Spyder2
Joined: 22/11/06
Posts: 351
Loc: Cambridgeshire, UK
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I am recording my guitar based band soon. Want to start with us all playing live first. I
would like to get a thick quitar sound so was thinking of connecting two amps and
recording both simultaneously as two tracks to pan wide. My delay pedal has two (stereo)
outputs so I could run one amp off the second output.
Will this help or will I just
end up with phase issues and would be better off double tracking?
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Wild Hope on Last FM Banned link, please do not click on it!
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andy cross
member
Joined: 22/04/03
Posts: 86
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Can't do any harm to record this way, and it's by no means unusual to do so. At worst
you'll have a choice of two different guitar sounds, even if they don't work together.
If you use them together panned L/R, obviously check in mono for phase issues, but
actually you're more likely to run into difficulties in that respect if you use two mics
on one cab, rather than separate amps/cabs.
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Jack Ruston
Joined: 21/12/05
Posts: 2591
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A few thoughts
1. The two amp thing can be super cool.
2. If you
want to have one identical performance made up of two blended sounds you'd be better to
keep the amps together and then overdub a double to thicken the other side. You won't
thicken things stereo wise with two amps split. What will happen is that you'll get a sort
of wide mono with no difference between left and right time wise. It might sound really
cool but it won't be the same as an overdub.
3. If you actually run delays to
another amp it will sound hugely wide and spacious. Just be aware that you will print both
sounds into the drum mics so you won't be able to later move the position of the delays
without having that image still there.
4. As Andy says the phase issues
between two amps can be controlled provided they're a good distance apart and you've close
mic'd. Be aware that a ribbon or other fig 8 might have its rear lobe pointing at the
other amp. Equally if the deep null points at the other amp you'll get good rejection. If
the amps are loud and close together you could get some nasties. Be aware of it.
5. What is more of an issue, is the fact that the amps will spill into all the drum
mics. You will get some phase relationships developing there. Unless you can screen these
elements away from each other you might end up with a mess. But if you can get position
and levels working, the spill will add space.
6. Don't be afraid to abandon
the two amp approach and go back to the already challenging task of recording one in with
a kit.
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Nothing is just nothing
Space is other people trying to be quiet
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The Elf
active member
Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 3112
Loc: Sheffield, UK
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I’ve done this a lot in the past (one amp close miked, one with more distance), though
I’ve come around to the belief that ‘simpler’ nearly always means ‘better’. I wouldn't
usually have both in the mix together, but run one amp in the mix during rhythm parts and
the other for solos. Definitely worth trying though.
I think you can get too
hung up about phase. It is always worth doing the best you can to minimise potential
problems, but a little phase cancellation actually can be a good thing if it hits a sound
you like. I would always do a mono check though.
One nice trick that I
haven’t done for some time is to use a chorus pedal with +/- outputs, such as the Boss
CE-3 (or effect/no effect outputs – e.g. Boss CE-1, EH Clone Theory) to two different
guitar amps. That can give you a very rich sound that can be a bit more organic that
adding chorus afterwards.
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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
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Spyder2
Joined: 22/11/06
Posts: 351
Loc: Cambridgeshire, UK
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Thanks for your thoughts on this. I should be able to get the guitar amps in a separate
room from the drums so don't have to worry about spill to the drums, but will think about
spill between the amps.
I should clarify, I'm going into a studio but we're on a
budget and want to get as fuller sound as possible, as quickly as possible, so want to
avoid getting trapped in the
endless overdub scenario.
My delay has a slight
chorus on one of the delays, so that might work well. Cheers.
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Wild Hope on Last FM Banned link, please do not click on it!
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The Elf
active member
Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 3112
Loc: Sheffield, UK
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I find the 'as full a sound as possible' typically comes from one guitar recorded well. I
didn't used to think that way, but it has dawned on me over time. The less you do to chase
it, the more the 'big' sound comes to you. Concentrate on the details, don't throw more
amps and mics at it.
Just my opinion - others will differ.
Good
luck with it, man.
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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
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EnlightenedHand
Joined: 18/01/08
Posts: 429
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI, United States
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I find that when I'm going for a fuller electric guitar sound that I like to have the
guitarist perform one take with a specific chord voicing and another take voicing the
chords differently (and using different tone settings, as well as a slightly different mic
position on the cab) to either accentuate the higher pitched notes in the chord or the
lower pitched, depending on whichever we started with. It takes a bit of trial and error
or a bit of forethought as to how to arrange the takes so that they compliment each other
and make things fuller. I find that it's usually much more effective at making things
sound fuller and it's usually more interesting to my ears.
One thing that I've
learned from my music instructors years ago is that in many classical pieces of music
there might be repeated passages or phrases immediately right after each other, but in
that case they are almost never quite exactly the same, presumably intentionally. I think
the point is that the subtle variation is usually considered pleasing with repeated
passages rendered close together. I try to take that same reasoning and apply it to
overdubbing. I don't like the idea of clone tracks generally. I always think there needs
to be some variation, which is why I've gotten into the habit of doing what I suggested
above more often with overdubbing guitar parts.
The trouble is doing such
things live off the floor. That's not always possible unless you have multiple
guitarists. What you can do is lay down a foundation track off the floor and overdub
later what you might like to add.
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onesecondglance
Joined: 02/01/08
Posts: 1171
Loc: Reading, UK
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i'm going to echo something that Jack and Liz have both touched upon - you'll be getting a
quite different effect from doubling the part through two amps compared to double tracking
through two amps.
think of a solo violin. if you were to record a take, and
then layer two copies of this take over each other with different EQ settings, you would
still have a solo violin, just with a different tonal quality from the original. now if
you were to overdub instead, you'd have something that still sounds different, but
definitely doesn't sound like a solo violin anymore. repeat that enough times with enough
subtle variation and you could fake your way towards a string section, which is a much
"thicker" sound than the soloist.
so it's worth experimenting before you bring
in the rest of the band to make sure that the two amp thing is the "thick" sound you're
after, and that double tracking won't give you that sound. because as Jack points out,
live recording two amps simultaneously can be pretty difficult, so there's no point going
through that pain unless you're sure it's actually what you're looking for.
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random thoughts about the world, digested into bitesize bloggy chunks
doubledotdash!? collective - hear tunes!
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Spyder2
Joined: 22/11/06
Posts: 351
Loc: Cambridgeshire, UK
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Thanks for the input.
I have double tracked before to good effect, but sometimes too
much. I'm sort of in a halfway place to Elf. Too many tracks can loose clarity.
This
time I'm trying to get it down, quickly, "live" as the first consideration, but would like
to get a bit of thickening from the live take.
I'll give it ago. I can always drop
the second track.
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Wild Hope on Last FM Banned link, please do not click on it!
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Julian_M
Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 333
Loc: North Yorks UK
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Quote Spyder2:
Thanks for the
input.
I can always drop the second track.
Provided you don't get too much spill from the other amp . . .
which leads me to wonder how you might make use of this spill creatively?
Possibly there's an equation that can be applied in terms of distance of the mic's from
the other speaker that would minimise phasing problems . . . or what happens if you use a
third mic placed to capture the sound of both amps?
Just some possibly dumb
ideas . . .
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Mac Pro 2.66 6GB RAM, Logic Pro, Ableton Live, RME FF800, Adam A7's
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Spyder2
Joined: 22/11/06
Posts: 351
Loc: Cambridgeshire, UK
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The power drops as an inverse square law - i think.
The usual rule of thumb is 3:1
distance between the two sources and the mic, and the spill is low. Any more than that and
you are OK. We'll be close micing the cabs, 1" ish with the amps meters apart, and not
stupidly loud.
Hopefully we'll be OK.
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Wild Hope on Last FM Banned link, please do not click on it!
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