Just curious, for recording real acoustic drums (as opposed to programming, using BFD etc) what do you look for in a snare drum for recording? I know tastes vary, and I know plenty of producers recommend speicifc models tey've used over the years (Black Beauty comes up a lot...), but what do *you* look for: long sustain, nice, resonance, what sort of volume? What sort of heads etc etc.

Personally, I'll often use quite a shallow snare, possibly a piccolo one, with a balance more towards the snare/underside than the batter head. But only cause it's a sound I like. So, what do *you* look for in a snare drum for recording?

Black Beauty very often. I find the underneath mic almost always has a slightly weird attack to it and causes problems with the kick phase so I tend to gravitate towards a top mic with extra highs if I want that rattle.

J

--------------------
www.jackruston.com

My 'problem' is that I like all kinds of snare sounds! Black Beauty, certainly, but a sympathetically tuned piccolo snare is a gorgeous thing. Someone brought in a Ludwig with a very high rim recently (no idea of the model) and it sounded stunning.

Rock/metal is where I spend a lot of time, so in that context...

For me it is absolutely critical that the attack of the snare constantly gets through the mix, especially in busy sections of a song - if you can hear the attack then your brain 'fills in' the missing details (as long as we've heard enough of the snare in other sections to know what it 'should' sound like).

So for me a I want a very hard 'crack' from the snare and I want the snares to be lively. The sustain is important, of course, but it's not the main thing for me - crack and sizzle come first, then I'll look for some sustain that gives the snare its body and character.

Depending on style I often under-mic, but I probably only use it 50% of the time - when it works it works well.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Thanks. I've not used a Black Beauty myself, though have recorded plenty of nice other snares. So what is it that's so special about the Black Beauty?

When I said top/bottom, I don't necessarily mean a separate top/bottom mic. It might be a 414 ULS or something at the side about a foot or so away, where the position/placement gives me more or less of the 'tchh' or body.

I'm with you Elf. The attack is so crucial for me, but it needs plenty of body too, even if it doesn't sustain for forever...

The BB seems to have just the right balance of metallic ring and warmth. It's brass and it's spun rather than cast which I think has something to do with the way it sounds. I've used a LOT of metal snares brought in by bands and a good BB just tends to win every time. I also have a 70's 400 which is nice but not quite as 'organic' as the BB. The Ludwig stuff is expensive, but it does sound 'right'. Some snares sound frankly awful and it always surprises me because in terms of metal shells, it seems like it'd be a hard thing to get too wrong. Apparently not.

J

--------------------
www.jackruston.com

Got me a 70s Ludwig 402 after Jack recommended I get in touch with (insert name here) at vintage drums. Never looked back.

Attack has to be the most important thing. For me, a lot of the snare sound comes from the room so if I have that initial 'crack' from the close mic I'm happy.

What do I look for in the person playing the snare? Power and consistent power at that.

Of course, that's for my usual pop/rock tastes.

--------------------
http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

I like my snare

I've got a wood pearl masterworks 5". Same ply and wood as the rest of the kit so it blends really well with the whole sound of the kit.

Mostly it depends on who's playing it of course. I've heard a lot of good snares played badly!

Mic'ing, I tend to go for a large diaphragm close to the side if I've got a good player who can keep the hi-hat under control. If I've got someone who whacks the hats with wild abandon then I tend to stick with a SM57 or similar in the usual place!

--------------------
www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

Yeah the attack vs sustain thing is really critical. For me there has to be sustain. You can have all the attack in the world and the snare will sound thin and distant if it has no body. Normally for me there needs to be ring, but if the ring is tuned properly then it vanishes into the harmonics of the track and ends up becoming 'length'. It's fairly easy to manipulate both attack and sustain in a snare after the fact, but attack is the easier of the two in that bringing up quiet sustain will also bring up stuff that you might not want...like hi hat. It's really about the player.The way the snare is hit is critical because if it's too hard, the drum just chokes out, too soft and it's...too soft. Some guys seem to be able to make the drum sing, and get a lovely balance of stick attack just in the way they hit. Other guys just can't get a nice sound whatever happens. It's exactly the same with kick drums...There are a lot of drummers out there who can't make a kick sound quite right. It's something to do with the way they release the beater after each attack. Another guy can sit at the same kit and make the kick powerful and deep etc just in the way they use their foot. Drums are HARD to play.

J

--------------------
www.jackruston.com

As an erstwhile drummer, it has to be the Ludwig 400, with Remo Ambassador heads..

And DONT spoilt it with towels and Gaffa Tape - YUK

What do i look for in a snare? I want the damn thing to be tuned properly. I've had drummers with (what I would say is) rubbish who know how to tune their drums, and the polar opposite. I think the attack/body/sustain etc discussion is very style dependant, however the heavier you go the more important the attack becomes. In terms of miking, I invariably top and bottom mic and then lose the bottom mic when mixing - a well tuned snare with a top mic placed appropriately gives me most of what i want when combined with OHs and Rooms.

--------------------
www.sda-audio.co.uk

What do I look for in a snare?

1) One that comes with a competent drummer attached.
I found that a competent player that knows how to tune his kit or can at least listen to how you tell them to tune it is the best solution to a good drum sound.

2) One that triggers samples well
...kinda kidding...but not really...with the right triggers you can layer samples

Actually from all the drums that I've recorded I like the Ayotte the best, something mid-sized, unless you go vintage, where I like the old Sonor and Pearl snares from mid 70s and 80s. Recorded a guy with a custom DW set which was top of the line and sounded amazing. He couldn't play for cr*p. The snare sounded great on the recording though

Piccolos also work well in some situations. Evans heads are the ones that I usually work with but with the right tuning I guess anything will do.




--------------------
www.descentintomadness.com

One of the most important things is that the drummist plays backbeats as rimshots.

(That is, real rimshots, not the side-stick/cross-stick as used in ballads/reggae, which is completely different)

In most genres of music, the rimshot is necessary to get that sound people expect to hear, especially for the backbeat.

Many people hear a good snare sound, and assume it's a regular hit, when in most cases it's really a rimshot.

Needs to be played consistently, which takes some practice, but is very much worthwhile!

Quote chris...:

---

One of the most important things is that the drummist plays backbeats as rimshots.

(That is, real rimshots, not the side-stick/cross-stick as used in ballads/reggae, which is completely different)

In most genres of music, the rimshot is necessary to get that sound people expect to hear, especially for the backbeat.

Many people hear a good snare sound, and assume it's a regular hit, when in most cases it's really a rimshot.

Needs to be played consistently, which takes some practice, but is very much worthwhile!

---

So true. In pop/rock/funk contexts every backbeat has to be a true rimshot (John Bonham was the master of this). That's really where the crack comes from, regardless of the drum. I have a couple of recordings I made using my old cheapy Yamaha beginner snare and even though it was wood and only 13" diameter I managed to get a great crack out of it on certain occasions. (e.g. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/18609107/carefree%20drums.wav) It has to be tuned right though and cheap drums usually don't have enough lugs to hold their tuning.

I recently sat in on classroom performance by Damon Wilson (Feeder / James Brown / Joss Stone / The Waterboys / Busted / Sugababes / Ray Davies / Busted / Taylor Swift etc…)

Was in a college classroom, no room treatment as such.

The sound was fantastic, Ludwig kit (not sure what the snare was but had a fair portion of gaffer tape damping on it). I came away thinking you could have just put a mic in front of the kit and got a good recorded sound.

So I concluded, great player, well tuned kit, some damping to get rid of unwanted rings -- all contributing to the great sound.

--------------------
Madman_Greg

Quote chris...:

---

Many people hear a good snare sound, and assume it's a regular hit, when in most cases it's really a rimshot.

Needs to be played consistently, which takes some practice, but is very much worthwhile!

---

+1 I LOVE the sound of a snare played that way. The crack and attack are what I think a snare 'should' sound like.

The snare seems to have numerous broad spectra of desired sounds for different genres, areas and whatever else. More so then any other instrument. There's a rock snare, a rockabilly snare, a jazz snare, a classical snare, a marching snare, a trance snare, a techno snare, a D'n'B snare, a Breaks snare and 80's snare a tight snare, a 'bright' snare etc etc.

I tend to go for how the snare feels and wither the mood suits the piece.
For techno/dance music I like a snare which has a sort of marble/snooker ball strike, crossed with "a KitKat breaking" but for Rock'n'roll I like a sort of snap like a whip hitting crumpled up paper?

I dunno, should I give audio examples? lol.

--------------------
I'm hope I'm alive to see the 70's

Or you could buy us all a KitKat

Rim shot all the way for anything powerful, yeah. But whatever you do, don't think you can just tell a player to do that. If it's not something they're used to as a player and natural at, you'll have inconsistencies all over the place. It takes time to master getting that rim, stick and skin hit consistent as a player. When you do hit that sweet spot, you can expect a pretty dramatic rise in level compared to just missing it by millimeters.

Always reminds me of the feeling and 'crack' you get when you strike a tennis ball right on the racquet's sweet spot.

--------------------
http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Quote Aurongroove:

---

has a sort of marble/snooker ball strike, crossed with "a KitKat breaking" but for Rock'n'roll I like a sort of snap like a whip hitting crumpled up paper?

---

Haha, I didn't even see this post before I started going on about tennis rackets!

--------------------
http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

lol.
sport: the source of 66% of all snare sound analogies.

--------------------
I'm hope I'm alive to see the 70's

It took me around 15 years of playing before I could do rimshots with any degree of reliability. And there are plenty of people that confuse rimshots with sidesticks.

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

'Rimshotting' the snare is a whole subject by itself, for example I was jamming ( and recording ) with my guitarist and bassist last year, a couple of minutes into a slow dirty groove kinda thing, I began to notice this fantastic ringing overtone being generated by the sanre - a Ludwig LM2000 ( ultra rare BB shelled ltd edition - 100 worldwide - Ludwig created to celebrate the millenium ). I then spent a few minutes learning the drum, lovely. The options seemed pretty unlimited, every degree change of stick angle, every millemetre of positional change of the impact spot combined with subtle changes of rim position and strke strenght, drew a different 'colour' of sound, quite a epiphany for me with that drum, it is the most sensitive instrument I have ever had the pleasure to hit with a bit of wood.

The best exponent of the rimshot is probably Roger Taylor ( Queen ) he is the master of low impact, big sound rim work, he also rimshots the Toms bringing out some awesome harmonics during his fills, listen to early Queen for many examples. This is uber tricky to master.

--------------------
www.thespell.co.uk

Quote Rockdrummerzero:

---

The best exponent of the rimshot is probably Roger Taylor ( Queen ) he is the master of low impact, big sound rim work, he also rimshots the Toms bringing out some awesome harmonics during his fills, listen to early Queen for many examples. This is uber tricky to master.

---

I have to say I'm not a big fan of Roger Taylor's drumming (though I love early Queen). I would say his trademark is more the fact he opens the hit hat slightly on every backbeat -- this way the snare is enhanced by a splashy short crash on the hi hat, which becomes 'part' of the backbeat. Bonham is really the master of rimshots. Watch any live video from about 1973 onwards and his style has become very restrained and yet still sounds massive!

Well to be contrary, a well played , well tuned snare does not always sound better with rim shots. Sure you get extra oomph, but it is a little like playing a stradivarius with a saw..not subtle. ...and as far as what snare?...get a nice metal snare and a good wood shell snare..use good , well tuned skins and learn how to hit the instrument well. Dave

--------------------
My head hurts!

Quote mjfe2:

---

Quote Rockdrummerzero:

---

The best exponent of the rimshot is probably Roger Taylor ( Queen ) he is the master of low impact, big sound rim work, he also rimshots the Toms bringing out some awesome harmonics during his fills, listen to early Queen for many examples. This is uber tricky to master.

---

I have to say I'm not a big fan of Roger Taylor's drumming (though I love early Queen). I would say his trademark is more the fact he opens the hit hat slightly on every backbeat -- this way the snare is enhanced by a splashy short crash on the hi hat, which becomes 'part' of the backbeat. Bonham is really the master of rimshots. Watch any live video from about 1973 onwards and his style has become very restrained and yet still sounds massive!

---

I too am a massive fan of Led Zep', Bonham was the 'God of Feel' in my opinion, however I have been constantly dissapointed by the all emcompassing post production 'massaging' that all Led Zep DVD's and Videos employ to try to emulate the 'Classic Bonham' studio sound of the drums, his feel is always there, but sadly little remains of the actual 'naked' concert drum sound. This of course is the same with many 'Live Rock' DVD's, but interestingly Queen's previously unreleased 'Live at Wembley - Friday Concert' seems to have escaped without too much fixing, if anyone is interested it is a valuable resource to compare both Friday & Saturday gigs, one massively enhanced the other quite natural'ish.

--------------------
www.thespell.co.uk