Technically, we all know the term 'professional' refers to someone who makes money from what they do (especially as a main income) but it seems that some people take the distinction between professional work and that of the Amateur/Hobbyist more seriously than others.

I make money from music theory publications, but I've not (yet) made any money out of actual music composition. I'm not remotely attracted to composing music purely for money, and I don't think I could work up the inclination to do so. I think it would be a waste of my time, ideas and love for composition. Although I would like to make money from my music someday soon, I don't take it as any sign of confirmation of quality or competence.

We have to remember that Van Gogh only sold one painting during his lifetime, and Schubert had only one concert of his music performed before he died. I don't put myself in their league, but these examples beg the question of whether the distinction should be respected at all. I mean, we all know about trashy pop hits, but I mean even in the more long established art-music, art and literature circles. I don't think the most notable figures would've really enjoyed sitting next to Van Gogh at their prestigious annual dinner party events anyway.

I'm not very knowledgeable about this (music biz-buzz) subject so I'd be interested to know your thoughts.

A 'professional' is someone who earns their living from doing something. Plain and simple.

There was a time when 'being a professional' had an implied standard of competence and training associate with it but I think that concept has long since left the building if my experiences of proclaimed 'professionals' are anything to go by!

So while there are many excellent experienced and skillful audio or musical profesisonals out there (and in here! ), it can't be assumed that a 'professional' is actually any good at what they do, or particularly knowledgable about it. They may not even have a love for, or affinity towards, the subject, technology or techniques involved.

Conversely, an amatuer is someone who does something for the love of it -- whether they are paid for that or not. A lot of amateurs are actually very professional, sometiems rather more so than the actual paid professionals

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

People often confuse "amateur" (doing it for the love of doing it) and "amateurish" (a shoddy job). Not helped by the fact that the second term was coined by snotty "professionals" who neither love the job, nor do it well......

The American jazz musician Mose Allison released a great record back in the early 80's (few had heard of him then either) called 'Kidding on the Square'. I caught his gig at a pub in London when he was doing the promo tour. Couldn't believe at the time you could hear music that good in a pub! The record and title song were named for an old jazz slang more or less translating as 'messing about with serious intent'. At 82 he's still gigging his music, including the title song from 'Kidding On The Square'. I just saw a review of a free concert he did in Madison Square Park last June. The reviewer described the song itself as "still beyond hip". He's a life long professional who is enormously respected amongst his peers but who has never received any main stream recognition. He lives for his music rather than off it. As an octogenarian he can't stop performing, even if it means doing free outdoor concerts. Actually I suspect he was delighted to do a free outdoor concert. He knew even in 1984 that nobody was ever going to know who he was (even the sleeve notes to KOTS said "...for the benefit of the 'whose Mose Allison? crowd'...). If you asked him if he was a pro or a corinthian he'd probably tell you he's just kidding on the square...

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

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The American jazz musician Mose Allison released a great record back in the early 80's (few had heard of him then either) called 'Kidding on the Square'./quote]

Correction: The 1982 album was called 'Middle Class White Boy" and it featured the song 'Kidding On The Square'.

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Strictly project and just for fun

I'd suggest that the distinctions between 'expert' and 'inexpert', 'experienced' and 'inexperienced', and 'skilled' and unskilled' are more useful in this context than between 'amateur' and 'professional'.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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A 'professional' is someone who earns their living from doing something. Plain and simple.

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Wot he sed.
Simple as that.

It's not about judging the artistic worth of a professional vs non-professional, but to a commercial client - there is judgement.

Is this piece of music what I want ?
Can I or my company exploit this piece of work ?
Does it suit the brief ?
Is there a market ?

etc

This is where a professional music writer is judged every working day.
If the work has suitable commercial value to the client / publisher / label etc - then you both move forward. If not, not.

It's worth pointing out - that the OP's suggestion that professionals work 'purely for the money' - is a common misconception amongst non-professionals.

Professional composers LOVE their work.
- It's not easy work, because it's emotional, it is artistic, it's creative - and HIGHLY competitive - but the personal satisfaction levels, are also very high.

Because of an extremely competitive market place - professional composers need to take their work standards to the highest levels. Everyday is a drive to exceed the efforts of the previous day. To push yourself to the very limits of your capability. To define yourself both as an artist and a commercial entity. To break your artistic molds - but also create work of commercial value.

If you want a definition other than the obvious "makes a living at it" one, try "A professional is available to do the job and delivers it, done competently, on time, without fussing, for the agreed price".

An amateur may be able to get the same result. But he faffs around while doing it.

Most of the musos I know, even the proper ones with years at the RNCM often do other things for money (shall we draw a veil?).

So does that make them professional musos or not?

If not, they then have a string of decent tours or a year's contract do they then become professional?

I don't think it's that straightforward.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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If you want a definition other than the obvious "makes a living at it" one, try "A professional is available to do the job and delivers it, done competently, on time, without fussing, for the agreed price".

An amateur may be able to get the same result. But he faffs around while doing it.

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Nope! Don't agree. Hugh's post explains why.

my opinion is, a professional is someone who has spent enough years, put a lot of energy and FOCUSed on what he does,and learnt millions of different things to become very good at what he's doing; very good in a way that people would ask him to do the job for them cause they believe he really knows what's the best. he's gained this level of profession partly because of many years of experience and work, and partly because of talent and intelgence he's born with [a reall gift from god].

and in this journey during all those years of learning,working and experiencing he might be paid or not, sometimes paid and sometimes just for the love of doing it.During this period and while he's learning the craft, he can be considered an amateur.he can still do the job to some degree, but hasn't reached and passed the standard line.

of course 1) most of these things are relative and depend on where you are looking from and 2) many people do some jobs that they're not any good at and many real professional are jobless. it's because of other social factors invovled in the story.

but I personally judge professionalism mostly based on the quality of one's output. the payment and $ value comes next.

I could be considered amateur comparing to the guy who recorded\mixed that album from the very famous american rock band, and the guy can be considered amateur compared to george martin. so goes on.. i think it depends on where you are currently at and comparing to who.

Edited by Persian Bit (18/05/12 10:13 PM)

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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If you want a definition other than the obvious "makes a living at it" one, try "A professional is available to do the job and delivers it, done competently, on time, without fussing, for the agreed price".

An amateur may be able to get the same result. But he faffs around while doing it.

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If only that were true I know of many 'professional's whose competency I have questioned, and many amateurs who don't faff at all!

H

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote Exalted Wombat:

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If you want a definition other than the obvious "makes a living at it" one, try "A professional is available to do the job and delivers it, done competently, on time, without fussing, for the agreed price".

An amateur may be able to get the same result. But he faffs around while doing it.

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If only that were true I know of many 'professional's whose competency I have questioned, and many amateurs who don't faff at all!

H

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So try using MY definition of "professional" then!

I want paying for my opinion.....

Edited by Paul G Shaw (19/05/12 01:09 PM)

Quote Paul G Shaw:

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I want paying for my opinion.....

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You are Perry Mason... and I claim my £5

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

I thought he was Lobby Lud..

I'm not paying for Perry Mason's opinion..

nothing to do with ability, everything to do with responsibility and contracts. There are talented amateurs who will NEVER become professionals for reasons outside of their musical ability..... being scruffy, unable to hold a conversation, none marketable, slack on returning phone calls, unable to write an intelligible email, not hitting deadlines etc etc etc. I'm good mates with a very talented bloke but he fails terribly in the communication stakes. I KNOW he's lost jobs because of it. To inject a half relevant saying - it's not what you like but what you ARE like.

Most people I speak to always think about the "ability" thing - "my mate is JUST as good a mixer as you Narc, why won't you give him a chance". Indeed - and I've often come across people who, when it comes to a mix, are a lot better than I - but they fail in the areas that actually matter. It's never about being "the best" (got news for you - it NEVER has been) - but it is about being very good AND able to address the areas for the day to day needs of running a business.

It certainly is a very difficult and ambiguous dividing line between amateur and professional, that's for sure. Often the boundaries are so blurred as to be wholly unclear as to what are the exact per-requisites of either.

Take this guy from my local for example, Glen. Nice guy, a bit quiet. Well his wife appeared in a few magazines last year as an amateur. However, other chaps in the pub who have had dealings with her in the past assure me that she is very much the professional - not least because she seems to enjoy her work and gets quite nicely paid by all accounts.

At the end of the day, it's swings and roundabouts.

Having said that, I agree with Narco completely.

hahah! nice!

Quote narcoman:

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nothing to do with ability, everything to do with responsibility and contracts. There are talented amateurs who will NEVER become professionals for reasons outside of their musical ability..... being scruffy, unable to hold a conversation, none marketable, slack on returning phone calls, unable to write an intelligible email, not hitting deadlines etc etc etc. I'm good mates with a very talented bloke but he fails terribly in the communication stakes. I KNOW he's lost jobs because of it. To inject a half relevant saying - it's not what you like but what you ARE like.

Most people I speak to always think about the "ability" thing - "my mate is JUST as good a mixer as you Narc, why won't you give him a chance". Indeed - and I've often come across people who, when it comes to a mix, are a lot better than I - but they fail in the areas that actually matter. It's never about being "the best" (got news for you - it NEVER has been) - but it is about being very good AND able to address the areas for the day to day needs of running a business.

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S'pose that just about nails it for musicians as well.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

i think it's something applicable across the board for EVERY trade. How do you think some of the crew out there are successful mixers yet with far less ability than some I've heard on SOS? Cus it sure as hell ain't anything to do with mixing (which is often merely acceptable, like me!!); yet he/she/they will deliver an on time package, be around in London when people need ya, won't complain about recalls etc....

Many years ago now my guitar making teacher Norman Reed quoted an old violin maker on the difference between a professional and an amateur. Amateurs can take as long as they like to create great work but a professional has to do it good enough first time.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Consider this. When you're out late and you need something to eat and you are stuck with some sleazy chicken-and-kebab joint with flies buzzing around and dirty floors, sticky counter and wilted salad, frozen food which is quickly deep fried and re-heated chips the person who prepares the food and wraps it in some paper is a "professional".

Quote ow:

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Consider this. When you're out late and you need something to eat and you are stuck with some sleazy chicken-and-kebab joint with flies buzzing around and dirty floors, sticky counter and wilted salad, frozen food which is quickly deep fried and re-heated chips the person who prepares the food and wraps it in some paper is a "professional".

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I don't mean to be pedantic, but the person who prepares the food is usually a different person to the one that wraps it. A small point but one worth clarifying.

hth

Yes, and thanks. The kebab would be brought to us by a "team" of professionals.

And one from the art world. A professional painter is some-one who paints, whether they feel like it or not. An amateur paints when they feel like it.

I often get paid for my musical endeavors (both live and studio work), but it's only a small percentage of my income.

I would not consider myself to be professional, as the word conjures-up images of impossibly-talented session musicians, or big-named producers sitting in their mixing-desk-fitted ivory towers.

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www.thediplomatz.com

Quote peterdeltablues:

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And one from the art world. A professional painter is some-one who paints, whether they feel like it or not. An amateur paints when they feel like it.

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This is fun. I wonder how many more we can think of.

Erm - pottery? A professional is someone who makes pots and sells them at craft fairs etc. An amateur is someone who doesn't.

I'll see if I can think of some more...

What about paraprofessionals? Hard to find a librarian in a library these days.
As long as 'bean counters' are running the world the future is bright for the paraprofessional. Watch out Pro types. the paras are nipping at your heels.

Look at it this way..

The Post Office is supposed to be a 'team' of 'professionals' - but on a number of occasions my mail hasn't turned up, or things have been lost in the post.

Where as, the other day, I asked my mate Trevor if he would drop a parcel off on his way to the bank - and he did.

So what I'm trying to say is - although I didn't pay him, Trevor has 100% success rate, where as the Post Office who are so called 'professionals' even a 'team of professionals' most certainly do not have 100% success rate.

Who is the most 'professional' ?
If you can answer that honestly, then I think you understand.

Quote blue manga:

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Look at it this way..

The Post Office is supposed to be a 'team' of 'professionals' - but on a number of occasions my mail hasn't turned up, or things have been lost in the post.

Where as, the other day, I asked my mate Trevor if he would drop a parcel off on his way to the bank - and he did.

So what I'm trying to say is - although I didn't pay him, Trevor has 100% success rate, where as the Post Office who are so called 'professionals' even a 'team of professionals' most certainly do not have 100% success rate.

Who is the most 'professional' ?
If you can answer that honestly, then I think you understand.

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Yes, but Trevor has always been a reliable sort of guy. What if you gave the parcel to Glynn? I doubt if such a confident outcome could be assured.

It's true what you say about GLynn, but what I would say in his favour, Bob ..
Glynn can be trusted to make a real Italian style insalata mista (mixed salad)
- because his girlfriend Gwyneth, being half Welsh half Italian, taught him the basics.

Where as if I go into the so called 'Italian restaurant' on the high street here - I can almost guarantee you that the salad will not be authentic insalata mista, like what they eat in Milano.

Now I would rather pay Glynn a little extra for his insalata mista, than the so called 'professionals' who are delivering shoddy lettuce and tomato (not even cherry tomato) mixes on the high street.

So again, I ask you - who is the professional ?
Is the so called 'Italian Restaurant' - or is it Glynn ?
I know what I think, but maybe you are all just too caught up on the 'meaning' of words.

I would say that Glynn is an artist, Trevor is a Handyman and the Italians are Professionals. Their salad may not be the best but they have probably taken a commercial decision and set a price point at which they can make a profit even if their salad isn't completely authentic.

Quote ow:

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their salad isn't completely authentic.

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You can say that again Ow, you can say that again.

Somnething to consider is that only a professional can be unprofessional.

I would just like to add that the term amateur/hobbyist when applied to certain occupations like stamp collecting or antique dealing are non-prejudicial (ie those involved do it for fun/love), whereas apply the terms to an art (music) and they take on negative connotations (ie not well executed, poor quality). It's definitely a put down to refer to a musician as a hobbyist, meaning they're not serious about their art.

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Quote blue manga:

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Now I would rather pay Glynn a little extra for his insalata mista, than the so called 'professionals' who are delivering shoddy lettuce and tomato (not even cherry tomato) mixes on the high street.

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Yes, well as we both know, Glynn's home economics 'O' Level came in handy and might explain his prowess with a range of Italian ingredients. And let's not forget, with a surname like Marcellini-Bianco you would be an embarrassment if you couldn't deliver on the taste front.

However, I dare say you would be less welcoming of Glynn's sister-in-law Tracey preparing your Insalata Mista.

Cultural heritage isn't a good guide to food quality. There's a Indian in town and quite frankly those Indians are cowboys.

This is starting to move towards "I think we're all done here now" territory... unless anyone has anything to add relating to the music technology sphere...

Mike

Quote GlynB:

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It's definitely a put down to refer to a musician as a hobbyist, meaning they're not serious about their art.

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I agree with GlynB. The term hobbyist would be an insult to many musicians and composers.
Music is not a hobby. It is more a way of life.