Hi there,

I've just been reading this article >>> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr99/articles/b.engineer.htm <<< which suggests (or rather, pretty much explicitly states) that I'm at the preferred age for studios taking on new applicants. Anyway, I'm currently in Sixth Form studying A Levels, in part to prove to myself that I can stick at something, and in part to have some good qualifications. I did want to go to university and study Psychology, but I'm not so sure now...

Anyway, I'm getting away from my point - as I'm in sixth form, I obviously can't take on a full-time job. So, long story short, is it worth sending letters out to recording studios in my area for part-time work, or should I wait until I'm 18 and have finished A Levels and perhaps even have the opportunity to move away from the vacuum of employment that I live in?

Cheers for any advice guys - much appreciated.

Edited by domjohnson (10/12/12 08:58 PM)

what article???


Second - if you think the North East has poor employment then transfer that feeling times a thousand into the work genre that is audio. there are NO jobs in this realm!! Be wise - university first and then think about whether audio is for you. There are people with 20 years of experience that are scouring for low end audio jobs. The ex head of A&R for EMI is now weeks away from being homeless (and I mean living on the streets not losing his 7 bedroom london house - he lost that 5 years ago in negative equity). This is not a time for looking at audio as a viable career unless you have connections already. ALWAYS...

I'll say it again

ALWAYS have a back up plan in audio.

Oh, I'm under no illusion about the amount of employment in audio or music; I know it has little - that's why I'm in FE in stuff not specific to music/audio - I need qualifications that can serve for other careers too.

And original post is edited to include the link to the article. Didn't check what I was pasting in!

Edited by domjohnson (10/12/12 08:59 PM)

thats a near 13 year old article. A lot has changed!!!

Okay - my academic background is Maths. Maths all the way up to PhD. During that time worked in software a lot. That was (and in some easy still is) my back up plan.

There's a guy on this forum called Red Bladder who owns a studio and he's always looking for fresh young engineers. I suggest you PM him with a couple of quick lines telling him what you want to do and when you can start. And don't sell yourself short salary-wise, demand something decent.

just in case it wasn't obvious, I think this get left of this post: . -- Hugh

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (10/12/12 10:23 PM)

If you could work out what it is that is so appealing about the idea of working in a studio (often very, very different to the reality of it, by the way, even when earning money was possible) you'd be half way towards deciding a path for yourself.

If you like being around artists, contributing to their success and having them be eternally grateful for your creative genius, read Donald Passman's book and see if it doesn't inspire you to study law. He has VIP tickets to whatever he wants and sounds like he loves his job.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote Scramble:

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There's a guy on this forum called Red Bladder who owns a studio and he's always looking for fresh young engineers. I suggest you PM him with a couple of quick lines telling him what you want to do and when you can start. And don't sell yourself short salary-wise, demand something decent.

just in case it wasn't obvious, I think this get left of this post: . -- Hugh

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LOL

Yes, go for it, but at your age you're unlikely to get paid audio work. If you're serious about working in audio now is the time to be getting experience (which will help you get into one of the good universities if you chose to go down that path), so volunteer for anything related. Don't narrow your options to just studio work, consider other fields such as live sound and post-production.

Don't discount going to university to study psychology if it interests you. In fact consider the possibility of doing more than one degree, a joint degree or pursuing a masters. Music psychology for example is a fascinating field - if you're interested have a read of The Music Instinct or Oliver Sacks' Musicophilia... Study now and build a career later when you *really* know what you want to do. Be aware that you will be a different person in five years, ten years, fifteen years time...

Ignore the cynics and develop a passion for what you do. Put off working full-time for as long as circumstances allow, scam the benefit system and student loans system for all you can get. This country in particular hates it's youth, loves to destroy their dreams, and has such a high cost of living that unless you succeed in one of the few 'elite' careers it actually values, you will be forever working 50+ hours a week just to break even.

Quote Happyandbored:

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Ignore the cynics and develop a passion for what you do. Put off working full-time for as long as circumstances allow, scam the benefit system and student loans system for all you can get.

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Defo dont do this. Road to doom.

If you work full-time in, for example, a shop whilst studying, at the end of your three years you will end up a highly skilled shop assistant and an average graduate. If retail is your passion that's fine, but I suspect it isn't.

Was that my cage getting rattled again?

Firstly, I think young Scramble is looking for a good, solid poke in the ear.

Secondly, there is this -

Quote narcoman:

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The ex head of A&R for EMI is now weeks away from being homeless (and I mean living on the streets not losing his 7 bedroom London house - he lost that 5 years ago in negative equity).

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So now, after all these years, you are telling me that there really is a God!

As for that article, it was written in 1999 and it was twenty years out of date THEN. It describes the UK music and studio scene around 1980. The downturn in trade, the flood of wannabee engineers and the death of the CD had already begun!

But let me deal with all this 'Follow your dream!' nonsense. And that's what it is, absolute nonsense. Every year, some 3,500 graduates from about 120 universities follow their dream and graduate from some species of music production course and apply to people like me and the Narcomeister and all the other studio owners for a job. (There are also about double that number who attend some private Dooie, Cheatem & Howe college, or The Wysuckie College for the Totally Dumb.)

There are about 50 commercial recording studios in the UK and about another 100 'closed' studios that are the private tools of producers, etc. Then there are some 150 other types of studio, such as post and voice-over etc., etc. Add another 50 larger PA companies and about 20+ larger multi-media AV companies. Lastly there are the broadcasters.

(I could have added the 700 to 1,000 demo studios that get about one or two customers a year, nearly all of them started by unemployed graduates, but let me ignore them for the time being.)

Back to the figures and all those studios and other companies. I know these companies and their bosses. The man who runs the largest PA company is someone I have known for about quarter of a century. Others, like the co-owner of one of the largest AV companies, I have only known for five or ten years, usually through work. When we get together, we often talk about the flood of CVs we get more or less all year round.

And then we reflect on just how many audio people work with or for us. Studios, usually none or just one (with a long, long line of hopefuls at the door). Broadcasters - a handful. The BBC took on two last year, one from LIPA, one from the Surrey 'Tonmeister' course. AV companies don't employ audio-only people, they want systems engineers. PA - a handful. Post - one or two.

So what happens to all the others? You can meet them at your local branch of Tesco and Asda. They are those helpful young men who show you where the Tabasco is. You won't meet them at Lidls or Aldi, as those two chains are very fussy about whom they employ.

The real pro-audio scene in any part of the World is truly tiny. So small that we know most of the leading lights of the industry. From Jim Marshall to George Martin, we get to meet one another sooner or later. The reality is, this industry is just a few hundred people and all of them made their own way. They are the race horses of humanity.

Employees can be divided into three types, race horses, plough horses and donkeys. About one person in twenty is a race horse. They are highly intelligent, show huge amounts of initiative and are overall what employers call 'self-starters.' Plough horses need to be told what to do and how to do it. These are about 18 in 20 people. Donkeys (about one in 20) are the ones that are a complete waste of space. These are the 'dog-ate-my-homework' merchants and need to be painlessly destroyed.

So, if you are a shoe-in for Mensa, have a work ethic that just leaves others gasping and have the most amazing grasp of reality, combined with a profound and formal knowledge of music, IT and electronics, then you might, just might have what it takes to become the next homeless A&R executive.

Dom, write to everyone on the planet and show determination and character. Use as many websites that cater for collaborative work as possible. Network man, network.

Narco's right, Happy and whatever is talking dik. But go for it if that is what you want but accommodate the fact that it will probably be a real burner.

My advice is: follow Narco's advice. He has nice hair and knows a thing or two about today's scene.
Personally, I think it will be soul destroying but it will at least be a learning curve as well.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

"Happy and whatever is talking dik."

I'm just saying what worked for me.

Quote Happyandbored:

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"Happy and whatever is talking dik."

I'm just saying what worked for me.

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sure and that's a valid bit of commentary. However, I would not advise people to follow my path as what worked in the 90s won't work now! The best thing I ever did was enter this game while doing "educashun". The worst thing I ever did was take a fekking huge advance and sit on my butt ... fortunately I'm a lucky sod; a lot of good things have happened to narcs.....

Even more than ever - have a back up plan.


Bladders - unfortunately the said ex-A&R was one of the good ones. He fought for his artists and writers (publishing ys see). A talented chap for spotting hits (he A&R'ed hundreds of hit records, signed and invested in some of the biggest artists around today). I'm pretty gobsmacked that some of the artists out there who he brought to fame and riches haven't helped him out. They owe him their careers. Goes to show though - a man on a 6 figure salary who gave near 40 years to publishing now lives in a one roomed bedsit with nothing to his name. Have a plan and be wise.


Bladders wrote this bit : "The real pro-audio scene in any part of the World is truly tiny. So small that we know most of the leading lights of the industry. From Jim Marshall to George Martin, we get to meet one another sooner or later. The reality is, this industry is just a few hundred people and all of them made their own way. They are the race horses of humanity. " - that should be a faking T-shirt given to every audio newb. It should be a recital just before breakfast. It really is a few hundred people.

>Music psychology for example is a fascinating field

I know people in music psychology. It is a fascinating field, but there are no prospects in it. You will have to get a good degree (and music psychology is far more psychology than music), then work very hard to get a PhD (most of this work will be very repetitive and involve a lot of computer programming) and then for a few more years you will have to work equally hard trying to get some publications in refereed journals, usually while working as a part-time tutor, until the once-every-five-years job in music psychology pops up, which you will have to compete for against very bright Oxbridge types who are friends with all the people in the field already.

Having said that, a music and psychology degree can lead to other opportunities, although not so much the music part. And the career destinations of most psychology graduates aren't hugely exciting.

One of the good things about going to Uni if you want a career in music/sound is that you can get involved with bands and live sound while there and gain valuable experience and make useful contacts, and all while getting a degree. But going to a crap University is not so useful, the bands generally won't be as good, the friends you make will probably end up nowhere, there won't be as much money around for gear, and your degree won't be worth as much. But you know all that, right?

Quote Happyandbored:

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Yes, go for it, but at your age you're unlikely to get paid audio work. If you're serious about working in audio now is the time to be getting experience (which will help you get into one of the good universities if you chose to go down that path), so volunteer for anything related. Don't narrow your options to just studio work, consider other fields such as live sound and post-production.

Don't discount going to university to study psychology if it interests you. In fact consider the possibility of doing more than one degree, a joint degree or pursuing a masters. Music psychology for example is a fascinating field - if you're interested have a read of The Music Instinct or Oliver Sacks' Musicophilia... Study now and build a career later when you *really* know what you want to do. Be aware that you will be a different person in five years, ten years, fifteen years time...

Ignore the cynics and develop a passion for what you do. Put off working full-time for as long as circumstances allow, scam the benefit system and student loans system for all you can get. This country in particular hates it's youth, loves to destroy their dreams, and has such a high cost of living that unless you succeed in one of the few 'elite' careers it actually values, you will be forever working 50+ hours a week just to break even.

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I've read some guff in my time, but pretty much all of that takes the bloody pigeon!

Music psychology? Dear God! Can there be a less employable individual on Planet Earth?

Combined degrees? As an employer, I avoid graduates with bogus combinations like an outbreak of the Black Death. German and Chemistry is good, Mandarin and Economics is good. Music with anything is bad.

Live sound and post? Both fields are primarily looking for systems engineers and other IT specialists. And post production studios seem to be going to the wall even faster than recording studios, as they can be replaced by a freelancer with a laptop.

Ignore the cynics and develop a passion? I get hundreds of CVs every year from young hopefuls who, almost to a man, claim to have a passion. A marketable ability would be infinitely more useful!

As Ayn Rand wrote “You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.”

Oh dear! 50 hours a week too much? I work at least 60 hours a week. I start at 7:30 and finish at six in the evening and no breaks. Laziness is a secret ingredient that goes into failure, but it’s only kept a secret from the person who fails.

As for this country hating its youth, there are more opportunities for young people today than there have ever been. Study any of the technical or scientific subjects and the World is your oyster. Combine that with a language or two and you will be paid and paid handsomely to see the World.

I'm ready for a flaming here not wise to contradict the forum elite.


However...

This stuff about demo studios having 1 or 2 clients a year and struggling to survive is nonsense.

I know a guy, who started very modestly recording his mates bands for next to nothing. Built up his skills and gear up slowly and now runs a modest studio (with very well selected gear - some beautiful outboard). His studio has a three month waiting list.

His secret is simply to do a great job at a good price and to go the extra mile for his customers like staying till the project is finished rather than clock watching. He probably earns less than 20k a year, but he is happy and successful. He ignored all the doubters who said he needed 200k to set up a studio (whole set up probably cost less than 20k) and MADE it work through sheer determination

Some people on here live in the world where you are not pro unless you have a rack of 20 fairchilds and charge 1k a day. It's the same as some antique dealers I meet. They have all the best bits and rarest items. They look down on me cos I sell old toys, tins and brick a brack. However I invariably make far more money than they do.

>Some people on here live in the world where you are not pro unless you have a rack of 20 fairchilds and charge 1k a day

Very few studios charge anything near 1k a day these days!

And yes 50 hours a week is too much. It's another symptom our Protestant work ethic influenced culture which dictates that work can't be worthwhile unless it's arduous, unpleasant and all encompassing.

More progressive cultures like Finland and Norway limit their working weeks to 35 hours. Working more than that is actually seen as immoral, as you are seen to be neglecting your family commitments. Even the editors of the top newspapers in the country only work a 35 hour week.

These countries all have a higher standard of living than we do and a healthier, happier and more productive population

Scramble - I'm clearly exaggerating to emphasise a point.

>His secret is simply to do a great job at a good price and to go the extra mile for his customers like staying till the project is finished rather than clock watching.

So he's not doing a 35-hour week then!

No audio engineer has ever worked a 35-hour week ever.

Quote narpin99:

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I'm ready for a flaming here not wise to contradict the forum elite.


However...

This stuff about demo studios having 1 or 2 clients a year and struggling to survive is nonsense.

I know a guy, who started very modestly recording his mates bands for next to nothing. Built up his skills and gear up slowly and now runs a modest studio (with very well selected gear - some beautiful outboard). His studio has a three month waiting list.

His secret is simply to do a great job at a good price and to go the extra mile for his customers like staying till the project is finished rather than clock watching. He probably earns less than 20k a year, but he is happy and successful. He ignored all the doubters who said he needed 200k to set up a studio (whole set up probably cost less than 20k) and MADE it work through sheer determination

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How much is he making? where will he be in 5 years? There's always one that breaks the hold.... etc etc

I've been where he is, done that. Slaved away for low money - then it comes to trying to buy a house or get a pension sorted. You can't. You have no credit rating, you're earning £17k a year and giving your life to recording. There is good intentions and there is life compatible with living in the modern western world. Low end band recording aint it.

Your mate is heading to hell my friend!! The only way you get to make a move upwards is by having the unbelievable luck that I've had. I bought a house (cash) through a one time success. I bought a second house (big deposit and mortgage) as a pension pot for the future. Luck brought both of those things to me - not planning. I was stupid but lucky. There is no money in the demo zone. There is a lot of fun and a lot of lottery tickets, sure.

Quote Scramble:

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No audio engineer has ever worked a 35-hour week ever.

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Some freelance engineers I know struggle to get a 35-hour year!

No he is not heading to hell.

He loves what he does and gets paid for it.

Hell is doing what you hate for 40 years to earn the trappings of success ( pension mortgage) that the world dictates you must have to be 'successful'

I'd rather have nothing and be happy than be 'rich' and miserable.

I talk from experience. I used to be a teacher and worked 70+ hours a week. I had a nervous breakdown.
I'm much poorer now. And live a far more modest lifestyle. But I'm a 1000% happier.

People who persue well being and happiness in life will always end up winners.

Quote narpin99:

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No he is not heading to hell.

He loves what he does and gets paid for it.

Hell is doing what you hate for 40 years to earn the trappings of success ( pension mortgage) that the world dictates you must have to be 'successful'

I'd rather have nothing and be happy than be 'rich' and miserable.

I talk from experience. I used to be a teacher and worked 70+ hours a week. I had a nervous breakdown.
I'm much poorer now. And live a far more modest lifestyle. But I'm a 1000% happier.

People who persue well being and happiness in life will always end up winners.

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... We'll see. What worked for you might not work for him. What is it that YOU do now?

Lets see - you were under paid, worked 70 hours a week and had a nervous breakdown? Sound like any other "career"? Recording at the low end! He loves it now, ask him in 5 years or ten years when its too late to change.... he is on the road to hell I promise you. He has set a path down that only luck will break him from. I wish him well - I love nothing more than being wrong in that observation. The problem is all too often I'm right. Wait till he gets an unpleasant client or one that fucks him over with the council (cus if he set up with £20k he's doing it illegally - rates, legitimate building use etc etc) or he decides not to join the FSB and gets a VAT inspection. OR, as often happens with studios, he gets burgled.

You laugh at people who have had mental health issues. This ends my conversation with you. Not cool

Quote narpin99:

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You laugh at people who have had mental health issues. This ends my conversation with you. Not cool

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who's laughing at you? Idiot. Self righteous idiot in fact.

Know who else has had a nervous break down? Me. Know who's brother has bi-polar disorder? mine. Grow up. Idiot.

You have edited your post to remove the mocking laughter. Need I say more.

Quote narpin99:

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You have edited your post to remove the mocking laughter. Need I say more.

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was laughing at the "he loves what he does". That will change. Jumped the gun didn't you?

I'm now being called an idiot. Although I'm sure that will be edited too. I'm sure personal insults are against the rules, even for long time members.

Quote narpin99:

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I'm now being called an idiot. Although I'm sure that will be edited too. I'm sure personal insults are against the rules, even for long time members.

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Im sure they are but you're putting foreword self righteous idiocy and that is just loathsome (i mean really - what kind of person brings in his absolutely admirable survival of nervous breakdown into an argument - apart from matching you have you EVER seen me do that? You're throwing it around glibly as some justification for knowing more than anyone else about "getting out of the rat race" where in fact the very role your mate is in LEADS to muchos work problems )

If you can't discuss things with people then don't bother chiming in.

Re: "Music psychology? Dear God! Can there be a less employable individual on Planet Earth?"

So is furthering human understanding of how the mind works and of how we process and comprehend sound of no worth because it does not, in your particularly bigoted opinion, directly lead to employment? As another poster writes, it would be an equally difficult field to succeed in, but it is something else to consider, whether in the form of a combined degree, second degree, or post-graduate studies.

Re: "Live sound and post? Both fields are primarily looking for systems engineers and other IT specialists. And post production studios seem to be going to the wall even faster than recording studios, as they can be replaced by a freelancer with a laptop."

Then why not just recommend to the original poster to train in IT or electronics without the usual negative trash? Sure, you do eventually advise pursuing technical or scientific subjects, but a more positive approach would outline how those subjects could potentially tie in with the poster's interest in studio work, as well as providing a secure fall-back plan.

Re: "Oh dear! 50 hours a week too much? I work at least 60 hours a week. I start at 7:30 and finish at six in the evening and no breaks. Laziness is a secret ingredient that goes into failure, but it’s only kept a secret from the person who fails."

I actually said 50+. This includes 60. Perhaps if you're so unhappy working 60 hours a week, you could employ an assistant at a very reasonable rate and enjoy a better work/life balance? I hear there are many highly qualified graduates in your field.

Re: "As for this country hating its youth, there are more opportunities for young people today than there have ever been."

This wasn't in reference to opportunities, but damaging attitudes such as yours.

Quote Scramble:

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Having said that, a music and psychology degree can lead to other opportunities...

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Such as ?

Quote Happyandbored:

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So is furthering human understanding of how the mind works and of how we process and comprehend sound of no worth because it does not, in your particularly bigoted opinion, directly lead to employment? As another poster writes, it would be an equally difficult field to succeed in, but it is something else to consider, whether in the form of a combined degree, second degree, or post-graduate studies.

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It's certainly a better option than throwing in the towel for music.

Quote Happyandbored:

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Then why not just recommend to the original poster to train in IT or electronics without the usual negative trash? Sure, you do eventually advise pursuing technical or scientific subjects, but a more positive approach would outline how those subjects could potentially tie in with the poster's interest in studio work, as well as providing a secure fall-back plan.

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ach - that's Bladders. You're right - he could do with being a little more restrained with those who don't know him... but at least the points are correct if not exactly polite.

I can discuss things with people. I accept that you were not mocking me and perhaps I jumped the gun. The post just read that way to me. I apologise.

I like a debate. But laughing at people and claiming that you know and it's just a matter of time before people see it your way does not make for a good discussion and is condescending.

The teacher often has as much to learn from the student as the student from the teacher.

Quote narpin99:

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I can discuss things with people. I accept that you were not mocking me and perhaps I jumped the gun. The post just read that way to me. I apologise.

I like a debate. But laughing at people and claiming that you know and it's just a matter of time before people see it your way does not make for a good discussion and is condescending.

The teacher often has as much to learn from the student as the student from the teacher.

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Fair enough then. I remove my sword of idiocy and jab it upon my own reactionary mouth.

The intent isn't to condescend (although intent is nothing - its actions that count). There is no justifiable case to advise people cutting all bridges and getting into audio. If they can STILL go ahead and do it then they might just be made of the right stuff. I know loads of people who have succeeded in they biz - they make up the several hundred who ARE the biz. There are thousands who have failed. The point being - I've many stories of people succeeding in the biz but they are rare and not evidence for it being a wise path to follow.

Quote narpin99:

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I like a debate. But laughing at people and claiming that you know and it's just a matter of time before people see it your way does not make for a good discussion and is condescending.

The teacher often has as much to learn from the student as the student from the teacher.

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I have no particular axe to grind, but...surely its simply a matter of basic mathematics....?

If there are only 50 jobs per year or whatever, and there are 5,000 people chasing them, then inevitably, 4,950 will have to think again ?

'Passion' can only create more jobs if the passionee uses it to create their own job, or convinces someone else to fund it, as has already been said many times ?

>Such as ?

13.9% Social and welfare professions
13.7% Other clerical and secretarial occupations
13.7% Retail, catering, waiting and bar staff
8.1% Commercial, industrial and public sector managers
6.7% Business and financial professions
4.4% Other professional and technical occupations
3.8% Education professions
3.7% Marketing, sales and advertising professions
2.7% Health professionals
2.1% Numerical clerks and cashiers
1.4% Arts, design, culture and sports
1.0% Information technology professions
0.9% Scientific research, analysis and development; legal and engineering professions

Reference: p. 72 of this guide.

This information will be skewed because it's probably a survey of recent graduates who haven't got that far yet (most of these surveys are like this). But I agree it doesn't make Psychology look that attractive -- a quarter are secretaries or waiters/bartenders. (I'm not personally recommending a Psychology degree, it's not what I would do, it's what the OP is thinking of doing).

But like most degrees these days the courses are filled up with plodders who don't get far, and a smaller amount of better students who end up with more exciting destinations.

Quote Happyandbored:

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Re: "Music psychology? Dear God! Can there be a less employable individual on Planet Earth?"

So is furthering human understanding of how the mind works and of how we process and comprehend sound of no worth because it does not, in your particularly bigoted opinion, directly lead to employment?

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You are (deliberately?) equating value with employment. It may be of great value, but the boy has to eat. Tell any girl that you are a music psychologist and she will edge away and start looking for the nearest plumber or brickie.

Quote Happyandbored:

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Perhaps if you're so unhappy working 60 hours a week, you could employ an assistant at a very reasonable rate and enjoy a better work/life balance? I hear there are many highly qualified graduates in your field.

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I work 60 hours a week because I love my work! The studio is one of my businesses and I also work as an economist, both here and in Germany. I am also starting a publishing business next year and I hope to branch out into Africa soon. So where are all these bilingual economists with media backgrounds?

Quote Happyandbored:

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Re: "As for this country hating its youth, there are more opportunities for young people today than there have ever been."

This wasn't in reference to opportunities, but damaging attitudes such as yours.

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To which I would answer - “My other piece of advice, Copperfield,” said Mr. Micawber, “you know. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery. The blossom is blighted, the leaf is withered, the God of day goes down upon the dreary scene and, in short, you are forever floored. As I am!”

Back to the original question...

When I was your age in 6th form I lugged my old Brennel MkV tape recorder along to the college music events and started to make a name for myself as the guy with the recording gear. I started to get asked to record people outside college and things just grew from there.

I'm still not sure whether running a commercial studio for 12 years was a good idea as I then had to do all kinds of things to pay the rent so I'm now back doing recording on the side and I'm fortunate to be now working with bands I used to listen to in my sixth form days.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net