I'm a 41 yr old guitarist who likes all sorts of stuff from soul and Motown to death metal but confess to being a pretty lousy techinical guitarist. I can't read music, don't know my Dorians from mixolodians ( not even sure how to spell half the scales) but can play enough to get away with it.

I am however a good listener and can sort of pick up all sorts in particular little riffs and guitar parts that others seem to ignore and like things to sound....nice if you know what I mean

I play in a 'Tongue in cheek' pub band and although it's light-hearted I try to make it sound right. I play with sounds a bit, don't go ott with effx, and play using a lot of dynamics, finger picking, rakes, palm mutes, harmonics, arpeggios. All sorts really, whatever fits into tracks just to make them sound....nice

However my fellow musicians don't follow the same approach. Head down and play. What ever we do it just sounds the same ... A
wall of noise. Be it coldplay, rem or the sex pistols no body seems to think i don't need to play now or just play 1 chord and let it hang, it's all strum strum strum

Am I asking too much...am I getting to old? WTF?

Secondly what amps and effx if any do you use on stage and what sort of stuff do you do and where.

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I eat kebabs when i'm sober!

Edited by Dave71 (29/05/12 09:02 PM)

Are you asking too much? No. Are you getting too old? No, but you are not getting any younger

I have pretty much given up playing in bands. The last band was kind of as you describe. Every song (worth playing) has something that helps define it, e.g. that tiny 'push' on the beat, or a little hook line, a kick/bass pattern, the type of chorus on the guitar etc. Even if you completely rearrange the song it's helpful to keep some of these elements that make up the character of the song going. Or at least make sure your arrangement has some interesting stuff in it.

We would start off with good intentions, learn all our parts, but then over a period of time it would all decay so that tricky stuff got dropped, everything sounded 'lowest common denominator', and I got grumpier and grumpier. Which, given where I am starting from, is saying something!

I came to the conclusion I enjoyed the song development/rehearsals more than gigging, not surprisingly the others saw it the other way round, so hasta la vista grumpy.

My gear, before I sold it, was stripped back to the minimum I could get away with. Mesa Nomad combo, digtech quad rack effects for reverb/delay/chorus. Any old guitar (I have a perverse pleasure in playing the cheapest random guitar I can find).

I just do occasional open mics now, sing 3 songs with an acoustic guitar then drop them and learn something new for the next one. I do miss playing lead stuff but can't be arzed with the hassle of bands.

Having said that I have a gig in a couple of weeks with a band that actually musically fits the bill more, nice blokes, good musicians (better than me, which I like). But I'm struggling to commit fully, they all smoke weed and as a non-smoker I find rehearsals hard work, smoke gets in your eyes and all that, so I'm just kind of sessioning for them... For this gig I'll be using a cheap tranny Fender practice amp from the 1990s and a chinese strat copy that cost £49.95. I've managed to cobble together some pedals - Boss delay, Marshall reverb and overdrive.

Wow - long post! You must have touched a nerve. I'm off for a lie down.

cheers
A

PS edit - to answer the last part of the multiple choice question - band before last was a wedding covers band, last band was a country rock pub and party band, and the 'session' band do kind of jazzy rocky bluesy folk, sort of rocked up John Martyn style. Goes down very well with people my age (55)..

PPS - someone needs to be in charge of arrangements, do you have that in your band?

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getting better all the time..

Edited by adrian_k (30/05/12 08:09 AM)

I've mellowed somewhat in my approach (maybe because I'll be hitting 49 next week).

In my previous band we were all a pretty good standard. We started out as an original band and created quite a bit of interest (but we were all far too old and saddled with commitments to ever take it further). We knew how to write, arrange, record and perform material and there was understanding between band members. As we aged we turned into an occasional function band but we carried our skills with us - we were pretty good at that too. After a couple of years away I joined a new band (pub / function band) with considerable less experience and which included one, very keen, novice. I stepped up from rhythm guitar / keyboards to lead guitar and, incredibly, lead vocals. There was a massive step down in the standard but at least we were getting together every week or so rather than every few months.

I've come to terms with the fact that we'll never be as good as my last band (or some before that) but neither do I hold the musical ambitions that I once did. As long as we have fun and are improving that's ok. We've very recently been joined by a girl singer which has raised the standard greatly (not just through her vocals but also because I can concentrate more on playing and sorting out the arrangements. Having a new member and lots of new material to learn has also given us a push).

The description of heads down, see you at the end does appear very familiar but we are getting better and that's the key.

Chris

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http://www.random-thought.co.uk/

Well thank you both very much for the replies, i kind of expected a bombardment of 'jack it in you old git'

we stick to standard arangements apart from 1 or 2 tracks and it is I, who being the most expreienced (and i use the term very loosely there) am labled as the "musical director" / "nominated driver"

So i spend hours mapping out songs bar for bar from scratch (cant trust the 12yr old spotty teenager input on ultimate-guitar.com). Hghlighting who should play what, where breaks are, where things should rise and fall and get the p**s taken out of me whenever i mention the word dynamics.

To the point where the band was called OCD for a while (im apparently Obsessive, Compulsive and the rest of the band being disorderly)

I too focus more on Jam/Open mic nights ato the point where i started hosting my own. Im nearly more comfortable sat behind a desk making other people sound reasonable than performing. I would love to do 3 and move on but i have very little time to play and my memory for lyrics is abismal.
Not mentioning my limited vocal skills - entertaining....yes, skillful...No

My Mrs sings a few for us and she is a nightmare, never learns songs, never remembers when we are rehearsing or gigging and stands looking at me for a nod when to start singing.

sound wise i have a budget marshall mg 100w amp and an a pretty poor digitech dnx floorboard but it does the job.

So saying all that i have come to the conclusion its a bit of a chore, (especially when you take into account they all live within 5 miles of each other and im 20 miles away) and we all know chores aint fun. Trouble is if i jack it in the band is buggered as Im the sound man and the Mrs wont have the motivation to go on her own. it will put a strain on a few friendships and as the bass player owns the pub where we play i get a few DJ gigs so it could also hit my pocket.

we have a gig on sunday afternon for the Jubilee and after that im rewriting the setlist with more acoustic tracks, at least 1 guitar will be acoustic which im sure will help.

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I eat kebabs when i'm sober!

Quote Dave71:

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Im nearly more comfortable sat behind a desk making other people sound reasonable than performing.

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I know the feeling. Thing about that though is when you are playing material you like with people who are good it is a great feeling.

Quote Dave71:

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Trouble is if i jack it in the band is buggered as Im the sound man

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That's delayed my departure from a couple of bands. But I find it quite difficult to 'do the sound' and concentrate on playing. Especially since there are some band members who couldn't seem to plug a mic in or carry a speaker....

Good luck with the Jubilee gig I'll be doing a couple of solo spots at open mics..

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getting better all the time..

Dave, I really like your post because it hits to the heart of what makes great bands (IMO). Back when we were 7 pieces we had similar challenges. So someone has to be the arranger, and can do it by balancing input from the group with making firm choices.

Getting all to understand dynamics can be difficult if members feel like they have to shine all the time. Playing with the goal of putting on a show instead of just playing songs can help.

We would bring on only the keyboard player and one vocalist. Next song add bassist and harmony vocal. Next song bring on guitar, drummer, etc. - building a show over the course af a set.

Also helpful was doubling on instruments even if members aren't especially profficient at another instrument. Each doesn't have to be a virtuoso on an instrument to add good variety and dynamic to the group. I played steel guitar, lead guitar, and alto sax. The keyboardist doubled on tenor sax. Our rhythm/lead guitarist switched from electric to acoustic. Drummer switching to only percussion. So this really mixes up the presentation and makes it interesting for the audience - and sometimes more important as you're pointing out - more fun and interesting for the band members as well.

Also song variation for tempo and key within the set is good. No dead air too.

It's difficult to sit through an entire set of most bands' wall of sound where everyone is playing all the time. And I've had enough of strumming already.

Mix in some humor, keep it moving.

I feel you on all the points you've brought up.

Rick

Quote artzmusic:

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Mix in some humor


Rick

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I no longer have a sense of humour, and its a stark reminder why i DJ so much

So there i was sitting in a guitar shop, guitar in hand trying out a new Blackstar amp (to replace crap marshall MG) and text message arrives.

Drummer cant make sundays gig.

Months of planning, several hundreds of pounds spent on gear, hours of rehearsals, diesel getting to said rehersals.

Nail & Coffin springs to mind!

Did like the blackstar but never did a full demo though. as i would like to bypass floorboards a 3 channel beast would be good. clean, distorted & boost. Thats if i ever bother again.


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I eat kebabs when i'm sober!

Quote:

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Trouble is if i jack it in the band is buggered as Im the sound man

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Sounds like the band is buggered anyway.

Sorry to hear your band woes, Dave; I clicked with what you were saying in particular as I too am a lousy technical guitarist who does not read music..... I'm a half-decent singer and TBH this has made me lazy over the years on guitar technique. On singer-songwriter chord bashing stuff my guitar playing hides behind the voice. All well and good but I haven't moved forward as much over the years as I should have.

The (loose) band I play with works, though.... Our keys player is a fantastic musician and takes on the role of musical director. It took the two of us a while to get used to each other - he is 100% in favour of getting the song we are working on to sound bang on like the record. I'm happier with a looser arrangent by default but I'm going with it with enthusiasm as it's an entirely different experience and I'm of the opinion that you need those to grow Getting things this accurate has been hard work but very, very good for me and I'm very grateful for all the effort he's put in to this band..... It takes some doing to get everyone going the right way and hats off to him he's done it brilliantly.

The difference in your band is that you are the one cracking the whip and your band mates don't seem to be buying into it. For me, it was that 'wow' moment when the first arrangement came together and the brass guys turned up - it just sounded amazing...... At that point any doubts I had in the effort:results ratio were gone and my mind (which was already open to change) opened completely to always giving it an enthusiastic go 'his way'.

If your drummer's commitment issues do not dissolve the band anyway, is it worth getting just one or two tracks absolutely bang on as described above rather than trying to fix everything? Audience feedback should then convince them that you're talking sense . That's my opinion anyway

Hope it all works out OK.

As to what I use on stage, it's a 7w single channel master volume only valve amp which is like a bi-plane to drive but I love it to death

Your post resonates strongly with me, wall of sound thrashing, three people singing the same vocal line as if they are coming home from the pub at midnight. Familiar stuff. Many people play music for their own sense of fun not for creating something someone else would listen to. Finding players who are listeners who would rather leave a little space than just plough on is tricky.

For live use I've boiled down to a vox night train and a line6 m13.
The Night Train is pretty fab, looks like a toaster but sounds very nice.
The M13 is a compromise, things like the auto wah just don't have enough bite in them, but the compactness and versatility offset that by a long way. I spend much of my time with it switched off anyway.

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I've never liked a solo violin, you need at least five for a proper fire.

More comforting words, cheers!

Tis a real old roller coaster this weekend. Had just re written the setlist and shaved it from 28 tracks to 12 and emailed it out

the bass player did an update on facebook (he's the pub owner) basically saying the band was now just doing a smaller acoustic set but the overall celebrations were as planned (im doing a karaoke & disco too) and within minutes my phone rings

Local well respected drummer announces he is free and if somebody picks him up, supplies him with a few beers and takes him home he's ours for the evening.

Funny you mention vocals, i can sing a few but have a limited range. The Mrs is a bugger as she sings really good harmonies, trouble is she puts me off and i end up drifting towards her harmonies. I too have to tell her not to sing sometimes as it begins to sound a bit bananarama'ish

now a small valve amp sounds appealing but i do like to play with sounds to try emulate the original guitar tracks as much as possible.

Manics, Kaiser Cheifs, Killers - all the same sort of noise but sometimes some classic rock sort of sound is required

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I eat kebabs when i'm sober!

Well we did our first gig and i have to say my guitar sound was abismal overall. I managed to get a few nice sounds during tracks by playing with my pickup switch, vol and tone knobs but considering i was playing, singing, nodding to the stand-in drummer and running the desk it was a bit much!

before i buy anything else (not sure if we are going to survive) im going to try and work with what i've got.

Ditching the digitech board is a priority as even the tuner is crap. will keep the marshall mg and look at an eq or something for solo boosts.

i also have an old line 6 pod with some half decent tones so if i can find an FB4 controller may try that.

Drummer was really usefull as he did a few pep-talks and everybody seemed to listen to his words of wisdom, as he basically said what i have been saying for a while.....maybe just maybe

Anyway overall it felt good playing and there were moments where we sounded pretty smooth but they were too far and few between. If you cant beat em....

8 hours on site with a van full of my gear = £100 in my pocket...better than nowt

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I eat kebabs when i'm sober!

Can I just input this? it's not about gear though, more about what's on the other end: humans.
There are not many bands without an element of compromise, unless they are complete dictatorships. People have jobs, lives, different aspirations and differing needs and ideas for their bands. These things usually don't match, for instance a drummer may just enjoy having a laugh and a bash and the social aspect of performing, the guitar player on the other hand might find the whole process extremely personal and thrive on perfection and preparation. One has to understand the other and make allowances.

Unless you are playing to an audience consisting entirely of amateur guitarists who are being paid to criticise you, nobody will care how technical your playing is, they care far more about the melody, the tone, the tune, the mix and the performance. Just as filling your signal chain with mediocre effects will muddy your final output, attempting the same thing on the fretboard can have a similar effect. Your bandmates shouldn't knock your dedication to dynamics. However, dynamics are just as much about what you don't play which makes the 'what you do play' stand up.

Great sounding fingers come first, if you're playing rock, an electric guitar needs a good pickup, the rest of the guitar doesn't have to set the bank on fire but it has to be set up properly. Then you need a great amp, not a poor one or an OK one, a great one. if you introduce pedals into this chain, you better be sure they do the business. Your age or the age of your equipment should never be a barrier unless that age has caused some breakage or wear which is affecting the music, in that case get whatever it is fixed.

None of this is particularly directly aimed at the OP, althought it's a response to the discussion and obviously open to differing opinion. Just some conclusions and ideas I've had during 25 years of being in and out of bands of all kinds, including duos and solo, playing live and recording.

Fascinating stuff. I'm definitely getting a sense of not being alone.

An observation, for what it's worth. My band have been working with our new singer for about a month. Since the initial audition at the start of May we've managed two full practice sessions, with everybody present, plus two sessions with the other guitarist missing (the other guitarist being the least experienced band member). As I've said previously we've made a big step up and I think that the following are the major factors;

Better vocals (I do my best but I'm not a proper singer).
I can focus on my guitar playing.
Boost in enthusiasm through having a new member.
We've reduced the volume in the rehearsal room (singer has mild tinnitus).
Backing vocals (I was previously the only vocalist).
I can listen more to what the others are playing and 'advise' (there's a big difference between advise and dictate).
I have tweaked my guitar set up (as by product of improved guitar focus).
The other guitarist has simplified his set up (as a result of 'advise given').

Not having the other guitarist present for half the practices has been enlightening. On a fair bit of the set this leaves a big hole in the sound. Whilst it sounds sparse I've taken the opportunity to really listen to what I'm playing and how it fits (rather than adapt my playing to fill the temporary space). On a couple of tracks it sounds better without the other guitar pointing to areas that need to be addressed. I've known this for some time but it's highlighted the fact to the rest of the band. The trick now is how to persuade the other guitarist to change rather than just gang up on him (he may be 6'2" and built like a brick outhouse but he does have feelings).

No rocket science in any of the above but I hope it helps anyway.

I've got gigs this Saturday and the next some I hope that the new singer doesn't get stage fright.

Chris

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http://www.random-thought.co.uk/

Quote Alfie Noakes:

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Unless you are playing to an audience consisting entirely of amateur guitarists who are being paid to criticise you, nobody will care how technical your playing is, they care far more about the melody, the tone, the tune, the mix and the performance.

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Yep, spot on. In fact I'd go as far as to say most audients (word?) only notice problems in two areas: Vocals and groove. Vocals - everyone knows instantly if they like a singer's voice (and it's not just being in tune, it's tone, authenticity, dynamic, etc). Groove - while most people wouldn't be able to put their finger on why, they know when they've seen a band that are strangely lifeless.

The only problem that people notice with guitars is if they are too loud....

+1 it's not about gear (mostly).

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getting better all the time..

More on bands:

Drums; need to be fantastic, if you can't get Bill Ward or Ginger Baker then you may have to make do with your own drummer, bad luck. The drums need to be in time (not a metronome, but any changes should be with the groove of the music and tight to where the other musicians expect to go). Sorely neglected are the drums, the skins need to be tuned, preferably by someone who knows how to. How many drummers do you see fiddling with a tuning key but little idea how to use it? If you're a rock drummer and you think you're hitting the drums loudly enough, you're not. If you think you aren't, then you probably are. A good sounding kit played sympathetically and dynamically can and will hold an audience on its own, think about that next time you rehearse. Personal hygiene is more important than you think, but less important than the guitarist tells you it is.

Bass; you're not a failed guitarist so stop allying yourself with those poseurs. You may be fat and ugly but you've got the bigger balls, right? The place for the bottom man is best buddies with the drummer, hook onto each other's groove, lockdown on that sucker, do not pass 'go' do not collect £200, unless that's your %. Look after yourself, because you're worth it. Your kit is going to be expensive, hot pickups in modest basses through great amps can cause miracles, we're talking G&K, Traces, Ashdown, that sort of thing. Forget your effects unless you happen to be in a Hawkwind tribute band or you absolutely must have 20 different 80Hz buzzes with which to annoy and confuse the soundman/band.

Guitar; oh heck, where do we go from here? Deep down, inside, you know what you need to do, but time after time, ego/gear lust takes over. You need less gear, but better gear. Work on your image, work on your stagecraft and visual presence. Dont widdle for more than 2 bars. Play more simply with more feeling. Understand sustain and use it to your advantage. The human brain registers the music slower than you think, your audience even slower than that. Experiment and take risks during rehearsals and practice, not during gigs. Don't get drunk, don't steal beer. Pay back the money you borrowed from the bassist. Accept at times, that you are there to back up the singer, if they are singing and you can't hear them, it's a problem. Bands don't really need two rhythm guitars, more than one guitar is a luxury so use the situation wisely and sparingly. A guitar solo over just bass and drums can, and often does, work very well.

Vocals; if the others get things right it's an easy job. Perform within your limits, chose songs which work for you and don't be afraid to try covers in different keys if that means you can sing them better (the guitarist will love you for this). You have more freedom than the other band members to express yourself without looking idiotic, try not to let the 'expression' get in the way of you hitting the notes. Look after your voice. Remember the audience is looking at you 90% of the time, even when the guitarist is soloing. No pressure.

Backup vox; learn to harmonise, learn to project. If you do this already and you can get through whole songs then you might save money by sacking the singer.

Keyboards; keyboards are essentially cheating in pub/club rock bands. What's going on? Are you the guy with glasses who's parents wouldn't let him have a guitar and insisted on piano lessons? You're the only one with any classical training, you work out all the songs for the guitarists, you own the PA. Be aware, the band rely on you to hold the music together, they have forgotten how a band really works. Go on a long holiday somewhere warm, get contact lenses. When you come back the band might be tight again, or split up. Either way you win, high-five buddy!

Strings/brass/other; get real, the odd saxophone might work out here but I'm already on my way out the door. The orchestra is that way >>>>>>> I have Simon Rattle's number somewhere if you need it.

Edit: oh yeah, and bands, work out proper beginnings and endings to songs. 4 drumstick clicks and straight in does not do for all 45 songs in the set, likewise a classic 'never ending' end is proportionally effective ie. the longer it goes on, the more the audience hate you (and it's a real loathing, they may take a contract out on you). Finish on the 1st stab, not the 28th. Nobody wants to see or hear that absolute fret w**k going on for 8 mins after the song should have finished. If you need to stretch the set out, tell a joke or jam out a middle 8 instead.

More relevant information, which believe me is highly appreciated.

Alfie, thanks for your perspective on the situation, again some very useful information. I like classic rock and have always tried to emulate the sounds, style and energy that comes from that but appreciate you need the talent and right gear to do that. Would love a vintage les Paul and a collection of valve amplifiers, wouldn't many.

I do have my guitars set up nicely and although they are hard to play (heavy strings) they are always in tune, no fret buzz, pleanty of natural sustain and no popping or buzzing form dodgy electrics.

With my sound I try to keep it to the minimum. My clean tone has a tiny bit of chorus just to mellow the sound and my distorted tone has nothing on at all. It's getting the right balance of noise that works with our other guitarist is the problem. He is an old school punk/ indie player and have to say co wrote and recorded some half decent tracks back in the nineties. Nothing technical but that was their style. Trouble is my rock technique, power chords, chunky riffs etc don't go with his indie chord strums and heavily processed sounds.
He also has his guitars set up differently, light strings, which causes a few issues on some tracks.

