Hey guys,

I've had a number of clients come to me recently asking to get that 'Rhianna sound' or that 'Adele sound'. What I don't think they're getting is that the mastering engineer can't really do that. All that he/she can do is enhance what is already there albeit in a powerful way.

We are like a car wash really, we can get a shining glean but if underneath it's an F-reg Fiesta it's still going to look crap. To be sure, mastering is an important part of the music business and vastly overlooked unless you get to the higher echelons of the commercial sector.

In summary, what composers do wrong in my opinion is to write pieces of music with no perception of how this is going to sound AFTER the mastering process. In order to get better results, writers should leave 'some in the tank' so that the mastering engineer can do the 'final push'. The glean will be all the more impressive because we have more to work with.

So, back to the title of the post.

It's very much like ordering a coffee at Starbucks really, where they always ask if you want to leave room for milk. If you say 'yes' they always (and are trained to do so) leave approx. 1 inch from the top of the mug.

In audio terms, this sonic 'inch' could perhaps be the most important inch of your musical career.

A more sympathetic and informed view of the mastering process should be encouraged by all serious musicians.

Cheers,

Dave

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AwesomeMastering.com - Hearing IS believing!

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (14/05/12 02:58 PM)

Yup.

Sounds very interesting and I think I have some idea of what you're getting at (presumably *not* a case of just leaving a few dBs of headroom on the final mix) - but could you please say a bit more about what you mean by leaving the 'final inch' for the ME to work on, especially if it starts right back at the songwriting stage?

Thanks,

Quote AwesomeMastering.com:

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I've had a number of clients come to me recently asking to get that 'Rhianna sound' or that 'Adele sound'.

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...I think you're missing the rather more fundamental problem: That Rhianna and Adele are [ ****** ], and anyone who wants to sound identical to them shouldn't be making music in the first place.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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...I think you're missing the rather more fundamental problem: That Rhianna and Adele are [ ****** ], and anyone who wants to sound identical to them shouldn't be making music in the first place.

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I don't know about Rihanna, but someone who has won 6 Grammys in a year (the most any female artist has ever won), had a 15-times platinum certified 2nd album, been the first person since The Beatles in 1964 to have two top-five hits in the Singles and Albums chart simultaneously, and smashed records in Billboard history as well as the UK charts, must be doing something right! You personally might not like her music, but you have to admit that Adele is hugely successful, and it's little wonder other people want to sound like her (so they can attempt to get even a little bit of her success). The Beatles were hugely successful and inspired other bands to go after a particular sound, and now it's happening with Adele. So I hardly think you are in a position to pour scornful judgment on her. Jealous, perhaps?

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SOS Web Editor, Support & Social Media
Friend SOS on Facebook | Follow SOS on Twitter

Quote Jennifer Jones:

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The Beatles were hugely successful and inspired other bands to go after a particular sound, and now it's happening with Adele.

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Oh dear.

Quote Jennifer Jones:

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Jealous, perhaps?

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No, he has no need to be jealous with his income from the PRS ...it's just his bright and positive outlook on life showing through

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Jennifer Jones:

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Quote feline1:

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...I think you're missing the rather more fundamental problem: That Rhianna and Adele are [ ****** ], and anyone who wants to sound identical to them shouldn't be making music in the first place.

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I don't know about Rihanna, but someone who has won 6 Grammys in a year (the most any female artist has ever won), had a 15-times platinum certified 2nd album, been the first person since The Beatles in 1964 to have two top-five hits in the Singles and Albums chart simultaneously, and smashed records in Billboard history as well as the UK charts, must be doing something right! You personally might not like her music, but you have to admit that Adele is hugely successful, and it's little wonder other people want to sound like her (so they can attempt to get even a little bit of her success). The Beatles were hugely successful and inspired other bands to go after a particular sound, and now it's happening with Adele. So I hardly think you are in a position to pour scornful judgment on her. Jealous, perhaps?

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Grammys, millions in the bank, having adoring fans all over the world... Yeah who would want that?

They can probably even afford to get someone to collect their PRS money for them...

Quote blue manga:

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Quote Jennifer Jones:

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The Beatles were hugely successful and inspired other bands to go after a particular sound, and now it's happening with Adele.

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Oh dear.

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Fact is the Beatles did create a sound that many others tried to emulate, at least twice. And you can't write Adele off as a novelty act anymore. So given the extent of her success thus far she is very likely to be emulated by others too. Like it or not. That's what happens. Personally I don't feel strongly about it one way or another. I'm just interested.

The pertinent question to me is how much headroom to leave in the mix for the mastering engineer to do their best work AND still leave some space for some proper dynamics? Maybe the 'Starbucks inch and a half'? Because I think that's what Adele's production team are doing and audiences seem to be responding to it.

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Strictly project and just for fun

JJ, you need to hear Rihanna live in concert.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

What do you mean by the *writer* leaving something in the tank (as opposed to the engineer)?

