Hi guys, I'd really appreciate some advice from some of you who have experienced a bit more than myself. I made a rash decision to jack in my A-levels (after getting AABC in my first year), and moved to Guildford to study a 1 year (CertHE) course in Music Production. (I won't name the place, but no doubt many of you will know where I mean). I was obviously aware that it was a non-academic course with very little job prospects, but I'd hoped by moving away I'd meet like-minded people, continue to write music, form and play in a band, start to build my production portfolio etc. Not to blame my bad experiences entirely on the college but in short, the course was awful. Poor standard teaching, lack of flexibility to use facilities, and they basically accept anyone that submits an application form and pays their money. (I knew this, but being quite a self motivated person I thought I could make the 'best of a bad situation' so to speak). I completed the course with a distinctions in 11 of the 12 modules, even completing the coursework that was meant to be carried out in a group of 7 by myself (the other people in the group didn't understand the complete basics even at the end of the year - i.e. how to use a desk, outboard gear, even which mics and mic placement). I made my feelings known to some of the lecturers and the college but I never received any feedback.

The only part of the course that I felt I gained some knowledge was the music business modules, although again it was very basic stuff and taught quite badly. I convinced myself that by taking the music business degree that the work would be more challenging than the basics taught on production and although the degree itself is pretty worthless, I could use the business knowledge to my advantage further down the line and possibly gain some industry experience, whilst producing/DJ'ing on the side (I mainly make electronic music now). I took the course and 8 months down the line, I've lost interest in the course and completely lost my faith in the college - this, in conjunction with the lack of music scene and opportunities and the limited like-minded people on my course has really hammered home that this is not the place for me. I've found internships off my own back at labels (I worked at an indie label and publisher for 8 months, had interviews for placements at Warner and Ministry of Sound), and achieved highly in my first year (3 1sts and a 2.1), but I'm still very uninspired by everything and feel I've ended up somewhere completely different to where I want to be, both in terms of uni and career path.

I've been putting off making a decision about my future for months now but I feel it is time to do what needs to be done. I'm faced with either sticking it out for another year and a bit (the degree is only 2 years long, make of that what you will), or attempting to transfer universities. Alternatively I could leave altogether but at this stage that doesn't seem the right thing to do after the money and time invested in 2 years of higher education. I want to transfer to the 2nd year of a Music Technology/Sound Technology/Production degree, provided they accept that my CertHE equates to the first year of a degree. I know these degrees on paper are just as useless to employers, but it's what I enjoy, what I've been interested in and it's a field I see myself working in provided I carve out the opportunities for myself. Would I be really naive in thinking moving to another university would give me a better standard of education, a more vibrant music scene, more opportunities to meet new friends and like minded people (like typical university life) and generally a better experience? I've heard nothing but bad comments about my current place of study from everywhere, which makes me think that perhaps I'm not expecting too much of my course and my life in general whilst studying here. The places I'm looking at are in big cities with strong music scenes and as it happens and are actual accredited universities unlike my current music academy. (LIPA, Leeds College of Music, Leeds Met etc.)

I'm simply looking for some advice about what to do, either from ex-students of any other Unis, or anyone who feels they can direct me towards some sense. I've made a hash of my education and early stages of my intended career path so far (at least in terms of decision making) so I'm open to what anyone has to say and will take on board your wise words. Just incase anyone wondered, I'm 20, not that it should make too much of a difference.

Sorry for the long post, I'm just need some valuable outside advice! Your thoughts would be much appreciated at this desperate time!

Thanks guys.



Edited by thom7 (15/05/12 10:07 PM)

Take the hit, put it down to experience, and go back and finish your A levels. Then bite the bullet and take a degree in a subject that the industry wants.

There are numerous threads here on that subject, and I would strongly recommend that you put aside an afternoon to read them all, but all that needs to be said now is that they contain some hard truths with numbers to back them up.

To your credit you acknowledge that you made a mistake. The last thing you want to do is fail to learn from that mistake and repeat it by choosing another course that the industry doesn't value above one that is valued. Pay close attention to the contributions from The Red Bladder and Narcoman because they are among the handful of people in this business who actually employ people.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

It's not clear from your post what's going on with your 'degree'. First you said you were studying a one-year course. Then you start talking about a two-year course which you haven't finished. Did you start another one?

Anyway, it's blindingly obvious that you should leave.

If you have exams coming up in the next few weeks (like normal Universities have) then do them and do as well as you can, so that at least you can say you finished the year and maybe (if you're lucky) that will get you some credit somewhere else. But whatever you do, don't go back. Don't even understand why you're considering it. Struggling on another year with a course you hate might be worth it if you're talking about a physics degree from Cambridge. But not when it's a rubbish course that produces a worthless degree (a BTOTM, ie. a 'Bachelor of Turning on the Mixer').

Quote zenguitar:

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Take the hit, put it down to experience, and go back and finish your A levels. Then bite the bullet and take a degree in a subject that the industry wants.

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That is probably what is going to have to happen in the end, though there are back-doors into some courses via HNC etc., but these courses are nearly all crap with a large shovel!

Here are the facts -

Every year, 4,500 graduates with Music Technology degrees hit the streets.

Another 2,000 have combined degrees with MT and something else thrown together.

There is just a handful of good universities for MT. Graduates from Surrey (Tonmeister only!), LIPA and Birmingham (in that order) find jobs (86%, 80%, 70%). The standards to get in those are high.

There are 126 unis with courses in MT in the UK! There are c.a. 50 studios, 50 PA companies and another 100 post and gaming houses that need MT skills. Broadcasters do not employ MT grads except in rare circumstances. (The BBC took on two last year!) PA companies are looking for electricians and system techs. Studios use a few freelance people (and TBH the MT skills available are rock-bottom, so employing 'qualified' people would be pointless) Gaming needs programming skills, together with the MT stuff.

You do the maths!

HOWEVER -

There are about 5,000 people working in AV technology for AV companies in the UK. There are about 50 such companies, each employing about 100 staff. They cannot find enough system techs to cover their needs! These companies do things like conferences, video presentations, video links to oil platforms, global networks for video conferencing, but you have to be able to cover all bases.

I have spoken to these people and none of them employ MT grads!

I shall add to the above -

What is wrong with doing something 'normal'? Why do kids think that they can make their hobbies into careers, via easy-to-get pudding degrees from the Wysuckie College for the Totally Dumb?

One of my friends happens to be the engineer on Planet Earth with the most credits for World-famous acts of anybody, no matter who. You name 'em and he's done 'em. If they can fill a stadium, he's almost certainly recorded them. He does not earn much. He lives in a small rented house and his wife works.

And he is right at the top of the tree - just think what the rest of the tree looks like!!!

I could mention what others earn, but I will not. It is pennies, even the Tonmeister grads are struggling.

But graduates entering the Aldi management trainee programme get £40,000 and a car. When they finish, they get £55,000 and a much bigger car. Lidl pays almost as much.

Engineers (real ones, that is, i.e. engineers that do not have the word 'music' in their degree title!) get much the same. A geologist can expect £70,000 after a few years.

And these are interesting careers with real chances of promotion to real management with real responsibility - but no, you (and thousands like you) want to sit in a darkened studio at BELOW minimum wage, whilst some spotty Herbert tries and fails to keep time to a click track.

As Scrooge said, I'll retire to Bedlam!

Quote Scramble:

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It's not clear from your post what's going on with your 'degree'. First you said you were studying a one-year course. Then you start talking about a two-year course which you haven't finished. Did you start another one?

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Hi Scramble, I studied the one year course in Production and passed with distinctions. I then moved on to the Music Business BA (at the same place) which started last September. This Music Business degree is only two years and is sold to students on the fact that it is an accelerated course, so my first year exams were all last month and we have now just started the work for the second year, and should I continue I will graduate in July next year. My results for the first year were three 1sts and a 2.1. Hope that clears it up.

