The government's UK copyright law site outlines the IPO and Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, the principal legislation covering intellectual property rights in the United Kingdom and the work to which it applies.

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tonemangler
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Joined: 23/04/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Toronto , Canada
protecting your art
      #1090244 - 22/02/14 10:16 PM
Hello everyone,

I was wondering, of the thousands of people who upload their music onto the web what percentage take measures to protect their art. I have never shared my music online. I'm a bedroom studio owner who loves to write music and like most artists develops a deep emotional attachment to my art. There are two reasons why I fear sharing my music online. Firstly I'm afraid no one will like my songs and tell me to go away. Secondly I'm afraid someone will love my music and exploit it for personal gains. There is nothing I can do about the 1st one except try to write better music. The 2nd one means I'm on the right path musically but not financially.

I began to think, since there are thousands or maybe millions of people who write music just like me, maybe it is overkill to spend money on legal copyrights every time you post a song online. Surely my music will just get lost in a vast wasteland of 1's and 0's. However, there is always some lucky sod who wins the lottery so some form of protection may be warranted.

I was collaborating with a friend a few months back and he asked me to email him a chord chart with lyrics. This got me thinking. If I email myself the same sort of thing with an audio attachment would this provide some proof of ownership? The email would have a time and date stamp and I could print it for a hard copy.

Maybe by just uploading music onto a server such as souncloud or facebook a digital time stamp is generated automatically which may be some level of protection in itself. Or maybe it is all senseless and I should upload my music and let the chips lie where they may. It's like when I asked an old acquaintance of mine many years ago if he was worried about using uncleared samples in his music, he answered "Not at all, I hope I get sued because that means I've made the big time." In the same sense if your song gets "lifted" and obtains some level of success, maybe you've made the big time.

Any thoughts?

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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CS70



Joined: 26/11/12
Posts: 402
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090274 - 23/02/14 11:49 AM
Let me put it like this: if you ever are in a situation where your copyright is an issue, and someone's making a whackload of money out of your music without giving you credit (and a share), it'd be a good thing anyway. If they'd be successful enough for the issue to be relevant, there's a big chance you would get to know it, and take the necessary steps.

In that case, relevant information could be found (for example, upload dates to Soundcloud etc) and you could build a case - which (under the assumption that the thief is successful) would give you exposure as well.. and you can always make more of your music, while he can't. Just don't send files via mail: upload to third-party services like SoundCloud or New MySpace so that there's an independent and reliable third party holding dates etc.

What may well happen in reality is that someone samples or reuses your stuff in some other obscure piece of music and gets no more returns from it than you (mainly, the fun of making music).

Copyright is an issue only where there are sizable returns to share.

--------------------
http://www.silver-spoon.org - It's just music
..and the FB page


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
Posts: 3386
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090285 - 23/02/14 12:57 PM
Quote tonemangler:

Hello everyone,

I was wondering, of the thousands of people who upload their music onto the web what percentage take measures to protect their art. I have never shared my music online. I'm a bedroom studio owner who loves to write music and like most artists develops a deep emotional attachment to my art. There are two reasons why I fear sharing my music online. Firstly I'm afraid no one will like my songs and tell me to go away. Secondly I'm afraid someone will love my music and exploit it for personal gains.



You are justifying being a coward to yourself. Time to grow a pair. If your 'art' is actually just crap then you will just have to get over it and come back with something better. That's what successful people do.


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5647
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090294 - 23/02/14 02:04 PM
Quote tonemangler:

There are two reasons why I fear sharing my music online. Firstly I'm afraid no one will like my songs and tell me to go away. Secondly I'm afraid someone will love my music and exploit it for personal gains. There is nothing I can do about the 1st one except try to write better music. The 2nd one means I'm on the right path musically but not financially.




I don't like your music. Go away.

There, that didn't hurt much, did it!

If you find someone using your music, contact them. Practically speaking, the most you'll be able to achieve is to stop them using it. Or maybe give you a credit, which would be nice!


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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
Posts: 3511
Loc: London, United Kingdom
Re: protecting your art new [Re: johnny h]
      #1090303 - 23/02/14 03:05 PM
Quote johnny h:

Quote tonemangler:

Hello everyone,

I was wondering, of the thousands of people who upload their music onto the web what percentage take measures to protect their art. I have never shared my music online. I'm a bedroom studio owner who loves to write music and like most artists develops a deep emotional attachment to my art. There are two reasons why I fear sharing my music online. Firstly I'm afraid no one will like my songs and tell me to go away. Secondly I'm afraid someone will love my music and exploit it for personal gains.



You are justifying being a coward to yourself. Time to grow a pair. If your 'art' is actually just crap then you will just have to get over it and come back with something better. That's what successful people do.




On the other hand who says you 'must' share your music. Who is to say it has any less worth if you don't share it? As you say, you have a deeply emotional attachment to it, so why risk exposing it to poorly thought through criticism from other bedroom studio owners all for the hope of a pat on the head? For example, have you read any of the album reviews in SOS magazine? They can be pretty damning and yet when you read them you have to ask yourself how was that objective? Also I think its fair to say that Johnny H does not speak as a bedroom studio owner. He's a professional performing musician who works on both sides of the Atlantic and is immersed in a world of total commitment to his music being heard by others. For him not publishing his music would be giving up. Quite right. But for many of us non professionals we have to ask ourselves what's in it for me, to just give this deeply personal thing away? Most of us are a great deal more choosy about who we sleep with, for example. We don't go giving bits of ourselves away in bedrooms once we've understood what that means. As for the copyright issue, its easy enough to prove that you wrote something these days. Its also easy enough to prove that somebody else wrote it before you. And so on and so on. Is it the music people write that makes the money or is it the way its used, promoted, distributed and marketed that makes the money? That's no discredit to the people who work in placement, marketing and promotion. But today the music has less value precisely because it is so randomly bandied about the internet. Basically if you're someone who uses 'Facebook' you should just get it out there and give it away like no tomorrow. And if you're not someone who uses 'Facebook' you might want to be equally circumspect about where you allow your music to be heard. Personally I only ever share with other musicians who I like and respect, and who I know will give me the 10% of objective criticism I need as an affirmation that I am creating something worthwhile and a guidance to be better yet (or an honest and heartfelt WTF dude? Go away until you can come back with some art). And if I do decide to put a gigging band together again and work at building a local fan base (it would never be with serious commercial intent - I just don't want that or what would come with it in terms of commitment) the music would only be published on the vinyl format.

