Hello. I went to do some outdoor recording only to find my MiniDisc player has packed in. My brother gave me his, but that hasn't got a 'mic in', only a 'line-in'.

I want to record quite low levels (including distant sounds) with MM-BSM-8 in-ear binaural mics. These have a frequency response of typically +/-2dB, requiring a bias voltage of between 1.5 to 10 volts D.C.at the microphone input jack.

I do have an AA 1.5V battery box with a mini mic socket from another pair of stereo mics, so I'm wondering if I can use that.

Wouldn't I get better results (for low SPL recording) with a higher voltage, like 9V? If so, is it possible/worth it to adapt the battery box for a higher voltage battery?

P.S. I might buy a digital recorder, but I'm not sure how much I'll get to use it in the near future, and I think it's always better to wait as long as possible. I've had good results with MiniDisc recording before, and this one is 'as new' with a digital output to PC too.

Cheers

What is the model number of the MD recorder? It seems strange that a portable recorder would only have line inputs.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Yes, some do. I suppose it was for those who just wanted to record off radio/CDs. I do remember having to find a model with a mic input at the time I bought mine (that packed in).

I don't have it (the working one) with me but I think it's the SONY MZ-N520. It only has a stereo Line-In (mini-jack) and Optical (mini-jack).

Cheers

Actually it's a (Net MD) SONY MZ-NF610 TYPE-S and only has a mini jack line-in, which is also the Optical connection too.

It has a direct USB connection to link to a PC, but the bizarre thing is, the SonicStage software doesn't allow you transfer files FROM the MiniDisc unless they were transferred TO the MiniDisc using SonicStage! This is because of copyright infringement.

That means I can't even transfer my own recordings!

I'll try downloading the latest version, but just in case, is there any other software that I could use to transfer from the MD player digitally (i.e. directly without waiting for the whole track to finish)?

Thanks

It's been years since I last used Minidisc, but if memory serves me right the last versions of Sonic Stage removed the restrictions around transferring recordings off the player, so I should definitely try updating Sonic Stage to the latest version.

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

According to MMAudio, you should be able to use 9v to improve the mic's response - but you'd need to establish which parts of the mini-jack to make V+ and Ground. (Or you could pay $69 for their box to hold a battery!!!!). But if you've got some basic electronics skills, I'd recommend building yourself a simple mic preamp to bring the output up to line-in levels. I've used this circuit here: http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Circuits/Audio/ecmmic.html , which just needs a couple of transistors and handful of resistors and capacitors with a home-built electret mic with great success into the line-in of a Zoom H2 rather than using the mic-in (of course you'd need two parallel circuits for a stereo mic). Powered from a 9v battery, it will all fit into a small case for a total cost of less than £10.

Peter

Hi Josif
SonicStage was ratted ‘one of the worst piece of software that ever existed’...

Quote ConcertinaChap:

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It's been years since I last used Minidisc, but if memory serves me right the last versions of Sonic Stage removed the restrictions around transferring recordings off the player, so I should definitely try updating Sonic Stage to the latest version.

CC

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I downloaded the new version, but it still has the same restrictions! It must have been a contractual thing if they're still imposing it. I can't believe nobody has found a way round this. There are still plenty of people who use minidiscs for binaural recording.

Quote peterdeltablues:

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According to MMAudio, you should be able to use 9v to improve the mic's response - but you'd need to establish which parts of the mini-jack to make V+ and Ground. (Or you could pay $69 for their box to hold a battery!!!!). But if you've got some basic electronics skills, I'd recommend building yourself a simple mic preamp to bring the output up to line-in levels. I've used this circuit here: http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Circuits/Audio/ecmmic.html , which just needs a couple of transistors and handful of resistors and capacitors with a home-built electret mic with great success into the line-in of a Zoom H2 rather than using the mic-in (of course you'd need two parallel circuits for a stereo mic). Powered from a 9v battery, it will all fit into a small case for a total cost of less than £10.

Peter

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I wish I did have electronic skills but I don't even know the basics. I can't seem to get a good level through the line in with a 1.5V battery box. Might be okay for a rock concert, but not for capturing distant sounds outdoors I suspect.

I don't get why my old Sharp MD had sufficient volume when it too only had a 1.5V battery. I would've thought it'd be better to have a battery box to extend the battery life in the MD. A battery module for my MM-BSM-8 binaural mics would cost more than the mics! But that would provide better results I suppose because they provide 9V.

Do modern digital recorders (Zoom, etc) offer higher plug-in power then? If so, I'd rather put the money towards one of them.

Thanks

You won't get sufficient volume if you don't have a mic input. To be honest, given the amount of effort involved in adding a mic input, I would probably probably suggest that you look at one of the budget solid state recorders around at the moment. That way you won't have ATRAC compression mangling the sound either.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Josif A. Soterίou:

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I downloaded the new version, but it still has the same restrictions! It must have been a contractual thing if they're still imposing it. I can't believe nobody has found a way round this. There are still plenty of people who use minidiscs for binaural recording.

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If that's so then it's a bummer. Best place for advice is the Minidisc Community Portal.

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Thanks for the posts and links.

I'm tempted to go for a Zoom H4N, but it looks like I'm still going to have problems with voltage supply to my binaural mics. These require 1.5-9V, but obviously the Zoom H4N offers 48V.

Quote Josif A. Soterίou:

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Thanks for the posts and links.

I'm tempted to go for a Zoom H4N, but it looks like I'm still going to have problems with voltage supply to my binaural mics. These require 1.5-9V, but obviously the Zoom H4N offers 48V.

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Then look for a recorder with a 3.5mm stereo mic input. These usually have 5v dc available at the socket and sometimes there's a menu function to switch on/off. Certainly my Zoom H2 had this facility.

Quote Josif A. Soterίou:

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Actually it's a (Net MD) SONY MZ-NF610 TYPE-S and only has a mini jack line-in, which is also the Optical connection too.

It has a direct USB connection to link to a PC, but the bizarre thing is, the SonicStage software doesn't allow you transfer files FROM the MiniDisc unless they were transferred TO the MiniDisc using SonicStage! This is because of copyright infringement.

That means I can't even transfer my own recordings!

I'll try downloading the latest version, but just in case, is there any other software that I could use to transfer from the MD player digitally (i.e. directly without waiting for the whole track to finish)?

Thanks

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NetMD units can't actually transfer data back from the player, it's a one-way data line. When you "transfer" an album back, what it does is delete the files, and decrease the count of devices the music is on. ONly the Hi-MD units have bi-directional data transfer. I have the last of the Hi-MDs, and it is excellent for recording - you can record 1h15 of PCM on the 1Gb discs. I recently used it for a mixing desk recording of a gig we did.

Quote:

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When you "transfer" an album back, what it does is delete the files, and decrease the count of devices the music is on.

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I did notice the tracks on the MD dissappearing when I tried to copy them to my PC, but then a message appeared saying it had been uploaded(?) on another machine so it wasn't allowed. Weird.

Anyway, my old MD (with the mic socket) has suddenly decided to work! Sort of. It has trouble reading the battery level. I'm not sure if there's a small rechargeable battery inside the machine that needs charging up. Even the mains connector didn't work the other day. Anyway, I've learned a lot more since then, so perhaps it's not going to be the best recording method anyway.

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That way you won't have ATRAC compression mangling the sound either.

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Strange. I remember at the time people raving about this Sony compression. Is it really "mangling the sound" so much? This report has a strange conclusion:

"Through a combination of various techniques including psychoacoustics, subband coding and transform coding, ATRAC succeeds in coding digital audio with virtually no perceptual degradation in sound quality. Listening tests indicate that the difference between ATRAC sound and the original source is not perceptually annoying nor does it reduce the sound quality."

I don't get the "...is not perceptually annoying nor does it reduce the sound quality". The only thing I'd find perceptually annoying is the reduction of sound quality. How else would it be 'perceptually annoying'?

Thanks

If you're planning to use your recordings just for experimentation and for your own amusement then keep trying to get something with the minidisc.

But however good the data compression is with ATRAC, it's still there... taking elements out of the recording so that tracks of some length will fit on the discs. For casual and uncritical listening minidiscs are OK, but even with direct-digital transfers I could hear some degradation of the sound when wearing moderately-good headphones. If you then add in to the equation the issues caused by average (or less than average) microphones and the unknown quality of mic-preamps then you really are in "for fun" territory.

Whilst I use a small portable handheld digital recorder for voice work, I still record WAVs at 44.1KHz and 16-bit. For serious location wildlife recording I use a bigger digital recorder with decent preamps, XLR inputs, phantom power and microphones costing more than the recorder did!

Quote Josif A. Soterίou:

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Strange. I remember at the time people raving about this Sony compression. Is it really "mangling the sound" so much?

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Being a drummer, I notice how it cuts cymbal decays short. I thought I was listening to an analogue tape with a dropout the first time I heard it.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

I haven't really used it that much because I tended to use my laptop recording away (but indoors). For now, I really just wanted to record some outdoor binaural sounds (instruments) as a real frame of reference in the hope that I can learn to synthesize this binaural effect (perhaps involving spatializing software) in the studio.

Thanks

Quote Josif A. Soterίou:

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I don't get the "...is not perceptually annoying nor does it reduce the sound quality". The only thing I'd find perceptually annoying is the reduction of sound quality. How else would it be 'perceptually annoying'?

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They are using the term 'perceptual' in the technical sense -- ATRAC is a 'perceptual codec' (as opposed to a 'predictive codec'). The idea is to only throw away parts of the original audio signal which the designers believe the average human listener can't perceive at the same time that everything else in the original recording is going on.

As it goes, the final release versions of ATRAC were pretty good, but it is also a very complicated codec -- much more so than MP3 -- and it actually trampled over patents held by Dolby and used in its AC3 Dolby Digital codec. AS a result, Sony ended up paying a lot of money to Dolby retrospectively!

Like all perceptual codecs, ATRAC tends to struggle most when the audio signal gets more complicated, and especially when it is noise-like and relaticely low level. As a result, recording ambient sounds out of doors might well reveal its flaws rather more easily than when copying commercial music!

Moreover, any post-production is likely to reveal those flaws more easily too. So I would strongly advise using a linear recording system in preference to a data reduced one when capturing complex natural sound sources.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks for that! If my MD recorder hadn't packed in, I'd probably be on my computer now wondering why it all sounds a bit crappy and shouting at the dummy head (or the one in the mirror).

I'm really considering a Zoom 4hn once I'm in a more patient mood to look for a bargain. I really like the idea of recording two stereo mics at once too.

Cheers

Looks like you can even bypass the internal mics on the 4HN too! I just wonder what kind of phantom power is provided to the stereo minijack at the back (which bypasses the internal mics). I think there's a choice of 24V and 48V for the XLRs, but it'd be ideal if the minijack offered 9V, though I suspect it'll be unbalanced.

Errmmm... like I said before...:

Quote Mike Stranks:

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Quote Josif A. Soterίou:

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Thanks for the posts and links.

I'm tempted to go for a Zoom H4N, but it looks like I'm still going to have problems with voltage supply to my binaural mics. These require 1.5-9V, but obviously the Zoom H4N offers 48V.

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Then look for a recorder with a 3.5mm stereo mic input. These usually have 5v dc available at the socket and sometimes there's a menu function to switch on/off. Certainly my Zoom H2 had this facility.

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... the H4n has just such a powered socket... or so my Google search tells me.

According to this article, "The unit also has a stereo minijack microphone socket... which can also provide plug in power (controlled via the menu)."

If that's the case, I'm definitely getting one. The only thing is, I'd like to use the internal mic's at the same time as my binaural ones. They should've made it so that it cut off the channels not in use really.

Always a catch.

Thanks