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WiredUp



Joined: 12/12/04
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Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors
      #1037755 - 12/03/13 01:58 PM
I'm wanting to upgrade my monitors from passive HHB circle 5's and I've narrowed it down to:

Neumann KH120
Focal CMS65

I was pretty set on the Focal's but read Hugh's review of the Neumann's.

Anyone have any experience/thoughts? The small size of the Neumann's is leaning me toward the focal.

Also, do any UK dealers allow you to try the monitors in your own studio? Not sure how that would work out but people on other forums suggest doing this.


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uphillbothways



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1037763 - 12/03/13 02:41 PM
They're both fantastic monitors. The differences between them are slight and largely subjective, so our opinion isn't going to help you a lot - you really need to demo them.

Some distributors and dealers offer a loan service on request and it's worth enquiring, but you can demo any kit you like at home thanks to the Distance Selling Regulations. If you buy goods by mail order, you have seven days to cancel the contract from the moment you receive the goods. The seller is legally obliged to give a full refund, with the exception of media products (audiovisual materials, software etc) and items which would be unhygienic to re-use. Obviously dealers aren't exactly euphoric about it, but it's your legal right.


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whis4ey



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1037791 - 12/03/13 04:04 PM
The Neumann KH 120's I believe compare with the Focal CMS 50's in size ( well ... 5 1/4" woofer compared to 5" ?)
I bought the latter a few months ago and I must say they are amongst the best buys I have made in a long time
I have no doubt that the Neumann's are an excellent monitor, but I believe that if you go for the CMS 65's you will never regret it (6 1/2" woofer too). Focal produce a quality item, and their advertising 'blurb' is right on ...... 'Listen to your music, not your speakers'

--------------------
Sam


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WiredUp



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: whis4ey]
      #1037918 - 13/03/13 12:33 PM
Quote whis4ey:

The Neumann KH 120's I believe compare with the Focal CMS 50's in size ( well ... 5 1/4" woofer compared to 5" ?)
I bought the latter a few months ago and I must say they are amongst the best buys I have made in a long time
I have no doubt that the Neumann's are an excellent monitor, but I believe that if you go for the CMS 65's you will never regret it (6 1/2" woofer too). Focal produce a quality item, and their advertising 'blurb' is right on ...... 'Listen to your music, not your speakers'




Does the larger woofer really make much difference? I assume louder/bit more bass?
Sam, how are your mixes translating with the CMS50's?

Where I am there is no store to listen to these and I'd like to purchase in the next week or two. I've read everything there is to read on these two monitors, lots of positive comments about mixes translating. That's my reason. I've spent the last 3 months working on an album and it sounds great in the studio (heavily treated room: 4 bass traps in corners, bass trap above mixing position, splayed walls/ceiling, auralex spot treatment, etc) and you get used to hearing your work that way. But the HHB circles never translate for me, I always end up disappointed.

Neumann's seem a little cheaper than the CMS65.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1037920 - 13/03/13 12:38 PM
Quote WiredUp:

...the HHB circles never translate for me...




I'm surprised at that. The Circles were made by Harbeth and are actually a very good speaker for the money.

H

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whis4ey



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1037923 - 13/03/13 12:50 PM
The Neumans are a little cheaper probably because they are smaller, but I have to say that I think the Focals are better value for money ... with the Neuman you are paying something for the name
I don't think additional loudness would be an issue by buying the smaller units ... my CMS 50's are plenty loud enough and I am not driving them at anywhere near their max. I also have JBL GS-115's with 6 1/2" woofers which served me well for many many years. I wouldn't tend to play them any louder than the CMS 50's. At the end of the day you become accustomed to the response from your monitors and make the necessary adjustments within your head. With the CMS 50's however I am finding the bass response to be absolutely spot on when compared with a commercial recording, and my mixes are translating to my hi-fi system and car stereo (for example) just as required. (I tend to find that the bass response is something you tend to lose out on in a mix with the result that you can add far too much???)
Bear in mind though, that I am no expert and these are just personal observations
Also be aware that I was not able to pre test these units as I too have no local means of doing so

--------------------
Sam


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WiredUp



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1037932 - 13/03/13 01:39 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote WiredUp:

...the HHB circles never translate for me...




I'm surprised at that. The Circles were made by Harbeth and are actually a very good speaker for the money.

H




Well they sound great in the studio! I am on the passive ones so I wonder if my cheapy samson rackmount amp might be letting them down?

Hugh, you loved the Neumann's in your review. Any thoughts on the Focal's? Paul W liked them!


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1037936 - 13/03/13 01:45 PM
Personally, I'd go for the Neumanns... but they are both perfectly acceptable small monitors.

Hugh

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WiredUp



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: whis4ey]
      #1037938 - 13/03/13 01:46 PM
Quote whis4ey:

The Neumans are a little cheaper probably because they are smaller, but I have to say that I think the Focals are better value for money ... with the Neuman you are paying something for the name
I don't think additional loudness would be an issue by buying the smaller units ... my CMS 50's are plenty loud enough and I am not driving them at anywhere near their max. I also have JBL GS-115's with 6 1/2" woofers which served me well for many many years. I wouldn't tend to play them any louder than the CMS 50's. At the end of the day you become accustomed to the response from your monitors and make the necessary adjustments within your head. With the CMS 50's however I am finding the bass response to be absolutely spot on when compared with a commercial recording, and my mixes are translating to my hi-fi system and car stereo (for example) just as required. (I tend to find that the bass response is something you tend to lose out on in a mix with the result that you can add far too much???)
Bear in mind though, that I am no expert and these are just personal observations
Also be aware that I was not able to pre test these units as I too have no local means of doing so




Thanks for the reply Sam. Bass in the studio sounds tight and clear, elsewhere its muddy/boomy. After reading reviews on the monitors in questions lots of people refer to the mids being more accurate. Yesterday I pushed the EQ higher on the lower mids, it certainly gave a little more clarity and less dullness when I reviewed the mix elsewhere. I'm guessing my HHB's are pushing my mids leading me to think they sound ok when their not.


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John Willett
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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1037977 - 13/03/13 03:54 PM
I'm with Hugh on this.

I also agree that the Circle 5 are exceptional monitors for their price and would suggest the amp. is the problem. You will, no doubt, get a queue wanting to buy the Circle 5 off you.

So, I would go for the KH120A at the c. £1,000 price bracket.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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John Willett
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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: whis4ey]
      #1037978 - 13/03/13 04:01 PM
Quote whis4ey:

... with the Neumann you are paying something for the name




What does this mean?

That because Neumann put their name on a product, you are automatically charged more?

What rubbish!

What you pay for is a well crafted monitor with excellent quality control, so that every unit will sound the same as any other unit.

There is nothing I know of in Pro Audio equipment that a manufacturer ups the price just because of the "name".

In fact - the price is *lower* because of the name. The buying power and automation that Neumann/Sennheiser can afford means that high quality can me made at a more reasonable price and, in fact, *lowers* the price. The KH120A is about one-third *cheaper* than the K+H O110 it replaces.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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WiredUp



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: John Willett]
      #1037982 - 13/03/13 04:33 PM
Quote John Willett:

I'm with Hugh on this.

I also agree that the Circle 5 are exceptional monitors for their price and would suggest the amp. is the problem. You will, no doubt, get a queue wanting to buy the Circle 5 off you.

So, I would go for the KH120A at the c. £1,000 price bracket.




Why those over the Focal's?

Its the small size of the Neumann's that puts me off.

Circle 5 is 420 x 255 x 300
CMS65 is 368 x 241 x 231
KH120 is 277 x 182 x 220 tiny!


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1037987 - 13/03/13 05:01 PM
Quote WiredUp:

Why those over the Focal's?




I prefer the tonal balance, and I have greater faith in and admiration of the K+H engineering. A manufacturer that publishes such comprehensive technical specifications and measurements as K+H deserves respect and support in my book!

Quote:

Its the small size of the Neumann's that puts me off.




Well yes, it is smaller than the CMS65 -- and is more equivalent to the CMS 50 which has virtually identical bass extension. In musical terms, the KH120 is flat down to A1 while the CMS65 is flat down to F#1... so only three or four semitones between them if you think that will make a real difference... but the room acoustics and proximity to walls, as well as speaker EQ, will affect that too.

A larger bass driver will usually allow greater SPLs and provide slightly deeped bass extension. But it will also make the crossover between drivers more difficult because of the disparity in dispersion angles between the two drivers.

So it's all swings and roundabouts, really. As I said, they are both perfectly adequate monitor speakers for the money... but my personal preference would be for the KH120 which impressed me enormously with its neutrality and accuracy.

If you want something with a bigger bass driver, the KH O300 is a truly superb monitor, and as it's about to be replaced with the O310 I imagine you'll find end of line bargains if you look for them!

H

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whis4ey



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1037988 - 13/03/13 05:08 PM
Quote:

What does this mean?

That because Neumann put their name on a product, you are automatically charged more?

What rubbish!




What a charming reply.
So sorry for having such a despicable opinion

--------------------
Sam


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: whis4ey]
      #1037992 - 13/03/13 05:33 PM
Quote whis4ey:

So sorry for having such a despicable opinion




It's quite alright! But he does have a valid point, actually.

K+H already had a very good name before the company was bought by Neumann, and the investment introduced by its new owners has helped it to continue making superb speakers more cost effectively than was previously the case. There is certainly no evidence I'm aware of that suggests Neumann has raised the prices to reflect the marque's name.

JW has already pointed out the KH120 is both better and cheaper than its predecessor. As further evidence, when I reviewed the KH O300D back in October 2004 (when VAT was 17.5%) it cost £3090 (£2630 ex VAT). It's now on sale for £3270 (£2725 ex VAT), which is only about 4% more in eight years! Inflation over the same period should make it £4080 (£3400 ex VAT) in the UK, everything else being equal!

So while a lot of Neumann stuff is very expensive (the merits being the subject of a separate debate...), it would be wrong to assume that the re-branded K+H monitors are over-priced. They most definitely are not, and I would actually argue that they represent very good value for money!

H

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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fay spook



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1037998 - 13/03/13 05:55 PM
Quote WiredUp:



Well they sound great in the studio! I am on the passive ones so I wonder if my cheapy samson rackmount amp might be letting them down?





Try another amp if you are concerned. I dont particularly like the Samson. Borrow a Bryston and see if "all amplifiers sound the same". If you like what a different amp does then a second hand power amp might be an alternative upgrade for a few hundred pounds.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/for-mash-get-ash


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WiredUp



Joined: 12/12/04
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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: fay spook]
      #1037999 - 13/03/13 06:05 PM
Quote fay spook:

Quote WiredUp:



Well they sound great in the studio! I am on the passive ones so I wonder if my cheapy samson rackmount amp might be letting them down?





Try another amp if you are concerned. I dont particularly like the Samson. Borrow a Bryston and see if "all amplifiers sound the same". If you like what a different amp does then a second hand power amp might be an alternative upgrade for a few hundred pounds.




Yeah, i'd thought about that but I'm quite set on getting some new monitors, I think its time.


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WiredUp



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038002 - 13/03/13 06:09 PM
Mmm, that's quite some praise for the Neumann's here. Its hard to ignore Hugh's recommendation seeing as he has access to the best of the best.

I intend to keep the Circle 5's, they're great for listening to music on. Actually believe it or not I picked them up on ebay for less than £150 several years ago. A woofer died a couple of years ago. The replacement was £200 from HHB! They have been great though.

I just want something that will really let me hear what's going on with my mixes.


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whis4ey



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038009 - 13/03/13 06:50 PM
Quote:

It's quite alright! But he does have a valid point, actually



The reality of life is that when a company manufacture a product they look to see what price it will bear in the market place. That price takes into account, comparable products (the niche),the competition, and of course, the reputation of the manufacturer ( amongst others)
Monitors with the Neumann name will sell better than those under the name Bloggs & Co.
It is NOT a question of 'increasing your price'
The reply was rude, unnecessary, and unnecessarily rude. Were I to use JW's own terminology I could describe his reply as rubbish. I just think it is somewhat naive. I would much have preferred him (if he wanted to pick out an individual part of my post) to have simply said that he disagreed. However ... everyone to their own

--------------------
Sam


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WiredUp



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: whis4ey]
      #1038015 - 13/03/13 07:19 PM
Quote whis4ey:

Quote:

It's quite alright! But he does have a valid point, actually



The reality of life is that when a company manufacture a product they look to see what price it will bear in the market place. That price takes into account, comparable products (the niche),the competition, and of course, the reputation of the manufacturer ( amongst others)
Monitors with the Neumann name will sell better than those under the name Bloggs & Co.
It is NOT a question of 'increasing your price'
The reply was rude, unnecessary, and unnecessarily rude. Were I to use JW's own terminology I could describe his reply as rubbish. I just think it is somewhat naive. I would much have preferred him (if he wanted to pick out an individual part of my post) to have simply said that he disagreed. However ... everyone to their own




Sam, I agree with you. Neumann's name on a product in itself will generate far more interest/sales, that's a fact! Brand is everything and as someone who does not currently own anything made by Neuamann its certainly tempting me to go for their monitors. But anyway, thanks for your help. I still can't quite make my mind up


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: whis4ey]
      #1038018 - 13/03/13 07:43 PM
Quote whis4ey:

Quote:

It's quite alright! But he does have a valid point, actually



The reality of life is that when a company manufacture a product they look to see what price it will bear in the market place. That price takes into account, comparable products (the niche),the competition, and of course, the reputation of the manufacturer ( amongst others)
Monitors with the Neumann name will sell better than those under the name Bloggs & Co.
It is NOT a question of 'increasing your price'
The reply was rude, unnecessary, and unnecessarily rude. Were I to use JW's own terminology I could describe his reply as rubbish. I just think it is somewhat naive. I would much have preferred him (if he wanted to pick out an individual part of my post) to have simply said that he disagreed. However ... everyone to their own




Sorry, but it gets my goat when people just assume that because a product has a "name", that it's more expensive just because of the name - sorry, yours was the post that broke the camel's back. I was not intending to be rude and I'm sorry you thought it so - it was just I had been reading too much of these incorrect assumptions. Especially as the KH120A is rather inexpensive compared to the quality you get.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: whis4ey]
      #1038036 - 13/03/13 09:18 PM
Quote whis4ey:

Monitors with the Neumann name will sell better than those under the name Bloggs & Co.




Probably so... But only if the alternative brand in question is an unknown, and the potential purchaser is ignorant of the market and the background.

The reality is that the K+H brand had/has a very long and highly enviable reputation for high quality studio monitors. Neumann, in contrast, had no name and no reputation for monitors... only microphones which are, quite obviously, an entirely different proposition and technology.

Given these facts, buying a speaker from a microphone manufacturer with an unproven record would seem, on the surface, a rather foolish proposition, rather than a major sales asset! Moreover, the evidence is actually that the products are extremely competitively priced, and so I would suggest that your claim that potential purchasers would be 'paying for the name' is rather wide of the mark.... I'm not surprised the comment was 'rubbished'.

Quote:

The reply was rude, unnecessary, and unnecessarily rude.




With respect, I think you are over-reacting quite dramatically, but as we all know it is very difficult to interpret comments on a forum without knowing the context and intent of the poster. Knowing JW personally, I know his intention was not to be rude or to offend. He was just reacting strongly to what he perceived as a rather contentious assertion.

H

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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038041 - 13/03/13 09:35 PM
Quote WiredUp:

Neumann's name on a product in itself will generate far more interest/sales, that's a fact!




If you're buying mics, or a recording lathe, sure. But Neumann has no pedigree in monitor speakers. Sales are still resting solidly on the reputation of the K+H brand -- which is why Neumann has maintained the connection with the KH prefix on the model numbers.

Quote:

as someone who does not currently own anything made by Neumann its certainly tempting me to go for their monitors.




Basing a purchase decision on a brand that has no track pedigree is as bonkers as basing it on being fashionable... Thankfully the KH120 benefits from all the design expertise of the K+H boffins, regardless of the name on the badge, and that's what matters here.

...but the Focals are fashionable too

H

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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whis4ey



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038042 - 13/03/13 09:38 PM
All I said was " with the Neuman you are paying something for the name" NOT that they were overpriced.
I think that the over reaction lies elsewhere

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Sam


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: whis4ey]
      #1038045 - 13/03/13 09:48 PM
Quote whis4ey:

All I said was " with the Neuman you are paying something for the name" NOT that they were overpriced.




This just proves the point that misunderstandings of language and context are common on forums. The logical implication of your statement is surely that in 'paying something for the name' you are getting less than what you paid for in the product itself. The evidence is that this is not the case -- certainly no more than in the case of any other fashionably attractive brand like Focal, or KRK, of JBL, etc etc...

H

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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whis4ey



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038112 - 14/03/13 09:58 AM
Quote:

' The logical implication of your statement is surely that in 'paying something for the name' you are getting less than what you paid for in the product itself.



No Hugh, your perception of this is wrong
Everything you buy today has an element of 'you are paying something for the name'
As I said in a previous post, when a manufacturer produces a product he looks immediately at the comparative costs of similar products on the market to see how much his own product will bear. He takes into account the quality and expertise of the product obviously, but he also considers just how much the 'name' will add to the value. To deny this I believe, is naive
I don't for one moment dispute the quality of the Neumann monitors. In fact I stated as much in my replies. I believe however, from my own use of the Focals, that their quality must be comparable (I say this of course, not having heard the Neumanns) . When I decided to buy a few months ago the Neumann KH120 and the Focal 50 were my choice (being both of a similar size etc). I opted for the Focals which cost me £800 rather than the Neumann at over a £1000 (there is a little bit of the 'canny Scot' in me). I have NOT been disappointed and I said as much to the original poster
I was taken aback by John Willet's 'attack' and expressed my disapproval
You decided to weigh in and offer him your support repeating that you were not surprised my comment was 'rubbished'
I am singularly unimpressed as of this moment

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Sam


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WiredUp



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038131 - 14/03/13 11:46 AM
Quote:

If you're buying mics, or a recording lathe, sure. But Neumann has no pedigree in monitor speakers. Sales are still resting solidly on the reputation of the K+H brand -- which is why Neumann has maintained the connection with the KH prefix on the model numbers.




With respect Hugh, I think you come at it from a pro end analytic view point. You have a thorough knowledge and experience of, I suspect, nearly all audio manufactures. Most folks don't have that experience. Personally I have never heard of K&H until two days ago so I couldn't tell you if they are high end or not. But most folks who have an interest in recording are aware of Neumann and their reputation. It doesn't matter if they are entering a new product market. I know, and most folks know that Neumann would not put their brand on rubbish product. Their value, I would argue is their brand and the quality it represents. I'm sure I could find a mic similar to a U87 for half the price but you're paying for that name and its reputation. Its the same with all products. A Skoda might be as good a car and half the price of some BMW models but its still a skoda. People would choose the BMW over a Skoda if price was not an issue.

Quote:

Basing a purchase decision on a brand that has no track pedigree is as bonkers as basing it on being fashionable




We may have to agree to disagree but if I decide to go for the KH120, I have to admit that having the Neumann logo in my studio turns me on. Therefore it is a selling point.
Now, if I was you and had the technical understanding & access/experience to nearly every product on the market I'm sure I might be able to resist brand power and stick to hard facts. That's simply not a position most folks can enjoy.


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fay spook



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038151 - 14/03/13 01:21 PM
Quote WiredUp:

Personally I have never heard of K&H until two days ago so I couldn't tell you if they are high end or not.




That is not bad going seeing that you have been a member of the forum for nearly 10 years and, I would hope, a reader of SOS.

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WiredUp



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Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: fay spook]
      #1038163 - 14/03/13 02:03 PM
Quote fay spook:

Quote WiredUp:

Personally I have never heard of K&H until two days ago so I couldn't tell you if they are high end or not.




That is not bad going seeing that you have been a member of the forum for nearly 10 years and, I would hope, a reader of SOS.




Not really, I don't read every thread and I don't get every edition of SOS (though the digital version is hard to resist).

Monitors in the £1000 bracket have never been on my radar before so I probably wouldn't have bothered reading a review.
Its weird though how some brands catch your attention and other don't. I'm familiar with Adam. KRK, Genelec and several others but nope, K&H passed me by.


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uphillbothways



Joined: 19/11/09
Posts: 190
Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038182 - 14/03/13 03:05 PM
The Neumann KH120s are better than the old K&H O110s, but considerably cheaper. In what possible universe does that constitute "paying for the name"?


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whis4ey



Joined: 26/09/11
Posts: 156
Loc: N Ireland
Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038204 - 14/03/13 04:27 PM
I see that Paul White was very partial to the Focal CMS 65's in his SOS review

Quote:

If you want to hear your mix rather than your monitors, these speakers really deserve your consideration, as they have to count as some of the sweetest and most natural-sounding desktop monitors I’ve heard in this price range. Highly recommended




--------------------
Sam


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22410
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: whis4ey]
      #1038209 - 14/03/13 05:17 PM
Quote whis4ey:

No Hugh, your perception of this is wrong
Everything you buy today has an element of 'you are paying something for the name'




I fully appreciated that, W. You are suggesting that the Neumann brand is worth more -- or costs more -- to a potential purchaser than the Focal brand. I simply disagree with that position and have given you several reasons why.

Your contention seems to be that the KH120 and Focal CMS50 are of identical quality and therefore that the extra £200 cost of the Neumann speaker is entirely down to 'brand pricing'. I do not agree with that position; in my opinion and experience the KH120 represents very good value for money indeed, it actually compares with models well above its price range, and I have already expressed my views as to which model I would buy for my own use (if that opinion is of any value to anyone).

That's not to say the Focal's are poor rivals by any means. They are generally very good speakers.

At the end of the day, these are just different opinions shared between friends and like-minded individuals and it is entirely natural to disagree at times. No one -- least of all JW or myself -- have intended insult. We just don't agree with your contentions. No biggie.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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Jeraldo



Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 2387
Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1038241 - 14/03/13 07:49 PM
To the K+H/Neumann fans (and you know who you are):

I have a question. At some point in the future, my favorite sealed boxes are going to die. No sign of it yet, though!

My question is about listening levels and the LF response. For a small ported speaker, like the little Neumann, will I hear any bottom end to the sound when listening at 70-85dBC in a small, damped room?

My little sealed boxes are spec'd only to about 75 or 80 Hz, yet they are still putting out usable (and easily measurable) sound at 40Hz. And below. At low levels.

So how are these ported little boxes when played at low levels?

I have heard them (loudly)-they sound great-but the conditions were not that any real conclusions could be made.


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whis4ey



Joined: 26/09/11
Posts: 156
Loc: N Ireland
Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038256 - 14/03/13 10:17 PM
Quote:

You are suggesting that the Neumann brand is worth more -- or costs more -- to a potential purchaser than the Focal brand




I was doing nothing of the kind
You seem determined to exaggerate a simple statement of fact into something that was never intended
And are now trying to confuse that statement with a suggestion that I was preferring the Focal product to the Neumann
Again I was doing nothing of the kind
I was trying to give the original poster the benefit of my experience with Focal monitors
Nothing more nor nothing less
Whether or not it is all a 'biggie' or not seems somehow to be bothering you
It shouldn't
Your opinion and experience (and indeed John Willet's) is well respected and rightly so
You both have guided me well in the past and that guidance has been appreciated
I hope that my respect for you both has not been affected by this present misunderstanding (if I can call it that)

--------------------
Sam


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
Posts: 12544
Loc: Oxfordshire UK
Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: whis4ey]
      #1038293 - 15/03/13 08:44 AM
Quote whis4ey:

Quote:

You are suggesting that the Neumann brand is worth more -- or costs more -- to a potential purchaser than the Focal brand




I was doing nothing of the kind
You seem determined to exaggerate a simple statement of fact into something that was never intended




Unfortunately, saying "you are paying for the name" is universally taken as meaning that the product is more expensive than it should be because of the name.

Whether you intended to mean this or not, that's the way such a statement is taken by the reader, and what I know was very wrong in regard to the KH120A.

That's all...

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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whis4ey



Joined: 26/09/11
Posts: 156
Loc: N Ireland
Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038300 - 15/03/13 09:30 AM
Quote:

Unfortunately, saying "you are paying for the name" is universally taken as meaning that the product is more expensive than it should be because of the name.



Rubbish
NOT 'more expensive than it SHOULD be' but 'more expensive than it MIGHT OTHERWISE be'
There is a world of difference
It is a great pity that you can't see that and also that you seem absolutely determined to thrash this issue out until doomsday

--------------------
Sam


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22410
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: whis4ey]
      #1038310 - 15/03/13 10:12 AM
Quote whis4ey:

NOT 'more expensive than it SHOULD be' but 'more expensive than it MIGHT OTHERWISE be' There is a world of difference




I hear what you're saying... but the same argument applies to the Focals as the company rides on a huge wave of popularity and positive reviews. So to single out the Neumann brand is, I think, unfair and inaccurate.

I think there certainly are some Neumann products that are seriously over-priced purely because of the name -- microphone shock-mount cradles, as an obvious example -- but the KH speakers don't warrant that criticism in my view.

The only reason I'm still discussing this is because I would be concerned if people dismissed the KH speakers because of fears of overpricing when actually, the reverse is true.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10922
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1038313 - 15/03/13 10:45 AM
Quote Jeraldo:


I have a question. At some point in the future, my favorite sealed boxes are going to die. No sign of it yet, though!





Passive speakers last almost forever if properly treated and good active speakers can usually be fixed so I doubt you are going to have to give up your favourite boxes any time soon.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22410
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1038319 - 15/03/13 11:01 AM
Quote Jeraldo:

My question is about listening levels and the LF response. For a small ported speaker, like the little Neumann, will I hear any bottom end to the sound when listening at 70-85dBC in a small, damped room?




That's something you'll need to assess for yourself, but 85dBC is a fair old level and you'll have no problem. I didn't have any issues with the little KH120s underperforming at typical low-ish listening levels, and I do monitor more quietly than many.

It is often the case that ported speakers don't really 'get going' until the listening volume exceeds a certain threshold, and the cabinet porting and bass driver loading need that level to work as intended. However, this is a generality and some speakers are better or worse than others in this respect. Again, in general smaller speakers work at lower levels better than bigger ones -- probably because of the different cabinet's internal volume of air.

Quote:

My little sealed boxes are spec'd only to about 75 or 80 Hz, yet they are still putting out usable (and easily measurable) sound at 40Hz. And below. At low levels.




Yes, that is a significant benefit of the sealed cabient design -- the very gentle LF roll off mantains useful energy at surprisingly low frequencies, even with small cabinets. In general, ported cabinets have much steeper LF roll offs, so that although the corner frequency might be lower -- giving the appearance on the spec sheet of having greater bass extension -- there isn't much really low bass at all, and usually much less than a sealed cabient.

One benefit of the ATL cabinet designs developed by PMC is that they also have the same very gentle LF roll-off, and also maintain a consistent tonal balance regardless of listening level. These are two reasons why I am such an advocate of PMC monitors, as both are important aspects of what I need from my monitors.

H

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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whis4ey



Joined: 26/09/11
Posts: 156
Loc: N Ireland
Re: Neumann KH120 V Focal CMS65 Monitors new [Re: WiredUp]
      #1038337 - 15/03/13 12:40 PM
Quote:

So to single out the Neumann brand is, I think, unfair and inaccurate.



Aww for goodness sake Hugh ... now you are really flogging the dead horse

--------------------
Sam


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