You ask about 'protecting your art'. To me art is something you do for yourself - craft is what you do for other people. Nobody gets paid for art, only craft. So you're highly unlikely to ever get paid for what you are doing. But it is enormously personal and of high value to you. So you are right to protect it from abuse. In any case it is already being abused the moment you publish it for 'free' because somebody is already selling advertising space on the back of it. No social media is exempt from this rule. That's how social media works. You give the sites free content and they turn that into revenue by selling advertising on the back of it. Copyright can't protect you from that kind of abuse.

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun


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BJG145



Joined: 06/08/05
Posts: 3322
Loc: Norwich UK
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090305 - 23/02/14 03:19 PM
Creating "art" that is purely for personal consumption is weird, onanistic, and a waste of time. And the chances of anyone else profiting from what you upload are infinitesimal. Like Johnny says, just put it out there and then try and write something better.


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BJG145



Joined: 06/08/05
Posts: 3322
Loc: Norwich UK
Re: protecting your art new [Re: BJG145]
      #1090309 - 23/02/14 04:43 PM
Quote BJG145:

Creating "art" that is purely for personal consumption is weird, onanistic, and a waste of time.




*relents*

OK, so maybe that's a bit harsh.


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Folderol



Joined: 15/11/08
Posts: 3568
Loc: Rochester, UK
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090313 - 23/02/14 04:54 PM
Another way to look at it. If someone stole your last song they didn't get your best one. They didn't get the one you're working on now, which will, of course, be a better one

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)


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tonemangler
member


Joined: 23/04/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Toronto , Canada
Re: protecting your art new [Re: CS70]
      #1090315 - 23/02/14 05:09 PM
Quote CS70:

Let me put it like this: if you ever are in a situation where your copyright is an issue, and someone's making a whackload of money out of your music without giving you credit (and a share), it'd be a good thing anyway. If they'd be successful enough for the issue to be relevant, there's a big chance you would get to know it, and take the necessary steps.

In that case, relevant information could be found (for example, upload dates to Soundcloud etc) and you could build a case - which (under the assumption that the thief is successful) would give you exposure as well.. and you can always make more of your music, while he can't. Just don't send files via mail: upload to third-party services like SoundCloud or New MySpace so that there's an independent and reliable third party holding dates etc.

What may well happen in reality is that someone samples or reuses your stuff in some other obscure piece of music and gets no more returns from it than you (mainly, the fun of making music).

Copyright is an issue only where there are sizable returns to share.




Thanks for this. My original post was somewhat of a rhetorical question asking whether in this day and age is it necessary for the average songwriter to legally copy write his or her work. A friend of mine doesn't upload his music for fear of theft, but I felt that the chance of that happening was miniscule, and if it did happen there are manners of protection inherent in the digital delivery process. Your response reaffirms my view.

Cheers

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
Posts: 3511
Loc: London, United Kingdom
Re: protecting your art new [Re: BJG145]
      #1090320 - 23/02/14 05:26 PM
Quote BJG145:

Creating "art" that is purely for personal consumption is weird, onanistic, and a waste of time.




Frankly I often feel the same way about people who create 'art' only to impress other people. Not always but often. It rather depends how its done. Unfortunately its all too often just another needy individual desperate for approval. I really can't think of a bigger waste of time that bothering with those.

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun


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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
Posts: 3511
Loc: London, United Kingdom
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090321 - 23/02/14 05:31 PM
Quote tonemangler:

A friend of mine doesn't upload his music for fear of theft, but I felt that the chance of that happening was miniscule,




They are but for me that's not the point. Its the other forms of abuse one invites that concern me just as much and you can't 'protect' yourself from those.

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun


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tonemangler
member


Joined: 23/04/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Toronto , Canada
Re: protecting your art new [Re: johnny h]
      #1090324 - 23/02/14 05:46 PM
Quote johnny h:

Quote tonemangler:

Hello everyone,

I was wondering, of the thousands of people who upload their music onto the web what percentage take measures to protect their art. I have never shared my music online. I'm a bedroom studio owner who loves to write music and like most artists develops a deep emotional attachment to my art. There are two reasons why I fear sharing my music online. Firstly I'm afraid no one will like my songs and tell me to go away. Secondly I'm afraid someone will love my music and exploit it for personal gains.



You are justifying being a coward to yourself. Time to grow a pair. If your 'art' is actually just crap then you will just have to get over it and come back with something better. That's what successful people do.




After rereading my OP I can understand your impression of me, this part of my post was tongue in cheek and my attempt at wit. I've received both praise and criticism for my music and I've learned to just carry on. The real point of the discussion was if it makes sense to copy write ones music in this day and age.

I admit that I am somewhat insecure about my musical abilities, but I'm sure I'm not alone even amongst professionals. Having strangers judge you can be tough, especially when you've poured your heart and soul into something and have a deep emotional attachment to it. Anyone who says this wouldn't bother them must indeed have a very big pair. I've never made a dime from my music so in that regard I guess I am not successful, but I enjoy the process of starting with nothing and finishing with something that gives me immense satisfaction.

OK now it's time for me to carry on.

Paul

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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tonemangler
member


Joined: 23/04/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Toronto , Canada
Re: protecting your art new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #1090326 - 23/02/14 05:53 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote tonemangler:

There are two reasons why I fear sharing my music online. Firstly I'm afraid no one will like my songs and tell me to go away. Secondly I'm afraid someone will love my music and exploit it for personal gains. There is nothing I can do about the 1st one except try to write better music. The 2nd one means I'm on the right path musically but not financially.




I don't like your music. Go away.

There, that didn't hurt much, did it!

If you find someone using your music, contact them. Practically speaking, the most you'll be able to achieve is to stop them using it. Or maybe give you a credit, which would be nice!




How can I respond when I already left?

Us insecure songwriters are a real pain in the arse!

P

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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Barry Garlow



Joined: 26/11/13
Posts: 840
Re: protecting your art new [Re: Frisonic]
      #1090327 - 23/02/14 05:56 PM
Quote Frisonic:

...On the other hand who says you 'must' share your music. Who is to say it has any less worth if you don't share it?




Absolutely.

There's some idea that every picture of the cat, every poem, story, piece of music, hilarious baby feeding mistake, fart or whatever other piece of our personal lives have to be immediately uploaded to some social networking site (becuase that's all soundcloud and the like are)... why? A new idea capitalising on new technologies and done possibly for the same reason dogs lick their balls - because they can!

Hard to point the OP in the right direction for advice as he's in Canada. I would normally say Bemuso at http://www.bemuso.com/musicbiz/musiccopyrightlaw.html and recommend they read the whole site as its invaluable for DIY'ers.

What might be a good idea is to get yourself a CD together and use one of the aggregators like CDBaby (there are others), you send a CD, get the thing barcoded up and they do the distribution to the download and streaming sites and keep a copy of your CD in the archives.

The other thing you should do if you have a good song (and this is just good for your own records let alone the Libray of Congress) is to create a cheat sheet or lead sheet as a minimum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_sheet its a good habit to get into and can be pretty basic and is good discipline, melody, harmony, lyric... that's a song, unless you is a rapper den u needz de beetz too, werd.

imo, there are two types of artist and one of them is a whore. They will do anything for a donut and aren't worth the paper they are written on (sorry), they just wait to be led by the nose. Real artists do their own thing and get personal fulfilment and success from that, if they get financial success then all the better but tbh its unlikely.

So i'm with Frisonic, think long and hard before you slap a load of tunes up on some download site and sit and wait for comments.

I have a great story about these places. We decided to put some tunes up on one of those anonymous review sites, this was back in the early naughties when people were trying to work out how to make a buck out of the internet, there were a few of these sites and probably still are.

To my surprise one of my all time favourite artists who had split from his extremely successful band some years before had put some songs there too, he is now independent. Now this guy had a number 1 and a string of top 40 hits in the US, toured the world for years and wrote and recorded a string of hit abums. American guy, i won't say who because it will identify me to lot of people who read this site and i want to be able to troll in peace.

Anyway, these songs were beautiful, finely crafted masterpieces performed on acoustic guitar and with his beautiful vocal... They ripped him to pieces. These bedroom neverhasbeen people with their drum machines and samples, they ripped his apart, and thats it you see... its a hiding to nothing.

It doesn't matter who you are and wnat you do there is no way that everyone is going to like you, and by the same token there is no way that everyone is going to dislike you. Someone somewhere will love your stuff. I actually have a couple of tunes tha i've kept from this forum when they used to have a dedicated section for members' music. They pop up on random sometimes next to some of my favourite tunes and i enjoy them as much.

If people don't like it do something else? Nope, if people don't like it, find different people. Like what the Beatles did. There are loads of artists chasing trends around and deconstructing the formula of the latest hit, trying to mimic the sound, sampling, beat detecting and the rest. Its why we have so much crap around.

Go our own way, you'll know when you have something that you want to unleash on the world and when you do you want care what anyone thinks.

Bottom line, its very hard to protect music, and it would cost you a fortune in the courts to do so, and it would only be worth going through all that if the tune made a lot of money, and if it did then the sort of organisations you would be up against would grind you to a pulp.

Just enjoy your music, do as you feel, good luck and fair weather!


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tonemangler
member


Joined: 23/04/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Toronto , Canada
Re: protecting your art new [Re: Frisonic]
      #1090329 - 23/02/14 06:28 PM
Quote Frisonic:


On the other hand who says you 'must' share your music. Who is to say it has any less worth if you don't share it? As you say, you have a deeply emotional attachment to it, so why risk exposing it to poorly thought through criticism from other bedroom studio owners all for the hope of a pat on the head? For example, have you read any of the album reviews in SOS magazine? They can be pretty damning and yet when you read them you have to ask yourself how was that objective? Also I think its fair to say that Johnny H does not speak as a bedroom studio owner. He's a professional performing musician who works on both sides of the Atlantic and is immersed in a world of total commitment to his music being heard by others. For him not publishing his music would be giving up. Quite right. But for many of us non professionals we have to ask ourselves what's in it for me, to just give this deeply personal thing away? Most of us are a great deal more choosy about who we sleep with, for example. We don't go giving bits of ourselves away in bedrooms once we've understood what that means. As for the copyright issue, its easy enough to prove that you wrote something these days. Its also easy enough to prove that somebody else wrote it before you. And so on and so on. Is it the music people write that makes the money or is it the way its used, promoted, distributed and marketed that makes the money? That's no discredit to the people who work in placement, marketing and promotion. But today the music has less value precisely because it is so randomly bandied about the internet. Basically if you're someone who uses 'Facebook' you should just get it out there and give it away like no tomorrow. And if you're not someone who uses 'Facebook' you might want to be equally circumspect about where you allow your music to be heard. Personally I only ever share with other musicians who I like and respect, and who I know will give me the 10% of objective criticism I need as an affirmation that I am creating something worthwhile and a guidance to be better yet (or an honest and heartfelt WTF dude? Go away until you can come back with some art). And if I do decide to put a gigging band together again and work at building a local fan base (it would never be with serious commercial intent - I just don't want that or what would come with it in terms of commitment) the music would only be published on the vinyl format.