I am not quite sure I comprehend the original post tbh, ultimately the mastering engineer wants the best mix possible irrelevant of anything other than it being clipped or limited, thats about it IMO. Most people who want to sound like any given artist are 80pct the way there in my experience. Some decent communications helps.

I do not listen to Rhianna and I think Adele has a great voice and some touching songs I cannot see why any singer would not want to aspire to a successful artist?

Quote:

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...I think you're missing the rather more fundamental problem: That Rhianna and Adele are [ ****** ], and anyone who wants to sound identical to them shouldn't be making music in the first place.

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It might not be your cup of tea artistically but it sure is successful and these ladies can sing.
It's pop music and it does what it says on the tin, nothing wrong at all with great pop music and thats just a taste issue about what is good and not so good.

SafeandSound Mastering
online mastering studio

Quote Jennifer Jones:

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I don't know about Rihanna, but someone who has won 6 Grammys in a year (the most any female artist has ever won), had a 15-times platinum certified 2nd album, been the first person since The Beatles in 1964 to have two top-five hits in the Singles and Albums chart simultaneously, and smashed records in Billboard history as well as the UK charts, must be doing something right!

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Yeah yeah yeah so she's hugely popular. So was Hitler. And cholera.

Brotherhood of Man sold more than the Sex Pistols too.

What shall we have for tea tonight - KFC? Or Big Mac? Mmmmmmm

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote SafeandSound Mastering:

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I am not quite sure I comprehend the original post tbh, ultimately the mastering engineer wants the best mix ..

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Excellent.

It's attack of the not so subtle Mastering service forum advertising ..

It's Safe & Sound Vs Awesome Mastering !

Who will win ? Nobody knows ..

In the mean time lets all prattle on about pop music and stuff..
- I still think there is more room for Feline1 to be told he's just jealous..
- and a few more ways in which we can compare Adele & Rihana to The Beatles..

Forget the Starbucks inch, if you want to make your singer sound like Rihanna or Adele it takes a hell of a lot more work than turning your faders down and sending it off to be mastered online!

You better make sure you have some supreme talent, great songwriting and innovative production, plus major label backing for the promotion.

How can Adele be like The Beatles? I mean, which bit of her is meant to be Ringo? /confused/

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Is it really that odd for a mastering engineer to respond to a post about mastering ?

SafeandSound Mastering
http://www.masteringmastering.co.uk

I have a whole thing of handbags in the back room...please form an orderly queue and I'll see you all again at first light

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No dog should ever be seen at the dining-room table.... unless absolutely certain that he can hold his own in the conversation.

Quote SafeandSound Mastering:

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Is it really that odd for a mastering engineer to respond to a post about mastering ?

SafeandSound Mastering
http://www.masteringmastering.co.uk

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It could be a double bluff!

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote spumph:

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I have a whole thing of handbags in the back room...please form an orderly queue and I'll see you all again at first light

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what the hell is going on in your avatar!!

Ain't you never been to an elephant trampolining party before?

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Some people huh?

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

The truth is, Rhiana, GaGa and Adele's sound is actually incredibly easy to replicate - boost the mids, intensify the top end and boost-edge the bass creating a powerful sheen etc. Limit to approx 0.03, maybe some vintage warmer too and nominal normalization...

The question is, SHOULD we make it easy for clients wanting this particular sound?

Surely the onus is on the integrity of the intrinsic mix? Whatever the demands, my philosophy is to leave it at least 10-15% short.

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AwesomeMastering.com - Hearing IS believing!

Quote AwesomeMastering.com:

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The truth is, Rhiana, GaGa and Adele's sound is actually incredibly easy to replicate - boost the mids, intensify the top end and boost-edge the bass creating a powerful sheen etc. Limit to approx 0.03, maybe some vintage warmer too and nominal normalization...

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That's ridiculous.

I mean, really.

You think you could get Rhiana, Gaga and Adele's sound that way if you had the source material? I don't want to be rude, but looking at the quality of your website, experience and training, I doubt you'll be getting the chance to find out anytime soon.

Quote johnny h:

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I don't want to be rude, but looking at the quality of your website, experience and training, I doubt you'll be getting the chance to find out anytime soon.

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If you didn't want to be rude John why were you! I simply say send me a track you want mastered and I will do it free of charge! You will change your opinion I assure youI I don't mind people criticising but try the goods first eh?!

As for the site, I'm a mastering engineer not a web designer! Lol

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AwesomeMastering.com - Hearing IS believing!

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (15/05/12 08:05 AM)

Quote AwesomeMastering.com:

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Quote johnny h:

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I don't want to be rude, but looking at the quality of your website, experience and training, I doubt you'll be getting the chance to find out anytime soon.

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If you didn't want to be rude John why were you!

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Simply because you really need a wake up call if you think vintage warmer is all you need to master a major label record!

