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DaveA



Joined: 11/02/05
Posts: 83
Loc: Macclesfield, Cheshire
Cleaning a guitar
      #720071 - 25/03/09 12:49 AM

Hi,

I've got an old bass that could do with a good clean, especially the body. The finsh is very dull. Tried using guitar polish but it just doesn't work. I think it needs something that will get rid of the muck rather than just spread it around. Any ideas?

It may be a problem with the lacquer - years ago my wife polished it with Pledge...

Cheers

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Stan



Joined: 17/01/05
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Loc: Dublin
Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #720075 - 25/03/09 01:20 AM

When i want to remove greasy stuff i use tissues. Tissues i find lift the muck, where as cloths often spreads it around. Then i buff with a duster cloth.
Although, from your post, it sounds like the body might need to be refinished.
i like to use tissues on the fingerboard as well. i never use wire wool.

Edited by Stan (25/03/09 01:22 AM)


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Music Wolf



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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #720090 - 25/03/09 06:31 AM

I use Planet Waves 'Restore' cleaning cream (it's like T-Cut, a mild abrasive). Gets through years of grime.

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DaveA



Joined: 11/02/05
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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #720151 - 25/03/09 11:05 AM

Hi,

Thanks for the quick reply guys! I would not get the body refinished because it would reduce the value of it. Ordered the Planet Waves pack today - seems like just what I need.

Ta

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grab



Joined: 08/07/07
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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #720190 - 25/03/09 12:52 PM

Soap flakes dissolved in a bit of warm water work nicely at removing crud. (I seem to remember it was Zen who first mentioned this.)

Top tip: Mix up the soap flakes with a very small amount of water (like a few teaspoons-worth) until they're properly dissolved, then dilute it further. Otherwise you just get undissolved soap flakes floating around in a bowl of not-very-soapy water. Same principle as mixing flour and water (for those who do cooking).


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zenguitarModerator
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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: grab]
      #720429 - 26/03/09 01:57 AM

Quote grab:

Soap flakes dissolved in a bit of warm water work nicely at removing crud. (I seem to remember it was Zen who first mentioned this.)




Indeed, I have mentioned something along those lines in the past. But as this is a new thread I ought to put it into it's original context.

RULE NUMBER ONE.

Never, and I mean NEVER, confuse cleaning a guitar with polishing a guitar or restoring a finish. It's easy to get lazy with language and end up getting confused and possibly making mistakes.

Cleaning means removing all the muck, dirt, grease and old polish to get you back to the original paint. And yes, whatever name we use... polyester, acrylic, lacquer, cellulose, French Polish, emulsion... it's all paint.

Soapy water will remove most of the the grime from your guitar. HOWEVER, you must take care with soapy water. It has a habit of soaking into any exposed wood and is very good at working into cracks in the finish. Capillary action can draw water into a fine crack with ease. The wood underneath can, and will, swell. And over time the crack will get bigger. Capillary action can also draw water between the wood and the finish making them separate over time.

So, if you are using soapy water to clean a guitar be patient. Don't get lots of water on the guitar. Use a damp cloth only, not a dripping wet one. Work in small areas and wipe it dry as you go. Avoid any cracks or splits in the finish, including screw holes. Work around those areas very carefully using cotton buds. Literally wipe around with the cotton bud and then wipe dry with kitchen roll. Resist the temptation to soak dirty areas to get all the dirt in one hit. Wipe with the damp cloth and dry the area several times if required.

Unless absolutely necessary avoid solvents. Cellulose and French Polish are especially vulnerable, but even some polyester and acrylic finishes can be dulled by them. The sticky residue from old stickers, gaffa tape or sellotape might need a solvent to remove. Use the pads of your fingers to remove as much as possible. Resist the temptation to use your fingernails or scrapers because they can scratch or groove the finish. The good news with solvents is that they evaporate quickly. If you work under an electric lamp, apply the solvent very sparingly with a cotton bud, and quickly clean up with kitchen roll you are generally pretty safe. There are proprietary solvent cleaners for removing sticky residues, but you need to check the ingredients and instructions carefully. If you must use a solvent, I would recommend good, old fashioned, petrol lighter fluid. Again, if there is a lot of residue to remove it is best to remove it in stages rather than soaking it. Finally, if you have had to use a solvent, leave it for a good 24 hours before you attempt any restoration or polishing. You want to to ensure that any solvent that has got into the finish has fully evaporated. If you apply a coat of polish over fresh solvent you risk trapping the vapours so they can't escape and there is the possibility that they can cause damage.

My preferred cleaner is White Spirit. Simply because it is what is generally used to clean wood before it is finished and between coats. If it is good enough for the guys who made your guitar and applied the original finish, it's good enough for me. But again, if there is any damage to the finish it is best to damped a cloth/kitchen roll with the White Spirit to apply it and to make sure you wipe it off quickly.

