Hey,

I was wondering what are some good ways of getting your music heard, maybe get some kind of small deal, without doing gigs?

I don't really want to go gigs, partly because they terrify me and partly because I don't think my music works with just a guitar and I don't want to start a band.

Is there any alternative to gigging?

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www.myspace.com/jazzzombies

What sort of small deal ?
as in somebody giving you money ?
How much money ?
How many of your units are they likely to sell ?
How many of your units have you sold ?

Do you have a following ?
Is there a buzz around you ?
- If not gigging - how are you creating the buzz ?
How are you building your following and preparing your market place ?

What exactly is it - that you are selling ?
Where do you fit into the market place ?

On a cursory listen to 'sexual harassment panda' - it seems you are trying to re create the sound of a band .. so why don't you want to form a band ? - In fact, from an all be it cursory listen, it does sound like something which would greatly benefit from the collaborative process of a band .. (although I only skimmed one track)

As for ways to get heard .. well .. there are many ..

Myspaz
Soundcloud
Bandcamp
Facebook
Twtr
Reverb Nation
etc
etc
&
etc

As I'm sure you & everyone else knows.

Beyond that, if your music is exceptional or appeals enough to the right DJ to get on playlists - of course there are more traditional broadcast / radio routes.

Getting heard is not the difficult bit - convincing me that if I put money into you, I will see a suitable return - that's the thing.

How will you do that ?

Edited by blue manga (07/08/12 12:49 PM)

Quote mrthingy:

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Hey,

I was wondering what are some good ways of getting your music heard, maybe get some kind of small deal, without doing gigs?

I don't really want to go gigs, partly because they terrify me and partly because I don't think my music works with just a guitar and I don't want to start a band.

Is there any alternative to gigging?

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No alternative to getting off your arse, I'm afraid.

I've been curious about this myself recently...

Does anyone know roughly how much it costs to hire a plugger, for the sort of stuff played on BBC Radio 2 and Magic FM daytime, ie accessible 'mainstream' tunes?

Quote Radio 2 Website:

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I’m a musician - how can I get my music heard on Radio 2?

Our head of music at Radio 2 is Jeff Smith, he chairs the weekly playlist meeting so if you’d like to submit a CD for him to listen to you can post them to him at the following address:

Radio 2,
BBC Western House,
99 Great Portland Street,
London W1W 7NY

Alternately, if you think your music will appeal to a particular presenter you can send CDs marked for their attention to the above address and they will get them. Or, if your music is available online you can also send emails to individual presenters with the weblink. Email addresses for individual programmes can be found via the "Contact Us" link on the programme's web pages. For a full list of programmes & links to their pages visit our Shows A-Z page.

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Dunno about pluggers, I'd have thought you'd need to send an exceptional CD to the relevant producer. Eg:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/dermot-oleary/contact/

It would probably help if you'd built up a fanbase by gigging though.

Here's an example of a company offering radio plugging...

http://www.matchboxrecordings.co.uk/

I'm slightly sceptical, but would be happy to be convinced otherwise.

Quote mrthingy:

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Is there any alternative to gigging?

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Fortunately, no.

Quote Gone To Lunch:

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I've been curious about this myself recently...

Does anyone know roughly how much it costs to hire a plugger, for the sort of stuff played on BBC Radio 2 and Magic FM daytime, ie accessible 'mainstream' tunes?

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I had a client a while back in this situation ... in his 40's, settled family life, business, good standard of living etc ... no interest in slogging it out in the live arena apart from album launches and radio sessions. He hired a well respected radio plugger and got repeat airplay and a live session on radio 2, plus some nice slots on regional radio. Cost was in excess of £2k, but that was five years ago. My experience of radio is you might get this kind of blip with a decent plugger who likes the material, but for wider uptake they want to see that something is coming at them from multiple angles - press, tours, festivals, blogosphere.

On the other hand, I sent off a few promo CD's of my brother's latest release:

Sun Behind The Storm

.... it was really just something for the fans - and yet it got airplay on the radio 1 nations, 6 Music, and a multiple plays across a range of shows on Radio Scotland with some great comments from presenters, and won him a week away in a countryside mansion on the Burnsong songwriters residency ... so equally you can put in almost no effort, but if something gets picked up word can spread. And all this with no press campaign, launch or tour!

It does help if the material is good :-)
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.. & of course, having a strong network.

Not just of phone numbers and names - but relationships

I wouldn't at all say - you can't press ahead without gigging, if you really don't want to.
But then you have to decide what it is you want to achieve - how that becomes a product that people can sell & people can buy into.

In this day and age - music in itself, is very rarely a consumer product.
- so what are you selling ?

Ultimately, I do believe - the only strategy you need is to be THE BEST. If you are a genius, a true genius - you can do what you do, however you do.. But that is less that 1% of musical wannabes.
And often times, anyway - genius comes from ALOT of very hard work and dedication.. years of honing, working, trying, putting your neck on the line, failing, growing, developing etc ..

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Quote mrthingy:

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Is there any alternative to gigging?

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Fortunately, no.

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So how do you go on if you want to write for film/TV?

One bit of advice to the original poster, sieze every opportunity that comes your way. I had a serious good offer, on the understanding that I put in a bit of work to tidy up some tracks to pass on to a proper producer. I was busy at the time and thought there's time for that, if my music is good enough he can wait a bit - he didn't!

I suppose we all have the fisherman type stories of the one that got away!

I think it is important to stay true to your style, one might get tempted to think, oh this kind of music seems to be selling well, I'll have a pop at that. I don't think that approach works as I would imagine you come across as someone trying to chase the dollar rather than someone with belief in their music and hones it to perfection. Additionally of course, there ain't no shortcuts to success, no matter how meagre that success

But anyway, gigging's fun, most the time, it's character building that's for sure

There will always be ones that get away.

The point is making hundreds of opportunities for yourself - so the ones that get away are not so significant.

Certainly if I'd have made different choices early on in my career.. it would have meant much less hard work later on ..

But most ways, for most of us the 99% perspiration rule does have some significance .. although of course, for artists it's different, to have marketable product you do also need that level of inspiration on a much more permanent basis, as well as being able to really put the elbow grease in.

Tricky....

My material I would say is quite 'commercial' but would be very expensive live, multiple guitars, percussion, orchestra, choir etc...

Not something I could realistically deliver at the open mic nite at the Dog and Duck in East Bumfuck on a Tuesday evening, even if it is overflowing with A&R and scouts...

Quote Gone To Lunch:

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Tricky....

My material I would say is quite 'commercial' but would be very expensive live, multiple guitars, percussion, orchestra, choir etc...

Not something I could realistically deliver at the open mic nite at the Dog and Duck in East Bumfuck on a Tuesday evening, even if it is overflowing with A&R and scouts...

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But surely a good song is a good song.. Whether played on two acoustics or with a symphony orchestra?

Quote OneWorld:

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So how do you go on if you want to write for film/TV?

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Still the same - might not be "gigs" but you have to be out there, networking and generally working your buns off!! If you're not confident in performance situations then you're not likely to be confident in the malarkey that is getting composition gigs.

Quote:

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fortunately no

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uhm, that's not quite true. There are a few examples of bands selling albums while not touring in support of them. Sure gigging is the fastest way to build an audience in some countries, but not everywhere. If gigging is not an option there are a number of internet radio stations that will stream your songs for a few cents... Jango is just one example.
You can grow an audience on youtube, facebook (and thousands of other social sites)... you can pay for an adv campaign on facebook... you can ask all your followers on twitter to buy your songs on itunes (if you can convince them). Or you can send demo copies of your songs all over the world, to every music label, waiting for someone to call you back.

As you can see, there are quite a lot of alternatives to gigging

Leonardo

Edited by Settemeno (07/08/12 10:41 PM)

Quote _ Six _:

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Quote Gone To Lunch:

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Tricky....

My material I would say is quite 'commercial' but would be very expensive live, multiple guitars, percussion, orchestra, choir etc...

Not something I could realistically deliver at the open mic nite at the Dog and Duck in East Bumfuck on a Tuesday evening, even if it is overflowing with A&R and scouts...

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But surely a good song is a good song.. Whether played on two acoustics or with a symphony orchestra?

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maybe, maybe not....and I don't play guitar, and I don't sing... and they are mostly not guitar sort of songs....and I am male and we have used very divergent female session singers for each track...so logistically well-nigh impossible

Quote _ Six _:

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Quote Gone To Lunch:

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Tricky....

My material I would say is quite 'commercial' but would be very expensive live, multiple guitars, percussion, orchestra, choir etc...

Not something I could realistically deliver at the open mic nite at the Dog and Duck in East Bumfuck on a Tuesday evening, even if it is overflowing with A&R and scouts...

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But surely a good song is a good song.. Whether played on two acoustics or with a symphony orchestra?

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Try playing something by the KLF on an acoustic guitar and you'll see what's wrong with that!

I found out this morning that Ray Lynch's "Deep Breakfast" somehow went platinum in 1984 with no gigs or videos... I doubt that's useful, but I was reminded of this thread!

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

It's an odd paradox that in this age of communication and virtual everything, every industry expert you talk to says that you have no chance if you don't go out and play live.

I'm not saying they're wrong, i'm just saying it's odd.

Quote ow:

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It's an odd paradox that in this age of communication and virtual everything, every industry expert you talk to says that you have no chance if you don't go out and play live.

I'm not saying they're wrong, i'm just saying it's odd.

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haha! yeah.

I suppose it's about getting round the human condition.

Quote ow:

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It's an odd paradox that in this age of communication and virtual everything, every industry expert you talk to says that you have no chance if you don't go out and play live.

I'm not saying they're wrong, i'm just saying it's odd.

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Depends what sort of music you're selling. Plenty of product goes straight from studio to media, produced by someone you've never heard of.

Quote narcoman:

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Quote OneWorld:

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So how do you go on if you want to write for film/TV?

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If you're not confident in performance situations then you're not likely to be confident in the malarkey that is getting composition gigs.

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thats interesting to know as Ive done alot of work with bands but now Im trying to get in on whole media thing/computer games/film music think myself (recenly moved from finland to here to have increased my chance) and have just started to networking as a means of getting into it.theres good money if you can get in on it.in finland with the sucess of the scandinavian cop dramas and resultant computer games the killing and the bridge there is much interest and now everyone wants to write for films and games.theres is alot more opportunity here now though as in scandinavian countries the market is completely exausted

maybe useful to note down the steps I have taken so far is:

subscribing to taxi.got some good leads so far not earnt nothing yet though

promoting website via mandy.com.free to list on there and used by virtually all top industry producers/directors

linkedin - great way of joining pr industry discussions on media music/tv music/film music and games

have registred and uploaed to starnow.co.uk talent directory.again its free and really exposes your profile to alot of influential people.mainly acting but you can get some good music jobs through it

also there is some great info out there on the internet like

http://www.beatportal.com/feed/item/how-to-get-music-in-video-games/ < br />
http://www.wikihow.com/Write-Movie,-Music,-and-Video-Game-Reviews

there are alot of courses about but I would maybe advise against this first as if you read on here there is alot of doubt within pro community on here and mus radar and vi control etcetra as to the actual effectiveness of these courses

one final thing.I would suggest deciding exactly which direction is best.games or tv?or films?choose one as not many people but the very best are able to do all three so make this correct choice right at the start!

good luck

lappi

Quote narcoman:

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Quote OneWorld:

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So how do you go on if you want to write for film/TV?

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If you're not confident in performance situations then you're not likely to be confident in the malarkey that is getting composition gigs.

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Nothing to do with confidence, it's about logistics, if the music you write involves orchestral percussion, string sections et al, well all sampled, though how we would love to have a full symphonic orchestra at our behest, but how do you fit that lot into the back of a Ford Fiesta, confidence wouldn't stop me, lack of space would

Quote OneWorld:

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Quote narcoman:

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Quote OneWorld:

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So how do you go on if you want to write for film/TV?

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If you're not confident in performance situations then you're not likely to be confident in the malarkey that is getting composition gigs.

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Nothing to do with confidence, it's about logistics, if the music you write involves orchestral percussion, string sections et al, well all sampled, though how we would love to have a full symphonic orchestra at our behest, but how do you fit that lot into the back of a Ford Fiesta, confidence wouldn't stop me, lack of space would

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I think he was saying being confident when having a meet.its like meeting a girl on a blind date if she suspects you are terrified chances are she will make excuse and run a mile.same with music you have to be really confident when doing the deals.making the music well you dont have to be that confident at these days everyone composes in their bedrom using sample cds.how can you use a sample cd or protools unconfidently!! if you get unconfident in those situations yeah well for sure you are in the wrong jobs and should not even be on here

I'm sure there are many examples of acts skipping the toilet circuit and making it straight to media, all comes down to networking, contacts, promo budget, tenacity and talent. I'm pretty sure if someone with reasonable talent won the lottery they could 'buy' their way into the industry and at least have a stab at making a career of it. Buying services essentially buys contacts and rubbing shoulders with insiders.

Not everyone can tick all the boxes, in which case a little luck may be required in getting the support of a great management who can do all the things that a 'shy genius' might not be confident with.

You have to be a hustler if you want to get on....be it in music/art or any other business.

Why have we all heard of unmade beds and sharks in tanks, is it because they are great works of art? Perhaps...or is it because of promotion/media and the ability of those artists to network/persuade and talk a good game?

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Quote GlynB:

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I'm sure there are many examples of acts skipping the toilet circuit and making it straight to media,

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That's it, really. Are you aiming to be an "act", or to make and sell music?

Quote lappi oltermanni:

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Quote OneWorld:

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Quote narcoman:

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Quote OneWorld:

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So how do you go on if you want to write for film/TV?

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If you're not confident in performance situations then you're not likely to be confident in the malarkey that is getting composition gigs.

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Nothing to do with confidence, it's about logistics, if the music you write involves orchestral percussion, string sections et al, well all sampled, though how we would love to have a full symphonic orchestra at our behest, but how do you fit that lot into the back of a Ford Fiesta, confidence wouldn't stop me, lack of space would

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I think he was saying being confident when having a meet.its like meeting a girl on a blind date if she suspects you are terrified chances are she will make excuse and run a mile.same with music you have to be really confident when doing the deals.making the music well you dont have to be that confident at these days everyone composes in their bedrom using sample cds.how can you use a sample cd or protools unconfidently!! if you get unconfident in those situations yeah well for sure you are in the wrong jobs and should not even be on here

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Please read the contents of my post carefully and you'll save yourself a load of typing!

Quote OneWorld:

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Quote lappi oltermanni:

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Quote OneWorld:

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Quote narcoman:

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Quote OneWorld:

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So how do you go on if you want to write for film/TV?

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If you're not confident in performance situations then you're not likely to be confident in the malarkey that is getting composition gigs.

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Nothing to do with confidence, it's about logistics, if the music you write involves orchestral percussion, string sections et al, well all sampled, though how we would love to have a full symphonic orchestra at our behest, but how do you fit that lot into the back of a Ford Fiesta, confidence wouldn't stop me, lack of space would

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I think he was saying being confident when having a meet.its like meeting a girl on a blind date if she suspects you are terrified chances are she will make excuse and run a mile.same with music you have to be really confident when doing the deals.making the music well you dont have to be that confident at these days everyone composes in their bedrom using sample cds.how can you use a sample cd or protools unconfidently!! if you get unconfident in those situations yeah well for sure you are in the wrong jobs and should not even be on here

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Please read the contents of my post carefully and you'll save yourself a load of typing!

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haha yes but I think we both agreed with each of other didn't we?!but then again after thinking about it,that a no problem unless you get interviews for a job as a games music dept.designer in house at sony or disney.then obviously you will need confidence to get the job would you not??(and lots of it too!)so in that sit yes confidence is a very big issue.obviously though if you are just writing tv or film music at home confidence does not matter at all!

remember that in many ways an job interview is much like being a performer playing a performance!

exactly!!
Writing for orchestra?

Best thing to do is to try and persuade some half decent city orchestra to PERFORM it and you record. Standing out in that crowd is even harder!!

Quote narcoman:

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exactly!!
Writing for orchestra?

Best thing to do is to try and persuade some half decent city orchestra to PERFORM it and you record. Standing out in that crowd is even harder!!

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but that is crazy!you may as well use samples from a cd or the best plugins because you can get a better sound than just an average orchestra.maybe you have not heard an average orchestra but I have and really they are way less better than software!ok if you are going to use the city philarmionic great but unless you have a few thousand then I don't think so somehow! !

Quote narcoman:

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exactly!!
Writing for orchestra?

Best thing to do is to try and persuade some half decent city orchestra to PERFORM it and you record. Standing out in that crowd is even harder!!

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Actually, if you're skilled in that field, it's probably easier to get a commission for an orchestral work (even better if it uses a big childrens' choir too) than to get a recording contract. It's getting the SECOND performance that's hard :-)

Quote lappi oltermanni:

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Quote narcoman:

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exactly!!
Writing for orchestra?

Best thing to do is to try and persuade some half decent city orchestra to PERFORM it and you record. Standing out in that crowd is even harder!!

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but that is crazy!you may as well use samples from a cd or the best plugins because you can get a better sound than just an average orchestra.maybe you have not heard an average orchestra but I have and really they are way less better than software!ok if you are going to use the city philarmionic great but unless you have a few thousand then I don't think so somehow! !

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1. You are entirely missing the point.
2. I'm not talking school orchestra I'm talking city phils. They will work with people.


To get ahead it his business you need to look outside of samples. As outlined above, get a comission or work with one of the city orchestra ( I can assure you the Liverpool phil is fekking good and will work with composers. bBirmingham is good too. quite a few good orchestras in Oxford. ).

If you use software it shows no ambition, no flair for the original and no desire to better what else is out there. Trust me, I get sent track after track of sample based score.... They all sound the same and they're all very very average. I'd rather hear a dodgy bit of pitch with some human performance than the general dross it sample land!! Stand out.... Work with musicians. You get noticed.

he he

Liverpool Phil yeah

CBSO yeah

Oxford..er, yeah remind me...

Quote johnny artpants:

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he he

Liverpool Phil yeah

CBSO yeah

Oxford..er, yeah remind me...

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We've got two great private orchestras with many members of the London session scene. We've also got the city of oxford orchestra which are good. Many of the set ups in Ox uni are not bad too. Then there are some. Of the best quartets and sextets n the country as well as two fabulous choral setups focussing on traditional and medieval composition.

Ok Narcoman - but in fairness, CBSO and Lpool. Phil are world class outfits, and COOO is not.

But, re-samples, I totally agree - real instruments make you stand out. However, I would say, hiring a few top class session players is a better bet for gaining good recordings than a mediocre ensemble, which is good for writing experience, but won't sound any good on a showreel.

Just my 2p.

Quote johnny artpants:

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Ok Narcoman - but in fairness, CBSO and Lpool. Phil are world class outfits, and COOO is not.

But, re-samples, I totally agree - real instruments make you stand out. However, I would say, hiring a few top class session players is a better bet for gaining good recordings than a mediocre ensemble, which is good for writing experience, but won't sound any good on a showreel.

Just my 2p.

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Totally .

But the point was you can talk to the Liv phil or CBSO and they will entertain serious contenders. You can't do that with the LSO etc or a session orchestra.

I've recorded the COOO for mid budget stuff before and they sounded great, certainly better than Bratislava etc etc which get plenty of outings in film, tv and games. They were a whole league better and the Sheldonian sounded far better than the Brat studio. .

I've also employed local sextets for many projects ( same as you're saying with top session players... Well many of londons finest live in Oxford!!).
The gist of my point was, get out there and ask people!

Another good source for classical players is a good local music college - they have some fantastic players, tomorrow's top players with many of the students aiming for a career as world class soloists.

Obviously, not some dodgy music college that was once a mediocre polytechnic but the likes of the Royal College Of Music, etc.. Young, enthusiastic players who would jump at the opportunity and who would welcome the experience (and the session fee).

There are also youth orchestras. I am not talking about some school orchestra (although I have heard many good ones - depends on the school, its music department, etc.) but something like the National Youth Orchestra. Again, tomorrow's top players with barely a cigarette paper between them and a pro orchestra as anyone who has seen them will testify. Again, young and enthusiastic and the session fee would be most helpful for their much needed funding as they operate on the bone of their arse.

Regarding the use of samples, they may be good enough for putting a demo together but they cannot compete with a real orchestra and are (to me) rarely convincing unless the arrangement is extremely simple (i.e block chords, drones, etc.). Samples can also be useful to augment a smaller, real orchestra in small doses.

Not just that but putting together a convincing orchestral track with samples can be very time consuming - and still sound fake. A real and half decent orchestra could probably bang it out (and better) in a few hours, a few takes.

British orchestras/players are particularly good at this. Such is the underfunded nature of orchestras in this country, they invariably have very little time to learn pieces and rehearse so they are sh!t hot sight readers - they have to be. If you've never seen a group of shabby individuals walking into a studio, be handed the manuscript, have a run through and then record it in a few takes, it's something I recommend to everybody - it is (to use that much abused Amercanism) awesome!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote johnny artpants:

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But, re-samples, I totally agree - real instruments make you stand out.

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I wouldn't say that's 100% so..

There's a number of music libraries at the moment all running off to Eastern Europe to record orchestras on the cheap .. I keep hearing what they come back with - and it sounds more like an army of cats recorded in a biscuit tin.

If I compare that to some things I have heard from orchestral composers - who have a really good rig (in some cases, proprietary tools of their own as well) - the results are far superior..

Of course they would ideally like the budget for Air sessions as well .. or whatever .. but to say n a blanket basis, recorded live orchestration will always be better than virtual instruments .. that's not strictly so, in my experience - there are too many variables ..

& certainly pro grade product CAN be made with virtual tools, in certain scenarios.

Quote blue manga:

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Quote johnny artpants:

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But, re-samples, I totally agree - real instruments make you stand out.

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I wouldn't say that's 100% so..

There's a number of music libraries at the moment all running off to Eastern Europe to record orchestras on the cheap .. I keep hearing what they come back with - and it sounds more like an army of cats recorded in a biscuit tin.

If I compare that to some things I have heard from orchestral composers - who have a really good rig (in some cases, proprietary tools of their own as well) - the results are far superior..

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yes!I think you get it.we would all like the city phil wouldnt we?but unless you are actually going to do this and are actually going to hire and then record city phil in a properly expensive studio (maybe several thousands)then it is not a great idea.the guy above was on about recording average orchestra and saying pitch is not important!!

well sorry to be the one to deliver this following news but if you want to make it in this day and age in tv/film/game music you simply cannot afford to have an out of tune music!people for sure will suspect that it is not right and very probably people who make their program or game will spot this and make serious jugment at a very early stage and reject it outright

it may be a budget option but there really is some great sample cds/loops/plug ins around (session string is just one example)where they are already perfectly tuned for you and have been recorded by top orchestras anyway.also alot of soundfonts are designed to be ultra realistic

it is not ideal but if you are not got a top orchestra at your disposal it is rightly regarded as the next best thing

Just to stick my head over the parapet ...


There's a trick I use when I don't have the budget for the RPO at Abbey Road and that is to use a couple of excellent string players combined with samples. The human element of tracked up violins and cellos fools the ear into thinking the whole string section is real and it works a treat.

The golden rule though is to use real players whenever possible. Don't forget that a music college orchestra will be very keen to make a good impression and will be more interested in what it is you are trying to achieve.

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Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

For the OP if he is still interested, of course there are lots of ways to get your music heard, you know them, and it is not clear why you are asking the questions you ask. Why do you play music? Isn't music about performing for and with other people? Without gigging, how would you get feedback from the people who hear your music? Have you paid your dues and really learned how to make good music, or are you looking for a shortcut to becoming a musician that requires less work and dedication? From your post we really can't tell what the problem is. If you really want to perform, you are a talented musician, and the problem is stage fright and fear of getting up in front of an audience and playing, it might be worth seeking professional guidance to help you work through your stage fright. Without more information from you the people on this forum can't really help you to answer your question.

Quote lappi oltermanni:

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the guy above was on about recording average orchestra and saying pitch is not important!!

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If are referring to my post, I said nothing of the sort and you obviously have no experience of the level of musical studentry at our better music colleges. I suspect you haven't heard the National Youth Orchestra or the National Youth Orchestra of Wales (who, incidentally, performed Bernstein's Mass last Monday at The Proms to a packed and very appreciative audience - it's on iPlayer and the TV broadcast will be in September not long after their tour of Italy in August which has already sold out in every venue).

Heard of Chethams in Manchester? Those young musicians are regularly performing on Radio 3, The Proms, etc., and quite likely have better intonation than your sample libraries. You are also obviously not familiar with the high level of technical excellence and artistry of tomorrow's top players across Europe's conservatoires or the high standards of London's classical session players so pointless discussing things with you further.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog