I have posted all over the place and haven't had much luck finding what I need, so I figure I might as well try here...

I am trying to connect two racks of gear together easily. I have one rack full of fx and another rack with a preamp/poweramp in it. Instead of patching tons of cables between the racks, is there an easier way to do this?

Basically, I want all the gear in my top rack (fx) to connect to some type of interface panel in the back of my rack. Then, I want to go out of that panel into another panel in the rack below it (preamp/poweramp). Finally, I want the speaker outs of that preamp/poweramp to go back into the panel so that I can plug speakon wires directly from that to my cabs.

I have seen tons of guitar racks with one or two cases together. However, I can never see the back of the racks to see how things are routed from one rack to another.

I am willing to go pro with all my connectors and solder them myself. I just don't know where to start....

Thanks!

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www.reverbnation.com/jacksjoy

The standard for touring theater shows...

http://wireworks.com/

Not without frustrations mind you, but very useful.

Seablade

I guess I am looking for something sorta like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBV0tHwxr2M&feature=related

It has neutrik speakon connectors. I would like to use speakon connectors to connect between one rack and the other. On the backside of each panel, I would have connectors (TS or TRS depending on what I need for my gear) that would plug into my fx units and preamp/poweramp.

The backside would have connectors like in the picture that is posted halway down on this forum post (except I wouldn't have banana plugs or anything like that, it is merely an example of having XLR, TRS or TS cables on the back).
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?779436-Jack-Panel
I am competent enough at soldering to know what connectors to use for the right application and how to solder them. I just don't know what type of patchpanel to buy. In particular, I like how these have some sort of rubber glove that fits over the soldered section on the inside of the patchbay. What are those?

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www.reverbnation.com/jacksjoy

Quote Jack's Joy:

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I am competent enough at soldering to know what connectors to use for the right application and how to solder them. I just don't know what type of patchpanel to buy. In particular, I like how these have some sort of rubber glove that fits over the soldered section on the inside of the patchbay. What are those?

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You haven't linked to a patch panel really. You have linked to a standard rackmount panel with cutouts for connectors. And the boots are not part of the panel, they are separate. In the case of what you linked it appears they are a form of heatshrink, not one I have dealt with but you can get a variety of rubber boots from various distributors.

Of course if you are dealing with multiple wires it doesn't help with the number of cables you have to patch or the mess it can create, which is where multipin connectors come in. In particular, if patching many speaker connections between racks (Why would you do this precisely anyways?) I would use NL8 connectors, not NL4 or NL2.

By the way, you have your preamps mounted in a rack with your power amps? Why exactly? I am having problems understanding your reasoning from your posts to be honest and am wondering if there isn't more than a little confusion in terminology there (Which in turn makes me suspect you might want to get some help on your first rack to ensure it is in fact done safely and correctly). I could be wrong, but as I said there is more than a little confusion as to why you have done, or are wanting to do, some things you are describing.

Seablade

If you want more a more detailed idea of the best way of linking the 2 racks together, then it would be helpful to know what's in each rack and what you want to route where. At the moment it's not clear.

What I think you want to do is:

Panel in back of FX rack -> multi-pin connector out to -> panel in amp rack

Then you'd want

Panel in amp rack -> to speakers.

But a list of gear that you want to connect and where it's being connected to would give us a better idea!

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

Edited by Exavior Music (14/08/12 11:05 AM)

Getting the gist of things her it would seem that either sommer cable ( www.sommercable.com ) or link italy ( www.linkitaly.com ) would have what you require. Both do rack panels with multipin connectors.

Why would you want to use speakon for it? Use something like EDAC which comes in various sizes and is pretty easy to work with too.

Quote Jack's Joy:

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I have posted all over the place and haven't had much luck finding what I need,...

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I'm not surprised. What you need is a custom manufacture job. Not hard, but very custom...

Quote:

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I am trying to connect two racks of gear together easily. I have one rack full of fx and another rack with a preamp/poweramp in it. Instead of patching tons of cables between the racks, is there an easier way to do this?

---

Yes, top rack FX units wired directly to a multi-pin connector mounted on a metal panel in the back of the rack (or even direct to a flying cable with a multi-pin plug on the end). Depending on the number of connections required you could use D-subs, EDACs, MIl26 or various others of increasing cost and ruggedness.

You then have another metal panel in the other rack with the appropriate receiving multi-pin connector on it, wired as required to the pre/power amp. The same panel can also house your speakons.

If you want to be able to patch between units on the back panel, then a standard patch panel is the obvious way to do that, but you could also build that functionality into the same plate as already described. It's only a case of drilling holes, installing sockets, and wiring them up.

Canford Audio have a custom shop that would design and build this for you, and I'm sure there are countless other small companies that could do the same. If you're able to do the metal work and wiring yourself, you can find all the necessary hardware and connectors in the Canford catalogue.

www.canford.co.uk

Hugh


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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote seablade:

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Of course if you are dealing with multiple wires it doesn't help with the number of cables you have to patch or the mess it can create, which is where multipin connectors come in. In particular, if patching many speaker connections between racks (Why would you do this precisely anyways?) I would use NL8 connectors, not NL4 or NL2.

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I may have mixed up my terminology. In the top rack, I will have my power conditioner which will plug into the wall. All of my fx will be plugged into this. Additionally, I have a RJM Effects Gizmo which will switch my fx in and out of my signal chain. On the bottom rack, I will have my poweramp and preamp. should have a few things:
1.) 1/4" line input. This will bring my guitar signal from switcher in the top rack into the preamp in the bottom rack. In my switcher, I have stompboxes that are in-line before the preamp.
2.)Stereo sends. This will allow me to patch the output of the stereo preamp back to the top rack to return to my signal chain. Once back in the top rack, the signal will run through rack fx and mixer. (this is a parallel fx loop, with my fx being mixed 100% wet).
3.)Stereo returns. This will allow me to return the signal from the mixer and parallel loop fx back to my bottom rack. Those will then go into my poweramp.
4.) Speaker outputs (x4). These will allow me to patch out of the poweramp to hook to my cabinets.
5.) Midi in and out. I need to connect midi from my top rack to my bottom rack to control my preamp functions and channel switching.
6.) Power out. This will connect my power cables from my preamp and poweramp so they can get power from my power conditioner in the top rack that has specific outputs for reserve power for high powered amplifiers.

Quote seablade:

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By the way, you have your preamps mounted in a rack with your power amps? Why exactly? I am having problems understanding your reasoning from your posts to be honest and am wondering if there isn't more than a little confusion in terminology there (Which in turn makes me suspect you might want to get some help on your first rack to ensure it is in fact done safely and correctly). I could be wrong, but as I said there is more than a little confusion as to why you have done, or are wanting to do, some things you are describing.

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I would prefer to have my preamp mounted in my top rack with my fx and switching unit. It would make a lot more sense there. However, my rack is already an 8u and too heavy. My bottom rack is a 6u rack. To distribute the weight more evenly, I am placing the preamp in the bottom rack with the poweramp. This makes both racks about the same weight. I am doing this because I want to be able to transport both racks on my own if needed. I am in a basement and must go up and down stairs. Thus, a 12u or 14u rack with everything in it isn't doable. Once at the top of the stairs, I can place the top 8u rack on the 6u rack that will have casters on it.

In a perfect world, I would have three cables connecting the racks together.
1.) Cable #1 - would carry the audio to/from each interface.
2.) Cable #2 - would carry power from the bottom interface to the top interface.
3.) Cable #3 - would carry midi to/from both cases (or just from the top interface to the bottom....I could have my preamp as the last midi device in my signal chain if needed).

I am working on a schematic that I will post to give a visual idea on what I am trying to do, with the hopes you guys can a.) tell me if it will work, b.) how to do it, or c.) different options...

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www.reverbnation.com/jacksjoy

Quote Exavior Music:

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If you want more a more detailed idea of the best way of linking the 2 racks together, then it would be helpful to know what's in each rack and what you want to route where. At the moment it's not clear.

What I think you want to do is:

Panel in back of FX rack -> multi-pin connector out to -> panel in amp rack

Then you'd want

Panel in amp rack -> to speakers.

But a list of gear that you want to connect and where it's being connected to would give us a better idea!

---

Yep. You pretty much have it. The problem is, I don't just need to go from the top rack to the bottom rack (see above). I need to go both ways with the audio signal because my preamp is in the bottom rack in addition to the power amp. If I could put my preamp in the top rack, I could do it easily like you described (again, see above).

I will get a list of the gear and a schematic on here as soon as I can. Thanks!

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www.reverbnation.com/jacksjoy

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Yes, top rack FX units wired directly to a multi-pin connector mounted on a metal panel in the back of the rack (or even direct to a flying cable with a multi-pin plug on the end). Depending on the number of connections required you could use D-subs, EDACs, MIl26 or various others of increasing cost and ruggedness.

You then have another metal panel in the other rack with the appropriate receiving multi-pin connector on it, wired as required to the pre/power amp. The same panel can also house your speakons.

If you want to be able to patch between units on the back panel, then a standard patch panel is the obvious way to do that, but you could also build that functionality into the same plate as already described. It's only a case of drilling holes, installing sockets, and wiring them up.

Canford Audio have a custom shop that would design and build this for you, and I'm sure there are countless other small companies that could do the same. If you're able to do the metal work and wiring yourself, you can find all the necessary hardware and connectors in the Canford catalogue.

www.canford.co.uk

Hugh

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Well, we are on the right track. Canford has a TON of stuff. I started looking through their database and know that I can do what I need with the things they offer. My problem is this...

What multipin connectors would work the best for what I described above? Ideally, I would some sort of connector that could carry all of the things I listed in one cable. Can I have a cable carry audio, power, and midi data together? Then, I could just have speakons for the speaker cables. Typically, it is not a good idea to run power, audio, and data together because of interference. This brings me to believe I would need one cable for each one (audio, power, and data).

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www.reverbnation.com/jacksjoy

Here are the items in my top rack:

Furman p1800 PFR Power Conditioner
Shure SLX4 Wireless
ISP Decimator Pro Rack G
Digitech GSP1101 FX Unit
Lots of stompboxes on a rack shelf
RJM Effects Gizmo (switching system)
RJM Mini Line Mixer (for parallel fx loop)
Voodoo Power supplies for AC & DC

Bottom Rack
Engl Special Edition Preamp
Engl Stereo Power Amp

BTW...halfway down on this post is a rack that has (3) cases connected together. Yet, I can't see on the back how it is connected together....

http://www.musicplayers.com/tutorials/guitars/2010/0510_Racks101-examples. php

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www.reverbnation.com/jacksjoy

Edited by Jack's Joy (14/08/12 06:50 PM)

There certainly are connectors that can handle mains power as well as audio and data, but clearly the standard of construction, wiring and maintenance go up a lot too!

Personally, I would keep mains separate on IEC plugs/sockets for convenience and cost, linking between the racks with flying leads or short extensions.

Midi and audio can co-exist very happily in the same connectors given sensible pin allocations.

As for the type of connector, the world is your omlette -- or something like that! -- and it really just depends on how many connections are needed (don't forget the benefit of encircling unbalanced audio connections with grounded pins!), and how quiclkly and easily you want to be able to connect things together. MIL plugs are very quick and easy to connect and disconnect, but aren't the easiest to terminate. EDACS are chunky. D-subs are cheaper but a lot more fiddly.

I think you're talking about 5 audio signals (preamp in, stereo FX send, stereo FX return) between the racks -- all presumably unbalanced. That's only ten connections (including separate grounds. Throw in another half dozen for MIDI etc and I'd probably go for MIL plugs if someone else was building it for me, or 25-pin D-subs if not -- both carrying all the audio and MIDI connections! Adopt a compatible variation of the TASCAM protocol and you'll be able to use standard D-sub looms to link your racks, too.

Chuck in some IEC sockets for the mains linking and some speakons for the amp outputs and the job's a good'un

hugh


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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Sommer do such a cable (i.e. actual cable which is a multicore consisting of audio and power (midi can be sent down standard mic cable) http://www.sommercable.com/2__produkte/2__000_produktuebersicht/2__liste_3 210.html

but I don't see a connector that can carry all (power and audio) (although theydo do a connector that requires no soldering and no special tools, you just put the cable into the required hols/pin and press a button down to lock it in) .

Link italy do a connector that can carry AES Dgital audio, power and ethernet and the AES and ethernet connections could, i suppose, be used with the sommercable to have everything in one connector.
http://www.linkitaly.com/Flip_LK_en/LKConnectors_en.pdf

Otherwise you could just use either a D-SUB or multipin XLR if you only need a few channels (i.e a 6 pin xlr could carry 2 balanced or 3 un-balanced signal, A DB9 (serial type) conector could carry 3 balanced and 4 un-balanced, a DB-15 could carry 5 balanced signals and 7 un-balanced, and DB-25 could carry 8 balanced and 12 un-balanced signals)

Power could be attached using powercon connectors (it's still only 2 connectors and could be done a lot cheaper that a specialised connector)

Also, what Hugh said.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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There certainly are connectors that can handle mains power as well as audio and data, but clearly the standard of construction, wiring and maintenance go up a lot too! Personally, I would keep mains separate on IEC plugs/sockets for convenience and cost, linking between the racks with flying leads or short extensions.

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Sounds good. Can you provide an example of an IEC plug and socket that I would put on an interface? Flying lead? Short extensions? Huh? I'M A TOTAL NOOB HERE!

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Midi and audio can co-exist very happily in the same connectors given sensible pin allocations.

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I assume you mean that I don't run midi wires around, over, or through the audio wires, right? Allocate audio in one area and midi in another?

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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As for the type of connector, the world is your omlette -- or something like that! -- and it really just depends on how many connections are needed (don't forget the benefit of encircling unbalanced audio connections with grounded pins!), and how quiclkly and easily you want to be able to connect things together. MIL plugs are very quick and easy to connect and disconnect, but aren't the easiest to terminate. EDACS are chunky. D-subs are cheaper but a lot more fiddly.

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Well, I looked briefly at those types of connectors. MIL looks the best to me. I like the idea of basically just putting them together quickly and easily. I don't want to fiddle with the EDAC or D-Sub. What do you mean by "they don't terminate easily"? What do you mean by "encircling unbalanced audio with grounded pins?"

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I think you're talking about 5 audio signals (preamp in, stereo FX send, stereo FX return) between the racks -- all presumably unbalanced. That's only ten connections (including separate grounds. Throw in another half dozen for MIDI etc and I'd probably go for MIL plugs if someone else was building it for me, or 25-pin D-subs if not -- both carrying all the audio and MIDI connections! Adopt a compatible variation of the TASCAM protocol and you'll be able to use standard D-sub looms to link your racks, too.
Chuck in some IEC sockets for the mains linking and some speakons for the amp outputs and the job's a good'un

hugh

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Are there different sizes of MIL Plugs? I would like to have something that would always allow a few more slots for expansion if needed. Do I need two female connector plates with male ends on the cable or the other way around?

Thanks for all your help, Hugh! This is all very new to me, but a world I want to venture into in hopes that someday I could possibly build racks for others if (actually when), my musical career comes to a sudden and jarring end...

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www.reverbnation.com/jacksjoy

Quote DGL.:

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Sommer do such a cable (i.e. actual cable which is a multicore consisting of audio and power (midi can be sent down standard mic cable) http://www.sommercable.com/2__produkte/2__000_produktuebersicht/2__liste_3 210.html

but I don't see a connector that can carry all (power and audio) (although theydo do a connector that requires no soldering and no special tools, you just put the cable into the required hols/pin and press a button down to lock it in) .

Link italy do a connector that can carry AES Dgital audio, power and ethernet and the AES and ethernet connections could, i suppose, be used with the sommercable to have everything in one connector.
http://www.linkitaly.com/Flip_LK_en/LKConnectors_en.pdf

Otherwise you could just use either a D-SUB or multipin XLR if you only need a few channels (i.e a 6 pin xlr could carry 2 balanced or 3 un-balanced signal, A DB9 (serial type) conector could carry 3 balanced and 4 un-balanced, a DB-15 could carry 5 balanced signals and 7 un-balanced, and DB-25 could carry 8 balanced and 12 un-balanced signals)

Power could be attached using powercon connectors (it's still only 2 connectors and could be done a lot cheaper that a specialised connector)

Also, what Hugh said.

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Multipin XLR looks good too. What is the difference between that and MIL? Those are a lot cheaper it seems...

If I was to go that route, would I have enough connectors for both audio and midi? Oh yeah...would MIL and/or multipin fit on a 1u space? Or, would I have to get a 2U panel now?

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www.reverbnation.com/jacksjoy

Dependant on the connector you can fit more than one on a 1ru panel (I hav 2 powercons mounted on my studio rack on 1u. The only problem and th only reason why you might want to go for a 2u (or mabey even 3u is so that on side entry multipin connectors you will probably wnat the cable to exit out the bottom when plugged in to ease the srain on te cable.

A 7 pin xlr wil handle
2 signals (mono balanced audio and midi, 2 midi or 1 midi and 2 unbalanced audio lines).

or as said before somer do these http://www.sommercable.com/2__produkte/2__060_steckverbinder/146_ilme_mp/i lme_anleitung.htm

Which are solderless multipin connectors, no crimping tools required either!




Although you would need a 2ru panel to fit them as they look slightly larger than a 1u panel.

Remember, MIDI needs 3 connectors (data+, data- and ground), Balancd audio also needs 3 connectors (hot, cold and ground) I my self would not wire the connectors unbalanced (audio side as it would limit upgrade potential.
MIDI, however, can be sent down the same type of cable as used for mic signals so if you wire all the cnnections as for audio (there should be wiring standards for these connectors and it always means that you can convert cables form audio to midi and vica-versa if necessary.

For power socket conversion, have a multiplug extension wired to a panel mount power connector (either Powercon, IEC or CEE (Powercon's are the smallest and also lock unlike IEC connectors) and plug devices in s normal to the multiplug extension.

Those are some variant on the theme of harting, and will need back shells and the like.

If I was doing it I would probably go for maximum simplicity and flexibility and just get a couple of 1U panels punched for 'D' size XLR cutouts (a standard item from canford/bryant/holt/whoever), then populate with powercon for the mains link, din for midi and probably simple A gage jacks for the audio links, NL2 or NL4 speakon also fit this cutout (All of which are available to fit the 'D size cutout' standard).

This way a damaged connector is not a show stopper and the cables are something that you can replace in a pinch from the local music shop.

Multipins are great, but it feels a little like overkill for this application.

Make up a colour coded loom with some of that expandable braid sleeving and heatshrink and it will take only a few tens of seconds to plug up the half dozen or so circuits required.

Just my take on it.

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

I'm basically with Dan here. The way I see it is that there are two options. A slightly more complex pair of panels that use off the shelf interconnects, or a simpler pair of panels that use a bespoke cable to connect most of the connections.

And when it comes to live work the touchstone has to be 'what are your fall back options?' A more complicated panel allows you to use 'off the shelf' cables if things go wrong. It's just a matter of deciding how many you carry with you and how prepared you are to rely on a local music shop/PA company to supply what you need if required. If you decide to use a bespoke connector, the responsibility is yours to make sure you have spare cables because there's no chance to get replacements off the shelf.

Either method will work, you just need to make sure you have a contingency plan and then stick to it.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Quote dmills:

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Those are some variant on the theme of harting, and will need back shells and the like.

If I was doing it I would probably go for maximum simplicity and flexibility and just get a couple of 1U panels punched for 'D' size XLR cutouts (a standard item from canford/bryant/holt/whoever), then populate with powercon for the mains link, din for midi and probably simple A gage jacks for the audio links, NL2 or NL4 speakon also fit this cutout (All of which are available to fit the 'D size cutout' standard).

This way a damaged connector is not a show stopper and the cables are something that you can replace in a pinch from the local music shop.

Multipins are great, but it feels a little like overkill for this application.

Make up a colour coded loom with some of that expandable braid sleeving and heatshrink and it will take only a few tens of seconds to plug up the half dozen or so circuits required.

Just my take on it.

Regards, Dan.

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Okay... you have me re-contemplating this. If I go with a 1u "D" panel, is there a way that I can have 'feed thru' jacks on it? That way, I can just hook standard cables on the back to connect to my equipment. I really don't want to make all the cables and have to solder them to the panel. I've seen 'feed thru' xlr, usb, and a few other jacks out there.

Personally, I feel I would have the same problem if something went wrong (e.g. one of the cables went bad and I wouldn't be able to simply "plug in" a cable from my effects to the panel because it would be soldered to the jack in the panel). Does this make sense?

Finally...what do you think would be the best route to go?
1.) 1U "D" panel with feed thru jacks or
2.) 1U enclosure (say 4-6" deep) with jacks on the front and back

With option #1, I can quickly order a panel and put feed thru jacks on it..then connect my stuff in the back of it. However, I'm not sure how well those feed thru jacks secure to the panel and I'm afraid of pulling cables in and out will wear on it.

with option #2, I would have to find an enclosure and custom cut the knockouts. Then, I would have to put a jack on each side and solder a wire in-between them in the enclosure. This would take more time, but I would have a nice finished product. If I end up having to move stuff, however, this would create more work than option #1.

So...I'm leaning towards option #1, but want your take on it....

Oh yeah...here is an example of a 1U "D" panel (aluminum) that I am contemplating. Is it worthwhile to get one with a 'support bar' on the back?
http://www.bryant-unlimited.co.uk/XTP%20160

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www.reverbnation.com/jacksjoy

Edited by Jack's Joy (31/08/12 11:19 PM)