Hi,

As many of you are aware, I'm using a Yamaha 01V to run my JBL rig at present. Generally this works pretty well and was a real bargain at £300 including I/O expansion card!

I am considering upgrading it in the future and just noticed that DV have dropped the price of the Phonic Summit 16 from £1500 to £999! This would appear to be the best digital mixer deal around at the moment!?

I'm wondering how this would compare to the Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2 and Yamaha 01v96?

Any ideas as to which of these would have the best audio quality and lowest noise?

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote dickiefunk:

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Hi,

As many of you are aware, I'm using a Yamaha 01V to run my JBL rig at present. Generally this works pretty well and was a real bargain at £300 including I/O expansion card!

I am considering upgrading it in the future and just noticed that DV have dropped the price of the Phonic Summit 16 from £1500 to £999! This would appear to be the best digital mixer deal around at the moment!?

I'm wondering how this would compare to the Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2 and Yamaha 01v96?

Any ideas as to which of these would have the best audio quality and lowest noise?

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The Phonic has been discontinued, after a relatively short life-span, so that would give cause for concern if I were thinking about buying one. I've owned quite a bit of Phonic kit, it's normally good value, well-made, well-specified etc, but they've never ventured into the top-end market really. It's Behringer-priced equipment but with Yamaha quality of build.

I have the Presonus Live, albeit the 16.4.2, and in terms of quality of sound it was far better than the 01v96 that I'd also owned. The EQ/dynamics on the "fat channel" are far more musical, far easier to control on-stage, and with clever features like iPad control for wireless FOH mixing the Presonus was the easy choice for me.

The only issue you might have with the Presonus 16.0.2 is that lack of aux externals, there are only 4, which might not be an issue but if you have in-ears/stage monitors on the go then you might struggle somewhat. I bought the 16.4.2 for that very reason, I have 6 (which is enough), but the 16.4.2 and the 24 have easier access to the "fat channel" too.

I haven't checked today, but IIRC there is a new Phonic either already out or about to be so. That could be why what used to be the S16, but was rebranded as simply the digital mixer may be on the way out.

The in-depth reviews of the Phonic I've read have been very complimentary; that includes detailed screenshots of 'scope screens. BUT as one of the wise one's here (Chris Korff?) pointed out, EVERYTHING on the Phonic has to be accessed through a menu/screen.

After some discussion here and at the specific suggestion of Bob Bickerton I've recently bought the Presonus 16:0:2 and am very happy with it. Excellent preamps and everything I need on-board rather than having to own lots of outboard gear. That said, I tend to work in fairly specific and narrow areas - I can live without groups and with 12 mic inputs and only four prefade auxes. Put it this way... if I could have afforded the 16.4.2 that's what I would have unhesitatingly bought - for the reasons explained here already - and more.

HTH

Thanks for the replies! I do like the look of the Studiolive 16.0.2 but am unsure if I'll miss the motorized faders on the Yamaha and Phonic desks?

How do you set the aux levels on the Presonus?

How does the preamps compare on these desks?

From what I've been reading the Studiolive's effects are excellent and I'm wondering how the Yamaha VCM or the Waves effects on the Y96K card compare to the Presonus or Phonic?

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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It's Behringer-priced equipment but with Yamaha quality of build.

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Hmmm - I can remember the days when people bought Phonic gear when they couldn't afford Behringer. Have Phonic really changed that much? Surely a sensible company would set up a different brand if they were trying to go for a more up market image.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote dickiefunk:

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Thanks for the replies! I do like the look of the Studiolive 16.0.2 but am unsure if I'll miss the motorized faders on the Yamaha and Phonic desks?

How do you set the aux levels on the Presonus?

How does the preamps compare on these desks?

From what I've been reading the Studiolive's effects are excellent and I'm wondering how the Yamaha VCM or the Waves effects on the Y96K card compare to the Presonus or Phonic?

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This Presonus is a detailed and informative overview of the 16.0.2. Your question about auxes is answered at 11 mins, but it's worth watching the whole vid.

NB. The trim/gains on the 16.0.2 are analogue so you can't save and recall their settings.

I've never seen the Phonic 'in the flesh', but this is the very detailed and ongoing review I referred to above: Phonic Digital Review

HTH

Quote dickiefunk:

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From what I've been reading the Studiolive's effects are excellent and I'm wondering how the Yamaha VCM or the Waves effects on the Y96K card compare to the Presonus or Phonic?

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For a live desk, I would place that quite low down on my list of priorities. I'd also treat the pre-amp's like that too, for a live desk you don't need nor want boutique pre's as the price premium is simply wasted when you're more than likely going to be using an SM58 or the like. Having said that, the Presonus is certainly better in those departments than the 01v96.

High on my list of priorities would be how the desk sounds and how easy it is to manipulate/change the sound in real-time, and in both of those respects the Presonus is lightyears ahead of the others. Great EQ and/or effects are almost worthless if you have to navigate multiple menu's on ridiculously small screens, touch-sensitive or otherwise.

Quote Mike Stranks:

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I haven't checked today, but IIRC there is a new Phonic either already out or about to be so. That could be why what used to be the S16, but was rebranded as simply the digital mixer may be on the way out.

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Is this the desk you mean?

http://www.phonic.com/en/is16.html

Seems to have some extras such as 32 and 15 band eqs?

Thanks for the other links will have a good study of those!

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Quote dickiefunk:

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From what I've been reading the Studiolive's effects are excellent and I'm wondering how the Yamaha VCM or the Waves effects on the Y96K card compare to the Presonus or Phonic?

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For a live desk, I would place that quite low down on my list of priorities. I'd also treat the pre-amp's like that too, for a live desk you don't need nor want boutique pre's as the price premium is simply wasted when you're more than likely going to be using an SM58 or the like. Having said that, the Presonus is certainly better in those departments than the 01v96.

High on my list of priorities would be how the desk sounds and how easy it is to manipulate/change the sound in real-time, and in both of those respects the Presonus is lightyears ahead of the others. Great EQ and/or effects are almost worthless if you have to navigate multiple menu's on ridiculously small screens, touch-sensitive or otherwise.

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Personally I prefer the O1V96i layout to that of the Presonus. While I agree you can access things quicker on the Presonus, the O1V96i lets me reference the current state easier, I hate reading the bargraphs on the Presonus. Both of these are vastly improved by using their respective computer software as well.

I haven't made up my mind on the sound of the O1V96i vs the Presonus yet, while I have experience on both, I haven't been able to do a side by side on them, and supposedly the preamps are one thing that was improved in the new revision of the O1V, supposedly placing these preamps closer akin to the ones in the DM series which were good, and running at 96k provides a cleaner sound overall to the console and its processing/effects. Haven't had the console long enough to speak one way or the other on that particular aspect though.

I also find it MUCH easier and quicker to mix auxes and effects on the O1V96i than the Presonus, flying faders make a HUGE difference here. This applies doubly so if you need scene management at all, huge difference flying faders makes here if you need to set a basic mix between sets and recall it later.

And I particularly have enjoyed the ability to remap inputs to faders on the O1V96i, allowing me to throw mics, effects returns, and computer audio, next to each other on a single layer makes a huge difference when running as well compared to previous versions.

Seablade

I've been having a good read of the Phonic Summit review and it appears to be a very decent mixer!
Also, I read that they are adding the 31band GEQ in a firmware update. I also like the fact that it has 8 auxes, 16 XLR mic pres and independent gate, expander, compressor and limiter on every channel!!! On most desks you can only use 2 dynamics processors per channel! If the Phonic Summit sounds on par with the Presonus Studiolive then it could be a real bargain.

My only questions about this desk are if it would be possible to control this via a remote app on an ipad and if there will be an app available for this?

Would be great to hear from anyone that has used both the Phonic Summit and Presonus Studiolive!?

I've read user reports who have used both the Yamaha 01V96 and Presonus Studiolive and all pretty much say the Studiolive sounds better!

If the Phonic Summit sounds as good or at least better than the Yamaha 01V96 then it seems like a fantastic deal. My only query is the remote ipad app control.

The Presonus Studiolive ticks most of the right boxes but I would miss the motorized faders and quite fancy the idea of having more than 4 auxes and 12 mic pres.

Hmmm!!???

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote dickiefunk:

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My only questions about this desk are if it would be possible to control this via a remote app on an ipad and if there will be an app available for this?

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Think I've just found the answer to this! It would appear that the Phonic has no midi capability or DAW control which I'm guessing would mean it's not possible to control this desk via remote!??

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www.richardpenrose.com

Just to chip in a little late in the piece. I purchased a couple of Studiolives and I'm very happy with the sound quality, absolutely no problems there.

The big question you face is usability and I regard the Presonus more as a hybrid analogue/digital desk in terms of its functionality. It's fantastic in that it saves you lugging around a whole bunch of gear, and you can save settings, but I wouldn't use it for changing scenes in music theatre applications for instance.

I would say that if you're using it for say your own band, or if you're happy enough using an analogue desk for mixing concerts, then the StudioLive would be fine. But if you want to do music theatre, or have more flexibility, then a fully digital desk with motorized faders would be preferable.

Phonic doesnt have a great reputation here, but I haven't used the digital desk. Likewise I haven't used the Yamaha for a awhile.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

The 16.0.2 has no subgroups, 12 XLR inputs, and 4 aux outs
The 16.4.2 has 4 subgroups, 16 XLR inputs and 6 aux outs
The 24.4.2 has 4 subgroups, 24 XLR inputs and 10 aux outs.

I really like my SudioLive boards. I own a 24.4.2 for bigger gigs, and a 16.0.2 for smaller gigs. I like that I can use one computer/router setup for either board, not at the same time....

I recommend the Presonus boards too. I just bought a 24.4.2 for live gigs, and I'm anticipating purchasing a 16.0.2 for smaller gigs (Karaoke/DJ gigs). I'm excited!

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Ice Cold Entertainment DJ/Live Sound Services Ashland, KY, USA
Coming Soon: Presonus 32.4.2AI, QSC KW153/KW181 FOH, EV ELX Foldback

The Phonic Summit is one of the worst desks I've tried out. Screamingly bad design, and not in terms of 'build quality' or 'realiability', as you might accuse Behringer of, but in terms of basic functionality and user interface/ergonomics. So many things wrong with it. If I had a bargepole handy, I wouldn't be tempted to prod the desk with it. It should carry a health warning.

Thanks for all the replies and info guys. I think I'll end up getting the Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2 and am now on the lookout for a secondhand bargain!

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www.richardpenrose.com

Just bear in mind that Presonus told me in an email about my randomly combusting Firepod, that they consider a 3yr old piece of kit 'ancient' and would be surprised if it still works after that long. Great product there... Good luck.

Cheers,

Ben (Happy Yamaha 01v96/02r96 owner who's desks are both still working despite ancientness)

Just to throw some thoughts in, I used my SL24 on a gig this past weekend, and it was really easy & sounded great. I have been talking to another guy who has his own system, and he was mentioning about the Behringer X32 32-channel board, which sounds promising after Behringer bought Midas (IIRC, that's what he said) for a lower price point than the Presonus, so the game may change soon.

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Ice Cold Entertainment DJ/Live Sound Services Ashland, KY, USA
Coming Soon: Presonus 32.4.2AI, QSC KW153/KW181 FOH, EV ELX Foldback

Wow, Behringer bought Midas? Isn't that like Kia buying Porsche?

Quote twotoedsloth:

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Wow, Behringer bought Midas? Isn't that like Kia buying Porsche?

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Behringer = mass-market and cash-rich

Midas = niche market and vulnerable.

Just think - Rolls-Royce is owned by BMW. Bentley is owned by Volkswagen. Jaguar is (or was) owned by Ford.

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Gear List: reverse only.

Quote Mike Sullivan:

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Just to throw some thoughts in, I used my SL24 on a gig this past weekend, and it was really easy & sounded great. I have been talking to another guy who has his own system, and he was mentioning about the Behringer X32 32-channel board, which sounds promising after Behringer bought Midas (IIRC, that's what he said) for a lower price point than the Presonus, so the game may change soon.

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It has been due since early 2011, and there is still no release date, so I don't think it'll change anything.......

Quote twotoedsloth:

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Wow, Behringer bought Midas? Isn't that like Kia buying Porsche?

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Kia could afford to buy Porsche, Porsche can't afford to pay for themselves at the moment.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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It has been due since early 2011, and there is still no release date, so I don't think it'll change anything.......

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All major UK retailers now have it priced - going rate seems to be £1799 inc VAT - and one or two have prospective dates - looks like it's scheduled for mid/late July. We all know that could well change, but at least dates are now being quoted.

... and there's a hands-on review of the actual product from NAMM HERE

The Studiolives are starting to gain a bit of a track record now. Instead of orphaning them, they keep adding more and more features. I use mine 2-3 times a month and love it. I love remote mixing, and being able to multitrack the whole gig. Easy to work with, lots of features, and sounds great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kqQ9ypYXXM&feature

I really REALLY do not want to buy a SL24 as a replacement to my aging DDA.

You lot are not making things easy for me lol!

As for the X32 from the youtube videos I've seen (and there seems to be ALOT now) it is due to finally be released on/in stores on the 27/07 (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2KEXd8vTe8 )
Also of other intrest and also gives a little more detail onm the insides is this Q/A session with Uli Behringer http://soundforums.net/varsity/4299-uli-behringer-music-group-q.html some quite interesting stuff in there.

I've just bought a b-stock (out of the box once at trade show for display) Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2 £700 with a full 12month warranty. Should be here tomorrow so looking forward to trying this out

I would have quite liked a 16.4.2 but these are fetching £1400 secondhand and to be honest the 16.0.2 already does more than I need.



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www.richardpenrose.com

Good. Let us know what you think. Oh and remember to not run it too hot! I generally look to the meters running half way.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

I'm playing with the X32 at the moment... And so far I'm very impressed!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Will post back my thoughts at the weekend, got three gigs starting on Wednesday.

Hugh, have you tried the Presonus Studiolive desks??

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I'm playing with the X32 at the moment... And so far I'm very impressed!

Hugh

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Cool...looking forward to an official review then!

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

Cool - be interested to see that review. The DDX3216 was a great bit of kit, just suffered dreadfully from nasty preamps. Have they got that side of things sorted?

Just used the Studiolive 16.0.2 on it's first gig tonight and I have be extremely impressed with it!
This desk sounds SO much better than my Yamaha 01V. Less hiss, clearer tone, higher output, much better eq, dynamics and reverbs with a much easier to use layout!
Very pleased with my purchase so far!

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www.richardpenrose.com

Just done a soundcheck for a gig tonight. The Studiolive has gone higher in my estimation!

We're using just my JBL EON 15's and the Studiolive and the sound is absolutely stellar!

There are 5 artistes performing at the gig with several vocalists covering a large range of styles, several acoustic guitarists, cajon, upright bass, kick and keys.

My Eon's have never sounded better. It's as though a veil has been lifted from my speakers. The clarity, depth, punch and musicality of the sound has really surprised me.
I have done well into the thousands of gigs over the years with some massive pa companies and incredible rigs and engineers but tonight I've felt the sound was one of the nicest I've heard for the styles tonight. Maybe it's the room!? All I can say is wow.

Over the past year or so I've wanted to sell my EON's but have found that the mixer was the weak link in my setup and not the speakers! I've heard the RCF 712a's and the JBL EON 515XT's but found myself preferring my EON 15G2's for musicality. The RCF's had a little more clarity but sounded thin and the EON 515XT's were even more so and couldn't handle the low frequencies nowhere near as well as the 15G2's. They kept chuffing badly whereas the 15G2's weren't even straining!?

Am I mad for thinking this?

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote dickiefunk:

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Am I mad for thinking this?

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No - Welcome to the StudioLive/Eon G2 club!

People really trash Eons, but I think the G2s are very workable. Not the nicest top end, but with a half decent graphic you can ameliorate that (for acoustic work I often pull out 2k to 4k stuff).

In terms of nice top end (on a budget) QSC are the way to go. But I've heard good things also about EV speakers (from Seablade) but they're not available here.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Whilst there are clearly better products out there, I'm not aware of anything in this price range that comes close. I paid £500 for my EON 15G2's brand new (clearance stock) and £700 new for the Studiolive. That's quite some pa for £1200 new!!

The QSC K12's did catch my attention when they came out but I'm not sure they would cope with bass frequencies like the EON 15G2's or to be as full range?

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www.richardpenrose.com

Yep, the G2s are better than K12s for full range stuff........

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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Yep, the G2s are better than K12s for full range stuff........

Bob

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Not sure if there is any active 2 way speakers out there that are lighter than the EON 15G2's but have the even better bottom end and full range sound but are a step up!?

There were two PA's at last nights gig

Mine - JBL EON 15G2's + Studiolive 16.0.2

Other - Mackie SRM450 + Mackie CFX 12

The two pa's were setup side by side. The difference between the quality of sound was big. The Mackie rig lacked depth, clarity and the smooth tone of the JBL rig!

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I'm playing with the X32 at the moment... And so far I'm very impressed!

Hugh

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as is this review tools4music

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Nick