I've read that at one of the recent My Bloody Valentine comeback gigs the level was close to 130dB at the mixing desk - this got me to thinking about ear protection. Can anybody recommend a decent pair of earplugs that can be used both as a gig-goer and when playing live?

Today's Evening Standard stated that they gave away free ear plugs at the gig.

...and if the Evening Standard said it then it must be true...

ken

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I'm All Ears.

Hi,

Are you thinking of nice cheap generic earplugs? Or customised ones that guarantee not to affect the perceived sound by reducing all frequencies equally?

This is something that I have been thinking about, but I would want to go for ones that I could use at the desk, knowing that I am hearing what is coming out, just at a reduced level.

Quote Phantom48:

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Hi,

Are you thinking of nice cheap generic earplugs? Or customised ones that guarantee not to affect the perceived sound by reducing all frequencies equally?

This is something that I have been thinking about, but I would want to go for ones that I could use at the desk, knowing that I am hearing what is coming out, just at a reduced level.

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Generic ones would do the trick for me - mainly just to cut the levels down when playing live

You can (or could) get these on the NHS. They are tailor made (moulded for your middle ear cavity) and cost around 120GBP. Speak to your GP. A colleague works in a music venue and swears by his.

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I'm All Ears.

Quote Ken Long:

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Today's Evening Standard stated that they gave away free ear plugs at the gig.

...and if the Evening Standard said it then it must be true...

ken

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I know a couple of people who went on Saturday and their ears were still ringing (a lot!) late afternoon today...

Quote Jack Bauer:

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Quote Ken Long:

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Today's Evening Standard stated that they gave away free ear plugs at the gig.

...and if the Evening Standard said it then it must be true...

ken

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I know a couple of people who went on Saturday and their ears were still ringing (a lot!) late afternoon today...

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I've just asked them and, yes, they were giving away free earplugs at the gig

Quote Jack Bauer:

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Generic ones would do the trick for me - mainly just to cut the levels down when playing live

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Do yourself and everyone else a favour, and get in-ear monitors instead. This way you will hear everything at a comfortable level. Ideally, you should have some way to control the level and the mix yourself. There are some systems that are built exactly for this, both wired and wireless variants are available.

There's nothing more pathetic than a muso who wears ear plugs (because they are already playing friggin loud), and asks the sound guy to turn up the volume...

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cheers,
t-:

Etymotic has some approx $20USD plugs that would be much better than the generic foam peices of crud. No matches for going custom molded, but still much better than the foam.

Seablade

Shouldn't that be illegal? Blasting that sort of level at people!

Quote Anon101:

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Shouldn't that be illegal? Blasting that sort of level at people!

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Can't speak for the UK, though I would imagine it is similar. In the US, it would be illegal, even under OSHA regs if I recall correctly. I think the UK is even stricter about this in regards to public performance IIRC.

130 dB SPL is generally regarded as over the threshold of pain, and to be honest it is flat out ridiculous if somewhere is actually putting out that much volume at any position where it will be heard. There is no need to go that loud, and at that point you are more than endangering hearing, you are likely damaging it very quickly.

Seablade

What's the necessity in playing at 130dB

At volumes that loud I would be as far back from the stage as I could.

Frankly, I think 115dB is loud enough (too loud in most instances) for any gig.

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Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.

Quote Jack Bauer:

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the level was close to 130dB at the mixing desk

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(my bold)
I certainly wouldn't like to be down at the front!
Was the engineer wearing earplugs? Perhaps he didn't need to if he regularly mixes at that level...

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There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies

Apparently, at one point, the engineer had a pair of headphones on that workmen wear when digging up the road!

I've been offered a ticket to see them but I want to make sure I get some good plugs before I say yes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_po0RTKjsC8

Jesus, I'm old & happy, f that !

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http://soundcloud.com/colossaldj

Well, I went on Saturday and it was a great experience. Loud, but really good. And you really had to have it loud to experience what they were doing - the whole white noise thing for several hours at the end. More art than music I suppose.

The earplugs they dished out were fine, but I took a pair of £15 ones too, which were slightly better. You do need to use earplugs, but I didn't have them in all the time. My ears were ringing a bit the next day, but only until about an hour after I'd woken up. No evident permanent damage so far!

Quote Mixedup:

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Well, I went on Saturday and it was a great experience. Loud, but really good. And you really had to have it loud to experience what they were doing - the whole white noise thing for several hours at the end. More art than music I suppose.

The earplugs they dished out were fine, but I took a pair of £15 ones too, which were slightly better. You do need to use earplugs, but I didn't have them in all the time. My ears were ringing a bit the next day, but only until about an hour after I'd woken up. No evident permanent damage so far!

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Was it mostly stuff off 'Loveless'?

I'm thinking of getting some of these

Any experience of them?

Elacin ER-20's are pretty good and not too expensive, in that they don't distort the frequency spectrum and thus are well suited to musicians.

BTW, if you still hear ringing the next day, you've already experienced hearing damage. Think about it for a minute ....

Any musician who would subject themselves or their audience to such sound pressure levels is the equivalent of a film producer walking around the cinema and sticking toothpicks in people's eyes. It may seem somehow cool, but only in the same way that heroin addiction, hepatitis and AIDS are.

Quote John Reid:

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Elacin ER-20's are pretty good and not too expensive, in that they don't distort the frequency spectrum and thus are well suited to musicians.

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I have the ER20s. They're OK, but for me there's one major problem, at least for use as an audience member. When fitted properly, my own speaking voice sounds ridiculously loud. Much louder than with crap foam plugs. And given that one genenrally has to raise once's voice in such venues, talking to people is absolutely deafening !

I have an idea this is known as "Occlusion effect". Dunno why it's more extreme with ER20s than with foam plugs.

Any idea if it's less of a problem with custom moulds ?

Quote seablade:

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Quote Anon101:

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Shouldn't that be illegal? Blasting that sort of level at people!

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Can't speak for the UK, though I would imagine it is similar. In the US, it would be illegal, even under OSHA regs if I recall correctly. I think the UK is even stricter about this in regards to public performance IIRC.

130 dB SPL is generally regarded as over the threshold of pain, and to be honest it is flat out ridiculous if somewhere is actually putting out that much volume at any position where it will be heard. There is no need to go that loud, and at that point you are more than endangering hearing, you are likely damaging it very quickly.

Seablade

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i think there are legal responsibilities to any staff working in the venue regards LEL levels sustained, but the legislation does not cover the audience. staff are at their place of work and are legally protected; punters are there by their own free will and can leave or stay as they wish...

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planet nine
lincoln, uk.

The UK's Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005 controls the noise exposure to which employees can be subjected, and is quite strict -- but not easy to measure without the right (expensive) equipment.

No one in the entertainment industry has been prosecuted through it yet, as far as I know, but the word is that the powers that be are on the lookout to make an example of someone to emphasise the law.

It is worth noting, though, that the NaW regs relate primarily to noise exposure per working day (or working week) rather than peak SPL levels measured with a simple SPL meter. So the gossip about SPLs of 130dB at the mixing console are pretty meaningless.

As far as the FOH mixer was concerned, the lower action level for impulsive sounds is 135dBC, so if the peak SPL measured at the sound desk was below this there was no problem.... although I suspect his exposure level across an 8 hour day might well have been well above the 80dB LA EQ.d lower action level!

However, the NaW regs have no influence over what noise levels members of the public (ie the audience) are exposed to. This is something of a grey area, although the Event Safety Guide states that no part of the audience area should exceed 107dB LAEQ (ie, sound exposure level during the event), or a peak SPL of 140dBC.

Further, where the event noise exposure level is likely to exceed 96dBA LAEQ, the audience must be advised of the risk to their hearing in advance (ie on the tickets and advertising, as well as notices at all entry points). The provision of ear plugs is not mandated, but is obviously a wise precuation on the part of the organisers -- and is common at motor racing circuits etc!

Re the high quality ear plugs question, Sensorcom ( www.sensorcom.com ) provides a good range of ear plugs and related products designed for musicians and sound professionals, including a kit for personal moulded earplugs. Highly recommended.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (25/06/08 02:46 PM)

I hope the guitarists are still using the wonderful, legendary Boss HM2 pedals.

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No longer a forum member.

Quote:

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As far as the FOH mixer was concerned, the lower action level for impulsive sounds is 135dBC, so if the peak SPL measured at the sound desk was below this there was no problem.... although I suspect his exposure level across an 8 hour day might well have been well above the 80dB LA EQ.d lower action level!

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This is interesting to me. OSHA has similar regulations, but above a certain level (Off the top of my head I think it is 120dB SPL, I don't remember if weighting is specified) the staff is not allowed to be submitted to it at all. Since this would apply to touring staff, earplugs/earmuffs(With a certain level of attunement) would be a requirement at the least for a concert like this, but likely it wouldn't be allowed as that might also, depending on the work, be considered a safety hazard in itself. In the US noone needs to sue for OSHA to become involved, though that is how it usually happens.

Ok quick research...

In the US, you are not allowed to experience exposure at levels above 140dB by OSHA. They also use an A weighted scale for their measurements, and sounds above 115 dB you are only allowed exposure for a maximum of 15 minutes.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&am p;p_id=9735&p_text_version=FALSE

There may actually be more legal statutes at the local or state level that would limit maximum noise level at a public venue, however I don't believe there are any at a national level.

Seablade

Most venues in Scotland are usually below 100dB, or sit at 100dB for the duration of the gig..

[this is the larger side of things obviously, not your barfly and 13th notes!]

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Mac user; Logic and ProTools systems.

100 dB? Peak, average over what time, where?

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PA stuff on FB

Quote Ian Stewart:

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I hope the guitarists are still using the wonderful, legendary Boss HM2 pedals.

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I've got one of them. I wouldn't call it legendary though...




I'd say it was sh1t.

Barry Blesser (First Lexicon Algorithms) has a book about the whole subject of perceived hearing with interesting observations about human hearing and the implications of volume.....http://www.blesser.net/ there is a fair bit on the website.

Quote Guy Johnson:

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100 dB? Peak, average over what time, where?

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Also would that be A or C weighting as it can make a huge difference.

I would normally not mix a rock band much over 108dBA at FOH, as that it pretty loud.

130dB (either A or C) at FOH (say 50 feet in most venues) would mean a level of over 154dB at 1m (3ft), which I would say is pretty near impossible to hit with any PA system, and would mean instant ear drum implosion to anyone nearby!!

Quote Chris Edwards:

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Quote John Reid:

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Elacin ER-20's

I have an idea this is known as "Occlusion effect". Dunno why it's more extreme with ER20s than with foam plugs.

Any idea if it's less of a problem with custom moulds ?

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Yeah, this is occlusion effect. Anything that makes an air tight seal of the ear canal will cause this. It probably doesn't happen as much with cheaper foam plugs as they don't make as good a seal. Anything custom made, if it's a good seal (and you want it to be!!), will cause the occlusion effect.



An annoyance but much less of an annoyance than a noise induced hearing loss

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my music

Quote Mike Lynch:

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Anything custom made, if it's a good seal (and you want it to be!!), will cause the occlusion effect.

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Interesting. I had some idea it's related to which part(s) of the ear canal the plug reaches. And I had kinda hoped custom moulds might have been better. Oh well.

It would be cool if there was a way to allow air in but keep the high SPLs out. I doubt very much that it's possible....

The holy grail of ear plugs!

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my music