OK, now your guitar is clean.

POLISHING

Polishing is a NASTY word. Because it can mean two completely different things which can cause a lot of confusion. One meaning is to create or restore the original shine that is the final part of finishing the paint/lacquer. As we are talking about cleaning guitars, not making new ones, I call that Restoring the finish to avoid confusion. The most important thing to remember about restoring a finish is that you use abrasives. Whether you use T-Cut, Brasso/Silvo (similar to T-Cut but a finer grade of cut - Silvo is more aggressive than Brasso because silver is a harder metal), Jewellers Rouge, Autosol paste, or Colgate tooth powder (yes, that is an abrasive too. I was taught the trick by an Indian Jeweller when I visited there and brought a couple of large tins back with me), they are all abrasives and they work by removing the finish. Every time time you use them, you are literally wearing the finish away.

That newer than new, flawless, gleaming look can get addictive. But every time you polish the scratches out you are taking 1/10th of a mm off the finish. And it is irreversible. Learn to love your scratches and the character they add to your pride and joy.

Polishing your guitar, just like polishing your car, is putting a nice, shiny, protective coat on the finish. And just like polishing your car, you make sure it's clean first. Applying a polish is NOT cleaning. If you carefully wipe down your guitar with a clean cloth and then apply a polish, all you are doing is smearing a layer of grease and dirt evenly across it and then sealing it in place with the polish. I have seen guitars literally sweating and covered in condensation when they spent 10 minutes in sunlight solely because they had been wiped down and polished regularly without being cleaned 1st.

Personally, I'm not too bothered about polishing my guitars. I prefer to wipe my hands before and after playing, and then wipe the guitar clean with a clean duster. And when I change the strings I take the chance to give it a proper clean with White Spirits.

OK, sorry to write such a long essay on such a simple seeming topic. But a little extra understanding goes a long way and helps prevent long term damage, especially where abrasives are concerned.

Andy

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DaveA



Joined: 11/02/05
Posts: 83
Loc: Macclesfield, Cheshire
Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #720509 - 26/03/09 10:36 AM

Cheers Andy,

A brilliant post. Certainly learned a lot from that.

Thanks.

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Dan Bo



Joined: 20/07/07
Posts: 263
Loc: Oxford
Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #720513 - 26/03/09 10:41 AM

Fantastic post Andy,
Very informative and concise, i was riveted.
Any chance of a fret board and fret dressing/crowning myth buster type one?...or is that a bit cheeky to ask

Thank you

Dan

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Amateurs practice until they get it right, Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.


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zenguitarModerator
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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #720778 - 27/03/09 02:38 AM

Cheers guys,

and it's never too cheeky to ask Dan. However, it is a pretty broad subject to pin down. Any specific queries or questions to get me started?

Andy

--------------------
When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.


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Dan Bo



Joined: 20/07/07
Posts: 263
Loc: Oxford
Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: zenguitar]
      #720811 - 27/03/09 09:18 AM

Cool Thanks Zen,

In keeping with the thread lets start with "keeping fretwire clean"

We've all seen the green stuff come of them where something(sweat?) has obviously oxidised with them. I'm aware of some fret cleaning kits but these are like very fine sandpaper, which i suppose cant be good over a long period of time, can it?

I'm a very sweaty handed man (ooo eer) so i need to clean my fretboard more than most i guess.......and you cant beat shiny things

Thanks

Dan

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zenguitarModerator
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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: Dan Bo]
      #721088 - 28/03/09 03:37 AM

Quote Dan Bo:

...and you cant beat shiny things Dan



All that glitters is not Gold!!! And, in all seriousness, don't equate shinyness with godliness. Clean enough is good enough. There is nothing wrong with stuffing a bar towel in your waistband and wiping your palm dry between, or even during, songs. Prevention is better than cure.

If your frets really do get all gunged up, cut a fret width slot in a piece of plastic (to use as a mask) and give the frets a light polish with Brasso to de-gunk them.

Andy

--------------------
When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.


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-----
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Joined: 29/05/03
Posts: 5988
Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: zenguitar]
      #721104 - 28/03/09 09:37 AM

Quote zenguitar:

cut a fret width slot in a piece of plastic (to use as a mask)




I prefer the Zorro type masks - a lot more stylish than piece of plastic!


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zenguitarModerator
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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: -----]
      #721239 - 29/03/09 12:46 AM

Quote Wonkey Wabbit:

Quote zenguitar:

cut a fret width slot in a piece of plastic (to use as a mask)




I prefer the Zorro type masks - a lot more stylish than piece of plastic!




Of course, that's because you aren't as handsome as me

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Andy

--------------------
When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.


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Dan Bo



Joined: 20/07/07
Posts: 263
Loc: Oxford
Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #721399 - 29/03/09 09:56 PM

Thanks Zen, if we are talking masks i must say i prefer a cowl

I thought i'd post some pics of what my hands have done to one of my guitars, Its an old Yamaha se312 with a maple neck, i've had it for the last 15 years but was my only guitar for about 4 years and was in good condition before i got my mits on it.
I realise this is not that heavilly reliced considering some famous guitars but it only seen home use.



The picture make it not look so bad, lol



Rust is a major problem for me



The neck if faily worn but its the most comfortable neck out of all my guitars but i think the frets are going in some places.

Just thought i'd share.

Dan

Apologies for the image size/quality.

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zenguitarModerator
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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #721418 - 29/03/09 11:40 PM

Thanks for the pics Dan. You do have it bad mate, I'm sorry. I've not seen many guitars worse than that. A nasty case of poor man's Midas Touch, every thing you touch turns to rust...

The pic of the trem and pick-up shows it up best.

One of my next tool acquisitions will be an Ultrasound tank specifically to deal with parts like that. It's been on my shopping list for quite a while. Jewellers use them to clean jewellery and watch cases, but they are also used in industry to remove rust and other oxides. Jewellers tend to use them for simple cleaning using either water or a very mild ammonia solution. There are special solutions available for rust and oxide removal in industry but it is difficult to find them in small quantities.

Anyway, I the bad news is that I can't help with a cure for the problem. As there are others who have the same problem it would seem to be related to your body chemistry, but I have no idea what, if any, research has been done into this. It affects plenty of others so it might be worth investigating in greater detail. I have disturbing mental images of you on stage with a lab coated nerd following your every move with a test tube to collect sweat samples for analysis... scary!! But if 'they' could work out was in your sweat and what mechanism in your body produced it there could be a solution. Possibly something as simple as a change in diet. I very much doubt that any of the drug companies would see a big enough market to develop a new drug, but you never know, there might be an existing drug with a proven side effect that could solve it. And if you are really lucky that drug could be Viagra!!

However, I can help with a strategy for getting rid of the worst and keeping it away in the future as well as helping you protect new guitars.

Any corroded part that can be safely removed can be cleaned or replaced. The trem fine tuners and saddle grub screws maybe available as spares, you can certainly get scratch plate screws and pick-up mounting screws easily enough. You might be able to get them cleaned using ultrasound and a suitable solution with a little research. Possibly enquire around antique restorers, scientific instrument or clock restorers whether they can have it done for you or can introduce you to someone they use. For things like pick-up pole pieces that cannot be removed try using something like a felt polishing point in a Dremel or similar to remove the rust. Once the rust etc has been removed you could carefully apply a commercial rust inhibitor of some sort but be careful to check how safe it is on the guitar finish, pick-up bobbins, etc.

Finally, re-assemble using a small amount of 3in1 oil or sewing machine oil to protect metal on metal threads and protect screw heads, fine tuner buttons, pick-up pole pieces, with clear nail varnish as a protective layer. And whenever you change the strings take the chance to lubricate the threads and check the nail varnish. You will need to seal the screw heads after you have completed your set-up, so it might be worth wearing cheap latex gloves if you do your own. And the nail varnish will come off easily enough if you need to make any adjustments, just remember to apply a new dab after.

The final step is also good for new guitars too.

Hope that helps Dan.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.


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Dan Bo



Joined: 20/07/07
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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: zenguitar]
      #733028 - 08/05/09 01:39 PM

Sorry for the uber late response Zen been away from the forum for a while, many thanks for the tips i will put them into practice as i've not long bought an Ibanez with a floyd rose that i think will benefit from such tips as the nail polish on bits etc.Which brings me to another question:

Is there a way to buff a rosewood fretboard??

My brother has the same Ibanez (i bought my one so he could have his back) and mine has a sort of shine on the fretboard (it seems more buffed) while his is a lighter colour and more open pored as it were, his looks lovely after some lemon oil but it seems to dry out more quickly or look as though it does, where as mine looks as fresh and sheen as a sheeny fresh thing.
I only ask as i find the shine better on my sweaty mitts, which is strange as on all my maple neck guitars the sweat sits on top (and sometimes flicks in my face on vigerous bending which is yuck but very playable) and my other rosewood boards it soaks in leaving playing dry causes fingers to not feel as smooth on bends etc..

Hope this all makes sense, and thanks again for the detailed responses, they are very much appriciated.

Dan

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zenguitarModerator
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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #733216 - 09/05/09 12:22 AM

Cheers Dan,

The fretboards are a difficult call. It's possible that they are completely different species within the rosewood family, or the same species but with very different grain. So there's a chance that they will never come out the same.

One possibility is that your brother's guitar's fretboard has dried out a lot. So, something that's worth a try is to give it a good soak in lemon oil overnight and let it suck up as much as it can. Then, use a yellow duster to buff the fretboard clean. It's not something you should do often, but certainly worth a try. The wood will only absorb what it can naturally handle. One positive is that it will ensure the frets are well seated, but there is a very slight risk that it could take on a small back bow and need a truss rod adjustment.

Andy

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Stonehousestudio
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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: zenguitar]
      #733238 - 09/05/09 07:18 AM

You all need to read this,especially rule number 8!

Captain Beefheart's Ten Commandments For Guitarists
1. LISTEN TO THE BIRDS That's where all the music comes from. Birds know everything about how it should sound and where that sound should come from. And watch hummingbirds. They fly really fast, but a lot of times they aren't going anywhere.

2. YOUR GUITAR IS NOT REALLY A GUITAR Your guitar is a divining rod. Use it to find spirits in the other world and bring them over. A guitar is also a fishing rod. If you're good, you'll land a big one.

3. PRACTICE IN FRONT OF A BUSH Wait until the moon is out, then go outside, eat a multi-grained bread and play your guitar to a bush. If the bush doesn't shake, eat another piece of bread.

4. WALK WITH THE DEVIL Old delta blues players referred to amplifiers as the "devil box." And they were right. You have to be an equal opportunity employer in terms of who you're bringing over from the other side. Electricity attracts demons and devils. Other instruments attract other spirits. An acoustic guitar attracts Casper. A mandolin attracts Wendy. But an electric guitar attracts Beelzebub.

5. IF YOU'RE GUILTY OF THINKING, YOU'RE OUT If your brain is part of the process, you're missing it. You should play like a drowning man, struggling to reach shore. If you can trap that feeling, then you have something that is fur bearing.

6. NEVER POINT YOUR GUITAR AT ANYONE Your instrument has more power than lightning. Just hit a big chord, then run outside to hear it. But make sure you are not standing in an open field.

7. ALWAYS CARRY YOUR CHURCH KEY You must carry your key and use it when called upon. That's your part of the bargain. Like One String Sam. He was a Detroit street musician in the fifties who played a homemade instrument. His song "I Need A Hundred Dollars" is warm pie. Another church key holder is Hubert Sumlin, Howlin' Wolf's guitar player. He just stands there like the Statue of Liberty making you want to look up her dress to see how he's doing it.

8. DON'T WIPE THE SWEAT OFF YOUR INSTRUMENT You need that stink on there. Then you have to get that stink onto your music.

9. KEEP YOUR GUITAR IN A DARK PLACE When you're not playing your guitar, cover it and keep it in a dark place. If you don't play your guitar for more than a day, be sure to put a saucer of water in with it.

10. YOU GOTTA HAVE A HOOD FOR YOUR ENGINE Wear a hat when you play and keep that hat on. A hat is a pressure cooker. If you have a roof on your house the hot air can't escape. Even a lima bean has to have a wet paper towel around it to make it grow.




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Dan Bo



Joined: 20/07/07
Posts: 263
Loc: Oxford
Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #733456 - 10/05/09 11:00 AM

Many Thanks guys

Stonehouse: Fantastic set of rules for guitar and life me thinks

Thanks zen for the "board" advice, i will have to track down an ebony board and see if my hands agree with it or disagree it....more guitar shopping. yay

Dan

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audiomatic



Joined: 30/04/09
Posts: 245
Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #734597 - 13/05/09 09:58 PM

Stonehouse: What about Rule No. 11 - A new guitar still thinks it's a tree!

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audiomatic



Joined: 30/04/09
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Re: Cleaning a guitar new [Re: DaveA]
      #734611 - 13/05/09 10:34 PM

BoDan: From the pictures, the action on your Yamaha looks really high and the frets appear to be worn flat on top (do you do a lot of string bending?). I think you mentioned that you've had the guitar for 15 years, but not whether you play it often enough to have worn the frets to nubs. Have you raised the action to eliminate fret buzz that may have resulted from worn (flat-topped) frets? I would suggest fret leveling, recrowning and polishing, but you don't appear to have enough frets left to work with. If it were my guitar, I would refret it with jumbos, level the frets, recrown them and smooth them out with 600 grit, then 1500 grit sand paper; otherwise I couldn't play it. In my experience (opinion), corrossion resulting from sweat doesn't affect playability or tone, only aesthetics (and mechanics in the case of the tremolo). Except for parts that are plated with gold, I wouldn't sweat too much about sweat (Rule No. 8). The part of the fret that is contacted by the string will be as clean as a baby's bottom (not speaking from any personal, relevant experience, of course).

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