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Jeraldo



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TLM 107,127
      #1072777 - 01/11/13 03:23 PM
Neumann has announced the TLM 107 as being the first multi-pattern Neumann at under $2000 list. In fact, the TLM 127 was listed at $1800, sold for considerably less. (And it's surprising that the TLM 127 is now listed under "historical microphones!")

True the 127 had only omni and cardioid without the remote control box, but still it was multi-pattern and well under $2000. And had a remote control option, if wanted.

The TLM 127 had a remarkably short production life.

I wish Neumann had pitched the TLM170 in a way that would have increased sales to a point that they could sell the microphone for less. It would have saved the company the significant costs of developing a new microphone. But perhaps that lower the commodity value of the TLM 170 and 193.


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Billum



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1072792 - 01/11/13 04:23 PM
I'm surprised too that Neumann are marketing the TLM 107 partly on the basis of its "completely new user interface" (it's the first thing mentioned in its promo video)! This is hardware! Are we so caught up in the hype of realistic-looking (or skeuomorphic) software recreations that it's the first thing we look at in hardware now too?

There's not a lot you need to do with a mic - polar pattern, hi-pass and pad. Not much wrong with the 'UI' on a U87 in my view - 3 simple switches!

I would've thought with the world's leading mic manufacture that there are more important factors to plug than this - how's the noise level, max spl, distortion? (All actually look excellent!)

Still, rant over, the TLM 107 looks very nice and I wish I could afford one anytime soon...


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Jeraldo



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Billum]
      #1072829 - 01/11/13 07:46 PM
Quote Billum:

I'm surprised too that Neumann are marketing the TLM 107 partly on the basis of its "completely new user interface" (it's the first thing mentioned in its promo video)! This is hardware! Are we so caught up in the hype of realistic-looking (or skeuomorphic) software recreations that it's the first thing we look at in hardware now too?






I missed that part. But without knowing that, I did think the product recalled the exterior design of another product manufactured a bit further to the south.

I hope my comments are taken in the light hearted spirit in which they are offered, but I did think their (Neumann's) claim about product pricing needed to be corrected. Unless I'm wrong-then someone can correct my mistaken assumption.


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John Willett
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1072882 - 02/11/13 11:42 AM
The TLM 127 was discontinued due to RoHS regulations (ie: too expensive to re-engineer compared to sales quantities) and they sold the last of the stock to Thomann who sold it to end users at below the landed cost price that a Neumann distributor could buy it.

It was an excellent mic., but the price was too close to the U87 - so, why buy a 127 when for only a few dollars more you could get the 87.

The new TLM 107 is considerably cheaper - $1,600, which, I guess, will equate to a UK price of £999 if they get their pricing right.

The 107 uses a glued capsule, by the looks of it, like the TLM 102.

It looks like they are producing a modern mic. at an affordable price and the first switchable Neumann under £1k (if my reasoning is correct).

Not that I would get one, of course

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Jeraldo



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: John Willett]
      #1072887 - 02/11/13 12:12 PM
Quote John Willett:

The TLM 127 was discontinued due to RoHS regulations (ie: too expensive to re-engineer compared to sales quantities) and they sold the last of the stock to Thomann who sold it to end users at below the landed cost price that a Neumann distributor could buy it.

It was an excellent mic., but the price was too close to the U87 - so, why buy a 127 when for only a few dollars more you could get the 87.

The new TLM 107 is considerably cheaper - $1,600, which, I guess, will equate to a UK price of £999 if they get their pricing right.

The 107 uses a glued capsule, by the looks of it, like the TLM 102.

It looks like they are producing a modern mic. at an affordable price and the first switchable Neumann under £1k (if my reasoning is correct).

Not that I would get one, of course




That is interesting info, John.

But Neumann is specifying dollars, not £'s, and therefore seemingly referencing the price structure in the Amerian market, and the 127 was always listed at $1800-which is well under $2000, this being about $1000 less than a U87 at the time). Hence Neumann's statement about the the 107 being the first multi pattern to break the $2000 barrier is simply untrue and by a significant degree.

The history of the 127 you provide is an interesting one, and one I suspect few know. It looks like the new 107 will be in interesting mic. However, I don't particularly like electronically controlled pattern or pad switching unless there is a reason for it-remote control, for example. I see it more as an major inconvenience if you need phantom power to change a pattern. But perhaps I'm missing something.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1072891 - 02/11/13 12:21 PM
I suspect this is a simple case of the marketing getting a bit confused and over enthusiastic...


H

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Jeraldo



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1072894 - 02/11/13 12:33 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

I suspect this is a simple case of the marketing getting a bit confused and over enthusiastic...


H




But they should be called on it by august publications if it's one of the major qualities about the mic/product that they are hyping. (Friendly jest, request, and compliment there.)

But I agree with you, Hugh.

I look forward to your review of a mic that looks promising and might be bit of a change in direction, sonically speaking. I hope you (or the reviewer who gets the presumed assigment) can put it up against a 170, 193, or 89, as well as those mic's enjoying greater popularity at this time.


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John Willett
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1072903 - 02/11/13 02:36 PM
The full details are now on the Neumann website HERE.

The frequency response curve and polar-pattern is HERE - you can see how the frequency response changes with the selected polar-pattern and, also, see how the polar-pattern changes with frequency by clicking the relevant pattern and frequency icons.

The PDF of the brochure is here.

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Matthew Ottewill



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1073817 - 09/11/13 12:58 AM
It would be interesting to hear a head to head between all the Neumann TM variants. I suspect there's not a lot to separate some of them and many exist to meet a marketing requirement for new product.

Wasn't it Jony Ive who said that we shouldn't mistake abundance with choice?

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Bob Bickerton
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Matthew Ottewill]
      #1073831 - 09/11/13 06:47 AM
Quote Matthew Ottewill:

It would be interesting to hear a head to head between all the Neumann TM variants. I suspect there's not a lot to separate some of them and many exist to meet a marketing requirement for new product.

Wasn't it Jony Ive who said that we shouldn't mistake abundance with choice?




Clearly you haven't heard them. The TLM mics I've auditioned have all been very different either in frequency response or polar pattern options.

Bob

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Matthew Ottewill



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Bob Bickerton]
      #1073843 - 09/11/13 11:34 AM
I stand corrected!

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John Willett
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Bob Bickerton]
      #1073846 - 09/11/13 11:55 AM
Quote Bob Bickerton:

Quote Matthew Ottewill:

It would be interesting to hear a head to head between all the Neumann TM variants. I suspect there's not a lot to separate some of them and many exist to meet a marketing requirement for new product.

Wasn't it Jony Ive who said that we shouldn't mistake abundance with choice?




Clearly you haven't heard them. The TLM mics I've auditioned have all been very different either in frequency response or polar pattern options.

Bob




Correct - Each microphone is engineered for a specific set of properties.

All "TLM" means, is that it is electronically balanced with no transformer to colour the sound.

There are as many differences between the transformer mics as the transformerless ones.

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Tim Gillett



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1073859 - 09/11/13 12:20 PM
Yes John Willett a few posts up provides some links to the Neumann data. They show that even within one mic, the treble response changes somewhat depending on the polar pattern selected. This is normal to the design and you'd expect similar changes in similar types of multipattern condenser mics.
No two mics will sound exactly the same either, even of the same make and model, and using the same polar pattern.

But how much those differences make in practice depends on many factors, hence often the controversies which can rage around mics.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Tim Gillett]
      #1073873 - 09/11/13 01:38 PM
Quote Tim Gillett:

No two mics will sound exactly the same either, even of the same make and model, and using the same polar pattern.




As with all equipment manufacturer, there will inevitably be small gain, polar, and frequency response variances due to production tolerances. The better the manufacturer, the smaller those tolerance variations will be... and vice versa!

However, I can't agree with the statement that "no two mics will sound exactly the same"... I have several sets of identical model mics (from various well-known high-end manufacturers) which were bought separately (and in some cases from batches made many years apart) but which all sound completely identical to each other. (I have no doubt that minor differences could be revealed in a measurement chamber, but the tolerances are more than tight enough for practical purposes).

In fairness, I have also tested various 'matched stereo pairs' from one or two budget manufacturers which were very obviously anything but!

Nevertheless, the only time accurate mic pair matching becomes critical is when using multiple mics of the same type in a stereo or surround array, especially a coincident array since frequency and polar response differences will create relative level differences and hence image shifts. Mics of the same model (used in the same configuration) should sound the same, and the easiest and quickest way of checking that, is as explained in this Q&A:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may06/articles/qa0506_1.htm

This technique will reveal tolerance variations of less than 1dB given good listening conditions and monitors, and quickly identify unmatched mics which are unsuited to coincident pair applications.

H

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Tim Gillett



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1073925 - 10/11/13 02:40 AM
Yes the differences may not even be audible to the listener, but as you say they will be there in the mics, perhaps only revealed by a measurement chamber, perhaps not. Either way the (very small) differences will be there.

As I also said,

Quote Tim Gillett:



But how much those differences make in practice depends on many factors, hence often the controversies which can rage around mics.




Tim


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Bob Bickerton
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Tim Gillett]
      #1073926 - 10/11/13 03:29 AM
Quote Tim Gillett:

Yes the differences may not even be audible to the listener, but as you say they will be there in the mics, perhaps only revealed by a measurement chamber, perhaps not. Either way the (very small) differences will be there.

As I also said,

Quote Tim Gillett:



But how much those differences make in practice depends on many factors, hence often the controversies which can rage around mics.




Tim




I'm pleased you're trying to wriggle out of this one early Tim.

Just to be clear Hugh was correcting your earlier erroneous statement: "No two mics will sound exactly the same either, even of the same make and model, and using the same polar pattern". True there may be small differences, but if they are inaudible, which they tend to be with higher end manufacturers, then your statement is incorrect and misleading.

And an observation: I think you give yourself too much credit in suggesting "controversies which can rage around mics", as it implies you have a debatable alternative view on the issue of microphones, which is simply not the case. Your comment does rather underline your motive in contributing to these fora though.

Bob

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Tim Gillett



Joined: 30/01/13
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Bob Bickerton]
      #1073933 - 10/11/13 10:59 AM
Bob,

I should have been more clear in my wording. What I meant was the actual differences in output from the mics, whether we can hear those differences with our own ears or not. Sure, if the differences are inaudible that's good, is it not?

But if you'd like to, we could get down to specifics. What in fact are the manufacturing tolerances for various particular high end mics of your choice across say the 20hz to 20khz spectrum? I note with some of the Neumann TLM models it is + or - 2db, ie: a total of 4 db. Perhaps you have other mic models in mind. Over to you or anyone else.

Tim


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Bob Bickerton]
      #1073943 - 10/11/13 12:43 PM
Quote Bob Bickerton:

I'm pleased you're trying to wriggle out of this one early Tim.




Thanks Bob. That made me spray my morning coffee!

H

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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Tim Gillett]
      #1073944 - 10/11/13 12:53 PM
Quote Tim Gillett:

I should have been more clear in my wording.




It would be better if you stuck to things you know about, instead of making daft claims and then wriggle and backtrack...

However, regarding the response tolerances, most decent manufacturers quote a nominal maximum tolerance of +/-2dB, largely to give themselves 'wriggle room'. However, normal production tolerances are generally much tighter than this for the top manufacturers. Of those companies that offer stereo pair matching the tolerances are normally quoted as +/-0.5dB. My own experience as related above is that actually the normal production tolerances for the top manufacturers are not far adrift from that anyway. Certainly I have same model mics from very different batches that are easily within +/-0.5dB of each other.

You might find this page from DPAs website informative.

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/Technology-G...

H

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Tim Gillett



Joined: 30/01/13
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1073951 - 10/11/13 02:02 PM
Deleted by Tim in response to Moderator's PM. 10.11pm Perth, Western Australia Time

Edited by Tim Gillett (10/11/13 02:11 PM)


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John Willett
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1074040 - 11/11/13 11:39 AM
I did hear tell of a broadcaster who bought a batch of 50 x TLM 103 microphones (I think it was) and an engineer was asked to test them all for acceptance.

He found that the difference between the "best" and the "worst" was only 0.5dB.

That's closer than most "matched pairs".

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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: John Willett]
      #1074055 - 11/11/13 02:32 PM
That's an interesting anecdote, John, but I'm really not surprised in how tight Neumann's production tolerances are in practice. That certainly matches my own experiences.

H

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Tim Gillett



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: John Willett]
      #1074132 - 12/11/13 12:51 AM
Hugh, some time ago you mentioned narrow band peaks and troughs which we dont see in the "smoothed" published response plots, but which are audible in vocal recordings using a single mic.

Are we to assume here that those peaks and troughs match each other to a high degree between the samples, and therefore do not compromise the actual 0.5db matching between these mic samples?

Tim


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Jeraldo



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: John Willett]
      #1074136 - 12/11/13 03:10 AM
Quote John Willett:

I did hear tell of a broadcaster who bought a batch of 50 x TLM 103 microphones (I think it was) and an engineer was asked to test them all for acceptance.

He found that the difference between the "best" and the "worst" was only 0.5dB.

That's closer than most "matched pairs".




Would that have been 0.5dB in output, or some difference in an on axis frequency response test, or an off axis difference of some kind? I'm jesting-I have no doubt they were for all intents identical.

I contribute this in the interest of trivia rather than importance.

Since you mention the 103's, the early releases (of 103's) had some quickly noticed niggles. Many of the mic's had diaphragms pointed noticeably off axis, enough to effect HF performance, and some of them looked a little strange as well! The cause, explained at the time, was due to an unusually difficult capsule assembly/mount procedure peculiar to that mic. (Still, one has to question QC. Did they even look at the mic they assembled?) Neumann fixed the mic's, of course, and, as expected, quickly addressed the assembly problem. Everyone lived happily ever after.

Remember, TG, that this is a trivia story. And we only know of the little story because of Neumann's consistent practice of information transparency.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Tim Gillett]
      #1074147 - 12/11/13 09:33 AM
Quote Tim Gillett:

Hugh, some time ago you mentioned narrow band peaks and troughs which we dont see in the "smoothed" published response plots, but which are audible in vocal recordings using a single mic.




They are not generally directly audible in themselves, but they do affect the perception of voices since they alter the balance of voice components in unnatural ways.

Quote:

Are we to assume here that those peaks and troughs match each other to a high degree between the samples, and therefore do not compromise the actual 0.5db matching between these mic samples?




They are largely caused by aspects of physical construction and thus tend to be very similar between (undamaged) mics of the same model. Using the method I outlined earlier it would seem empirically that all response variations remain pretty closely matched.

H

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Tim Gillett



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1074161 - 12/11/13 11:58 AM
Quote Jeraldo:



Remember, TG, that this is a trivia story. And we only know of the little story because of Neumann's consistent practice of information transparency.





Jeraldo, my initials are TG. To whom were you referring and why?


Tim


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Jeraldo



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Tim Gillett]
      #1074285 - 13/11/13 12:11 AM
Quote Tim Gillett:


Jeraldo, my initials are TG. To whom were you referring and why?
Tim




Sorry for any confusion.

I was concerned that my anecdote might be drawn into the very wide ranging technical discussion as technical data or as support of an argument, and wanted to be sure that would not happen.


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Tim Gillett



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1074293 - 13/11/13 01:38 AM
Quote Jeraldo:

Quote Tim Gillett:


Jeraldo, my initials are TG. To whom were you referring and why?
Tim




Sorry for any confusion.

I was concerned that my anecdote might be drawn into the very wide ranging technical discussion as technical data or as support of an argument, and wanted to be sure that would not happen.





That was understood. For the second time, to whom did the TG refer and why, meaning why did you address that person specifically?

Tim

Edited by Tim Gillett (13/11/13 01:41 AM)


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Bob Bickerton
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Tim Gillett]
      #1074298 - 13/11/13 02:29 AM
Quote Tim Gillett:

Quote Jeraldo:

Quote Tim Gillett:


Jeraldo, my initials are TG. To whom were you referring and why?
Tim




Sorry for any confusion.

I was concerned that my anecdote might be drawn into the very wide ranging technical discussion as technical data or as support of an argument, and wanted to be sure that would not happen.





That was understood. For the second time, to whom did the TG refer and why, meaning why did you address that person specifically?

Tim




Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest he was referring to you Tim, the reason being he had something interesting to say, that would be typically picked up by yourself, misconstrued and used to torture us for days to come.

Don't you think it's time to stop pissing around?

Bob

P.S. For non antipodeans the New Zealand Information website translates as: Piss around - waste time, muck around

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Tim Gillett



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1074303 - 13/11/13 05:13 AM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote Tim Gillett:

Hugh, some time ago you mentioned narrow band peaks and troughs which we dont see in the "smoothed" published response plots, but which are audible in vocal recordings using a single mic.




They are not generally directly audible in themselves, but they do affect the perception of voices since they alter the balance of voice components in unnatural ways.

Quote:

Are we to assume here that those peaks and troughs match each other to a high degree between the samples, and therefore do not compromise the actual 0.5db matching between these mic samples?




They are largely caused by aspects of physical construction and thus tend to be very similar between (undamaged) mics of the same model. Using the method I outlined earlier it would seem empirically that all response variations remain pretty closely matched.

H




Thanks Hugh for the concise, considered and courteous reply.

Tim

Edited by Tim Gillett (13/11/13 05:27 AM)


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Mike Stranks
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Tim Gillett]
      #1074316 - 13/11/13 09:54 AM
Quote Tim Gillett:

Quote Jeraldo:

Quote Tim Gillett:


Jeraldo, my initials are TG. To whom were you referring and why?
Tim




Sorry for any confusion.

I was concerned that my anecdote might be drawn into the very wide ranging technical discussion as technical data or as support of an argument, and wanted to be sure that would not happen.





That was understood. For the second time, to whom did the TG refer and why, meaning why did you address that person specifically?

Tim



Don't be so disingenuous Tim.

You knew full-well that Jeraldo was referring to you. If you really don't know why he framed his response as he did - which he's now explained - I begin to understand more of your psyche and some understanding of why you post as you do.

To save being questioned myself, let me amplify. Your tenacity in pursuing a line of reasoning which has been shown to be flawed, or far more complex than you seem prepared to admit, is breathtaking. Like several other of us regulars, Jeraldo was worried that you'd seize on an inconsequential remark, pick-up on an aspect of it and start another erroneous line of reasoning, pursuing it come hell or high water.

Personally, I have no objection to anyone asking "So does that mean...?" "So why don't people just...?" questions. What I do object to is a refusal in the light of answers received to say, "OK, clearly I misunderstood/was wrong etc etc".

One of the dirtiest words in Internet vocabulary is 'Troll'. As yet I don't believe that you are, but my antennae are starting to twitch.

Just unwind and 'give' a bit and we'll all get on much better.


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ConcertinaChap



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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Mike Stranks]
      #1074337 - 13/11/13 11:56 AM
The man's no troll. There is a recording engineer called Tim Gillett in Perth so he's posting under his own name and clearly is willing to be identified with his opinions. This is not by any stretch troll-like behaviour and since, as you say, it is a dirty word on the Net I think even the suggestion should be avoided for the maintenance of good manners.

Tim certainly needs to unwind a bit, but then perhaps so do the rest of us.

Come on everyone, give us a nice smile now. Whose round is it?



CC

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Mike Stranks
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Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1074360 - 13/11/13 02:05 PM
I am well-aware that Tim Gillett is a real person. I am equally well-aware of the seriousness of suggesting that someone might be a troll. I'd best leave it there...

Exasperation is getting the better of me!

Over and out!


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Bob Bickerton
active member


Joined: 20/12/02
Posts: 3146
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: ConcertinaChap]
      #1074408 - 13/11/13 06:57 PM
Quote ConcertinaChap:

The man's no troll. There is a recording engineer called Tim Gillett in Perth so he's posting under his own name and clearly is willing to be identified with his opinions. This is not by any stretch troll-like behaviour and since, as you say, it is a dirty word on the Net I think even the suggestion should be avoided for the maintenance of good manners.

Tim certainly needs to unwind a bit, but then perhaps so do the rest of us.

Come on everyone, give us a nice smile now. Whose round is it?



CC




Forum Rule 17:

Unfortunately the SOS forums sometimes attract the attention of Internet Trolls who seek to cause disharmony among the legitimate users by making spurious or inflammatory posts.

Nothing about operating incognito there........ I admit he's very sophisticated, but the end result?

Oh and it would appear history is repeating itself..........

Bob (who occasionally lives under a bridge).

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz


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ConcertinaChap



Joined: 20/07/05
Posts: 2689
Loc: Bradford on Avon
Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1074419 - 13/11/13 11:11 PM
So I take it from that no-one's going to buy me a beer. Hey ho.

CC

--------------------
Remember: Tidy wires are happy wires!
Mr Punch's Studio


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22053
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: ConcertinaChap]
      #1074421 - 13/11/13 11:19 PM
Have one on me CC. Tell the barman to put it on my mess bill!

H

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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Mike Stranks
active member


Joined: 03/01/03
Posts: 3829
Loc: Oxford, UK
Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1074455 - 14/11/13 09:06 AM
... and I'll pay for the crisps!


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Tim Gillett



Joined: 30/01/13
Posts: 580
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Jeraldo]
      #1074605 - 15/11/13 03:17 AM
I'd happily join you if you'd let me and the first round would be on me. Sadly my antipodean status makes it a bit difficult logistically.

Busy packing for an annual weekend acoustic music festival in the Aussie bush with musical friends, so may be a bit isolated for a short while from what happens in the sometimes dizzying realm of cyberspace!

Tim


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ConcertinaChap



Joined: 20/07/05
Posts: 2689
Loc: Bradford on Avon
Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: Tim Gillett]
      #1074677 - 15/11/13 06:05 PM
Have fun! If you see a mate of mine called Pete Hyde (melodeon maker, frequently goes to such festivals) say Chris Timson says hi.

CC

--------------------
Remember: Tidy wires are happy wires!
Mr Punch's Studio


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Tim Gillett



Joined: 30/01/13
Posts: 580
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Re: TLM 107,127 new [Re: ConcertinaChap]
      #1074906 - 17/11/13 09:29 PM
Thanks Chris. I've sent a PM.

Tim


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