. Which may include not worrying about it

I thought I'd do a few little clips to see what effect buffer position has in MY rig. The resulting 1.5 minute wav file is here, one clip playing after the other

http://soundcloud.com/gary_w/5-clips-for-buffered-vs-true

Please excuse the playing - there are a lot of pros on this board and as you'll hear I'm not one of them

Three of the clips use a buffer 'somewhere'.... Either

'at the guitar end'

or

'after a 3m cable but before vintage fx'

or

'After a 3m cable and 2 vintage effects in true bypass mode'

There are also a couple of clips with no buffer at all (one is just the cable, the other is the cable plus the true bypassed effects).

If you want full details of exactly how the clips were done, they are provided in the blurb on Soundcloud under the clip.

All sound different so it certainly demonstrates that buffers make a difference.... the question is 'which of these do I like? Which don't I like? What compromises does this mean (if any) for my rig?.

The clips were stuttering but I wouldn't be able to hear HF nuances anyway!

The "other guy" was also banging on about "vintage" pedals not liking a low Z feed.

I am not so sure tho' that it is anything to do with cables? IIRC these rough ass designs used a shunt feedback circuit that meant the gain characteristics were at the mercy of the driving impedance? (bloody poor way to design an "amplifier" but there you go!).You might find that you CAN use a buffer, just stick 20-50k in series with the input! (with a shorting switch).

Why should design be hampered by old, badly designed devices? Let us move on to best practice.

Dave.

I can't explain the stuttering, Dave - I've just checked on a PC and an iPad here and all working fine.

Anyway. Are you honestly suggesting that folks with vintage effects that they love should ditch them because they don't play nicely with your proposal of a buffer in a tin at the guitar end? Just because you don't like the old-fashioned design?

To clarify, I am not claiming that the cable is all-important to vintage effects. I am claiming that certain vintage effects will change dramatically if you put a buffer in front of them because they are not expecting it...... Some folks may actually LIKE what the buffer does to vintage pedals. I don't and I'm not alone. I have 3 effects that hate a buffer in front, the rest of my effects do not seem to care.....

Soooooo...... If you have such effects and do not wish to replace them, it makes sense to minimise the capacitance. This means low capacitance cables and realising that every box / patch lead you add BEFORE the buffer will make things worse so get it buffered ASAP without killing your fussy pedals.

The 5 clips I did earlier were enough for me personally to know that for my ears and my taste, this is a dead simple way of getting results that I like..... As the alternatives to this are either additional switching complexity OR ditching effects that I love then this is my chosen path looking at the facts as I see them.

"Anyway. Are you honestly suggesting that folks with vintage effects that they love should ditch them because they don't play nicely with your proposal of a buffer in a tin at the guitar end? Just because you don't like the old-fashioned design?"

No. I am saying that the development of better products should not be constrained simply because one two devices that some people like, do not play well with them. It is likely that if this shortcoming had been pointed out to the original designers of the FX (assuming that is that they had a modicum of electronics knowledge and weren't just very lucky circuit bending monkeys!)they might have fitted an emitter follower at the front and one at the arse end and altered the circuit to suit! Mind you, I will admit that "back then" transistors were expensive and bloody noisy!

In any event, what is the problem? The buffer can simply be bypassed by one of those so beloved "true" bypass circuits.

I still maintain it is the low source resistance that the old pedals don't like and nothing to do with cable capacitance.

Dave.

Nobody is constraining developing anything.... The vast majority of effects that have been released over the last few years don't care a jot about buffers. It's just certain 'genuine' old effects and those that are directly copying / doing slight mods on vintage designs. The reasons people do this is because they like the way they sound / behave / like the percieved mojo / whatever. Whatever it is, if you choose to use such devices as a human with free will you need to accept that they don't play nice with BUFFERS. Not cable. BUFFERS.

Once again, I will say that I don't think it's the cable that causes the problems with buffers and vintage effects. I will copy and paste what I put just 2 posts above:-

To clarify, I am not claiming that the cable is all-important to vintage effects. I am claiming that certain vintage effects will change dramatically if you put a buffer in front of them because they are not expecting it...... Some folks may actually LIKE what the buffer does to vintage pedals. I don't and I'm not alone. I have 3 effects that hate a buffer in front, the rest of my effects do not seem to care.....

I accept that you can put a true bypassed buffer 'somewhere' that you can engage / disengage as you see fit. But when it's bypassed, that's another 120 pF of capacitance put there with no need if you have a buffer just after the vintage stuff..... The judgement call of hassle to benefit here is, of course, personal.

As a matter of interest, does anyone have a drawing on one of these input sensitive units. I'd be interested to see what was done, and maybe work out how it could be mitigated.

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Sure - first off is a MadBean Zombii. This is a clone of a ZVex Fuzz Factory which costs around £180 IIRC or a fiver to build plus the cost of the box and the switch.....

http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Zombii/docs/Zombii_ver.5.pdf

One possible reason for the fame of this particular unit is that it's the fuzz used on Muse's 'Plug In Baby'.

It's more or less a fuzz face circuit with a few little mods. The mods affect the stability of it (for starters!). It's an unusual beast in terms of the sound quality...... There are some effects where you play with it and think 'I can't get a bad sound out of this thing.....'. The Fuzz Factory is the polar opposite of this - sounds fab in the right positions, sounds weird but interesting in some positions and sounds like a pile of poo in others. All IMHO of course, what with this perception of sound stuff being highly subjective! You can make it sound just like a fuzz face (cos in certain pot positions it pretty much is a fuzz face IIUIC). Get it wrong (or right if you're Matt Belamy) and it just goes into squeaky squeals and oscillation.

Hates a buffer up front......

Moving on to silicone fuzz, we have http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/SnackShack/docs/SnackShack.pdf which is based on a D*A*M Meathead. It's a variant on the Coloursound fuzz.... V. expensive. I've only heard my home brew version. It sounds wonderful in the right context and the right place. Again, a buffer turns it very harsh.

http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/SnackShack/docs/SnackShack.pdf
Then we have a typical vintage wah pedal...... A lot of mods sold to folks on t'Internet seem to be based on taking a wah back to Clyde McCoy specs. Doing so may or may not interest you but a lot of folks make a lot of money out of the associated mojo

http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/mccoy.phpn we

My wah is a Whipple wah..... Basically, a Clyde McCoy spec wah with a scatter wound inductor. Is it the best wah going? Not sure. What I do know is that I bought a £30 cheapo Vox off eBay then modified it with £50 worth of parts. It sounds like a far more expensive pedal now and makes me happy so that'll do. Unless you shove a buffer in front of it when it suddenly sounds like a £4.50 wah pedal.

Just a bit of an aside here. I thought I had read somewhere (probably in Guitar Player 15 years ago) that Jimi Hendrix would use the longest cable he could find because he liked the high frequency roll off. (As discussed at some length earlier, that would be driving unbuffered pedals or straight to his amp.) I guess my only point is that, yes, you can use the cable to affect tone in creative ways just like any component in the circuit.

Quote darrylonguitar:

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Just a bit of an aside here. I thought I had read somewhere (probably in Guitar Player 15 years ago) that Jimi Hendrix would use the longest cable he could find because he liked the high frequency roll off. (As discussed at some length earlier, that would be driving unbuffered pedals or straight to his amp.) I guess my only point is that, yes, you can use the cable to affect tone in creative ways just like any component in the circuit.

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Had he had even a smattering of electronics nonce he could have put 1nF or three in a tin and saved himself some money and snake wrestling!

Dave.

Quote ef37a:

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Had [Jimi Hendrix] had even a smattering of electronics nonce he could have put 1nF or three in a tin and saved himself some money and snake wrestling!

Dave.

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It's not often you come across people who wish Jimi H had spent less time playing guitar and more on the intricacies of capacitance

Quote xFasterMikeyH:

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Quote ef37a:

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Had [Jimi Hendrix] had even a smattering of electronics nonce he could have put 1nF or three in a tin and saved himself some money and snake wrestling!

Dave.

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It's not often you come across people who wish Jimi H had spent less time playing guitar and more on the intricacies of capacitance

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Hey! I have the greatest respect for James H! He was apparently very multihanded, i.e. not limited to guitar.(Bst'd turning that piano around tho!)

Technical knowledge and muscianship are not exclusive of one another. Just OTTMH, Les Paul and the Queen boys.

Note too that a "capacitor" alone can do nothing. A "filter" must have at least 3 components, source Z, load Z and the reactive part, C or L (of course source and load are often reactive themselves. Nobody said this was easy!). GOOD equipment makers strive to make source Z as low and non-reactive as possible.

And you cannot have "art" without "technology".

Dave.

Quote ef37a:

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Quote darrylonguitar:

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Just a bit of an aside here. I thought I had read somewhere (probably in Guitar Player 15 years ago) that Jimi Hendrix would use the longest cable he could find because he liked the high frequency roll off. (As discussed at some length earlier, that would be driving unbuffered pedals or straight to his amp.) I guess my only point is that, yes, you can use the cable to affect tone in creative ways just like any component in the circuit.

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Had he had even a smattering of electronics nonce he could have put 1nF or three in a tin and saved himself some money and snake wrestling!

Dave.

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Imagine the eBay trade in 'vintage' capacitors if he had! Not to mention needing to use the right kind of tin

That reminds me of all those Oxo tins and bakelite knobs hoarded by my grandfather that I later disposed of

He even had a couple of OC71 germanium transistors from Henry's Radio - if only I'd had more storage space


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Quote Martin Walker:

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That reminds me of all those Oxo tins and bakelite knobs hoarded by my grandfather that I later disposed of

He even had a couple of OC71 germanium transistors from Henry's Radio - if only I'd had more storage space


Martin

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Heh! I "siliconized" an old Audix PA mixer some years ago. The Germanium (AC107's?)transistors were on long leads and in a teensy "toolclip" mounted on the PCB with an 8BA nut and bolt!

I just fitted BC184Ls, changed the bias and got another 15dB or so lower noise. The crap 'sistors went in the bin. I could probably get a fiver each for them from the vintage pedal builders now!

Dave.

Good lord. What a sorry mess these are!

Ironically I've repaired more of these sort of things than I care to remember, but it was just broken jacks, worn pots etc. and for my own playing I was only interested in a simple fuzz (which I built myself) so I never bothered to investigate further.

The good news about the zombii and the snackshack is that you have no worries about cable capacitance. Their input impedance is so low (approx 5k and zero respectively) the guitar pups are current driving them. This of course means that their performance will vary wildly depending on the pups, their configuration and the setting of the selector switch, volume and tone controls.

The fuzz central is a little better at 68k (both this and snackshack use 100% current NFB).

Being current driven, putting a low Z buffer before all of these would result in an input overload with little more than a sniff of signal, hence the harshness, a bit less so with the fuzz central.

A series resistor would help, but the real problem is that you've no idea how the pups behave when current driving. With their inductive nature you are likely to get all sorts of humps and dips in the response, and that my friends is where much of the mojo is going to be!

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)