Quote:

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I simply say send me a track you want mastered and I will do it free of charge! You will change your opinion I assure youI I don't mind people criticising but try the goods first eh?!

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Thanks for the offer, but after listening to your 'before and after' demo, I think you have some way to go in your development.

Quote:

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As for the site, I'm a mastering engineer not a web designer! Lol

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I'm not sure you are quite aware of the standard of competition in your chosen field. But assuming you can overcome all that, a bad website will put off many potential clients and places you firmly in the 'amateur' category.

Quote Zukan:

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JJ, you need to hear Rihanna live in concert.

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Eddie, you need to *see* Rihanna live in concert.



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I'm All Ears.

Quote johnny h:

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Quote AwesomeMastering.com:

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Quote johnny h:

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I don't want to be rude, but looking at the quality of your website, experience and training, I doubt you'll be getting the chance to find out anytime soon.

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If you didn't want to be rude John why were you!

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Simply because you really need a wake up call if you think vintage warmer is all you need to master a major label record!

Quote:

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I simply say send me a track you want mastered and I will do it free of charge! You will change your opinion I assure youI I don't mind people criticising but try the goods first eh?!

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Thanks for the offer, but after listening to your 'before and after' demo, I think you have some way to go in your development.

Quote:

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As for the site, I'm a mastering engineer not a web designer! Lol

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I'm not sure you are quite aware of the standard of competition in your chosen field. But assuming you can overcome all that, a bad website will put off many potential clients and places you firmly in the 'amateur' category.

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Like the tagline says John, 'hearing IS believing! Let us master a track for you before you jump to conclusions! What have you got to lose? It's a free offer!!

The 'after' example on the site is like that (heavily normalized) because the client (Don Swan) wanted it to sound like a 'gig in the Cavern'. Which I think we achieved and he was very happy with it.

And yes, I do need a wake up call - the plumber's coming round tomorow at 9! LOLs

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AwesomeMastering.com - Hearing IS believing!

Quote johnny h:

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Quote AwesomeMastering.com:

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Quote johnny h:

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I don't want to be rude, but looking at the quality of your website, experience and training, I doubt you'll be getting the chance to find out anytime soon.

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If you didn't want to be rude John why were you!

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Simply because you really need a wake up call if you think vintage warmer is all you need to master a major label record!

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Good and perceptive point Johnny.
I use this plug-in called L2.
It really gets that loudness without the obvious distortion of Vintage Warmer.
Then I often dither down to 12 bits.

There's much more to it, than I think the OP realizes.

Quote AwesomeMastering.com:

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The 'after' example on the site is like that (heavily normalized) because the client (Don Swan) wanted it to sound like a 'gig in the Cavern'. Which I think we achieved and he was very happy with it.

And yes, I do need a wake up call - the plumber's coming round tomorow at 9! LOLs

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Haha I get it now. Colin S!

Nice one, keep up the good work.

Quote johnny h:

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Quote AwesomeMastering.com:

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The 'after' example on the site is like that (heavily normalized) because the client (Don Swan) wanted it to sound like a 'gig in the Cavern'. Which I think we achieved and he was very happy with it.

And yes, I do need a wake up call - the plumber's coming round tomorow at 9! LOLs

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Haha I get it now. Colin S!

Nice one, keep up the good work.

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?

I give up.

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AwesomeMastering.com - Hearing IS believing!

Can Anyone explain the point/purpose of this thread? I had a horrible nightmare recently in which my mind was numbed into a coma. I could swear this thread was the cause

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Gear list: If you can't find it, grind it

Quote MadManDan:

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Can Anyone explain the point/purpose of this thread? I had a horrible nightmare recently in which my mind was numbed into a coma. I could swear this thread was the cause

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Hi Dan! Haha well sorry if I am responsible for your coma! Fortunately you seem to have been resuscitated!

The messages are simple:

A) When recording, leave a little bit in the tank so that the mastering engineer can work with pristine, organic data (hence the 'Starbucks inch' analogy). We make it loud so you don't have to! In fact, the quieter you make it, the better the overall quality of our maximization / dithering processes.

B) A mastering engineer CAN polish a turd, but - and it's a big but - a polished turd is still a turd, albeit a slightly less unappealing one.

In summary, mastering is an art form that is very much underrated in the amateur music making world and I think it was perhaps worth bringing this to the attention of various internet music forums. However, on here that seems to have been met with a degree of hostility (which is even more surprising given that I have offered to master someone's track for FREE!). It a shame but there you go.

I am currently compiling an article on mastering which I hope I can get published in SOS magazine. More on that in due course.

I think it was Bob Katz who said: "It's one thing being loud, it's another thing being louder..." and if you think about it, he's absolutely right.

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AwesomeMastering.com - Hearing IS believing!

An inch is too much!

I think we're done here now. PM sent. Thread locked.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound