Hello, my first post here and Im not sure if this is the right place for my question so sorry  if not and hopefully the mods can move it.  

I'm going to be recording some choir concerts and I was looking online for some visual tips to go with all the things Ive read and I found this video on Youtube.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JaiSGAZfW4

It looks like more mikes than I was expecting to see but I like the sound. I don't know what's going on with so many mikes and why they're where they are. Can anyone help explain what everything is and what's going on. Thanks for your time.

You're right -- there's a shed-load of mics in there! But just because they've been rigged doesn't mean they're being used in what you can hear!

Unfortunately I've not seen any shots that really explain what's going on either. Could be rigged for surround sound... or for other events that happened on stage elsewhere in the concert.

But fundamentally, they seem to be using spaced mics high up, with some close mics lower down, presumably for some soloist focus. it sounds a little over-wide and phasey to me on my PC speakers...

However, the critical thing is that the quality of the sound you are hearing and like is much, much, more to do with the excellent quality of the choir and soloists, and also on the acoustics of the venue, than any specific mic technique.

To be honest, you'd get a fabulous sound from that lot with almost anything!

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

And of course you can read Hugh's very good articles on choir recording! The first one's Here

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Thank you Hugh. I guess it's all a bit of a mystery.

There seems to be some mics hanging on wires over the stage as well as some funny shaped mics on tall stands and several on shorter stands plus others on very tall stands at the back and sides and maybe one in the pulpit that doesn't seem to be pointing at anything so maybe it's a few different setups for things not in the video like you said.

It does sound like a good choir.

I might try and find out who recorded it and see if they'd let me tag along with them one day and see what I can pick up.

Thanks again for your help.

Thank you Bob. I already read all the articles I could find on line including everything on the SOS site.

I was curious how different things are in the video compared to how choir recording is often described as only needing a few mics.

I expect Hugh is right and there's more going on than is shown in the video.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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You're right -- there's a shed-load of mics in there! But just because they've been rigged doesn't mean they're being used in what you can hear!

Unfortunately I've not seen any shots that really explain what's going on either. Could be rigged for surround sound... or for other events that happened on stage elsewhere in the concert.

But fundamentally, they seem to be using spaced mics high up, with some close mics lower down, presumably for some soloist focus. it sounds a little over-wide and phasey to me on my PC speakers...

However, the critical thing is that the quality of the sound you are hearing and like is much, much, more to do with the excellent quality of the choir and soloists, and also on the acoustics of the venue, than any specific mic technique.

To be honest, you'd get a fabulous sound from that lot with almost anything!

hugh

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Nice to hear someone admit that its down to the performers!! On the other hand I thought the sound a bit echoey - covering a multidude of sins, maybe ...?

Somebody forgot to turn the lights on as well ...

Perhaps I'd better retire gracefully at this point. (Before you all scream at me, I only listened to the first piece).

Quote Ariosto:

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Nice to hear someone admit that its down to the performers!!

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Admit? It's ALWAYS about the performers. Without a quality performance the rest is just t**d polishing!

In order of importance it's:

1. Good music
2. Good performance
3. Good acoustic environment

Then...

4. Good mic placement
5. Good mics
6. Good mix

Once all of that has been optimised we can start thinking about the mic preamps, converters, analogue or digital processing and so on... But they will make far less difference and are of much less importance than the first three, or even the second three!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote Ariosto:

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Nice to hear someone admit that its down to the performers!!

---

Admit? It's ALWAYS about the performers. Without a quality performance the rest is just t**d polishing!

In order of importance it's:

1. Good music
2. Good performance
3. Good acoustic environment

Then...

4. Good mic placement
5. Good mics
6. Good mix

Once all of that has been optimised we can start thinking about the mic preamps, converters, analogue or digital processing and so on... But they will make far less difference and are of much less importance than the first three, or even the second three!

Hugh

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Agreed. But not everyone in recording studios thinks like that, unfortunately.

Well I sent some emails and someone replied that they don't know anything about the technical side of things but would pass my questions and contact details to the person who recorded the concert and leave it to them to get back to me if they have time.

I'll post back if I find out anything interesting but I guess I'm not holding my breath.

Hello again. I said I would post back if I heard anything more about this so here I am.

I was surprised when the guy who did the recording got back to me and answered all my questions. He confirmed what Hugh suggested about there being more going on than appears in the video. He said that according to his notes it was a 20 track recording which used 18 mikes and two channels of replay from a laptop.   I got his permission to post part of his reply here.

"The main balance consists of varying combinations of an MS pair, Jecklin disc and two pairs of spaced omnis, the exact proportions changing according to programme/layouts and what other mics were in use. Of these, all but one pair of omnis are slung.

There's a near-coincident pair on the piano which was positioned behind the  choir on extreme stage right and sounded too dull and muffled without a spot mic. This became a stereo spot when it was found that one piece was a setting for solo soprano and piano, both positioned stage right. It was felt that having everything coming out of the left speaker on a the radio broadcast would be odd without the visuals to explain it so we decided to allow for a more conventional image on that piece and mics were added to make that possible. There's also a solo soprano mic used only in that piece.

One pair of mics is used only in a piece in which the choir is split between the galleries. Unfortunately these had to be stand mounted as the use of the galeries was added quite late in the day and there wasn't time to hang anything.   The other mics are dotted around for solos, layout variations and a narrator.

The computer feeds were for a piece not on the YouTube video which used solo soprano, choir, narrator, and semi-improvised/live electronics.

There was also a pair of ambience/audience mics hung out in the chapel which ended up being dropped altogether from the final balance as the venue suffers rather badly from traffic noise and tube train rumble and, even though they did nice things in the mix, their pickup of ambient noise was too problematic, especially in the quiet sections."

To answer my questions about equipment he sent me the list of mikes and other stuff he used for the recording so I could see what he used but it was all a bit out of my price range. However he also said

"Don't get hung up on details of the equipment used on any recording. The biggest factors in recording anything like this are the performers, the room, the programme, and the mic techniques/mic positions. Then the mics and how they're balanced. With performers of that quality, the room and equipment become less relevant than they would be with lesser performers as there's not really any need to hide anything or compensate for performance problems. Using just a few mics on that concert would've sounded fine most of the time; using more just allowed me to make small changes to optimize things for different stage setups and programme. Lesser performers, rooms, or equipment just reduce your options/add complexities to work around and make your job harder."  

I've done the first of the concerts I had to record and it came out really well but mainly because having already answered all my questions the person who engineered the Eric Whitacre recording offered to show up and help me set up for which I was really thankul. He explained loads of things I never would have thought of and saved me from making some newbie mistakes. I was surprised how little importance he put on equipment and how he got my humble setup to sound more than I thought possible and his advice will save me a fortune on GAS.  The choir were over the moon with the recording and definitely want me to do the rest of their concerts. The next one is in a couple of weeks and I'm looking forward to it. If it's any good I might see if the choir will let me post a bit here for comments.

glad it all worked out, and nice that your mentor and I sing from the same hymn sheet!

H

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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In order of importance it's:

1. Good music
2. Good performance
3. Good acoustic environment

Then...

4. Good mic placement
5. Good mics
6. Good mix


Hugh

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Now there's a wallchart.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

H

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound