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shindigger
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Posts: 211
Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish.
      #1082315 - 08/01/14 12:55 PM
Just to say, i'm on my 2nd unit from 2 different suppliers in as many days.
They have both arrived with faults.
One humming like a bastard out of one channel, and the other hissing on one channel and virtually dead on the other.
This is my first venture in to Behringer land as on paper at least, this seemed a good piece of kit for conference AV.
I had read that their reputation was improved. It would seem not to be the case.
Complete waste of time.
I will not be returning to Behringer land.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082318 - 08/01/14 01:15 PM
I presume you checked your cables thoroughly before concluding that both Behringer units were faulty -- if only because the faults you describe could easily be cable-related.

Behringer claims it has improved QC and I'm sure it's trying, but this is still bargain basement equipment. Nevertheless two such serious faults on two different products from unrelated suppliers seems pretty unusual.

H

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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shindigger
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082320 - 08/01/14 01:36 PM
Hello Hugh.
Yes all cables checked, and swapped out twice over.
The first unit worked ok-ish, just had a low hum on one output channel.
The second, loud hiss in one channel, and dead the other side.

I thought their stuff had moved up a notch re reliability.
Certainly this unit gets good/rave reviews all over the net.
I wont be trusting my reputation with them again.
Happily neither unit got out the door before the faults were discovered.

One of the units was a refurb, direct from their UK distributor.
Disappointing and a waste of time.

Edited by shindigger (08/01/14 01:38 PM)


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Persian Bit



Joined: 02/03/12
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Loc: Tehran \ IRAN
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082321 - 08/01/14 01:38 PM
You gotta be extremly unlucky to receive two damaged units. as commented, cables can be behind your problem.

I've been using their stuff for 10 years mostly for live engineering. Believe me, I don't have any friendship with that company, but I haven't had any problem with my purchases. We still use their Euroedesk 9000 for rehearsal and FOH mixing along with lots of outboards [including their feedback destroyers, EQ, Fx,etc.]. Maybe I'm extremly lucky, but we haven't experienced anything wrong with them.

Cheap prices and sometimes smart products have been the reason behind our purchases, and I completely agree that the overal quality is not top notch. but you get what you pay for.

For sure, all stories about faulty devices and problems come from real experiences. But I also guess their cheap prices and simple designs attract a lot of young musicians who are just learning the job and may not be aware of possible mistakes.

A few weeks ago a college dude was complaining about how sh!ty his new purchased audio interface is. He had returned it and recived a new one, but the problem was still there. Upon my question, he was upset with the unit's very low gain and lots of noises and hiss. After a simple check, I found out he'd been using Line inputs on his interface for Mic\Guitar sources! It was only about pushing an small "Mic\Line' switch,and before the check, he was dead sure the units is broken... :-)

ps. I bought all those Beh gears from local stores and not ordering online, so I was able to test the units before taking them home. Maybe that would make a difference.

Edited by Persian Bit (08/01/14 01:40 PM)


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shindigger
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: Persian Bit]
      #1082322 - 08/01/14 01:39 PM
Ive got no cable issues whatsoever.
Guaranteed.
Neutrik and Van Damme all the way.
Double checked.

By the way im 47 and been doing this for years.
If that helps.

Edited by shindigger (08/01/14 01:40 PM)


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Persian Bit



Joined: 02/03/12
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082323 - 08/01/14 01:43 PM
Of course you're an experienced guy my friend. I wasn't pointing to you by refering to young dudes. It was an overall comment cause I've seen it a lot.

By the way I know how disappointing it is be in such situation and I feel for you. Hopefully you can return them and get rid of that.


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shindigger
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: Persian Bit]
      #1082325 - 08/01/14 01:51 PM
Cheers. Please excuse my tetchiness.
Am hacked off, with myself as much as anything, for bothering with this stuff.
Got 2 boxes in my front room, waiting to go back. Better not mix them up!!

Anyone used this?
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/QF215/

I figure as i'm buying an EQ i might as well have the flashing feedback lights.
If not, i'll probably buy the DBX 215.


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: Persian Bit]
      #1082329 - 08/01/14 02:26 PM
Quote Persian Bit:


I've been using their stuff for 10 years mostly for live engineering. Believe me, I don't have any friendship with that company, but I haven't had any problem with my purchases. We still use their Euroedesk 9000 for rehearsal and FOH mixing along with lots of outboards [including their feedback destroyers, EQ, Fx,etc.]. Maybe I'm extremly lucky, but we haven't experienced anything wrong with them.





You have been EXTREMELY lucky.

Sad to say the experience provided by the OP is not uncommon for Behringer in my experience, part of why I do my best to avoid them, and why I haven't bought an x32 despite it's good reviews. I simply can't afford to risk the reputation and past experience repeating, even if I am told that it is great kit (And in fact I have mixed on them before and it wasn't bad).

I would go so far as to say the OP has been lucky in that the problems were apparent out of the box. Just as typical is for them to fail suddenly down the road at a very inopportune time.

Seablade


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shindigger
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: seablade]
      #1082333 - 08/01/14 02:43 PM
Amen. This was my first and last dabble with Behringer.
If i was retailing this stuff, i would check every box before it went out.
(Probably impossible i know).
I'm looking at combined courier fees of about £35-40 to get this stuff back to the sellers.
Happily all covered by the retailers.

What a waste of time.


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Music Wolf



Joined: 17/02/06
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082340 - 08/01/14 02:55 PM
I actually caught myself considering a purchase of a 1502 within the last couple of days but then I thought - don't be silly, you'll only regret it.

My experiences with Behringer gear have been somewhat different. I can't actually recall a product failing, it's always been a case of me regretting buying cut price (you do generally get what you pay for in this world). Almost all of my Behringer gear has been consigned to the scrap heap. The exceptions being my headphone amp (which is fit for purpose) and my GI100 DI box with cab simulation (sort of Red Box lookalike) which I find is excellent for bass. In fact only the other week a friend was asking me how I good such a great bass sound on a recording.

Worst purchase ever - Behringer Truth monitors.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082341 - 08/01/14 02:55 PM
Quote shindigger:

Yes all cables checked, and swapped out twice over.




Fair enough.

Quote:

The first unit worked ok-ish, just had a low hum on one output channel.
The second, loud hiss in one channel, and dead the other side.




Not impressive QC then...

Quote:

I thought their stuff had moved up a notch re reliability.




That's certainly the claim they've been making in recent times... maybe these were old-stock units (he said clutching at melting straws! )

H

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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shindigger
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1082349 - 08/01/14 03:38 PM
The concept is a good one.
Shame the quality doesn't match up.
That said, it was the many good reviews that lured me in, against my better judgement.

And yes, they could have both been new old stock as the first was a refurb from their HQ.
This was actually less bad than the "new" one from another, better known, supplier.

Edited by shindigger (08/01/14 03:41 PM)


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shindigger
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: Music Wolf]
      #1082350 - 08/01/14 03:42 PM
I'm going after one of these i think.
5 year warranty to boot.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/QF215/


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082354 - 08/01/14 04:08 PM
Will 15 bands provide enough resolution? Have you looked at the DBX 231S?

http://www.thomann.de/gb/dbx_231s.htm

Not much more expensive, but a proper 31-band graphic.

H

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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DGL.



Joined: 28/10/11
Posts: 558
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082355 - 08/01/14 04:13 PM
All I'll say is that going from the x32 thread on soundforums.net and the fact they have sold 30,000+ X32's and that only a few problems have surfaced (an incorrect cable routing and incorrect fitting of a belt on the motor faders) they seem to be doing much better on the qc front, although, that is a product miles away in quality from a lot of their cheaper stuff.

Yes QC has been shoddy to say the least in the past, my 1832FX had a channel go down in just over a year and slowly deteriorated after that, but then you do get a lot for your money.
Maybe the Midas/KT/Turbosound influence might start to trickle down to the cheaper ranges.


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seablade



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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: DGL.]
      #1082360 - 08/01/14 04:17 PM
Quote DGL.:


Maybe the Midas/KT/Turbosound influence might start to trickle down to the cheaper ranges.




My real concern is influence trickling in the opposite direction.

Seablade


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shindigger
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1082363 - 08/01/14 04:24 PM
Hi Hugh
Well, i really only need this for ringing out rooms for conference work.
I'm fairly sure i want to stay the other side of the mic where live sound is concerned.
Corporate AV is better paid, and you don't get your SM58s helpfully dunked in pints at the end of the gig.
Yes this DID happen to me once...

As i already own a Mackie VLZ desk, I decided to build a system with "seperates", rather than the Mixer/Amp/GEQ combo. Its prime purpose will be controlling lapel mics.
Have A/B'd with my back up Mackie PPM box, and i have to say i made the right choice.
Sounds WAAAAY better.

The 5/6 band GEQ on a Powerstation or a Powermate always seemed to be adequate in conference land, so i'm hoping 15 bands is fine for vox plus programme music.
I'm a one man operation, in a Ford Focus, so am only punting for 150 heads or so max.
I know my limits.

Cheers.


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DGL.



Joined: 28/10/11
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: seablade]
      #1082364 - 08/01/14 04:33 PM
Quote seablade:

Quote DGL.:


Maybe the Midas/KT/Turbosound influence might start to trickle down to the cheaper ranges.




My real concern is influence trickling in the opposite direction.

Seablade




I don't think that will happen, yes the x32 tech may go into a cheaper MIDAS but that isn't too bad.
I think Uli knows it's important to keep the high end brands profile up as it makes a good beacon for the music group. He has a lot invested in those companies and I'm sure he would not want to see them fall and all his money with it.
Plus he now has a company that can provide the kit for full pro installs, Midas Mixers, KT EQ and Processing and Turbosound speakers.


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 4008
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082365 - 08/01/14 04:34 PM
Quote shindigger:

Hi Hugh
Well, i really only need this for ringing out rooms for conference work.
I'm fairly sure i want to stay the other side of the mic where live sound is concerned.
Corporate AV is better paid, and you don't get your SM58s helpfully dunked in pints at the end of the gig.
Yes this DID happen to me once...

As i already own a Mackie VLZ desk, I decided to build a system with "seperates", rather than the Mixer/Amp/GEQ combo. Its prime purpose will be controlling lapel mics.
Have A/B'd with my back up Mackie PPM box, and i have to say i made the right choice.
Sounds WAAAAY better.

The 5/6 band GEQ on a Powerstation or a Powermate always seemed to be adequate in conference land, so i'm hoping 15 bands is fine for vox plus programme music.
I'm a one man operation, in a Ford Focus, so am only punting for 150 heads or so max.
I know my limits.

Cheers.




Personally I would still look at the dBX 31 band for this, but to each their own:) I am not a particularly large fan of Peavey either though.

Seablade


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shindigger
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: seablade]
      #1082369 - 08/01/14 04:54 PM
Will browse the range! It does seem that DBX are the go to box.
I did read a few less than glowing words re the Peavey too.
It's possible i'll get my hands on a freebie 2 channel Sabine in the not too distant future, so i might hold fire.


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ef37a



Joined: 29/05/06
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: Music Wolf]
      #1082371 - 08/01/14 05:14 PM
Quote Music Wolf:

I actually caught myself considering a purchase of a 1502 within the last couple of days but then I thought - don't be silly, you'll only regret it.

My experiences with Behringer gear have been somewhat different. I can't actually recall a product failing, it's always been a case of me regretting buying cut price (you do generally get what you pay for in this world). Almost all of my Behringer gear has been consigned to the scrap heap. The exceptions being my headphone amp (which is fit for purpose) and my GI100 DI box with cab simulation (sort of Red Box lookalike) which I find is excellent for bass. In fact only the other week a friend was asking me how I good such a great bass sound on a recording.

Worst purchase ever - Behringer Truth monitors.




Well, you always have to be suspicious of any low priced gear that uses such terms as "truth" or "Pro"! Usually it is porkies and it ain't! (The M-Audio Fast track "Pro" wasn't but it WAS well put together, worked like a stove and I have never read of one going wrong?).

My Behringer experience is: Bad, good, bad. I had a BCA 2000 interface, thrice.I Fixed the last one once but could not be arsed to do it a second time. A Xenyx 802 mixer on the other hand did sterling service into a 2496 for 2 years and has since run mics from my garden for another 2 without batting a LED. The product tester at B's described a Berry active DI box as a crock of ***t.
Forgot the UCA202. Very good value for money if all you need to do is dub some tapes into a PC. Sort of OK for dubbing vinyl from a hi fi rig but I prefer to use 24bits for that.



Dave.


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 3248
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082373 - 08/01/14 05:15 PM
Funny enough, the much discussed weaknesses of Behringer kit means any unit that lasts more than a year is probably worth picking up second hand. Anything that can fail has already done so and will be pretty obvious to the trained eye/ear.

I have several feedback destroyers on wedges, a 2x15 EQ on IEM duty and a dual channel DI box which makes an excellent nutcracker.

--------------------
Dear Mr God,
We called but you were out - B Dylan Deliveries (Intntl)


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The Red Bladder



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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082376 - 08/01/14 05:24 PM
If you want cheap AND reliable, the magic answer is Phonic.

As for Behringer, it is not as if you have not been warned! Time and time and time again, people warned others that their products are below any acceptable standard.

I cannot even begin to describe just how badly built some of their products are and yet their are still numpties out there, paying good money for products that sooner or later (usually sooner) are not going to work any more.


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shufflebeat



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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #1082377 - 08/01/14 05:33 PM
Quote The Red Bladder:

If you want cheap AND reliable, the magic answer is Phonic.




Sounding half decent would be a prerequisite too. I used to play with a chap who didn't want to pay the nominal amount I charged for PA, saying "I'll use my bloody own for free" (tight git).

We used his Phonic mixer amp once and it was so excruciating I waived my charge for future gigs.

--------------------
Dear Mr God,
We called but you were out - B Dylan Deliveries (Intntl)


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niallharp



Joined: 03/12/04
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082379 - 08/01/14 05:36 PM
I had a little mixer which I used for three years to stop mice coming up through a hole in the floor. Never let me down. Best use I ever got of Behringer equipment. True Story. People may say they've gotten better. Well, they had the worst reputation in the audio industry, so they'd really have to. I just spoke to a corporate AV company guy who just sent back their x32's, so maybe they haven't got that much better...There are many reasons not to buy Behringer, not least of which is their reverse engineering of other peoples products. That's just bad for business for everybody. Save up and buy something designed and made by people with phd's who have invested a lifetime in audio. It'll be more expensive, but it'll sound good and work for years. Buying expensive [ ****** ] is cheaper.


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ef37a



Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 6790
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #1082382 - 08/01/14 06:06 PM
Quote The Red Bladder:

If you want cheap AND reliable, the magic answer is Phonic.

As for Behringer, it is not as if you have not been warned! Time and time and time again, people warned others that their products are below any acceptable standard.

I cannot even begin to describe just how badly built some of their products are and yet their are still numpties out there, paying good money for products that sooner or later (usually sooner) are not going to work any more.




Hmm, And Uli never DID come in for that Q&A session!

Dave.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: niallharp]
      #1082385 - 08/01/14 06:31 PM
Quote niallharp:

There are many reasons not to buy Behringer, not least of which is their reverse engineering of other peoples products. That's just bad for business for everybody.




Agreed... but I don't think any of the B products introduced in the last year or two have been reverse engineered -- please correct me if I'm wrong. I know some of the old 'borrowed' stuff is still on the books, but I think the company has genuinely changed direction in recent years. It will take a long, long time to shed the undesirable image though...

H

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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shindigger
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #1082386 - 08/01/14 06:43 PM
You are correct that i had been warned. This is the first Behringer escapade i have been on.
I wouldn't have trusted their amps or their mixers at any stage for any money, (along with Phonic funnily enough, have seen 2 power amps cark it within the last year) but this thing had good reviews.
The concept, as i said earlier, within its remit, is a good one. Leaving aside the looks down the noses of those that don't need something like this to ring out a room.
I don't either really within my field of operation, but thought i would give one a blast.
I went all over the net researching this particular door stop and couldn't find much, if any reference to bricking.
A solid 4 out of 5 everywhere i looked.
I am no cheapskate, and am not prepared to trust my reputation to rubbish.

Maybe i've been unlucky, but as someone else pointed out, i've been lucky too.
In that the true horror of this tat, showed itself before things got serious.
Bullet dodged.

Edited by shindigger (08/01/14 06:46 PM)


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N.icholas



Joined: 10/05/04
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Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: ef37a]
      #1082583 - 09/01/14 04:04 PM
Quote ef37a
Hmm, And Uli never DID come in for that Q&A session!

Dave.




But he did on sound forums net - for those who haven't followed it a couple of his early posts may be of interest - point for discussion!

e.g 1 interesting comment re manufacturing in China

:


ear Jack,

Thank you for your honest comments. While I would argue with some of the assertions, I do respect your point of view and the passion with which you write. Allow me to offer my view.

When I started the company in Germany 23 years ago, I set out to create great product, and do it at a low cost in order to make products available for people who do not have deep pockets. Having been a student with no money myself, I understand the difficulty aspiring musicians have and hence it became my philosophy in life and later the Company philosophy to offer the best possible products at the best possible price.

Admittedly it was easier to maintain low product costs when we were a tiny business literally working out of a barn. Even in those days though we took great care in our designs, board layouts, sought out the best parts and built our products to be reliable and affordable. In those early days I designed everything myself – from the mechanical and circuit design to the PCB layout and I even assembled the products myself. I do understand processes and manufacturing and even today I spend much of my time in our factory as this is where we put a tremendous focus.

20 years ago we moved our manufacturing to Asia in pursuit of lower cost and frankly, better yields. As our volume grew dramatically we discovered that the batch manufacturing we were doing in Germany was no longer able to keep up with demand. So we moved our exact same designs, the exact same parts and the exact same processes to the lower-cost and higher-volume of a contract manufacturer in China.

Obviously there were growing pains as 20 years ago, we were the first audio company to move production to China and no experienced audio manufacturer existed. In order to oversee production I relocated to HK and China and taught those manufacturers how to produce audio products. Ironically today these are the exact same manufacturers who make products for our competitors.

The reality of manufacturing in China is that you must control it or it can wipe you out. We learned that quickly, but those early missteps still haunt us today. In the early years we used 3rd party manufacturers such as Kwanasia and others who had little experience with audio products. Also it is common knowledge that those manufacturers substitute parts behind your back in order to maximize profit and your work instructions only last for the time that you are in the factory and are reversed when you leave. Interesting is that Kwanasia whom we abandoned for quality reasons now manufactures for brands such as Avid, Soundcraft, Peavey etc.

Frankly it is a losing battle and this made us decide to open our own manufacturing plant over 10 years ago. Today we are one of the very few companies who own the manufacturing plant and we are proud of our dedicated people and the quality systems. Was it easy? Absolutely not, but it was worth the pain as today it is a huge competitive advantage.

When we acquired Midas, their people made it very clear to me that they would only agree to move manufacturing to China if we would invest in the most sophisticated equipment and they came up with a list that made us spend US$ 20 million last year. We built one of the most high-tech and automated plants in the world with high-precision SMT machines, in-circuit testers, optical inspection systems that automatically check every solder joint and x-ray equipment that can “see” through multilayer boards with fine-pitch and ball-grid parts.

In return however I requested Midas to send their best engineers to be based in China and run the plant. This was the deal and today we have achieved amazing quality and a great teamwork. All our Behringer and Bugera products are now also made on the same equipment and as a result quality is among the best in the business; which is well documented.

Our quality has increased so much that we also introduced a 3-Year Warranty program at the beginning of this year. To be perfectly clear, we do not make disposable products and there is no planned obsolescence. We make great product and because of our scale, in-house manufacturing and purchasing power we can make it at a lower cost. Since the very first day I started the Company, it is our philosophy to share those benefits with our customers and that’s how we achieve great loyalty and a production volume of around 5 million products per year.

As you said your feelings about us are equally emotional as much as logical. The emotional part I cannot address although again, I respect. On the logical side though I want to make it known that we are extremely proud of what we build and how we continue to improve quality and drive down costs to deliver value for our customers."

E.G 2

"We are surely not perfect and never will, but we are extremely focused on quality management systems such as ISO9000, DFM, Lean Six Sigma or "Kaizen" which is Japanese and translates to "constant improvement". Kaizen is a system that involves all employees, from the executives down to the cleaners and all employees are encouraged to come up with little suggestions how to improve their workplace or anything else they feel can be improved. Companies such as GE and Toyota invented those systems, however you can only implement Kaizen in your manufacturing environment when you actually own the factory, which we do."

So I would say they are trying to change their reputation hopefully through concrete actions - also they now offer a 3 year warranty. They claim a low % failure rate in comparison to the competition - but this may translate into more units due to the volume of their sales!

--------------------
Nick


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 3248
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082594 - 09/01/14 04:56 PM
Quote:

we do not make disposable products




Bollocks, I'm sure Brother Uli thinks that but he would, wouldn't he. If he's so worried about the wellbeing of poor musicians then let him recall all the ada8000s for a free power supply replacement. That quote is delusional guff and most people I know saw it for that when he said it.

Cheap kit is no bargain when it's broke.

--------------------
Dear Mr God,
We called but you were out - B Dylan Deliveries (Intntl)


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N.icholas



Joined: 10/05/04
Posts: 244
Loc: London
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shufflebeat]
      #1082605 - 09/01/14 06:02 PM
Quote shufflebeat:

Quote:

we do not make disposable products




Bollocks, I'm sure Brother Uli thinks that but he would, wouldn't he. If he's so worried about the wellbeing of poor musicians then let him recall all the ada8000s for a free power supply replacement. That quote is delusional guff and most people I know saw it for that when he said it.

Cheap kit is no bargain when it's broke.




I think if you read the thread he admitted that the first ada's had a problem with power supply/ overheating and they redesigned to overcome this - there are a hell of a lot ada's out there which work fine.
- I am not saying Behringer are better than others but I am beginning to think they are not necessarily any worse - and true you only get what you pay for - but there is a lot of overpriced guff out there and you may also actually pay more for what you actually get - paying a premium price does not always mean that the quality is commensurately any better ( it is often simply due to market placement and expected volume sales or as in the case of some cables - pure hype!!!!!!)

With the new products coming out from Behringer - especially after the link up with Midas, Klark and Turbo Sound - you will probably benefit anyway , even if you don't want to buy their stuff - as it will force down the prices of the old school often low volume overpriced guys.

(BTW for the OP I have a ultragraph 3102 - still works fine)

--------------------
Nick

Edited by N.icholas (09/01/14 09:04 PM)


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 4008
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: N.icholas]
      #1082609 - 09/01/14 06:30 PM
Quote N.icholas:


- I am not saying Behringer are better than others but I am beginning to think they are not necessarily any worse ...




You said it later, you get what you pay for. And believe me, I have had a VERY noticably worse track record with Behringer equipment than anyone else.

Example:
I bought 20 Channels of Behringer Compressors. They got used on a single show, 3-4 week run, once a year. By the second show I had at least two dead channels. Within 5 years at most, more likely 3 year, every single one of them had dead channels, or was completely dead. Compare this to even the ACP88s I have had for 5 or more years. There is one sitting in my car that took 10+ years to die IIRC, much of that being loaded in and out of venues. Or lets talk about the Behringer DIs that didn't even last 2 years, with a similar load cycle above, compared to Whirlwind, or half a dozen other cheaper manufacturers that have literally lasted decades. Or the amount of Behringer equipment I get called in by clients to 'fix' and just tell them to throw it away and replace it as it isn't work fixing. Or the Behringer AD/DA (Not the ada, a different unit) that lasted for an event that I do annually that I get sent the equipment for, kept the unit in a rack for the next year on a shelf in climate controlled conditions, and pulled it out to test the next year and it was completely dead.

This isn't to say you can't find good things, I have a behringer system processor in a system being used for kids shows a couple times a week that has last well, but it also isn't being loaded in and out on a regular basis. But these, in my experience, are the rarity, and the saying of if you are buying Behringer, buy two, applies in force as they tend to break at the most inopportune times and you better have a backup.

Until Behringer can prove to me that they have turned their ship on a different course than 'Save every penny by cutting as many corners as possible and damn the quality', then I will never be able to recommend them as a reliable product, which means they should never show up on a stage or situation where it has the capability of stopping the show in my opinion. And by prove, I don't just mean talk a good talk, which is what you posted above, and what was posted in the thread about the Q&A, but actually prove on their track record.

The x32 from all accounts is a decent console. I already know a couple of companies that bought them, and have been told of at least 2 units going back for repair in their first year. Granted I have heard of a MUCH better track record than normal Behringer, but that is still higher than I would expect of any 'brain' of an audio system for anything other than very minor repairs that a simple field tech can do in a couple hours at most, which apparently these didn't qualify in that since they were sent back.

Seablade


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N.icholas



Joined: 10/05/04
Posts: 244
Loc: London
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: seablade]
      #1082625 - 09/01/14 09:36 PM
Quote seablade
The x32 from all accounts is a decent console. I already know a couple of companies that bought them, and have been told of at least 2 units going back for repair in their first year. Granted I have heard of a MUCH better track record than normal Behringer, but that is still higher than I would expect of any 'brain' of an audio system for anything other than very minor repairs that a simple field tech can do in a couple hours at most, which apparently these didn't qualify in that since they were sent back.

Seablade




Possibly sent back at this stage in their life so as not to void the warranty.

For example an early admitted fault with early x32 production was a misrouted cable that caused some low level noise on inputs 16/32 if gain turned all the way up - this was a simple field mod to move the cable- I had this issue but popped it in for repair simply to maintain the warranty.

I doubt the x32 will last years and years but not necessarily because, as with a most things, there will be undoubtedly be some wear and tear but mainly as technology moves on at its current rapid pace it will become outdated. To a certain extent it is the nature of most products today.

.....:


....


Edited by N.icholas (09/01/14 09:43 PM)


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 4008
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: N.icholas]
      #1082627 - 09/01/14 09:48 PM
Quote N.icholas:

Quote seablade:


The x32 from all accounts is a decent console. I already know a couple of companies that bought them, and have been told of at least 2 units going back for repair in their first year. Granted I have heard of a MUCH better track record than normal Behringer, but that is still higher than I would expect of any 'brain' of an audio system for anything other than very minor repairs that a simple field tech can do in a couple hours at most, which apparently these didn't qualify in that since they were sent back.

Seablade




Possibly sent back at this stage in their life so as not to void the warranty.

For example an early admitted fault with early x32 production was a misrouted cable that caused some low level noise on inputs 16/32 if gain turned all the way up, this was a simple field mod to move the cable, I had this issue but popped it in for repair simply to maintain the warranty.





Contrast to having a field tech come out and repair the console though, which is common for me on other consoles when problems like tha"]come up, especially to make sure it doesn't take out an event.

Seablade


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N.icholas



Joined: 10/05/04
Posts: 244
Loc: London
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: seablade]
      #1082634 - 09/01/14 10:48 PM
Quote seablade:


Contrast to having a field tech come out and repair the console though, which is common for me on other consoles when problems like tha"]come up, especially to make sure it doesn't take out an event.

Seablade




What no spare console (or two) at hand?
- so your quality products do fail in full flight then
- does the show stall until the engineer arrives , does the analysis of the fault and execute the repair?

Really - this is a different league altogether for the market Behringer section of Music Group, and who it regards its immediate competitors as , aim for.


--------------------
Nick

Edited by N.icholas (09/01/14 10:54 PM)


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iceman
active member


Joined: 17/10/03
Posts: 1175
Loc: Liverpool
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082638 - 09/01/14 11:39 PM
never had a prob with behringer stuff ive got some of the old vintager series gear, the comp the eq and the ultrafex with the valves on show. its ok i guess for what it does but yeh thats shocking quality control tho hopefully your new piece of gear is way better!!

--------------------
as metal as your nanna`s new hip


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 4008
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: N.icholas]
      #1082648 - 10/01/14 04:52 AM
Quote N.icholas:


What no spare console (or two) at hand?
- so your quality products do fail in full flight then





If you want to discuss my 'quality' gear, then yes everything fails, though I don't believe I have had any consoles except one Allen and Heath console outright fail once, and even that cost less than the x32 so not really what I would consider high class either:)

I have had particular channels go bad, that I was able to work around easily enough, or in some cases do the repair work myself. A lot of the reps for the companies I deal with know me well enough that if I had to fix it then, they wouldn't ask in as far as warranty is concerned;)

And finally the key thing, said gear doesn't fail NEARLY as often on me. And generally doesn't fail outright but gradually degrades in some fashion.

Quote:


- does the show stall until the engineer arrives , does the analysis of the fault and execute the repair?





Considering the engineer might be me, yep. But don't underestimate how quick that may be either. Otherwise I have to work through it as best I can. In either case however, I can usually turn around and send the console off if I am not able to repair it, otherwise if I repair it on site, not an issue at all, warranty or otherwise, as I mentioned above. Many consoles in that price range are in fact designed to be easily serviced in the field for that reason.


Quote:


Really - this is a different league altogether for the market Behringer section of Music Group, and who it regards its immediate competitors as , aim for.





Not at all with what I was referring to above. The x32 goes for $3k or so, I could probably get it a bit under. That was the price range I was keeping in mind with my above comments.

Seablade


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ef37a



Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 6790
Loc: northampton uk
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: shindigger]
      #1082658 - 10/01/14 08:56 AM
Field techs? Borked warranties?

Coming as I do from the "domestic" electronics industry I find this debate rather odd but unfortunately symptomatic of the "pile 'em high and flog 'em cheap" philosophy that overtook the domestic market many years ago.

"Back in the day" When a product failed it was the retailers responsibility to fix or replace it. There was never any thought that such a repair would invalidate warranties? That legal obligation still obtains. If you buy an X32 from Bloggins Audio, THEY have to fix it or replace it within a reasonable time frame. If they do not have the skilled staff to service the goods then the owner is perfectly within their rights to get a third party tech' involved, pay him and then claim the money from the retailer.

The manufacturers will argue of course that they will void warranties if "unskilled" persons tamper with the gear but THEY are not directly responsible for the kit, the retailer is. In any case, persons of the calibre of Seablade, Dan Mills and our very own Hugh can hardly be classed as "unskilled"!! Such tekky peeps would only be thwarted from effecting a repair for lack of service information or spares (bet the X32 does NOT come with a schematic?).

Behringer do not make service information available (presumably they are S scared someone will rip THEIR ideas!) nor do they make spares available AFAIK. Certainly I could get none for my BAC2000. When I was told the product was discontinued I asked to buy some spare boards, a PSU etc. No dice. This attitude would have been understandable HAD they been bringing out a successor to the BCA and wanted me to buy that but they never did. Dog in Manger.

I am not rabidly anti Behringer, as others have said, Curates egg, but their attitude to customers leaves a lot to be desired. But then, the whole electronics industry is hell bent on destruction because we cannot go on churning out new baubles and land filling perfectly good gear for want of a power FET and a trained chap to fit it!

Dave.


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The Korff
Loose Cannon (Reviews Editor)


Joined: 20/10/06
Posts: 2357
Loc: The Wrong Precinct
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: ef37a]
      #1082661 - 10/01/14 09:50 AM
I've managed to buy a new driver for a Behringer PA speaker fairly recently — although that was probably made by another company... Perhaps they had no spares for the BCA because they simply don't make the parts anymore? I imagine that's exactly the kind of product they make entirely in-house...

On a general note, I'm inclined to believe that they have indeed turned over a new leaf (or are sincerely trying to), but these kinds of horror stories will probably keep coming back to bite them for some time as I imagine there's a lot of NOS Behringer gear still sitting around in shops and warehouses, waiting to be bought only to fail at the earliest opportunity!


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ef37a



Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 6790
Loc: northampton uk
Re: Behringer Ultragraph 1502. Shoddy rubbish. new [Re: The Korff]
      #1082674 - 10/01/14 11:20 AM
Quote The Korff:

I've managed to buy a new driver for a Behringer PA speaker fairly recently — although that was probably made by another company... Perhaps they had no spares for the BCA because they simply don't make the parts anymore? I imagine that's exactly the kind of product they make entirely in-house...

On a general note, I'm inclined to believe that they have indeed turned over a new leaf (or are sincerely trying to), but these kinds of horror stories will probably keep coming back to bite them for some time as I imagine there's a lot of NOS Behringer gear still sitting around in shops and warehouses, waiting to be bought only to fail at the earliest opportunity!




No TK, that was not the situation with my BCA*. I bought it on the strength of the SoS review (tho how THEY ever got one to work I shall never know!) I had endless trouble installing and using the interface. A pretty savvy technical director at my works (they were in the computer network business) declared it faulty, as did the retailer who sent me a replacement. This AI co-incided with a new, faster computer and things were much better (easy to see with hindsight but Behringer tech support was both hard to access and chocolate teapot-like). Still not all that stable but if you booted it "up and down" in a certain order it worked ok.

Then a pot failed. No service facilities but Behringer did send me a new machine. 6 months later ch1 mic amp failed. Now well out of warranty (but the AI was still being offered for sale) I had a look. Bugger to get apart but the SM chip had all the wrong volts on it. I did not have one and B s would not supply so I wired in an NE5532 on a wee piece of stripboard. Was actually a bit quieter than the original! (which was not bad at all anyway) 3 months later ch 2 failed. Pee'ed off I bought a 2496 and used a Xenyx 802 I had bought for another purpose. The 802 is still going strong but has been replaced with a ZED 10.

When I asked Behringer for help, spares, manual, they said the AI was discontinued and no spares or information would be made available. I then asked to buy some stock PCBs. No was the reply.

*As a concept the BCA2000 has never AFAIK, been equalled. Yes the 2 "and a half" inputs were a bit weird operationally but the mic amps were quiet, had plenty of gain and had a gain pot, a level pot and. TaDa! a PAN pot! Fabulous metering, many a top AI firm could learn from those. Excellent noise gate and limiter. Very comprehensive monitoring including dim, mute and mono. Two, independent headphone outs, SPDIF,(optical and co ax) ADAT, and MIDI in, out and thru. I guess they over reached themselves but I would gladly give them £500 for a reliable MK2!

Dave.


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