You ask about 'protecting your art'. To me art is something you do for yourself - craft is what you do for other people. Nobody gets paid for art, only craft. So you're highly unlikely to ever get paid for what you are doing. But it is enormously personal and of high value to you. So you are right to protect it from abuse. In any case it is already being abused the moment you publish it for 'free' because somebody is already selling advertising space on the back of it. No social media is exempt from this rule. That's how social media works. You give the sites free content and they turn that into revenue by selling advertising on the back of it. Copyright can't protect you from that kind of abuse.




I agree with most of what you say here. Through out my life people couldn't understand why I spend so much time on something that brings no financial gain. I've received my share of eye rolls when I say I'm spending my holidays in the studio. I guess some people are born with this obsession embedded in their DNA. Dolly Parton said her songs are like her children, which is absurd to the average person, but I totally get this.

However I feel that the "art" that I create, if worthy, should be shared with the world. My love is in the process of creation. I rarely listen to previous works, I'm too anxious to start the next one. My problem is that I'm a perfectionist and until my songs sound in the real world close to the way they sound in my head I will continue sharing with only friends and family.

Paul

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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BJG145



Joined: 06/08/05
Posts: 3322
Loc: Norwich UK
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090331 - 23/02/14 06:43 PM
Quote tonemangler:

My problem is that I'm a perfectionist




...oh, cool - remember that for future job interviews...


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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
Posts: 3511
Loc: London, United Kingdom
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090369 - 23/02/14 11:12 PM
Quote tonemangler:

[I feel that the "art" that I create, if worthy, should be shared with the world.

Paul




For many years I was bullied, mostly by art school types to 'share' my work. It was a duty they said. It is an essential part of the creative process. You give something to an audience and it responds to you, and so the virtuous cycle goes. These days I have an somewhat extraordinary father in law, now well into his 80s. Putting his childhood aside (sold to gypsies aged 4 as a slave by his prostitute mother in 1930's communist Hungary). He ended up being the fist non Russian ever to train at the Kirov and he and his partner/1st wife became the biggest ballet stars in the eastern bloc during the first years of the 1950s. Had to dance for Stalin etc. 21 years old and he had it all. The fabulous apartment on the Danube, the chauffeured Zil, the invitation to 'join the Party' (he never did). But they wanted the world, so they rather famously and riskily defected while performing in Berlin in '53. Sure enough they became the biggest ballet stars in the world for a while. It was a bit weird at first because of course western audiences had never seen the giant Russian leaps before. What they were doing was not exactly in the 'French school'! The critics accused them of using cheap acrobatics and trampolines off stage etc. But they paved the way for Nureyev, danced in Hollywood with Ginger Rodgers. The CIA even made a propaganda film using them when they became American citizens (Leap Through The Curtain)! The whole dream. So in say about '56 they were doing opera houses in places like Rio de Janeiro and banking around $1,500 a night. Serious money in those days.

One day I asked him. You have been a great star and a great artist. World renowned in your time. Acknowledged as a master and a pioneer. So tell me, how did you feel the response from your audience? How did you get your feedback? How did you know you were getting through? Now, we were on a train from Pen Station to Long island and to be honest he was quite drunk at the time. But I have never forgotten his reply: "Cabbages". "What"? I said. "The audience were a sea of cabbage heads. Those people didn't understand even 10% of what I was doing. Not technically. They were there because they thought it was a smart place to be. To me they were nothing more than a field of cabbages, like the ones I had to pick as a small boy. We did our show and put the money in the bank". They loved him for it. Still do.

That day was an education. One that apparently one doesn't generally get in a British Art school these days. And if the money was coming in I'd do exactly the same. But it isn't. It isn't ever going to. I even rejected the possibility (I did have an opportunity to try my luck at 'making it' as a kid in the early 80s - but declined). I decided a long time ago that I didn't want the responsibility of needing to appreciate an audience that I didn't really trust. And that's why I protect my work by keeping it hidden.

If you are going to share then the easiest way to copywrite, as has already been suggested, is simply to publish. Its the cheapest, easiest thing to do these days. And good luck with that!

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun


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tonemangler
member


Joined: 23/04/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Toronto , Canada
Re: protecting your art new [Re: Barry Garlow]
      #1090376 - 23/02/14 11:56 PM
Quote Barry Garlow:


What might be a good idea is to get yourself a CD together and use one of the aggregators like CDBaby (there are others), you send a CD, get the thing barcoded up and they do the distribution to the download and streaming sites and keep a copy of your CD in the archives.



This is good info but that means I'd have to complete a CD's worth of music before I start posting...could take a while.

Quote Barry Garlow:


The other thing you should do if you have a good song (and this is just good for your own records let alone the Libray of Congress) is to create a cheat sheet or lead sheet as a minimum



This looks similar to my idea of emailing myself a chord chart with lyrics. I would have to add musical notation to be complete, which I'm not trained in.

One question, why would I need to do this:
Quote Barry Garlow:

Hard to point the OP in the right direction for advice as he's in Canada. I would normally say Bemuso at http://www.bemuso.com/musicbiz/musiccopyrightlaw.html and recommend they read the whole site as its invaluable for DIY'ers.




If only to end up here:
Quote Barry Garlow:


Bottom line, its very hard to protect music, and it would cost you a fortune in the courts to do so, and it would only be worth going through all that if the tune made a lot of money, and if it did then the sort of organisations you would be up against would grind you to a pulp.



It just seems pointless if justice isn't served.

Quote Barry Garlow:


It doesn't matter who you are and wnat you do there is no way that everyone is going to like you, and by the same token there is no way that everyone is going to dislike you. Someone somewhere will love your stuff.



Great comment, this applies to life in general.

Quote Barry Garlow:


I actually have a couple of tunes tha i've kept from this forum when they used to have a dedicated section for members' music. They pop up on random sometimes next to some of my favourite tunes and i enjoy them as much.



I remember that I was very impressed and inspired by some of those tracks.

Quote Barry Garlow:


If people don't like it do something else? Nope, if people don't like it, find different people. Like what the Beatles did. There are loads of artists chasing trends around and deconstructing the formula of the latest hit, trying to mimic the sound, sampling, beat detecting and the rest. Its why we have so much crap around.

Go our own way, you'll know when you have something that you want to unleash on the world and when you do you want care what anyone thinks.



A++

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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tonemangler
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Re: protecting your art new [Re: Frisonic]
      #1090379 - 24/02/14 12:18 AM
Quote Frisonic:

Quote tonemangler:

[I feel that the "art" that I create, if worthy, should be shared with the world.

Paul




For many years I was bullied, mostly by art school types to 'share' my work. It was a duty they said. It is an essential part of the creative process. You give something to an audience and it responds to you, and so the virtuous cycle goes. These days I have an somewhat extraordinary father in law, now well into his 80s. Putting his childhood aside (sold to gypsies aged 4 as a slave by his prostitute mother in 1930's communist Hungary). He ended up being the fist non Russian ever to train at the Kirov and he and his partner/1st wife became the biggest ballet stars in the eastern bloc during the first years of the 1950s. Had to dance for Stalin etc. 21 years old and he had it all. The fabulous apartment on the Danube, the chauffeured Zil, the invitation to 'join the Party' (he never did). But they wanted the world, so they rather famously and riskily defected while performing in Berlin in '53. Sure enough they became the biggest ballet stars in the world for a while. It was a bit weird at first because of course western audiences had never seen the giant Russian leaps before. What they were doing was not exactly in the 'French school'! The critics accused them of using cheap acrobatics and trampolines off stage etc. But they paved the way for Nureyev, danced in Hollywood with Ginger Rodgers. The CIA even made a propaganda film using them when they became American citizens (Leap Through The Curtain)! The whole dream. So in say about '56 they were doing opera houses in places like Rio de Janeiro and banking around $1,500 a night. Serious money in those days.

One day I asked him. You have been a great star and a great artist. World renowned in your time. Acknowledged as a master and a pioneer. So tell me, how did you feel the response from your audience? How did you get your feedback? How did you know you were getting through? Now, we were on a train from Pen Station to Long island and to be honest he was quite drunk at the time. But I have never forgotten his reply: "Cabbages". "What"? I said. "The audience were a sea of cabbage heads. Those people didn't understand even 10% of what I was doing. Not technically. They were there because they thought it was a smart place to be. To me they were nothing more than a field of cabbages, like the ones I had to pick as a small boy. We did our show and put the money in the bank". They loved him for it. Still do.

That day was an education. One that apparently one doesn't generally get in a British Art school these days. And if the money was coming in I'd do exactly the same. But it isn't. It isn't ever going to. I even rejected the possibility (I did have an opportunity to try my luck at 'making it' as a kid in the early 80s - but declined). I decided a long time ago that I didn't want the responsibility of needing to appreciate an audience that I didn't really trust. And that's why I protect my work by keeping it hidden.

If you are going to share then the easiest way to copywrite, as has already been suggested, is simply to publish. Its the cheapest, easiest thing to do these days. And good luck with that!




Great story, sounds like a movie script. My niece is a professional dancer I will relay this story to her. I just wonder if amongst all those cabbage heads a few actually did get it. And if none did were there at least some who were emotionally moved by his performance. The average music listener may not get the true meaning of a song or it's technical structure, but can be moved emotionally because it speaks to them in a different way. I wouldn't concern myself with the thousands of people who hate and criticize my music, but the thought of the 100's who loved it would put wind in my sails to create more.

I understand your reasons for keeping your work hidden, and I respect your conviction. If you have kids you can pass that part of your life to them and they would feel close to you forever.

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
Posts: 3511
Loc: London, United Kingdom
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090383 - 24/02/14 12:46 AM
Quote tone mangler:

If you have kids you can pass that part of your life to them and they would feel close to you forever.




I'm like Dolly Parton, me. My songs are my children! That's why I protect them so passionately.

For your nice's interest Istvan prefers not to have a wikipedia page (we do understand one another) but I see Nora Kovach, his late first wife and famous dancing partner does. What a pair of drama queens they were, even managing to be on board the Italian liner SS Andrea Doria in 1956 when it collided with the MS Stockholm, and the terrible mass loss of life. She really was something else, was Nora. Even in her 70s when I knew her. I've met more than a few 'stars' in my time but nobody who could light up a room like her, except possibly Carla Bruni when she was the First Lady of France. There were plenty of people who did get what Istvan and Nora were doing of course, but mostly behind the curtain and Istvan would have had a far less complicated life had he reframed from trying to marry all of them. I on the other hand, had he not, would not be married to my current wife. So I forgive him everything!

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Strictly project and just for fun


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
Posts: 3386
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090410 - 24/02/14 10:34 AM
Quote tonemangler:

Dolly Parton said her songs are like her children, which is absurd to the average person, but I totally get this.




You shouldn't hide your children from the world, its not good for them!
Quote:


However I feel that the "art" that I create, if worthy, should be shared with the world. My love is in the process of creation. I rarely listen to previous works, I'm too anxious to start the next one. My problem is that I'm a perfectionist and until my songs sound in the real world close to the way they sound in my head I will continue sharing with only friends and family.



The problem with friends and family is that they care about you and your feelings. If you say how much your songs mean to you they would never say anything negative or give you constructive criticism about them.

Obviously it depends what you want. For me personally, when I was at the stage where I would like to hoard all my songs and was reluctant to share I had similar feelings. A strange mixture of self doubt and a need to protect myself from outside criticism and also a belief that my songs had some magical artistic value.

I think when you are more confident in your music you don't really have the same fear about showing them to the world. You just need people that you can trust to talk to. It helps a lot to get good feedback and ultimately makes you a much better musician.


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tonemangler
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Re: protecting your art new [Re: johnny h]
      #1090455 - 24/02/14 03:34 PM
Quote johnny h:

Quote tonemangler:

Dolly Parton said her songs are like her children, which is absurd to the average person, but I totally get this.




You shouldn't hide your children from the world, its not good for them!




Yes but it's a natural instinct for a parent to protect their children, eventually you must let go and let them fend for themselves.

Quote johnny h:

Quote tonemangler:

However I feel that the "art" that I create, if worthy, should be shared with the world. My love is in the process of creation. I rarely listen to previous works, I'm too anxious to start the next one. My problem is that I'm a perfectionist and until my songs sound in the real world close to the way they sound in my head I will continue sharing with only friends and family.



The problem with friends and family is that they care about you and your feelings. If you say how much your songs mean to you they would never say anything negative or give you constructive criticism about them.



You don't know my family..just kidding. I've learned to gauge their reaction, a simple "that's good" or "nice work" means it sucks, but if there is some emotional reaction I know I'm onto something.

Quote johnny h:

Obviously it depends what you want. For me personally, when I was at the stage where I would like to hoard all my songs and was reluctant to share I had similar feelings. A strange mixture of self doubt and a need to protect myself from outside criticism and also a belief that my songs had some magical artistic value.



Nail on the head.

Quote johnny h:

I think when you are more confident in your music you don't really have the same fear about showing them to the world. You just need people that you can trust to talk to. It helps a lot to get good feedback and ultimately makes you a much better musician.



I look forward to one day posting my tracks, when they are ready, TO THE WORLD (Where probably no one will hear them )

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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Frank Rideau



Joined: 21/03/11
Posts: 205
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090491 - 24/02/14 06:15 PM
For me it sounds the reason not to share your (either you or your friend) music because of the fear of getting ripped off is just an excuse to admit the real reason which is the fear of people's opinions to your music.

It's basically just illogical to approach your artistic evolution like this, I mean just put your music out there on Soundcloud, disable the download option and start building your contact and community by sharing it to the most people you can.

Like what thousands of people are doing because we are today living in 2014 not 1980.

Without any doubt, you will received passably good comments (the usual "nice song" "great track" "dope [ ****** ] man", etc.), whatever the level of your music, because, on place like Soundcloud, people are themselve acting with sensibilities, because they are actually commenting other's music with the hidden goal of receiveing comment to their own. The internet community is a "scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" world. Follow me, I'll follow you back. Comment me, I'll comment you. Like me, I'll like you. Piss me off, I'll piss you off.

But out of this predictible pattern, you should connect with people that will really care to connect with you further than the "like me-I'll like you" exchange. These people will be your first pay off, getting you into collaborations, live booking, help in the studio or the tracking of your songs, connection with labels, etc...

The fear of being ripped off is a bad connection into your brain. Let's be 2014 and take opportunity of this world. I lived in the day of demo cassette trading and paper fanzines to share your music at the speed of postal letters exchanges once per 3 months. I can beleive today I can talk instantely with someone in Japan and asking him to re-amp me a track with the analog synth I don't have in my studio, just to say one example.

Do it.


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tonemangler
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Re: protecting your art new [Re: Frank Rideau]
      #1090533 - 24/02/14 11:48 PM
Quote Frank Rideau:

For me it sounds the reason not to share your (either you or your friend) music because of the fear of getting ripped off is just an excuse to admit the real reason which is the fear of people's opinions to your music.



I really don't have a fear of criticism. Music is subjective, what one person loves another hates. The real question in this thread is whether in this day and age it is necessary to protect your music via a copyright. Some posters think you should take steps to protect your material, others like yourself feel it's unnecessary, and some feel the best form of protection is not to share at all. Right now my music is not ready to be shared online, but when it is I will take some steps to protect it before I upload.

Quote Frank Rideau:

Without any doubt, you will received passably good comments (the usual "nice song" "great track" "dope [ ****** ] man", etc.), whatever the level of your music, because, on place like Soundcloud, people are themselve acting with sensibilities, because they are actually commenting other's music with the hidden goal of receiveing comment to their own. The internet community is a "scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" world. Follow me, I'll follow you back. Comment me, I'll comment you. Like me, I'll like you. Piss me off, I'll piss you off.



Fellow songwriters, musicians, studio owners also give constructive criticism which help you grow in your craft. However the average music listener will just like your song or not, which if you want commercial success is the target audience anyway.

Quote Frank Rideau:

But out of this predictible pattern, you should connect with people that will really care to connect with you further than the "like me-I'll like you" exchange. These people will be your first pay off, getting you into collaborations, live booking, help in the studio or the tracking of your songs, connection with labels, etc...



I agree but what's wrong with protecting your music before uploading it?

Quote Rideau:

The fear of being ripped off is a bad connection into your brain. Let's be 2014 and take opportunity of this world. I lived in the day of demo cassette trading and paper fanzines to share your music at the speed of postal letters exchanges once per 3 months. I can beleive today I can talk instantely with someone in Japan and asking him to re-amp me a track with the analog synth I don't have in my studio, just to say one example.



With great opportunity comes danger, and to just ignore it and start posting your music with reckless abandon could come back to bite you. I know the chances are slim, but it's the same as buying insurance while hoping you never have to use it. I have a good friend who I collaborate with occasionally and it's great, I've learned a lot from that process, but I trust him and we have an understanding when it comes to credits. The thought of collaborating and accessing the immense talent online is exciting, I'm sure most are honest people with integrity but some are not, I've met this type.

Quote Frank Rideau:

Do it.




I will...eventually

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090543 - 25/02/14 01:29 AM
Quote tonemangler:

The real question in this thread is whether in this day and age it is necessary to protect your music via a copyright.



Technically, you have copyright the moment you create the work (or it's finished). However, it is very difficult to 'protect' that copyright if you put it out there. Recording your song(s) to CD, whatever, and posting it/them to yourself, recorded delivery, might help but that whole thing is largely a myth.

Date stamping by SoundCloud, whatever, is no guarantee either - I could record some track from SoundCloud from five years ago right now and the date stamp four my rip off would be today.

It's nothing new ...

Back in the day, we sent tapes or cassettes to record companies - many's the time less principled A&R people would give/play those demos to their acts or songwriters to nick ideas. Then they became a bit more principled (or rather, scared of litigation) and basically just threw any cassette in the bin for fear of being sued in case some riff or whatever vaguely resembled some demo tape they received.

There's no getting over it ... if you put your stuff out there, there is a chance it could be ripped off - it's a chance you have to take if you want to promote your music. It's ever been thus.

Copyright came into existence with the advent of Guttenberg's printing press - all of a sudden, it was possible to run off no end of manuscripts which previously would have required tedious hand scoring so composers Thomas Tallis and William Byrd proposed the concept which became manifest in 1710 in the 'Statute Of (queen) Anne' and has remained pretty much since. It's pretty simple too - you can't take someone else's work and pass it off as your own. Of course, in this day and age, not so easy to enforce (without the expense of a potential court case). Unless Poofy Daddy or DJ Jizzy Tissue, whoever, have a worldwide hit from lifting/sampling, you may be quids in. The chances of - if we're being realistic - are unlikely.

When all's said and done, it all depends on where you're heading with your 'art' - for your own (and your family's) enjoyment or for greater success, perhaps? If the former, keep it to yourself otherwise get it out there and let people hear it. Who knows what might transpire? But frankly, if you are lucky, being realistic, you may get a few hundred listens and a handful of 'likes'. And yes - maybe some tossers will rip it off and they'll maybe get a few hundred listens and a handful of 'likes'.

Your call though.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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tonemangler
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Re: protecting your art new [Re: hollowsun]
      #1090552 - 25/02/14 03:51 AM
Quote hollowsun:


Recording your song(s) to CD, whatever, and posting it/them to yourself, recorded delivery, might help but that whole thing is largely a myth.



I see you said might and not won't. If there is a chance it would work, however slim, why not at least try. Funny though it reminds me of a scene in Dumb and Dumber where Jim Carrey's character Lloyd asks the beautiful girl what chance he has of being with her. She answers "a million to one" and he responds "so I still have a chance".

Quote hollowsun:

Date stamping by SoundCloud, whatever, is no guarantee either - I could record some track from SoundCloud from five years ago right now and the date stamp four my rip off would be today.



True, but if your version of the song becomes an international hit and you reap fame and fortune from it couldn't the person who posted the song 5 years earlier prove ownership of that song before you?

Quote hollowsun:

It's pretty simple too - you can't take someone else's work and pass it off as your own. Of course, in this day and age, not so easy to enforce (without the expense of a potential court case).



With the thousands upon thousands of people making and posting music it's a shame that there isn't a service that charges a fee or membership and sorts out ownership when you upload your music, something like group insurance. Barry Garlow mentioned this in a previous post:
Quote Barry Garlow:

What might be a good idea is to get yourself a CD together and use one of the aggregators like CDBaby (there are others), you send a CD, get the thing barcoded up and they do the distribution to the download and streaming sites and keep a copy of your CD in the archives.



This sounds like the next best thing maybe.

It seems to me that the majority of people believe that protecting music before uploading is somewhat futile because the chance of theft is practically none. Furthermore the probability of a significant amount of people even listening to your work is small. Finally, if for chance you are the one in a million who does get your song ripped off, the court costs and lawyers would crush you like an ant. So why bother? I guess because I could be the one in a gazillion. (and get the beautiful girl too )

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
Posts: 3386
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090559 - 25/02/14 07:28 AM
Quote tonemangler:


Quote Barry Garlow:

What might be a good idea is to get yourself a CD together and use one of the aggregators like CDBaby (there are others), you send a CD, get the thing barcoded up and they do the distribution to the download and streaming sites and keep a copy of your CD in the archives.



This sounds like the next best thing maybe.

It seems to me that the majority of people believe that protecting music before uploading is somewhat futile because the chance of theft is practically none. Furthermore the probability of a significant amount of people even listening to your work is small. Finally, if for chance you are the one in a million who does get your song ripped off, the court costs and lawyers would crush you like an ant. So why bother? I guess because I could be the one in a gazillion. (and get the beautiful girl too )



Stop justifying your weaknesses. If you put your music up and people like it then that's very good for you. I know someone who put their music up online and got signed to a good label and then was resampled by a *very* famous rapper on a platinum album last year. This is a very rare event but it happened, and believe me, he has been extremely well compensated financially and artistically.


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tonemangler
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Re: protecting your art new [Re: johnny h]
      #1090608 - 25/02/14 12:59 PM
Quote johnny h:

Quote tonemangler:


Quote Barry Garlow:

What might be a good idea is to get yourself a CD together and use one of the aggregators like CDBaby (there are others), you send a CD, get the thing barcoded up and they do the distribution to the download and streaming sites and keep a copy of your CD in the archives.



This sounds like the next best thing maybe.

It seems to me that the majority of people believe that protecting music before uploading is somewhat futile because the chance of theft is practically none. Furthermore the probability of a significant amount of people even listening to your work is small. Finally, if for chance you are the one in a million who does get your song ripped off, the court costs and lawyers would crush you like an ant. So why bother? I guess because I could be the one in a gazillion. (and get the beautiful girl too )



Stop justifying your weaknesses.



?????? Sorry I don't get this. Your comment is in response to a quote of mine regarding an alternative to copyright, and to an observation that most people on this forum don't feel it necessary to bother with any measure of copyright anyways. If your comment refers to me being pragmatic by trying to minimize the risk of not being compensated should I fall victim to stolen property, then I guess I'm justifying my weaknesses?

Quote johnny h:

I know someone who put their music up online and got signed to a good label and then was resampled by a *very* famous rapper on a platinum album last year. This is a very rare event but it happened, and believe me, he has been extremely well compensated financially and artistically.



Great, so it can happen, though it's rare. Fantastic that he was signed and compensated. I wonder if there are similar stories with a different ending though. My guess is that there are.

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
Posts: 3386
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090612 - 25/02/14 01:17 PM
Quote tonemangler:


?????? Sorry I don't get this. Your comment is in response to a quote of mine regarding an alternative to copyright, and to an observation that most people on this forum don't feel it necessary to bother with any measure of copyright anyways. If your comment refers to me being pragmatic by trying to minimize the risk of not being compensated should I fall victim to stolen property, then I guess I'm justifying my weaknesses?




Yes, because the chances of being ripped off are zero whereas the chances of someone caring about your music at all are simply next to zero.
johnny h Quote:


Quote johnny h:

I know someone who put their music up online and got signed to a good label and then was resampled by a *very* famous rapper on a platinum album last year. This is a very rare event but it happened, and believe me, he has been extremely well compensated financially and artistically.



Great, so it can happen, though it's rare. Fantastic that he was signed and compensated. I wonder if there are similar stories with a different ending though. My guess is that there are.



The most common story goes like this...

Someone uploads a track on soundcloud and posts a link from their Facebook page. Two people comment. "Well done","great track!"

And that's the end of the story.


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tonemangler
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Re: protecting your art new [Re: johnny h]
      #1090644 - 25/02/14 03:16 PM
Quote johnny h:


Yes, because the chances of being ripped off are zero



I assume this is a statement is based on fact.

Quote johnny h:

whereas the chances of someone caring about your music at all are simply next to zero.



Then why do thousands of people bother uploading their music?

Quote johnny h:

The most common story goes like this...

Someone uploads a track on soundcloud and posts a link from their Facebook page. Two people comment. "Well done","great track!"

And that's the end of the story.



Funny you didn't say "the only story goes like this..."

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
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Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1090660 - 25/02/14 04:01 PM
Quote tonemangler:

Quote johnny h:


Yes, because the chances of being ripped off are zero



I assume this is a statement is based on fact.




Assumption is a dangerous business.
johnny h Quote:


Quote johnny h:

whereas the chances of someone caring about your music at all are simply next to zero.



Then why do thousands of people bother uploading their music?




Not thousands, millions. There's a lot of dreamers out there.
johnny h Quote:


Quote johnny h:

The most common story goes like this...

Someone uploads a track on soundcloud and posts a link from their Facebook page. Two people comment. "Well done","great track!"

And that's the end of the story.



Funny you didn't say "the only story goes like this..."



Well I told you about my friend's great success story but that didn't seem to impress you very much either. Perhaps the safest course of action is inaction.


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tonemangler
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Re: protecting your art new [Re: johnny h]
      #1090701 - 25/02/14 09:06 PM
Quote johnny h:


Well I told you about my friend's great success story but that didn't seem to impress you very much either. Perhaps the safest course of action is inaction.



You're wrong about this, I was very impressed, maybe you thought I was being sarcastic but I wasn't. I love hearing success stories, it gives us all hope. BTW many successful people started out with a dream.

My action will be to protect my intellectual property by some manner before I post my music.

All the best,

Paul

--------------------
"I'm hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield on the freeway." Peter Gabriel


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CS70



Joined: 26/11/12
Posts: 402
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Re: protecting your art new [Re: johnny h]
      #1090718 - 26/02/14 12:57 AM
Quote johnny h:

I know someone who put their music up online and got signed to a good label and then was resampled by a *very* famous rapper on a platinum album last year.




It sounds like a good epitaph: "he was resampled by a *very* famous rapper"



--------------------
http://www.silver-spoon.org - It's just music
..and the FB page


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
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Re: protecting your art new [Re: CS70]
      #1090791 - 26/02/14 02:15 PM
Quote CS70:

Quote johnny h:

I know someone who put their music up online and got signed to a good label and then was resampled by a *very* famous rapper on a platinum album last year.




It sounds like a good epitaph: "he was resampled by a *very* famous rapper"





He's doing just fine in his own career. The sampling thing is just a massive financial windfall (and something to mention in his press releases).


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CS70



Joined: 26/11/12
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Re: protecting your art new [Re: hollowsun]
      #1090874 - 26/02/14 08:16 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Date stamping by SoundCloud, whatever, is no guarantee either - I could record some track from SoundCloud from five years ago right now and the date stamp four my rip off would be today.




That's not the point. If there were reason for litigation, a court of law would have the option to directly compare the five years old track to today's rip off - which by virtue of being a rip off, would sound enough similar to justify the claim. Soundcloud or similar services act as independent parties, a sort of clearing house. Of course the ripper could bribe (or just a good friend of) Soundcloud but given the scope and size of these services, and the lack of interest in favoring one party - that is unlikely.

In any business confrontation, there are never guarantees, only a solid or less solid basis for initiating (and winning) a litigation. For example what is a "rip off" may be less obvious than it looks (which is why copyright-specialized lawyers exist).

Still, the whole point is that - from a commercial success point of view - your best bet is to have your music out there - possibly in such a service. If other points of view are more important, it's another matter altogether.

--------------------
http://www.silver-spoon.org - It's just music
..and the FB page


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djames123



Joined: 04/07/12
Posts: 7
Re: protecting your art new [Re: tonemangler]
      #1104440 - 22/05/14 06:29 PM
I found some really good music contracts to use for all types of roles in the music industry if this helps?

...and was spam, so I deleted the link MW

Seven links advertising the same book!!

Edited by Martin Walker (22/05/14 07:58 PM)


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