http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=110-439&vRevie wShow=1&vReviewRand=2818820

Ye gods! Come home, MK, all is forgiven...

Read a couple of the comments. I believe it shows that Americans can have a self-deprecating sense of humour...

Yeah, some of the comments are so tongue in cheek it's a wonder it doesn't come out the other side. Good stuff.

Chris

--------------------
Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

This was really funny

Reminds me of reading those Hi-Fi mags, talking about a 5-way power conditioner giving the bass more authority! I wonder if everything you plug into it tells you off? Hi-fi voodoo is always entertaining!

--------------------
Director, singer-songwriter and producer.
Click here for my portfolio

Always nice to see people jumping on any product that does just offer "value" as its benefit. Have a look at what is being claimed...

Cryogenic heat treat hardened contacts
Solid brass contact construction
Three step 24k gold plating process
Triple wiper design increases contact area
Superior performance over standard receptacles

which bit is hoodoo? They say they have a 3 step plating process and I have no doubt they actually do that etc. I am sure you have all seen MK sockets and how their attention to detail results in superior performance over standard receptacles, if that performance is reliability or whatever else you want to judge performance by. This part is available to anyone and not just hi-fi people. Why not try one and report back, you can get your money back if you dont think it does anything (I understand it is a US spec socket)? And no one is making you buy it.

I have a custom made (by myself) multiway mains distributor. It sounds better than a standard strip one. Why? I have it wired with each IEC flying lead hard wired to a bar one each for LNE giving me a star earth configuration. Not bendy strips making contact for mains plugs. 100% reliable too. Cost me a couple of quid. Systems like good earths. Electricians like a good earth too.

Quote fay spook:

---

Have a look at what is being claimed...

Three step 24k gold plating process

which bit is hoodoo? They say they have a 3 step plating process and I have no doubt they actually do that etc.

---

Let's see, exactly: "A three-layer plating process is also completed on the 381: Oxygen free copper plating, electrolysis nickel, and finally 24k gold plating."

Yep, that's pretty much the standard way to electroplate gold onto brass, first plate copper on the brass, then plate nickel onto the copper, then plate gold onto the nickel. IOW, that is how everyone does it - in those same 3 steps, necessarily, in plating shops everywhere.

Now, it is of course nice that they do go to the bother of plating their terminals and contacts with gold, that certainly has its merits, but they could have just said "gold plated for corrosion-free contact" rather than touting a conventional 3-step plating process as being something special they do. What's special is that they use gold, that's all, not how they apply it to the brass. Would basically be the same 3 steps if they'd used chrome (except with chrome as 3rd step, instead of gold).

The comments in the "reviews" were rather clever though!

I really must have a little chat with EDF about the contacts on their circuit breakers.

Next on the list is GEM, MK etc. about the rubbish they stuff in domestic distribution units.

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

With my tongue slightly in my cheek......

It is a shame you think MK is rubbish. A lot of audiophiles rate their products, so it is a shame people in the pro world dont. I spec'd them when I had work done around my house. Great products, you should try them.

What items like the Wattgate are trying to do is lessen any problems in one part of the whole chain of sound reproduction. Some people put RF filters on their mains supply or try to take SMPS off the spurs where audio equipment is plugged in. Or you could be using different supports or acoustic treatments. The Wattgate is looking at mains. Sound quality is important to me and so I have looked at trying to lessen any mains issues for my hi-fi. I am sure a lot of people here try to achieve the best recording quality and nobody appears to get too upset about that. The trouble is an awful lot of recorded music will only be heard in some compressed format, so why bother? It must be to please people with high resolution home audio systems aka audiophiles....
but they are the ones who think lessening any problems with mains is a good thing- and that is wrong- so why bother.....???

Quote fay spook:

---

which bit is hoodoo?

---

Claims that it makes any difference whatsoever to the performance of anything plugged into it.

Quote fay spook:

---

With my tongue slightly in my cheek......

---

Which I really hope is where it's been all along :-)

You don't REALLY think that putting a few feet of magic cable, or a magic wall socket at the end of the miles of cable between you and the power station would have any effect?

Quote:

---

Claims that it makes any difference whatsoever to the performance of anything plugged into it.

---

But where does it say that?

A well made socket, in this case with non-tarnishing contacts etc will have "Superior performance over standard receptacles". Why else are people talking about MK etc, you can save money by using other parts but people want the superior performance MK offers.

And yes I am saying the last couple of yards of cable will have an effect. But I am not talking about magic cable- perhaps this wont (I havent claimed any magic and neither has Wattgate). I dont understand how it couldnt. How big that effect is is another argument but not the one you are making. Try a couple of simple examples, take the neon out of a cheap mains block or use an extender cable still coiled up in its drum. How about a couple more, unplug all the SMPS wallwarts on the same spur as your amps or star earth all your mains cables for the audio chain. All in the last link but all make a difference. How big the difference is is again another argument.

I havent tried the Wattgate and I wont comment on them until I do. But I do spec MK sockets etc. Does that mean I am only half wrong?

Quote fay spook:

---

And yes I am saying the last couple of yards of cable will have an effect.

---

Placing a meter of 1-inch nylon anchor hawser at the end of 30 feet of bailing twine won't make the total rope any stronger! the same is true of 'magic' IEC cables.

Quote:

---

Try a couple of simple examples, take the neon out of a cheap mains block

---

Neons are a well known source of interference. Removing one from a dis-board is obviously going to be advantageous, particularly if the equipment powered from the mains block have inadequate power supply filtering.

Quote:

---

..or use an extender cable still coiled up in its drum

---

.

Increasing the supply inductance and potentially causing trouble with inadequately designed equipment poewr supplies...

Quote:

---

unplug all the SMPS wallwarts on the same spur as your amps

---

Again removing known interference sources... but only effective if the amps have poor power supply smoothing and isolation.

Quote:

---

...or star earth all your mains cables for the audio chain.

---

Something we routinely advocaete to minimise ground loops -- known good practice.

Notice a common theme here... the magical effects and benefits are almost always only 'magical' because the equipment is badly designed in the first place.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote fay spook:

---

With my tongue slightly in my cheek.....

---

More smileys needed to differentiate between irony and balloon juice.

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote fay spook:

---

A lot of audiophiles rate their products, so it is a shame people in the pro world dont.

---

Something in that I reckon!!!

Quote fay spook:

---

Quote:

---

Claims that it makes any difference whatsoever to the performance of anything plugged into it.

---

But where does it say that?

---

"If you are building your own audiophile power cord to improve component performance, you need the WattGate 381 receptacle."

To be fair, they make no explicit claims though. Presumably they're aware of the laws on making provably-false claims to sell their products.

To take an example myself, let's say I'm out in the fields near my house. I let rip a loud fart - which frightens the horse that's been stood on my foot and refusing to move for the last five minutes. So clearly farting is a miracle cure for sore feet!

Nice to know I'm not the only one who can do horse-frightening farts ...

Quote grab:

---

Quote fay spook:

---

Quote:

---

Claims that it makes any difference whatsoever to the performance of anything plugged into it.

---

But where does it say that?

---

"If you are building your own audiophile power cord to improve component performance, you need the WattGate 381 receptacle."

To be fair, they make no explicit claims though. Presumably they're aware of the laws on making provably-false claims to sell their products.

To take an example myself, let's say I'm out in the fields near my house. I let rip a loud fart - which frightens the horse that's been stood on my foot and refusing to move for the last five minutes. So clearly farting is a miracle cure for sore feet!

---

Brilliant! I hope this example can be expanded to cover other legally grey areas. This is just the kind of clear thinking we need to counter such obviously misleading marketing bull.

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

So no claims of magic and no claims of voodoo.

Quote:

---

Placing a meter of 1-inch nylon anchor hawser at the end of 30 feet of bailing twine won't make the total rope any stronger! the same is true of 'magic' IEC cables.

---

But it wont make the twine any weaker. I think this is the perspective we should look at here. You are attempting to decrease the losses. During a Studio SOS are you making the studio sound better or less bad? With an all analogue system it is all about trying to recover as much as possible from your source and then losing the least amount of it- also via decreasing the effects of outside interference. With a digital source you will be able to improve on the source through error correction and reclocking etc.

The techniques I mention all affect the end of the mains supply we can deal with safely and legally- the only way I deal with mains. The Wattgate is offered as part of this, the company suggests no magic or voodoo. All I have done is as per my posts, a nice separate spur, armored cable, non-switched MK sockets, mains "hydra" with star earthing (perhaps the source of better bass?) and nothing but the hi-fi plugged into that spur. All off the shelf products, again with no magic. In the studio at home it all runs off one long Olsen strip and in the studios at work its all 32A commando connectors.

I recently purchased a Neve jumper and you'd be amazed at how much warmth (and low end of course) it has provided....Because of the IA3CB29A design concept integrating the all famous D375 knitting technique plus wool from the extremely rare 'Afghan one legged sheep' I now have isolated yet circulating warmth. Also, due to the low end it excites, I also have a big butt. This has saved me at least 10 grand in 'ho butt enlargement surgery' and I am now a proud man.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote fay spook:

---

But it wont make the twine any weaker.

---

Actually, it might well, depending on which knot you use! But that's another argument entirely... I take your point -- it can't add further degradation. Equally, it would be a pointless expenditure for no obvious benefit... which is the whole point of this thread, surely?

Quote:

---

You are attempting to decrease the losses.

---

But you can't remove losses that have already occured -- and given the length of so-so mains cable in a typical house, plus the cable back to the substation, the potential further degradation of two meters of equipment mains cable is utterly insignificant.

Quote:

---

During a Studio SOS are you making the studio sound better or less bad?

---

Less bad, usually

Quote:

---

With an all analogue system it is all about trying to recover as much as possible from your source and then losing the least amount of it

---

Sure... but that has little to do with the main leads...

Quote:

---

... via decreasing the effects of outside interference.

---

Ah yes. Now we're getting to the crux of the matter. Poorly designed hifi equipment that is not adequately protected against external interference. This same point comes up again and again and again...

Quote:

---

With a digital source you will be able to improve on the source through error correction and reclocking etc.

---

Error correction is part of the format and not under a user's control. And reclocking is only necessary if the interfaces are badly designed! Common theme again...

Quote:

---

All I have done is as per my posts, a nice separate spur

---

Yes, there can be some sense in that if there would otherwise be very heavy current demands on the existing mains supply to the hifi.

Quote:

---

armored cable

---

Looks impressive, but not much point unless you are fearful of men with pick-axes working in your living room all the time!

Quote:

---

non-switched MK sockets

---

No problem with that

Quote:

---

mains "hydra" with star earthing (perhaps the source of better bass?)

---

It will definitely help remove ground loop issues, and by removing any residual 50Hz ground hums you might perceive the bass to have 'tightened up'

The only thing there that is likely to make any significant difference is the bespoke star grounding arrangement, and possibly the separate spur if you have some heavy current-drawing machinery on the normal ring main. In my humble opinion, of course!

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

> And yes I am saying the last couple of yards of cable will have an effect.

I prefer to eliminate those last couple of yards. That's why I take all my recording gear over to my neighbours house when I mix. I find those couple of yards less cable (they live closer to the generator you see) makes a big difference to the mixes I'm producing. The difference between 20 kilometers and 19.9999999 kilometers of power cable is astounding!

Oh my, we all definitely need one of these:

http://www.audiolimits.com/html/_isotek_solus_power_conditione.html

"Using our advanced ‘Polaris-X’ technology the Solus is able to draw mains contaminants away from audio components plugged into the unit."

Mains contaminants! Who knew, who knew? Hoo doo?

(Not to be confused with Sola power conditioners, mighty humming harmonic filtering beasties)

The Wattgate is offered to go into a complete system. All the good techniques I mention are also part of this. Are most of them to help with bad design elsewhere, perhaps but if you can help yourself then why not? For every phone charger or wallwart I am sure there are proper SMPS. But there wont be any of them on the hi-fi supply from my fuse box.

Have a look here

<a href="/sos/jul03/articles/mainsproblems.asp" target="_blank">http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul03/articles/mainsproblems.asp</a& gt;

Quote:

---

Enhanced Mains Connectors

These may include better grades of standard connectors, particularly ones with gold-plated contact surfaces. These may seem to make little sense until you realise that most of the time (outside the mains' peak voltage points), the mains connection to your gear can be acting as an aerial for all manner of RF signals that pervade the air around us. At this point, mains plug and socket contacts have only tiny leakage and transformer-magnetising currents flowing in them, and can easily act as detectors (demodulators) of radio signals (when high current is flowing, it can break through the layer of grime and oxidised metal on the contacts, but when the current level is low, the oxidised grime's radio-detecting effect can be stronger). The detected signal then makes its way into the audio path, adding background noise. It is therefore unsurprising that some people who fit gold-plated mains plugs, which don't corrode or oxidise, report enhanced sonic clarity, depth and the like. However, if the area in which your studio is located doesn't suffer from the kind of RF problems that cleaner connections reduce, you may reasonably regard a mains plug with specially plated pins as 'snake oil'. On the other hand, if there's an AM transmitter nearby (long wave, medium wave, or short wave), such plugs could have quite an effect. Even so, if the sort of music you're involved in doesn't benefit from depth or inter-transient silences, you might hear nothing at all.

---

I live within spitting distance of Crystal Palace. I am between the main transmitters and what looks like an auxillary tower. I see the main tower out of my living room window.

Again to stress the point of the last yards, why do they measure the earth impedance at your house? Why does sinking an earth spike help with this even though it is at the end of "miles" of cable? On a slight tangent we also have building regs and IEEE standards and I wouldnt like to argue that internal wiring has no effect because of the preceding "miles" here.

Quote fay spook:

---

I live within spitting distance of Crystal Palace. I am between the main transmitters and what looks like an auxillary tower. I see the main tower out of my living room window.

---

Hard luck! My grandparents lived in the shadow of Alexandria Palace, and could power a light-bulb in their loft simply by hanging up a (not very) long-wire aerial.

Yes, an excellent local earthing point could be a very good idea. You could even be one of the few people in the UK who might benefit from extra power cleaning or isolation. But fussing over the last foot of power cable or gold-plating your mains socket really isn't going to make any difference.

Do not, under any circumstances, fit a local earth yourself unless you know exactly what you are doing. You could end up creating some rather large loop currents!

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Strongly seconded, messing with safety earth connections(even by 'improving' them takes careful thought and consideration of the possible failure modes (Particularly in a TN-C-S (PME) install), if those letters do not instantly mean something to you, do not even think of going there.

That 'explanation' for why expensive mains connectors are a good idea had me snorting more then somewhat, sure the load current only flows on the peaks (In a simple linear power supply), but why should anyone care if some RF gets demodulated on the primary side (which does not seem massively likely to me anyway)? Mains transformers are not exactly wide band devices and there is a bloody great electrolytic after the rectifier anyway.
The thing folks tend to miss is that sure it all makes a difference, but when an effect can reasonably be expected to be 4 or 5 orders of magnitude below the other noise and distortion in the system, it probably is not particularly relevant to anything.

Nothing wrong with MK sockets by the way, the incremental cost of fitting them is small and they do tend to have much better fit and finish then the CEF bargain range.....

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

I will quote myself

Quote:

---

end of the mains supply we can deal with safely and legally- the only way I deal with mains.

---

I appologise if I gave the impression you should put an earth spike in yourself.

The quote I used to explain why mains connectors might have an effect is from the Ben Duncan article in SOS.

I talk about phone charger SMPS etc affecting what else is connected to the same mains spurs and I am told this is due to their bad design, I call it the real world. Talking to someone from Tesco a few years ago and they were landing DVD players at £5. My challenge here if for someone to design and sell a DVD player for less than that and include a "good quality" power supply. Perhaps not bad design and more clever design to a price? Tescos arent concerned about the sound of my hi-fi when they sell me a DVD player for £20. I also call the issues I find real world. When I was installing hi-fis they would often be fitted in a living room next to the TV. The mains at the back would have numerous chargers, xbox'x, Freeview boxes etc plugged into mains blocks with trailing cables. We wouldnt start with perfection- OK we wouldnt achieve it either.......

The Wattgates are offered as part of a "mains solution". I would run through some, all or more of the tips I have mentioned. I would advise a spur etc to a customer when they asked. We wouldnt spec much outside MKs and properly rated cable, all done in conjunction with the customer's or our sparks. This would usually be when a customer was having a house refurbishment or spending quite a bit on their hi-fi. And in the real world I am sure we all have "temporary" cables in our studios, probably just as often as .

Products for mains in domestic hi-fi are a long way from "magic" cables. But changing an IEC lead is something almost anyone can do. How much difference that makes will be up to the customer and their situation, they can always take it back to the shop if they dont like it. It is odd that people have decided that products like the Wattgate uses magic or voodoo. It might be funny but it isnt what they are saying and all I wanted to do was point this out.

Actually I wasn't running MK down. Just a tongue in cheek reference to the fact that they don't use gold plated anything!

Gold plating is only of any value on contacts that have very little mechanical loading, run at low current, and need to be resistant to corrosion due to hardly ever being moved. This is the exact opposite of the situation with a normal mains plug and socket.

Added to this, gold is not as good a conductor as copper is, and nickel (which underlies the gold) has about 5 to 6 times the resistivity of copper. In fact only silver is a better conductor - and not by very much.

The normal plugging/unplugging would quickly wear away a gold plating, but would actually enhance the behaviour of copper/brass contacts as it would rub away any oxides and improve the polish and fit.

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Quote Folderol:

---

Actually I wasn't running MK down. Just a tongue in cheek reference to the fact that they don't use gold plated anything!

Gold plating is only of any value on contacts that have very little mechanical loading, run at low current, and need to be resistant to corrosion due to hardly ever being moved. This is the exact opposite of the situation with a normal mains plug and socket.

Added to this, gold is not as good a conductor as copper is, and nickel (which underlies the gold) has about 5 to 6 times the resistivity of copper. In fact only silver is a better conductor - and not by very much.

The normal plugging/unplugging would quickly wear away a gold plating, but would actually enhance the behaviour of copper/brass contacts as it would rub away any oxides and improve the polish and fit.

---

Yes, and even using gold plated contacts does not prevent connections from oxidizing. The edge contacts on DRAM modules are typically gold plated (over nickel and copper). But formerly, the contact fingers in memory sockets were tin plated, and the tin would 'fret' off onto the gold and oxidize, leading to memory errors in lots of PCs at the time (and the increased sale of abrasive ink eraser rubbers). So, DRAM module manufacturers had to start plating their edge contacts with tin also to avoid this.

Although nowadays DRAM modules and sockets are typically both gold plated, so problem avoided, problems can still arise in all kinds of connectors where dissimilar conductors come into contact (e.g. copper against aluminum).

Finally, I don't think everyone considers power conditioners or distribution blocks for audio components as necessarily hoo-doo per se (I certainly don't- had to install a Sola unit once just to keep a studio smoothly powered on spike-ridden mains). Rather, it's the all-too-often-groundless marketing-speak hype touted for some such products (and some 'audiophile grade' leads, etc.) being offered at exorbitant prices that gets pointed to and draws ridicule.