I'm not studying anything related to Music Technology in my degree at the moment. It is all about record company structure, publishing, live music, marketing, artist management etc. Basically nothing that can't be learned by doing some brief reading up on the industry or doing work placements at small companies to start with.

Thanks for the facts Red Bladder. I should make it clear that studio engineering is not my intended career path - I'm fully aware of the competition, level of knowledge and experience needed, the long nights and poor salary etc. that comes with being an engineer. With my background in classical music and love of electronic music, I see myself working more in sound design and composition areas; writing for TV, film, games and possibly sound design for moving image. Not that these are necessarily any easier to get in to, but these are just my areas of interest (aside from DJ'ing and producing my own music, but they aren't exactly 'careers'.

If you're not getting anything out of it and feel it's a waste of time then why are you even considering staying? (Is it because you have a grant?)

Quote Scramble:

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If you're not getting anything out of it and feel it's a waste of time then why are you even considering staying? (Is it because you have a grant?)

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Essentially, yes. Going back to re-study my A-Levels would mean moving back home (not possible) and then re-attending University at a later date and self funding the whole degree (again, not really feasible). All my course fees and living costs for the last two years have been covered by maintenance loans and grants from student finance. I'm about £20k in the red so far, and it will probably be nearer £30-£35k by the time I graduate. This is why I'm thinking of transferring in to the second year of a course elsewhere; even starting a new course from Year 1 in September isn't really possible due to the massive increase in fees starting next academic year.

Quote thom7:

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I should make it clear that studio engineering is not my intended career path - I'm fully aware of the competition, level of knowledge and experience needed, the long nights and poor salary etc. that comes with being an engineer. With my background in classical music and love of electronic music, I see myself working more in sound design and composition areas; writing for TV, film, games and possibly sound design for moving image. Not that these are necessarily any easier to get in to, but these are just my areas of interest (aside from DJ'ing and producing my own music, but they aren't exactly 'careers'.

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Then you need some more facts -

There are 35 universities that have over 90 music business degrees between them, producing well over 2,000 graduates every year.

A for V, sound design and music for film and video means you will have to attend the Tonmeister course. That means you need three A-class As (maths, physics and one other academic subject) and grade 7 in two instruments - and of course get through the interview.

Those doing music for film or sound design come from three directions -

1. Established musicians who have stumbled into it.
2. Composition grads from one of the top music schools.
3. Surrey Tonmeister.

What you are doing is a complete waste of time, as there is no need for that skill set. Firstly, there is hardly any music business there to be business-like about, anyway. But secondly and more importantly, what exactly is a music business graduate supposed to do? The accounts or finance? No, that's the job of an accountant. Statistics and market analysis? Hardly, that's the job for statisticians and economists. A&R has vanished, as have most other jobs in the industry or what is left of it.

All the clever and successful business people in this industry that I know, studied something completely different, or they have no qualification, or they did law. The only exception I can think of is a certain, well-known music agency in London, where the all-female management team all came from the Tonmeister course.

If you want a real shot at doing film music, it's going to have to be either composition at somewhere like the Guildhall School of Music, or the Tonmeister. There just are no more lucky breaks, brass rings, or wild cards. There's just too much competition. Music is a winner-takes-all game and society has no need for second- and third-rate music or musicians.

As you have ruled these possibilities out, you are going to have to either transfer to a course in something completely different that society needs - or graduate and spend the rest of your life drifting.

Sorry, but that's the way it is!

Perhaps this thread could be stickied?

(Believe me, Thom7, they're being gentle with you. I speak as someone not in the industry but the sort of hobbyist who collectively are responsible for much of the malaise by doing for ourselves for our own satisfaction and interest the things that previously required a local professional studio).

Computer programming pays well and the skills can be useful in a music technology context too.

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

I would love to help you (and all the others that wander into this vocational dead end!) but to do that, I need to know more.