The music we play calls for a bit of everything and some track sound great where other simple tracks that are a piece of cake and should be a walk in the park sound terrible.

in comparison we haven't been playing together long and I've tried not to impose to may sanctions as in all honesty I wouldn't like somebody telling me how to play something but maybe thats what is needed. Maybe we all need to talk a bit more frankly and I need to listen just as much as everybody else.

We are meeting up soon, at my house for a change so I'm not doing the 35 mile round trip, and hopefully we will have a bit of amature video of Sunday's gig to reflect on.

Sundays stand in drummer has made a few more consructive points which I thank have started to sink in. Basically the bass player and one of our singers really need experience of playing with other musicians and listen to what's going on instead of head down and do what they need to do. That comes for their inexperience and they now realise that.

Our overal aim is not to be a serious band with a multitude of gigs, nobody has the time for that bit we all agree we want to do things to the best of our ability and put on a respectable show.

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I eat kebabs when i'm sober!

Quote Alfie Noakes:

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Don't get drunk, don't steal beer.

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No chance mate...

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getting better all the time..

That arrived as I was writing.

May email that out to the band

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I eat kebabs when i'm sober!

Quote Dave71:

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The music we play calls for a bit of everything and some track sound great where other simple tracks that are a piece of cake and should be a walk in the park sound terrible.

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A common theme. Song selection can make or break with covers. If a band is playing stones, would you rather hear a mediocre version of jumpin jack flash or a great version of rocks off?

I work in an environment which is based on self-improvement, without feedback and self-reflection you have little basis to improve. If there are people worth listening to, then it's just a case of putting the ego away for a little while. Difficult in music, I know, as so much is based around ego and self-perception.
I had a band in the 90s, we thought we were the best thing ever, thought we would get signed, listened to no one and did what we wanted. I got the demos out yesterday and listened. In my opinion now, we were pretty average, and my singing was nothing like as good as I thought at the time. Maybe a good producer could have got something, but he'd have sacked the drummer and probably rewrote our songs!

The secret is to play what the girls like , I learnt some wes montgomery and my missus thought the Hammond organ sounded like Penquin Music !!!, however 4 bars of Play that Funky Music and the whole pub is bopping. She thinks Francis Rossi is a much better guitarist than Steve Vai and that Ringo Star is better than Steve Gadd. I think that goes for the majority of pub gig punters , God i hate her at times,

Quote starsky55:

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The secret is to play what the girls like , I learnt some wes montgomery and my missus thought the Hammond organ sounded like Penquin Music !!!, however 4 bars of Play that Funky Music and the whole pub is bopping. She thinks Francis Rossi is a much better guitarist than Steve Vai and that Ringo Star is better than Steve Gadd. I think that goes for the majority of pub gig punters , God i hate her at times,

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The compromise is finding songs which the audience will like Vs what YOU like. If you don't like it, you won't enjoy playing it, so unless the fee is fantastic I would suggest packing numbers that you like or at least can tolerate getting into.

Unfortunately the idea of what people want to actually hear got killed in the rush to the beard and jumper shop. Punters do like 'popular' music, of course they do. But unless you're playing to the old folks home, the popular music isn't what may have been popular fifty years ago. Yes, there are 'classics', yes 'most' people have heard the Beatles or Strolling Bones. However, don't expect the 19year old girls to start asking you to sign their cleavage after your lacklustre rendition of 'wish you were here'. Eric Clapton doesn't even sound very good when he plays his own songs (cream era excluded) so why should a bunch of half-cut, middle aged mechanics from Bromley set the 'Cock and Bull' alight with their heartfelt but ultimately out of tune, out of time and sweaty beer-bellied version of 'wonderful tonight'?

Just to balance the books so i don't sound 100% negative on this, it's good to choose a mixture of old and new. However, and this is the big one, with most bands your 'old' probably isn't old enough, and your 'new' is well past it's use by date.

Pub rock may have kickstarted the punk scene, but pub bands in the late 80s and early 90s didnt just kill live music, they kidnapped it, tortured it with hot pokers and dragged it kicking and screaming through the years until the townsfolk actually believed it was the Devil himself and called in the exorcists.

Oh, good HEAVENS... totally loving this thread, but in particular THIS post (Alfie Noakes, 6/6/12). I did most of my gigging in Minneapolis in the 1980s, burned out, & took 20 years to get back to sporadic pickup gigs. Now I'm moving back toward informal shows, home jams, & teaching. I started out on drums, fell in love with guitar, & now am primarily a bass player. And my experience of the past 30 years matches up with yours. A few expansions & emphases, then.

DRUMS: give me a rick-tick drummer with a heart like a metronome & I'll gladly find some way to make the sound huge. Flash is near-useless in a bar anyway, & sloppy drumming drags down the tightest fret section. No drinking or weed before the show or during the first sets -- I've known only one drummer who could keep his chops tight while swigging beer, & he was a workhorse who burned off the alcohol as fast as he took it in.

BASS: a great pub bassist understands that he's paired to the drummer, providing emphasis & counterpoint. A well-setup bass guitar is vital, & can be cheap -- most of my herd cost me $150 or less, used. But a farty little bass amp WILL NOT cut it. My 100-watt was able to keep up with three guitarists & a drummer at a small pub... barely. I moved up to a 450-watt Behringer that cost less than a good speaker cab. Unless you really need a deadly tone (Pappalardi, Casady, Claypool, Bruce, Ox), the only pedal IMO you really need is a good compressor/limiter. You need to know when to emphasise the guitar's rhythm & when to counterpoint it -- two good bassists will be able to play side-by-side without stumbling because they can find complementary grooves.

SECOND GUITAR: the cause could be made that the best guitarist should be playing rhythms primarily. This is the ground over which the rest of the tune is painted, & jaw-dropping leads pasted on inept chording is just awful, while awkward solos over a well-considered tonal groove, without holes or excess, will charm an audience.

VOCALS: if you can't copy a tune precisely, then don't fake it. Change the key, metre, tempo, whatever. If you're struggling, it tires the audience faster than you; if you can get into it, & a few of the drunks can still sing along, they'll hang on your every utterance. For god's sake, DO NOT sit down & look bored, & don't leap around on an 8x10 stage -- get a guitar at least as a prop even if the cord runs to empty air.

GUITARS: study your craft. If you play once a week & don't practice, it SOUNDS thus. Don't try to copy by ear, because there's surprisingly few of us who can do this well. A band was struggling to do "Black Hole Sun" until I told them about drop-D tuning; a solo acoustic blues player was tearing out his hair (almost literally) until I listened to the track & told him it was in open-D capoed up 3 to G. Now that you've got this goshdarn Internet thing, there's no excuses for making your life difficult. Your tuning isn't half as vital as your precision: if the track you're covering is fast & snappy, sacrifice speed to get the snap -- you can always ramp up as the song becomes part of muscle-memory, but slop is just slop. If you've got 2 or 3 or 4 (or even 5 -- seen it) six-string guitars, all in standard tuning, all whanging away on the same barre chords, then learn to pare back, to use different positions & partials, to comp on single notes, or it's just a tsunami of mud, song after song.

KEYS: learn chords on piano & Hammond voices. Anyone who auditions for me & trots out "cool" sound-effects will be banished, immediately & forever -- sure, the drunks love it when you punch up the Orchestral Flatulence voice, but the novelty wears off in about 30 seconds, & then it's DONE. Used to be that tinkly Floyd Cramer celeste would charm the over-50 crowd, but now that WE are past 50 we want at least Steppenwolf -- the keys need to paint backdrop, not prowl around waiting for the next squealing solo. And don't "tink tink tink" along with EVERY tune -- if you can't back away sometimes, then give some left-hand counterpoint to the bassist.

ALL: not everyone wants to hear a 2:37 Golden Oldie played in 2:37 every time. Keep your ears open for expanding a song, especially when a crowd's really into it. Not everything needs to be a bad Phish-esque jam. You could even create a new bridge or middle 8, or paste up a medley, to reduce the stop-start gaps during a set.

Well, that's a start. Thanks all for a lively discussion!!

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resident troublemaker, http://forum.frugalguitarist.com/

Edited by Tony Raven (09/06/12 03:47 PM)