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dickiefunk



Joined: 17/06/05
Posts: 2379
Loc: Cornwall, UK
EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup??
      #1038526 - 16/03/13 06:58 PM
Hi,

I've just come from a sound check and the sound company had a a pair of EV ELX 12p and a pair of 118p subs.

The whole band went through the rig (drums, bass, 2x guitars, 2x keys, 3x vocals) and the sound was huge for the rigs size!!

I'm currently using a pair of Yamaha DXR15's and JBL EON 518's which I've been quite happy. I've been particularly pleased with the Yamaha's as they are very clear, full range and loud!! I've not been able to get the most out of the DXR15's because they would be too loud!!
The JBL EON subs however seemed to lacked real bottom end thump and punch. When I play an acoustic piano patch through my rig the piano always sounds thin yet tonight the piano had masses of bottom end, punch and clarity and that was with the desk flat!!?

I've never been really wowed with my JBL EON subs as they've never really given me a big deep and fat bass sound!

Has anyone else had any experience with both the EV ELX and JBL EON subs?
What are your thoughts on these two subs?

Would the EV ELX 118p subs be a good match with the Yamaha DXR15's or should I consider changing my whole rig?

--------------------
www.richardpenrose.com


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TSH-Tim



Joined: 21/02/11
Posts: 828
Loc: Guildford
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: dickiefunk]
      #1038552 - 17/03/13 12:13 AM
Buy yourself some RCF 8003 subs! or just add some eq to the subs..... something like 50hZ Q 3.5 + 7dB will do the trick

--------------------
PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey


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dickiefunk



Joined: 17/06/05
Posts: 2379
Loc: Cornwall, UK
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: TSH-Tim]
      #1038556 - 17/03/13 12:53 AM
Hi Tim,

Thanks for the reply. I got speaking to the sound guy about the rig and for the bass and kick he had massively boosted around 50hZ like you said so I will try this with my rig. I did notice that he really boosted the treble on his system for the vocals, snare, guitars and keys! I haven't needed to do this with my DXR's. Instead I tried out a load of mics and then picked the ones I thought sounded great on the vocalists I work with. Generally the only eq I've needed to do to the vocals is the low cut.

When I first bought my JBL EON 518S subs I was driving them with a Yamaha 01v mixer and had JBL EON 15G2 tops. When I was using this setup my generally had my tops set to around 70% and the subs turned up fully. When I miked up the kick drum the limiter light kept flickering even though I wasn't sending a great deal of kick through them!? It also didn't sound particularly bassy or big?

Since then I replaced the EON 15G2's with a pair of Yamaha DXR15's and changed the 01v for a Presonus Studiolive. With this setup I have both the Yamaha DXR15's and subs turned up to 100% and the main output on the back of my Studiolive generally goes anywhere between 50% and 65% ish.
The limiter light on the JBL subs hasn't flickered once since I upgraded my desk and tops so I could try turning this up more and boosting the 50hZ area where needed for more bass and punch!??

Any other suggestions as to how I've got my rig set up?

I can't help thinking that the EV ELX 118p's would sound great with the Yamaha DXR15's!!??

--------------------
www.richardpenrose.com

Edited by dickiefunk (17/03/13 12:56 AM)


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TheChorltonWheelie



Joined: 22/09/09
Posts: 1099
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: dickiefunk]
      #1038572 - 17/03/13 10:05 AM
Quote dickiefunk:

I could try turning this up more and boosting the 50hZ area where needed for more bass and punch!??




The reason why he's boosting at 50hz is because he's running an 18" sub, they're notoriously sloppy in that range: an 18" sub will never sound as tight/crisp as a 15" sub.

If you're running 18's, with a 50hz boost, in small/medium venues, you'll drive your audience absolutely mental. Unless you're playing large venues, or playing sub-freq dance/dub, I cannot see any positive reason for using an 18" sub.


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TSH-Tim



Joined: 21/02/11
Posts: 828
Loc: Guildford
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: dickiefunk]
      #1038576 - 17/03/13 10:17 AM
ummmm an 18" sub can be very fast indeed and faster than a 15" if loaded right. A lot of these small 15" atcive subs are bandpass which are very slow You put the right 18" driver in a BPH cabinet and your have speed, depth & SPL..... just look at the F218 well know for being pin tight and fast.

Giving your sub a bit of EQ round 50hz will help but if its the punch your after notch it up a little around the 75hz - 85hz mark. Different venues behave differently so don't treat it as a 1 stop solution.

It could just be that your using the wrong mics, placed wrong, bad eq and the placement of the system isn't helping......

--------------------
PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey


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dickiefunk



Joined: 17/06/05
Posts: 2379
Loc: Cornwall, UK
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: TSH-Tim]
      #1038580 - 17/03/13 11:22 AM
Yes I agree about picking the right mics and placement.

For the kick drum we usually use an Audix D6. The kick drum I normally mic is well tuned and sounds great acoustically. I normally experiment with placement to find the best sound.

What struck me most about the EV rig last night was the sheer amount of bottom end I was getting with an acoustic piano patch and the desk was totally flat!! When I've tried this through my rig it lacks so much bass in comparison!!?

I was also even more surprised to find that his EV subs were turned up to around 60-70%!! I have mine on full and get nowhere near the amount of bass.

The EV rig sounded way bigger than it actually is. The room was a holiday camp that held around 300. The manager asked the sound company to turn it down as the rig was so loud. The sound engineer told us he wasn't even cranking the rig up!!? Ceilings were pretty low. Maybe some of it was due to the room?

As I mentioned, my rig is only working on about 60% so I'll try turning this up and experiment a little more with eq etc.

The EV subs are quoted to go up to 134db compared to my JBLs 129db.

--------------------
www.richardpenrose.com


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joncthomas



Joined: 16/03/13
Posts: 3
Loc: Montana
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: dickiefunk]
      #1038788 - 19/03/13 12:19 AM
Take all manufactures specification with a grain of salt. 134db is impossible @ 50hz with 700watts in a ported box of that size.


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dickiefunk



Joined: 17/06/05
Posts: 2379
Loc: Cornwall, UK
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: joncthomas]
      #1038878 - 19/03/13 02:40 PM
Quote joncthomas:

Take all manufactures specification with a grain of salt. 134db is impossible @ 50hz with 700watts in a ported box of that size.




Interesting. Saying that, the EV ELX118p sub did sound massive for its size! Sounded way bigger and louder than my JBL EON 518S!

--------------------
www.richardpenrose.com


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 4033
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: joncthomas]
      #1038907 - 19/03/13 06:38 PM
Quote joncthomas:

Take all manufactures specification with a grain of salt. 134db is impossible @ 50hz with 700watts in a ported box of that size.




While I certainly agree with you that all specs should be taken with a grain of salt, I would like to know how you came to the conclusion it is 'impossible'. I should also note that the specs for the ELX118p don't say 134dB at 50Hz at 700W, it says 134dBSPL@1m, and that is all. Which could mean a variety of things, since they don't specify for instance the type of audio signal used for this, whether it is a single frequency at 50Hz like you mention, or whether it is a full bandwidth signal (32-130Hz are their -10dB points in the specs supposedly for the 118p) or otherwise.

So yes take with a grain of salt, but I am still curious why you say it is impossible.

Seablade


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Falconhell



Joined: 16/01/11
Posts: 75
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: seablade]
      #1039177 - 21/03/13 03:28 AM
You should try turning your Yamaha tops down to bring up the relative level of the subs. Start at 70% top and 100% bottom and adjust to taste. The %!* subs should sound plenty loud, but I reckon the tops have more gain than the bottoms so you need less tops and turn up overall level to run subs harder.


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TheChorltonWheelie



Joined: 22/09/09
Posts: 1099
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: Falconhell]
      #1039186 - 21/03/13 08:48 AM
Quote Falconhell:

Start at 70% top and 100% bottom and adjust to taste.




You should be running the speakers at 100%, adjust the volume from the desk. If you run the speaker at 70%, and then run the main fader too high, you have a real risk of blowing drivers. No doubt Seablade will add sensible science to this, but in essence it's correct.


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Mike Stranks
active member


Joined: 03/01/03
Posts: 3948
Loc: Oxford, UK
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: dickiefunk]
      #1039192 - 21/03/13 09:32 AM
Ah! The old 'amp up full; control with the fader' vs 'gain-structure set throughout the system and end volume adjusted accordingly' debate! It's about time it reappeared!

For the record, I am of the second option described above.

Discuss....


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 4033
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: Mike Stranks]
      #1039245 - 21/03/13 02:19 PM
See if there is one thing I have learned it is not to repeat myself, especially if I can just point to where I said it before. YEA INTERNETS!

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=LIVE&Num ber=507536&fpart=

You will find an exceedingly informative read there, even though that was close to 5 years ago now, I still point people to it to read through to understand amp gain structure.

My post below on setting up gain structure throughout a system would also be recommended reading...

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=LIVE&Num ber=363362&fpart=

Seablade

/me lazy...

EDIT: My Fault, that was nearly 6 years ago now... dang...


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TSH-Tim



Joined: 21/02/11
Posts: 828
Loc: Guildford
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: joncthomas]
      #1039330 - 22/03/13 02:18 AM
Quote joncthomas:

Take all manufactures specification with a grain of salt. 134db is impossible @ 50hz with 700watts in a ported box of that size.




Or its filled with magic

--------------------
PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey


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dickiefunk



Joined: 17/06/05
Posts: 2379
Loc: Cornwall, UK
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: dickiefunk]
      #1052844 - 16/06/13 10:25 PM
I recently took the plunge on a pair of ELX 118P's and have to say they are quite a step up. I've immediately noticed way more output from the EV's!
Have only done a couple of gigs and not really had a chance to fully explore their capabilities but the limiter light hasn't flickered yet whereas the JBL's were constantly flickering.

--------------------
www.richardpenrose.com


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OneEng



Joined: 28/04/13
Posts: 180
Loc: MI
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: dickiefunk]
      #1052854 - 17/06/13 02:18 AM
I would say that the EV ELX 118p's may well be an upgrade over your EON's (never been a fan myself of the EON's); however, considering the price ($800.00 USD) for the ELX118p, and the price reduction on the JBL PRX618S-XLF (~$1100.00 USD), I would highly recommend the XLF's instead.

The other thing to consider is the cross-over in the various subs. The XLF has a relatively low cutoff frequency of 90 Hz. I think this would work very well with your DXR15'S which will likely punch quite a bit more when handling the additional LF load this cross-over point will provide.

Just to give you an idea of relative sound, I would say that a single XLF would keep up with a pair of ELX 118p's, and sound better while doing it. These subs use the same driver as JBL's powered touring subs (VRX) line of subs. They are by far and away the best thump for the buck out there IMHO.

Hope this helps.


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dickiefunk



Joined: 17/06/05
Posts: 2379
Loc: Cornwall, UK
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: dickiefunk]
      #1052860 - 17/06/13 05:52 AM
I managed to score a great one off deal on a pair of ELX 118P's for £1015 a pair as one if them had been taken out the box for demo!
The JBL PRX618XLF's cost more than that each in the UK. They are also bigger and heavier than the EV's. The EV's are as heavy as I can manage by myself and the JBL'S wouldn't quite fit into my small van with all the other gear I carry.
Also I spoke to a few people that had heard both who said the EV'S were at least on a par as the JBL'S and some even preferred them.

--------------------
www.richardpenrose.com


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OneEng



Joined: 28/04/13
Posts: 180
Loc: MI
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: dickiefunk]
      #1053001 - 17/06/13 10:10 PM
Quote dickiefunk:

I managed to score a great one off deal on a pair of ELX 118P's for £1015 a pair as one if them had been taken out the box for demo!
The JBL PRX618XLF's cost more than that each in the UK. They are also bigger and heavier than the EV's. The EV's are as heavy as I can manage by myself and the JBL'S wouldn't quite fit into my small van with all the other gear I carry.
Also I spoke to a few people that had heard both who said the EV'S were at least on a par as the JBL'S and some even preferred them.




That is a pretty great deal!

I haven't heard anyone that have heard both the ELX118p and the PRX618S-XLF that thought the EV's were on par (including myself), but at half the price, the ELX is hard to pass up.

Most people that do higher end sound agree that the PRX618S-XLF is as good or even a hair better sounding than the SRX718 properly powered and processed.

I had never picked up the EV's before, but not only are they lighter, they are quite a bit lighter. I did notice they were somewhat smaller than the XLF's (but then so is the PRX618S).

To my ear, the powered subs lined up like this:

Most powerful - LS801p (but God awful heavy)
Next most powerful - KW181, PRX618S-XLF, CVA118
And then - ELX118p, PRX618S, SRM1801, DSR118

As for sound quality:

Best - PRX618S-XLF
Next up - KW181
And then - all the rest

Of course, for the price you got your subs, they would hands down win in value.


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 4033
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: OneEng]
      #1053003 - 17/06/13 10:19 PM
Quote OneEng:


Of course, for the price you got your subs, they would hands down win in value.




Ignoring the subjective assessments for right now... FYI, on our side of the pond they (The ELX) are significantly cheaper than the price quoted above, as I just checked and I can get them for about $600 a sub.

Seablade


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OneEng



Joined: 28/04/13
Posts: 180
Loc: MI
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: seablade]
      #1053023 - 18/06/13 02:54 AM
Quote seablade:

Quote OneEng:


Of course, for the price you got your subs, they would hands down win in value.




Ignoring the subjective assessments for right now... FYI, on our side of the pond they (The ELX) are significantly cheaper than the price quoted above, as I just checked and I can get them for about $600 a sub.

Seablade




Of course my subjective opinion is just that. My opinion. YMMV. I did spend quite a bit of time auditioning subs under quite a few different recordings in store as well as talking with many bands using various subs. After getting my XLF's I did an exhaustive sound analysis between passive folded horns, the CVA118's and the XLF's all of which I actually gigged on.

I haven't found anywhere I could find pricing on ELX118p's for $600.00 USD. The MAP on these is $799.00, while the MAP on the XLF's is currently ~ $1,149.00 (it was $1299). I got mine a year ago for $1100.00 ea. I suspect I could get them for ~ $1000.00 with the price drop.

It could be easily argued that the ELX is not in the same price catagory as the XLF's ($350.00 represents 43% over the ELX's). When you price in two, this is a pretty big difference in price.

The best way to put subjective sound analysis to rest is to go to a store and hear them yourself. I understand that this isn't as easy in Europe as it is here in the US where most of us are within 1 hour of a Guitar Center with a wealth of pro audio speakers you can audition to your hearts content.

Shy of hearing them yourself, there are quite a few reviews of these two particular speakers all over the web. I have yet to read one that thought the ELX was a match for the XLF's, but then considering the price difference, I wouldn't expect it either.

The best portable powered subs I ever heard was in Cancun where I heard Train and LifeHouse on the beach with a Meyer system playing for around 200 people at Xcaret park (if you can believe such a silly thing). That was an impressive sounding system! Of course, the price of this system was likely higher than some people's homes I do have pictures and video to validate I wasn't just drunk


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dickiefunk



Joined: 17/06/05
Posts: 2379
Loc: Cornwall, UK
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: OneEng]
      #1053081 - 18/06/13 09:55 AM
Quote OneEng:



Of course, for the price you got your subs, they would hands down win in value.




Yes I am particularly happy with the deal I got on the ELX118p's. Value for money was a very important factor when I was shopping around. When you consider the JBL PRX618XLF's cost around £1200 each in the UK and my EV's cost £1015 for the pair I think they were a bit of a bargain.

As for how the EV's compare to the PRX618 XLF's in regards to performance I can't personally comment as I've not heard the JBL's and can only go from some other peoples experiences. Naturally, I would need to try them myself to be able to pass judgement on the JBL's. However, the JBL's were never an option for me due to their price, weight and size. I wouldn't be able to justify spending £2400 on subs unless I was a dedicated sound company. Saying that, I know of at least one sound company the used an EV ELX rig and the sound they had was excellent and huge!!

The EV's fit my requirements well regarding sound, size, portability and cost and don't know of anything that would better them for £1015 a pair.

--------------------
www.richardpenrose.com


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 4033
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: OneEng]
      #1053132 - 18/06/13 03:27 PM
Quote OneEng:


I haven't found anywhere I could find pricing on ELX118p's for $600.00 USD. The MAP on these is $799.00, while the MAP on the XLF's is currently ~ $1,149.00 (it was $1299). I got mine a year ago for $1100.00 ea. I suspect I could get them for ~ $1000.00 with the price drop.





Well two things, one you can't go by the MAP as it is often different from the street price. The problem being that places like Guitar Center, Sam Ash, etc. only ever charge the MAP price by default. Well one of the problems anyways. I don't ever buy audio equipment from them unless I have to. They also make a very poor place to audition speakers to be honest, but that is a different story.

Aside from all this, you seem to be assuming I was disagreeing with you, I was literally meaning I was ignoring the subjective portion as I don't have much opinion on it in this range of things. and really didn't feel like typing out my experiences as a result.

Seablade


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OneEng



Joined: 28/04/13
Posts: 180
Loc: MI
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: dickiefunk]
      #1053160 - 18/06/13 07:00 PM
Quote dickiefunk:

Quote OneEng:



Of course, for the price you got your subs, they would hands down win in value.




Yes I am particularly happy with the deal I got on the ELX118p's. Value for money was a very important factor when I was shopping around. When you consider the JBL PRX618XLF's cost around £1200 each in the UK and my EV's cost £1015 for the pair I think they were a bit of a bargain.

As for how the EV's compare to the PRX618 XLF's in regards to performance I can't personally comment as I've not heard the JBL's and can only go from some other peoples experiences. Naturally, I would need to try them myself to be able to pass judgement on the JBL's. However, the JBL's were never an option for me due to their price, weight and size. I wouldn't be able to justify spending £2400 on subs unless I was a dedicated sound company. Saying that, I know of at least one sound company the used an EV ELX rig and the sound they had was excellent and huge!!

The EV's fit my requirements well regarding sound, size, portability and cost and don't know of anything that would better them for £1015 a pair.




Sounds like it was a good fit for you.

As for sound quality, I think in this range of FOH speakers, the quality of the soundman behind the mixer is going to have far more impact on your sound than the differences in sound quality from one speaker in this range to the next.

seablade,

True, you can't go by MAP; however, if you are going to state prices on what you are able to get as deals on one brand, you need to also use the deals you can get on the other as well. I think it is likely not much of a point in this discussion since I also believe you can likely get better deals on an ELX sub than you can on a XLF sub.

If an XLF is really £1200 ($1560.00 usd) in Europe then they are crazy expensive there. Wow.

I also agree that auditioning speakers at GC isn't representative of how they will sound in a real venue; however, it is still better than not hearing them at all


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mojo filters



Joined: 28/12/12
Posts: 20
Re: EV ELX 118p vs JBL EON 518S subs with this setup?? new [Re: OneEng]
      #1054893 - 30/06/13 04:58 PM
Quote OneEng:

Quote dickiefunk:

Quote OneEng:



Of course, for the price you got your subs, they would hands down win in value.




Yes I am particularly happy with the deal I got on the ELX118p's. Value for money was a very important factor when I was shopping around. When you consider the JBL PRX618XLF's cost around £1200 each in the UK and my EV's cost £1015 for the pair I think they were a bit of a bargain.

As for how the EV's compare to the PRX618 XLF's in regards to performance I can't personally comment as I've not heard the JBL's and can only go from some other peoples experiences. Naturally, I would need to try them myself to be able to pass judgement on the JBL's. However, the JBL's were never an option for me due to their price, weight and size. I wouldn't be able to justify spending £2400 on subs unless I was a dedicated sound company. Saying that, I know of at least one sound company the used an EV ELX rig and the sound they had was excellent and huge!!

The EV's fit my requirements well regarding sound, size, portability and cost and don't know of anything that would better them for £1015 a pair.




Sounds like it was a good fit for you.

As for sound quality, I think in this range of FOH speakers, the quality of the soundman behind the mixer is going to have far more impact on your sound than the differences in sound quality from one speaker in this range to the next.

seablade,

True, you can't go by MAP; however, if you are going to state prices on what you are able to get as deals on one brand, you need to also use the deals you can get on the other as well. I think it is likely not much of a point in this discussion since I also believe you can likely get better deals on an ELX sub than you can on a XLF sub.

If an XLF is really £1200 ($1560.00 usd) in Europe then they are crazy expensive there. Wow.

I also agree that auditioning speakers at GC isn't representative of how they will sound in a real venue; however, it is still better than not hearing them at all




As far as UK prices go, in general I normally count on paying the same in £ as the MAP in $, especially when it comes to brands like QSC, JBL and EV - yep stuff from across the pond, especially with an orange badge, is often "crazy expensive"!

Also we don't get value brands like Yorkville, and Euro-based brands (eg d&b, RCF/dB Tech) still tend to end up with the cheapest $ price equalling the best £ Sterling price available; same with Scandinavian brands such as Lab.Gruppen.

Conversely when it comes to home-grown brands such as Funktion One, Turbosound and even KV2, the US prices once again often equal the converted £ Sterling, as we don't get the same volume discounting American customers benefit from.

A UK purchaser struggles to get better pricing than that described above for a JBL 618-XLF without access to dealer pricing and discounts, and when it comes to comparisons it's a crapshoot when it comes to what individual dealers have available to compare and listen to in one sitting. For small potential purchases, particularly for high-end kit such as L'Acoustics, Nexo or Meyer, it's not uncommon to have dealers refer you to recent installs they did, so you have another set of hassles to overcome, although other dealers can bend over backwards to help, especially when you already have a history of purchasing high-end items with them or their affiliates.

And when it comes to more esoteric makes such as Danley Sound Labs, there's only one (albeit very helpful) UK supplier who understandably doesn't have the whole range in stock. If you want to hear the best and latest work from a small manufacturer such as Dave Gunness's Fulcrum, I don't think there's anyone representing them in the UK ... On the flip side we have our own esoteric mfrs such as EM Acoustics, though again the opportunity to demo is quite limited.

The above may represent worst case scenarios for UK purchasers, but I think it's fair to say those folks used to the common North American practices, service and particularly pricing (especially in the larger metropolitan areas) would get a bit of culture shock if they expected the equivalent over here!

--------------------
...no one goes home humming the kick drum


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