Do you have any other key skills or interests that might be of use to society? Languages - German, anything?

You are doing a music business course and TBH, as it is accredited by the U of Surrey, you MIGHT (big might there!) be able to transfer to one of their business degree courses, esp. if you have some language skills, as they do business with languages combined. Surrey has a good reputation and is well regarded by employers for most of its courses. They also do three economics courses.

So the bottom line is that you're thinking of wasting a year of your life and racking up big chunk of debt to be paid later all because of the short-term gain of having a grant to live on for the time being. I do actually understand your thinking. But is it really worth it? I'm not going to say anything else as I don't know what your circumstances are. But things aren't going to be any better in a year's time. If you can't transfer to a better course then I'd work on getting a job ASAP, and do the music in your spare time. Forget the idea that you can get into sound design or film scoring by doing a rubbish Music Business course.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Quote thom7:

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I see myself working more in sound design and composition areas; writing for TV, film, games and possibly sound design for moving image.

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If you want to work in composition Thom, wouldn't a more sensible approach be to go and learn about composition?

Perhaps at a conservatoire or some such establishment? I would say that composers, in my humble experience, either follow that route or no route at all i.e for alot of composition tasks, it is a complete waste of time going and doing any type of music production course. You simply either have the talent or not.

However, if you wish to do classical type works with orchestrations and writing for real players and all manner of ensembles, and wish to learn about structure and how to develop ideas properly through tried and tested forms of traditional study based around solid teaching values, then the conservatoire route is the way to go.

Either way, it is very difficult and takes alot of talent and many, many years of hard work and persistence. Even then, if you achieve success in disseminating your work via suitable outlets, it's a lottery as to whether you'll earn enough to buy a Tesco Value beans or Sainsbury's Finest Beans.

It is surprising that alot of people want to be composers in this day and age yet very few seem to realize it might be a good idea to actually learn the trade! And by that I don't mean getting grade 5 theory.

'Music business' courses are pointless as that knowledge comes naturally anyway as one's career path develops. Funnily enough, they are usually run by people who know nothing about music business. As far as composition goes, there is very little 'business' to be done once your Ltd. co., and VAT dealings are understood. The only real 'business' is selling your wares and those skills can be better learnt working on a Sunday market stall.

Good luck Thom, you seem to be intelligent and express yourself well. This can only be an advantage in this day and age!

Quote Bob Shoes:

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If you want to work in composition Thom, wouldn't a more sensible approach be to go and learn about composition?

Perhaps at a conservatoire or some such establishment? I would say that composers, in my humble experience, either follow that route or no route at all i.e for alot of composition tasks, it is a complete waste of time going and doing any type of music production course. You simply either have the talent or not.

However, if you wish to do classical type works with orchestrations and writing for real players and all manner of ensembles, and wish to learn about structure and how to develop ideas properly through tried and tested forms of traditional study based around solid teaching values, then the conservatoire route is the way to go.

Either way, it is very difficult and takes alot of talent and many, many years of hard work and persistence. Even then, if you achieve success in disseminating your work via suitable outlets, it's a lottery as to whether you'll earn enough to buy a Tesco Value beans or Sainsbury's Finest Beans.

It is surprising that alot of people want to be composers in this day and age yet very few seem to realize it might be a good idea to actually learn the trade! And by that I don't mean getting grade 5 theory.

'Music business' courses are pointless as that knowledge comes naturally anyway as one's career path develops. Funnily enough, they are usually run by people who know nothing about music business. As far as composition goes, there is very little 'business' to be done once your Ltd. co., and VAT dealings are understood. The only real 'business' is selling your wares and those skills can be better learnt working on a Sunday market stall.

Good luck Thom, you seem to be intelligent and express yourself well. This can only be an advantage in this day and age!

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I agree entirely. To learn composition really sets people apart, there are bucketloads of Musictech type courses that seem to be unworthy of those with talent and can apply themselves.

Competition is tough for such courses at the more well established music colleges and universities with highly regarded music departments, the standards are exceptionally high. But even those colleges we regard as 'classical' teach modern techniques in order to gain knowledge about production etc I went to of the more 'more and progressive' universities and the lecturer/interviewer dissed a more traditional establishment saying "They just knock out fiddler fodder for the orchestras" which I know isn't the case.

Whichever course yu take, compositon for example, the objective is to become highly proficient and knowledgeable about your subject. Once done, you can move off in your chosen direction. After all, we all use the same lexicon - 'middle c' is middle c in any form of music, be it madrigals, electronic, grime or whatever

it's a sorry reflection, but what you say about the present course with the dis-affected lecturers and sparse course content and resources, is not uncommon, their objective, just as a performer's is, is 'bums on seats' roll out 'Have a Go Joe' as long as he has his teaching certificate and can knock a beat out on the bodhrun and call it a music course.

Might it be worth considering taking a year out, giving time to really research the options? The courses won't go away in the meantime, no matter what, you can always bank on the fact that there will always be someone that wants your money, by fair means or foul.

Best of luck

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Do you have any other key skills or interests that might be of use to society? Languages - German, anything?

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I studied Psychology and Spanish for my other A-Levels. I'm not sure I'd be at the standard to transfer in to the second year of a degree course that involved either of these two, or even be accepted on in the first place.

Quote Bob Shoes:

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If you want to work in composition Thom, wouldn't a more sensible approach be to go and learn about composition?

'Music business' courses are pointless as that knowledge comes naturally anyway as one's career path develops.

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The conservatoire route is something I've looked into and it seems like a much more suitable alternative. I agree the business course is pointless, I've learnt more and developed stronger skills by doing internships and talking to a few of the lecturers outside of college, than by going to lectures and reading textbooks.


I have enquired about transferring in to 2nd year of Sound Technology at LIPA and waiting on a reply from admissions, although I can't say I'm overly optimistic that I'll hear back. I've heard back from a few other places but will be keeping my options open for as long as I need to. Thanks for everyone's input so far.

No decent Psychology degree in the country will accept you into second-year on the basis of a Psychology A-level and a Music Tech course.

Quote thom7:

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Quote The Red Bladder:

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Do you have any other key skills or interests that might be of use to society? Languages - German, anything?

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I studied Psychology and Spanish for my other A-Levels. I'm not sure I'd be at the standard to transfer in to the second year of a degree course that involved either of these two, or even be accepted on in the first place.

Quote Bob Shoes:

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If you want to work in composition Thom, wouldn't a more sensible approach be to go and learn about composition?

'Music business' courses are pointless as that knowledge comes naturally anyway as one's career path develops.

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The conservatoire route is something I've looked into and it seems like a much more suitable alternative. I agree the business course is pointless, I've learnt more and developed stronger skills by doing internships and talking to a few of the lecturers outside of college, than by going to lectures and reading textbooks.


I have enquired about transferring in to 2nd year of Sound Technology at LIPA and waiting on a reply from admissions, although I can't say I'm overly optimistic that I'll hear back. I've heard back from a few other places but will be keeping my options open for as long as I need to. Thanks for everyone's input so far.

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Not a criticism but there does seem to be a hint of desperation in your writing Thom. It's apparent you're really not enjoying it and are keen to go anywhere and do anything! I have been in a similar situation and if I can offer some sensible advice it would be to bow out of the music tech course and take a year out to go and do some normal 9-5 work whilst you assess your options. But the bottom line is this; ask yourself 'what do I ultimately want to make my career?' and then assess whether a course of study will enhance your chances.

FWIW, speaking as a professional composer, the skills I learnt came from a formal musical education. No mickey mouse music tech course was necessary. Music business knowledge, as I said, comes naturally as you move up the ladder. Production skills? Well I'm no Brian Eno and don't understand what a compressor does but really all a composer needs to be able to do is compose, be able to mic up instruments/voices, work a sequencer a bit, be able to mix down the resulting masterpiece into a stereo wav and bung this on a CD / in an email / or in a dropbox. It's that simples innit.

I think you have to bear in mind, as has been alluded to, that these courses aren't set up to help you get into work, they are just an excellent way of generating income for the institutions themselves. They care not one jot what happens to you or your overdraft. They take advantage of the fact that people are desperate to get into music and cleverly present the image to the naive masses that there is some kind of market for music tech grads. It is a mirage though. A phantom market developed by the purveyors of these wonderfully useless (and costly) courses.

FWIW, alot of chums I know (and moi) kind of did it by getting work and developing the music on the side. At least that way you can support yourself.

I've had a long, hard look at your course and all the options, as well as the job and career markets in the various fields. Here are your options -

1. Carry on and get that degree with hons.
2. Switch to another course.
3. Go back to school and get those A-Levels.
4. Drop out and get a job or start some other education.

When you look dispassionately at those options, the choice becomes very clear - at least it does to me!

1. Once you have that degree, that allows you to study something else at a higher level and therefore get a qualification that really means something.

2. If you switch to another degree course, you will have to start at the beginning. The one year of that course will not be recognised as counting towards anything.

3. You have ruled this one out and you will need to do proper subjects (i.e. not psychology, but three academic subjects) and that really means one or two years of full time study.

4. You are not Bill Gates, who had to drop out because he was just too busy being successful, you would be dropping out because you failed. Employers avoid quitters like the plague!

Realistically speaking, you have one option and one option only. Continue, get that stupid pudding degree and do the Hons and make sure that you get at least a 2.1 and use that to get one year of an MA or MBA in business.

That degree is just a two-year thing, so some colleges may not accept it. I do know that US colleges will just not accept any two year course, no matter who accredited the damn thing! It is however a business degree and not a music degree.

Love it or hate it, you are doing a business degree - you are NOT doing a music degree. If you goal is to compose music, then, by dropping out of school, you goofed and goofed big time!

But you are where you are. If you want to study music, then you have to fulfil the entry requirements of somewhere decent (please don't bother with third-rate music colleges, that would be frying-pan to fire) like Goldsmiths or Guildhall - and then,after you are a really proficient musician, go on, formally or informally, to study composition. That almost certainly, means back to school or get up to speed, to pass the entry auditions and entry tests!

You are doing a business degree and not a music degree. You drove clean off the music road and down the business road, taking (TBH) a rather downhill back road! For this reason, if you are prepared to continue down this road, you can rescue the situation by entering the world of business.

If you are prepared to do this, you could be the proud owner of an MBA within a couple of years. If I were you, I would talk to one of the lecturers at Surrey about this option, after all, they are accrediting your course - and Surrey Business Department is actually one of the better ones in the UK, so they might be prepared to accept you degree as entry to their MBA or MA/MSc courses.

So the real choice is

1. Continue down the business path and finish with an MBA or MA and have a meaningful qualification for a career in business management.

2. Take two steps back and get what it takes to enter a good music college and study music first, followed by composition.

Everything else would be drifting and that is deadly!

So, what's it to be?

The choice...is yours....

Quote The Red Bladder:

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If I were you, I would talk to one of the lecturers at Surrey about this option, after all, they are accrediting your course - and Surrey Business Department is actually one of the better ones in the UK, so they might be prepared to accept you degree as entry to their MBA or MA/MSc courses.

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I thought that the website was a little vague on this - they mention some kind of parnership with Surrey but fall short of saying that it is actually accredited.

I must admit that I don't have a great deal of respect for the establishment in question. It was set up by a local music shop as an extension of their retail activities. The graduates that I've met seem to know how to play scales extremely fast but that's about it.

As Mr Bladder suggests, take a walk across the railway bridge and up the hill to the University and see what they can do for you.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Hi guys, sorry for the delayed reply. Thanks very much for all of your comments. I am currently in talks with Surrey University about my possible options for a 2nd year transfer (i.e. which courses/departments will accept me based on my current qualifications and experience). Hopefully I can come to some sort of resolution - thanks again for all your help.

Good man! Well done and good luck!

RB, have to say it's fantastic that you have spent the time to respond in such a detailed and constructive way. Hope it goes well for the OP.

I don't know anyone with a degree in music, because most of them believed in themselves and took day jobs, until the music pay took over. Talent, luck, and family who will put you up until you can make your own way seems to work. I am not in favour of Uni degree's in music. I think the best music is made without the shackles of pass papers. Good luck though, you might be different sthum.

Quote Red Bladder:

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3. You have ruled this one out and you will need to do proper subjects (i.e. not psychology, but three academic subjects) and that really means one or two years of full time study.

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Psychology is an academic subject

Quote atechnogirl:

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I am not in favour of Uni degree's in music. I think the best music is made without the shackles of pass papers.

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Absolutely atechno. I mean, you wouldn't wanna be on a flight with a pilot that's been to flying school would ya? All them bally rules and regs. Pfft. Where's the romance and the joi de vive in that eh?

Personally, I prefer them pilots that just get the Sopwith out whenever the fancy takes them and who go for a 'jolly' round the Sussex skies avec goggles, a buffed leather cap, a small terrier and a diamond jubilee scarf.

You make an excellent point and I especially admire the non-specific, subjectively generalized nature of your post.

We should have more of that on here.

Quote White Car Man:

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Quote atechnogirl:

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I am not in favour of Uni degree's in music. I think the best music is made without the shackles of pass papers.

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Absolutely atechno. I mean, you wouldn't wanna be on a flight with a pilot that's been to flying school would ya? All them bally rules and regs. Pfft. Where's the romance and the joi de vive in that eh?

Personally, I prefer them pilots that just get the Sopwith out whenever the fancy takes them and who go for a 'jolly' round the Sussex skies avec goggles, a buffed leather cap, a small terrier and a diamond jubilee scarf.

You make an excellent point and I especially admire the non-specific, subjectively generalized nature of your post.

We should have more of that on here.

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Your analogy is very poor and doesn't work. The fact is that most people who do music tech courses are losers and / or layabouts and those kind of people don't make good music or are suited to working in a studio. The teachers on the courses are not much better either. Just that they've grimly accepted the failure of their musical dreams and got fed up of living with their parents in their 30s.

Quote thom7:

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Quote Scramble:

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If you're not getting anything out of it and feel it's a waste of time then why are you even considering staying? (Is it because you have a grant?)

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Essentially, yes. Going back to re-study my A-Levels would mean moving back home (not possible) and then re-attending University at a later date and self funding the whole degree (again, not really feasible). All my course fees and living costs for the last two years have been covered by maintenance loans and grants from student finance. I'm about £20k in the red so far, and it will probably be nearer £30-£35k by the time I graduate. This is why I'm thinking of transferring in to the second year of a course elsewhere; even starting a new course from Year 1 in September isn't really possible due to the massive increase in fees starting next academic year.

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OK. You're lumbered with a student loan. You may as well try to get something useful out of it.

Investigate transferring to any course, anywhere, that will give you a real qualification. I'd forget anything to do with music production, or music-specific business studies. Maybe a straightforward Business Administration degree?

Otherwise, cut your losses. You owe £20K. Why go on until you owe £30K? Get out and get a job. It's a pity you didn't finish your A-levels. Ask the local Education Authority wherever you're living what options there might be for finishing the courses and taking the exams while doing some kind of job to pay the bills. A-Levels aren't too hard these days, but without them your prospects are very limited.

Quote johnny h:

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Quote White Car Man:

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Quote atechnogirl:

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I am not in favour of Uni degree's in music. I think the best music is made without the shackles of pass papers.

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Absolutely atechno. I mean, you wouldn't wanna be on a flight with a pilot that's been to flying school would ya? All them bally rules and regs. Pfft. Where's the romance and the joi de vive in that eh?

Personally, I prefer them pilots that just get the Sopwith out whenever the fancy takes them and who go for a 'jolly' round the Sussex skies avec goggles, a buffed leather cap, a small terrier and a diamond jubilee scarf.

You make an excellent point and I especially admire the non-specific, subjectively generalized nature of your post.

We should have more of that on here.

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Your analogy is very poor and doesn't work. The fact is that most people who do music tech courses are losers and / or layabouts and those kind of people don't make good music or are suited to working in a studio. The teachers on the courses are not much better either. Just that they've grimly accepted the failure of their musical dreams and got fed up of living with their parents in their 30s.

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Atechno mentioned Uni degree courses in music Johnny, not music tech courses.

As I'm sure you'll appreciate, this covers a broad spectrum and not just the specific area you focused on.

As I think I intimated, generalizations are very dangerous on a forum as certain contributors see fit to apply their own interpretations and seize upon a their own specific angle whilst failing to understand what has actually been said.

As has just been demonstrated.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote thom7:

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Quote Scramble:

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If you're not getting anything out of it and feel it's a waste of time then why are you even considering staying? (Is it because you have a grant?)

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Essentially, yes. Going back to re-study my A-Levels would mean moving back home (not possible) and then re-attending University at a later date and self funding the whole degree (again, not really feasible). All my course fees and living costs for the last two years have been covered by maintenance loans and grants from student finance. I'm about £20k in the red so far, and it will probably be nearer £30-£35k by the time I graduate. This is why I'm thinking of transferring in to the second year of a course elsewhere; even starting a new course from Year 1 in September isn't really possible due to the massive increase in fees starting next academic year.

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OK. You're lumbered with a student loan. You may as well try to get something useful out of it.

Investigate transferring to any course, anywhere, that will give you a real qualification. I'd forget anything to do with music production, or music-specific business studies. Maybe a straightforward Business Administration degree?

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Errr... he has and is making significant progress... as mentioned later in the thread... do keep up. :-)

Quote White Car Man:

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Quote johnny h:

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Quote White Car Man:

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Quote atechnogirl:

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I am not in favour of Uni degree's in music. I think the best music is made without the shackles of pass papers.

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Absolutely atechno. I mean, you wouldn't wanna be on a flight with a pilot that's been to flying school would ya? All them bally rules and regs. Pfft. Where's the romance and the joi de vive in that eh?

Personally, I prefer them pilots that just get the Sopwith out whenever the fancy takes them and who go for a 'jolly' round the Sussex skies avec goggles, a buffed leather cap, a small terrier and a diamond jubilee scarf.

You make an excellent point and I especially admire the non-specific, subjectively generalized nature of your post.

We should have more of that on here.

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Your analogy is very poor and doesn't work. The fact is that most people who do music tech courses are losers and / or layabouts and those kind of people don't make good music or are suited to working in a studio. The teachers on the courses are not much better either. Just that they've grimly accepted the failure of their musical dreams and got fed up of living with their parents in their 30s.

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Atechno mentioned Uni degree courses in music Johnny, not music tech courses.

As I'm sure you'll appreciate, this covers a broad spectrum and not just the specific area you focused on.

As I think I intimated, generalizations are very dangerous on a forum as certain contributors see fit to apply their own interpretations and seize upon a their own specific angle whilst failing to understand what has actually been said.

As has just been demonstrated.

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Well I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the thread topic is about music technology courses. Hence atechnogirl's comment. Please study the term "context" before you enlighten us with your bad analogies again.

Quote thom7:

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Hi guys, sorry for the delayed reply. Thanks very much for all of your comments. I am currently in talks with Surrey University about my possible options for a 2nd year transfer (i.e. which courses/departments will accept me based on my current qualifications and experience). Hopefully I can come to some sort of resolution - thanks again for all your help.

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You'll see that the OP was happy with the advice he'd been given, has acted upon it and is generally a contented little bunny. He's probably not going to revisit this thread and his very specific question had been fully addressed. We're now going over old ground - consequently.... ker-click!