Mash
Joined: 31/08/04
Posts: 653
Loc: Shoreditch, London
|
|
Hi all, I was contacted by the production company a few months back about composing the
music for the second series of the documentary but their budget put me out of the picture
so had to decline, so was quite surprised to hear music from the first series re-edited to
fit the new one! The first contract was a buy-out so does this mean they're ok to use it
for subsequent series of the programme?
Many thanks,
Mash 
--------------------
New Facebook Music Page
|
tonally_confused
Joined: 13/07/06
Posts: 4
Loc: London
|
|
Hi Mash,
I'd be interested to know more about this also - I've definitely seen
wording on one of my contracts to the effect of - we can use this music in context with
the programme or any offshoot of the programme - so in this case they'd be fine to use
it.
I suspect in a lot of cases it's a complete buyout for any use - some
companies have their own publishing arms and even try and exploit that music in music
libraries, so obviously a complete buyout would be necessary.
I always wonder
about the wording and meaning of 'the sound master' and to what degree you can do a little
tweak and reclaim that music as your own?
Cheers
Rich
|
BenLD
Joined: 08/06/05
Posts: 142
Loc: Newbury
|
|
If they own the publishing (which is what I take 'complete buyout' to mean) they can
usually do pretty much whatever they want with it, including license it to other people to
use in their programmes
Sometimes I've seen clauses like along the lines of
'music can be re-edited, set to new lyrics etc etc with composer's permission', but also
'such permission not to be unreasonably withheld'
Personally I wouldn't
complain about it - re-use/ secondary exploitation is the best way to make money in this
business - zero extra work for you, bigger PRS payments further down the line - much
better outcome than them getting someone else in to write music for the programme. And you
can get on with finding new clients/working on new projects etc. It's the gift that goes
on giving as far as I'm concerned!
Cheers
Ben
--------------------
The large print giveth and the small print taketh away
|
Aliweasel
Joined: 31/03/06
Posts: 481
Loc: London
|
|
Quote BenLD:
Personally I
wouldn't complain about it - re-use/ secondary exploitation is the best way to make money
in this business - zero extra work for you, bigger PRS payments further down the line -
much better outcome than them getting someone else in to write music for the programme.
And you can get on with finding new clients/working on new projects etc. It's the gift
that goes on giving as far as I'm concerned!
I think the OP is implying that he's only been paid a fee for
the first series and that the producers are getting an extra season's worth of music for
free by tweaking his work. He's not, as far as I can tell, getting any money for the use
of his music in the second series.
Mash can you clarify?
--------------------
P4 3.2 GHz, 2GB, Pro Tools LE 6.9 & Mbox 1, Cubase 4 & Focusrite Saffire Pro 26, Rokit KRK RP6s, Novation KS5
|
BenLD
Joined: 08/06/05
Posts: 142
Loc: Newbury
|
|
Quote Aliweasel:
Quote BenLD:
Personally I
wouldn't complain about it - re-use/ secondary exploitation is the best way to make money
in this business - zero extra work for you, bigger PRS payments further down the line -
much better outcome than them getting someone else in to write music for the programme.
And you can get on with finding new clients/working on new projects etc. It's the gift
that goes on giving as far as I'm concerned!
I think the OP is implying that he's only been paid a fee for the
first series and that the producers are getting an extra season's worth of music for free
by tweaking his work. He's not, as far as I can tell, getting any money for the use of his
music in the second series.
Mash can you clarify?
You get the money from the PRS not from the
producers - and the way fees are going at the moment (rapidly downwards), most composers
make more money from PRS than from commissioning fees - if we didn't we probably couldn't
keep going...
The only downer is if the documentary is only being shown on a
digital channel, in which case the royalties are likely to be low to zero
Ben
--------------------
The large print giveth and the small print taketh away
|
feline1
active member
Joined: 23/06/03
Posts: 1879
Loc: Brighton, UK
|
|
Yeah PRS tell us that,
but since ALL television channels are now (or very soon will
be) entirely digital, I can't really see how they can still insist that nobody watches TV
any more and it doesn't generate any royalties.
In actual fact, most households in
the UK now pay a cable or satellite TV provider a subscription fee AS WELL as paying for a
TV license, so there ought to be MORE revenue to collect.
--------------------
~~~ www.feline1.co.uk ~~~
|
narcoman
active member
Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 4779
|
|
check your contract. Sounds like you did "work for hire" rather that "buyout". Buyout is
single fee but you retain ownership.
|
Mash
Joined: 31/08/04
Posts: 653
Loc: Shoreditch, London
|
|
Thankyou so much for all your replies, have dug out the contract and will give it a look
through when I get half a sec, see if I can make any sense of it...and update the thread.
For the record it's 8+ hours of terrestrial programming and the only point I was contacted
by the production company was their enquiring to whether I could compose for the new
series.
Cheers again,
Mash
--------------------
New Facebook Music Page
|
Oops!
Joined: 31/08/05
Posts: 1050
|
|
Have you tried the pcam hotline? they're quite helpful.
|
Commander
Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3616
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
|
|
Check your contract, but it would be my understanding that if you composed the first
series and accepted a buyout then they are perfectly at liberty to use your music for all
eternity. Of course you will still get the PRS.
Not sure how you stand with
MCPS though as there might be another sync fee involved here.
--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ... 
|
reid
Joined: 15/02/05
Posts: 1633
|
|
Is the production company attached to a publisher Mash? If not and your contract is based
on the 'standard' PACT composers agreement for TV, then I'd say they're royally taking the
piss. There's two London production companies I regularly do docos with who use the PACT
agreement - there's never been any question of them not paying a re-use fee for music
composed for other / previous series. Actual amounts vary - between 20-30% of original fee
for free reign across the entire body of music for a series, to roughly 65% of MCPS
library rates on single tracks.
The notion that you should just be glad for
the possibility of secondary use performance royalties is entirely missing the point I
think.
Edited by Hugh Robjohns (07/11/09 09:41 AM)
|
Commander
Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3616
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
|
|
Post deleted by Hugh Robjohns
--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...
|
shirkethic
Joined: 07/03/06
Posts: 244
|
|
Post deleted by Hugh Robjohns
--------------------
------------------
www.synesthesia.net
|
Commander
Joined: 21/03/05
Posts: 3616
Loc: Marineville HQ (W.A.S.P.)
|
|
Post deleted by Hugh Robjohns
--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...
|
Hugh Robjohns
SOS Technical Editor
Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 10746
Loc: Worcestershire
|
|
Ahem! Come on guys. This is a public site with a wide age range of users. Let's try and
keep it moderately decent please.
hugh
--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound
|
The Southern Baptist
Joined: 28/10/05
Posts: 463
|
|
Thanks to your vigilance I didn't get to read whatever terrible things that bloody drummer
said, thank god!
Well done Hugh for keeping things on the ol' straight'n'narrow
round here.
I don't mean to seem at all licky, but something has to be done
about him and it's good that you have the plums for the job.
|
blue manga
Joined: 16/09/06
Posts: 1390
|
|
Quote The Southern Baptist:
I don't mean to seem at all licky, but something has to be done about him and it's good
that you have the plums for the job.
+1 agreed.
Edited by Hugh Robjohns (07/11/09 06:14 PM)
|
Hugh Robjohns
SOS Technical Editor
Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 10746
Loc: Worcestershire
|
|
 Very funny...
...but seriously, it would be better to avoid the
need for heavier moderation around here. Please take the hint.
Hugh
--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound
|
reid
Joined: 15/02/05
Posts: 1633
|
|
Hint taken. Apologies for lowering the tone - I'll shuffle off now.
|
Rodmps
Joined: 22/12/05
Posts: 11
|
|
But do you really need to run around smacking the boys knuckles with a ruler every time
they act up?
There may be some younger people who look at this forum from time
to time. Maybe. But I doubt that they are going to see much of anything on this forum that
is more shocking than they hear at school.
A bit heavy handed around here if
you ask me and I am one of your ever shrinking number of subscribers.
Rod F-ing
Mitchell
USA
|
The Southern Baptist
Joined: 28/10/05
Posts: 463
|
|
Like i said, something's got to be done about him, Rod. Running around here giving advice
to people willy-nilly. It's just not on.
|
Hugh Robjohns
SOS Technical Editor
Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 10746
Loc: Worcestershire
|
|
Quote Rodmps:
But do you really
need to run around smacking the boys knuckles with a ruler every time they act up?
It's annoying and frustrating
isn't it? -- and for all of us, users and moderators alike. I wish it wasn't necessary...
and to be fair, most of the time it isn't. There have been around 3500 posts this month
and we've had to moderate less than ten.
However, this website is a clearly
branded part of Sound On Sound's range of publications, and as such it is important to our
'brand' that we maintain a certain standard of quality and decency in everything
associated with the company. And frankly, I don't think that is unreasonable.
We provide this forum for free and we aim for this site to be a friendly, supportive,
and helpful place where people can enjoy the virtual company of others in discussing
music-related topics, and I think for the most part we do achieve that. The vast majority
of users respect the rules and post constructive, helpful, accurate and interesting
threads.
However, being realistic there are always going to be a few
occasions where people get carried away and forget where they are posting. When that
happens, blatently inappropriate posts obviously need to be addressed in some way.
Generally, we try to cut as much slack as possible if it is clearly intended to be
humourous and not a malicious thing, and we often moderate 'behind the scenes' where
possible -- although visible moderation also clearly acts as a useful reminder and a
deterent to all. As here.
There are also occasional visitors who set out to
cause deliberate trouble and they are obviously dealt with in an appropriate way too.
Compared to most websites, we are extremely lucky here and the level of moderation is very
low most of the time.
Quote:
There may be some younger people who look at this forum from time
to time. Maybe. But I doubt that they are going to see much of anything on this forum that
is more shocking than they hear at school.
I agree entirely. But equally I'm sure teachers at school
would expect a certain standard of behaviour in their classrooms too. This is no
different.
Quote:
A
bit heavy handed around here if you ask me
I do appreciate your feedback. Moderation in this thread was
prompted by a specific complaint from a regular forum user (on your side of the 'pond' as
it happens) and I felt his complaint was a valid one and acted to remove the inappropriate
posts.
Quote:
I am
one of your ever shrinking number of subscribers.
Whatever gave you the idea we had a shrinking number of
subscribers? There have been 389 new forum users signed up in the last month alone.
We are now clearly drifting away from the thread topic, but I felt it might be
helpful to explain the reason for the action I have taken here.
If anyone
has comments they'd like to share on this topic then can I ask that they either use the
forum feedback section or email me personally. I think the OP's original question has been
answered already, so I'm locking this thread to avoid further off-topic excurions. More
heavy handed moderation...
hugh
--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound
|
Gear Reviews
Previous
Topics
Next
Threaded
Music composed for documentry used for second series without permission?
Edit
Reply
Quote
[Re: 
