I not sure I am sufficiently informed to have a view on this but I'm interested to hear those of people who actually work in the business. Universal's bid for EMI is the highest profile antitrust case at DG Competition in Brussels right now. The question is would Universal/Vivendi be creating too dominant a market position in Europe if it were allowed to acquire EMI? Universal say what with piracy and the general kicking the industry has had in recent years, efficiencies in scale of operation are the only defense. Brussels are worried that if Universal were to acquire EMI they might be in a position to rig the price of CDs and downloads, and somehow be anticompetitive in how they set studio costs. Which seems a slightly daft argument but anyway, what do you guy's think?

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I thought Universal already had EMI records .. and Sony had pub ..(Sony wins)

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I thought Universal already had EMI records .. and Sony had pub ..(Sony wins)

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Yeah I thought that too dewd.

They do but its been referred to the competition authorities, who can make them sell things.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

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They do but its been referred to the competition authorities, who can make them sell things.

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Indeed. I have a feeling, though, with the incredibly diminished value of EMI AND the huge asset sell off that it won't be an issue. EMI records have a small catalogue compared to Universal and others.

EMI publishing, however. Now THAT has value.

Well the production music labels must be worth millions. They bring in megabux.

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Well the production music labels must be worth millions. They bring in megabux.

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they are owned by the publisher, not the record label.

Point of fact, Vivendi (Universal) have contracted to buy EMI from Citigroup, deal to be closed by September. So they don't actually own it yet. As in they haven't yet paid for it (presumably, they might have handed over some of the money - not clear). That's what I'm seeing in the financial press anyway. But I must admit, the Financial Times have not mentioned any distinction (over several articles) between the production bit of EMI and the publishing bit. It is not even clear that DG Competition have gleamed this distinction! Although I'd be amazed if they hadn't. Probably just sloppy reporting by the FT. The bid in sterling is £1.2bn, considerably less than Guy Hands paid for it back in his day (or is it? If its just the production arm)?

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Quote Frisonic:

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between the production bit of EMI and the publishing bit. It is not even clear that DG Competition have gleamed this distinction!

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There isnt a distinction. The masters are owned by the publisher.

yes indeedy .. I know it's a point aside (wasn't aware of the monopoly commissions thing - but yeh - find it a bit irrelevant - actually prices are not set so much by competition but black market, these days) - but yeh - EMI publishing - amazeballz .. EMI Records - I kind of imagine inheriting it like one would inherit a lead weight around one's ankles .. let alone paying good dollar for it .. weird ..

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The bid in sterling is £1.2bn, considerably less than Guy Hands paid for it back in his day (or is it? If its just the production arm)?

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It's not the production arm - it's the record company. Publishing end has been cleared, apparently. Dont see EMI records being a hold up....

I expect the record company will be cleared too. I just can't see any justifiable objection. Nobody here thinks there is any good reason to block it anyways, so why should DG Competition?

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Well the production music labels must be worth millions. They bring in megabux.

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they are owned by the publisher, not the record label.

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Oh thanks for pointing that out, I had absolutely no idea whatsoever.

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Well the production music labels must be worth millions. They bring in megabux.

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they are owned by the publisher, not the record label.

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Oh thanks for pointing that out, I had absolutely no idea whatsoever.

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Like I said in my first post, I am not at all certain I am sufficiently informed to have an opinion about this myself (I've already stood corrected) which was why I asked for informed opinions. But I'm even less certain that the competition authorities are any better informed!

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Quote White Car Man:

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Well the production music labels must be worth millions. They bring in megabux.

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they are owned by the publisher, not the record label.

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Oh thanks for pointing that out, I had absolutely no idea whatsoever.

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Like I said in my first post, I am not at all certain I am sufficiently informed to have an opinion about this myself (I've already stood corrected) which was why I asked for informed opinions. But I'm even less certain that the competition authorities are any better informed!

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Well, speaking for myself, I am certainly alot more enlightened now because, as I say, I had absolutely no idea that the production music labels were owned by the publisher.

I wonder if Blue Manga was aware of this?

I know nothing.

I did not say this.. I am not here ...

The money in the production labels are in the residuals which lies mostly in the publishing. A record label is a very narrow thing. They aree about the commercial exploitation of recordings at a point of sale. Production music is often adapted,edited and reworked frostems to fit in with a project. this isn't something that a label wants at a point of sale.... They're two fairly distinct areas of business and require very different business structures.

Library/production music is for things that are not artist driven and do not seek the approval of writers for use.

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The money in the production labels are in the residuals which lies mostly in the publishing. A record label is a very narrow thing. They aree about the commercial exploitation of recordings at a point of sale. Production music is often adapted,edited and reworked frostems to fit in with a project. this isn't something that a label wants at a point of sale.... They're two fairly distinct areas of business and require very different business structures.

Library/production music is for things that are not artist driven and do not seek the approval of writers for use.

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Hey thanks for that, that really clarifies things. So production music and record labels are like two separate distinct entities then? And the production music is sorted by the publishing side?

I'm interested in this as I've heard there's megabux in production music (I read that some is even used in films!) and I fancy having a bash at it - friends and family say I'm good with jingles and would maybe write really good theme tunes given the chance.

Just need to find out where to send my demo to.

There isn't mega bucks in it any more than anywhere else. there IS if you own the publishing company that operates in those areas(:)) or you have a library on one of the big publishers. It's as hard an area to make work as composing for film, games or adverts. Getting noticed is very very difficult as it's a hugely oversubscribed market.

Secondly - there are very many aggressive strategies out there from sync and production companies and having a track record (the eternal catch 22) is the only real way of getting into it. Sending a demo wont work (well - it MIGHT). You'd be better off looking at promotional strategies and doing something very niche. But niche costs and therefore it's a gamble. For example - there is remarkably little interest in stuff recorded with virtual instruments so playing it for real is a good option.... welcome to the world of spending £10k !!

Quote narcoman:

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There isn't mega bucks in it any more than anywhere else. there IS if you own the publishing company that operates in those areas(:)) or you have a library on one of the big publishers. It's as hard an area to make work as composing for film, games or adverts. Getting noticed is very very difficult as it's a hugely oversubscribed market.

Secondly - there are very many aggressive strategies out there from sync and production companies and having a track record (the eternal catch 22) is the only real way of getting into it. Sending a demo wont work (well - it MIGHT). You'd be better off looking at promotional strategies and doing something very niche. But niche costs and therefore it's a gamble. For example - there is remarkably little interest in stuff recorded with virtual instruments so playing it for real is a good option.... welcome to the world of spending £10k !!

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Ah interesting! No I don't use stylus or anything like that. I only use real instruments - i.e East West gold and / or Omnisphere's real strings section patches - not synthetic in any way just totally 'real' (recorded in a studio in LA with top players). This way my music sounds fairly realistic. It is quite niche too - kind of minimalism with dub beats - lots of strings. Fairly contemporary I think.

I know there is quite alot of money in it though as I have a friend who makes 15k a year at it! Hence my interest. Unfortunately, he's keeping his contacts to himself ( which is understandable) so at the moment I don't know who to send the demo to but may do some googling later.

My old mate Phil tried to get me into library music back in the 80s. I was quite abusive really. I told him that it was a load of old rubbish, that it was like hanging around outside McDonald's waiting for someone to throw half a hamburger away. He told me that there would come a day when the only way to sell music would be if was tacked onto some commercial or somesuch other cornflakes.

I told him that I was a proud artist, that I would never sync so low as to prostitute my gift and sign a pact with the devil and compromise my channel to god, and the universe of beautiful music.

Last I heard of him he owned about 1/32th of habitable Norway. I have a two up two down cottage near the airport

I can't even give my stuff away!

If I had my time again I'd definitely be a plagiarising prostitute like you guys.

Quote ow:

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If I had my time again I'd definitely be a plagiarising prostitute like you guys.

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Good point. I had heard this, that to be really succesful at it you have to be very good at 'plagiarising' - and good enough to stay on the right side of the law!

There's obviously no real skill to it (well you don't have to be Trevor Horn) I just think you've got to be really good at self-promotion and marketing.

Anybody with cubase and a workstation can do it, it's just difficult to get a foot in the door. But that's true of anything nowadays - even McDonald's are choosey. I say quality doesn't matter because when was the last time YOU paid attention to the background music on Come Dine. The quality is pretty much irrelevant.

Quite right White Van Man. Another good tip is that when they ask for revisions, just send them back the same bloomin file a few days later! They never notice and are too embarrassed at their own cloth ears to say anything!!!

Great tips guys, great tips !

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You'd be better off looking at promotional strategies and doing something very niche. But niche costs and therefore it's a gamble. For example - there is remarkably little interest in stuff recorded with virtual instruments so playing it for real is a good option.... welcome to the world of spending £10k !!

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1. There still is some mileage in library music for beginners, but you will have to be able to churn out good stuff at the rate of several tunes every day and pitch extremely low, for the crap end of the market, like home and cheap corporate videos.

2. There is NO interest (at real prices!) in virtual stuff. £10K? Mates rates perhaps!

3. Money in music anywhere? Yep, loads of it! Oodles, in fact. Selling stuff to bedroom musicians. Remember, you are just one piece of gear away from that huge hit!

4. Failing that, you might try talent! Talent and ticking all the boxes! That means you have to be young and good looking, able to play brilliantly, have songs with at least five melody lines in each song, able to play anything, prepared to work 16 hour days, surround yourself with only the very best people and dump the ones who are not pulling their weight, get an agent who eats broken glass and above all - play music people want to hear!

5. Put on a fantastic live show!

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Quote narcoman:

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You'd be better off looking at promotional strategies and doing something very niche. But niche costs and therefore it's a gamble. For example - there is remarkably little interest in stuff recorded with virtual instruments so playing it for real is a good option.... welcome to the world of spending £10k !!

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1. There still is some mileage in library music for beginners, but you will have to be able to churn out good stuff at the rate of several tunes every day and pitch extremely low, for the crap end of the market, like home and cheap corporate videos.

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Btw, I'm sure you weren't referring to me Red, but for the record I'm not a beginner. Hope I haven't given that impression! Friends and family think I have some genuine talent. Maybe I should post an example of the kind of tunes I do to get your opinion? I had one played on local radio (Southern Counties) a few years ago.

Not bragging or anything but I did get a high grade B at O level back in the day and was in fact recommended to do A level by my music teacher. As for instruments? I'm no Roy Castle but I do play guitar reasonably well (approx grade 4) and a little piano too.

So no, not a beginner.

So you're suggesting start low end - corporates and the like - and gradually work my way up the ladder to the likes of Yooka Music and Pump?

What sort of timescale am I looking at? (I am 58)

Thanks for the advice btw.

p.s. I wouldn't be able to do several tunes a day as you said as I have a full time job. More importantly though, I am a perfectionist and would want to spend a full day on a track rather than just churning them out like in a biscuit factory.

Cheers,

Steve

Quote ow:

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the only way to sell music would be if was tacked onto some commercial or somesuch other cornflakes.

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There is no finer, purer or more anonymous way of generating revenue from music than lucking out by somebody using it in a widely distributed advertising campaign! I would far, far rather people knew who was making cornflakes, which were making money for me, than for anybody to know who I was, what I looked like or be able to recognise me in the street. Keep your No.1 single, crawling up to the BBC etc. and your adoring fans, who want to own you for free, as if you were their slave whilst mistakenly thinking you were in some way lucky or privileged. I'd take an invisible slice of bona fide advertising revenue over that nightmare any day. Your friend was a wise man indeed!

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Quote ow:

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the only way to sell music would be if was tacked onto some commercial or somesuch other cornflakes.

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There is no finer, purer or more anonymous way of generating revenue from music than lucking out by somebody using it in a widely distributed advertising campaign!

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+1

Ads is really the thing to be getting into. That pays like 10 quid each time it's shown! If it's shown 5 times a day, 7 days a week...

Well you do the math!

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Quote ow:

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the only way to sell music would be if was tacked onto some commercial or somesuch other cornflakes.

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There is no finer, purer or more anonymous way of generating revenue from music than lucking out by somebody using it in a widely distributed advertising campaign!

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+1

Ads is really the thing to be getting into. That pays like 10 quid each time it's shown! If it's shown 5 times a day, 7 days a week...

Well you do the math!

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Now hold on a New York minute there WCM, that may well be true (and if my maths is correct, that works out to be 250 a week) but not every track is going to earn you mega bucks like that. I know of a few very very successful media composers - real top drawer, these guys have maybe 50 or more tracks placed with top libraries - and they say that maybe 10-20% of their tracks will EARN NOTHING AT ALL! So right away you're looking at 200 quid a week, tops!

Suddenly that career in retail management - where you'll get to travel and possibly even have a company car - doesn't look so bad! lol

Is it 15k?

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Quote ow:

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the only way to sell music would be if was tacked onto some commercial or somesuch other cornflakes.

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There is no finer, purer or more anonymous way of generating revenue from music than lucking out by somebody using it in a widely distributed advertising campaign!

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+1

Ads is really the thing to be getting into. That pays like 10 quid each time it's shown! If it's shown 5 times a day, 7 days a week...

Well you do the math!

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Now hold on a New York minute there WCM, that may well be true (and if my maths is correct, that works out to be 250 a week) but not every track is going to earn you mega bucks like that. I know of a few very very successful media composers - real top drawer, these guys have maybe 50 or more tracks placed with top libraries - and they say that maybe 10-20% of their tracks will EARN NOTHING AT ALL! So right away you're looking at 200 quid a week, tops!

Suddenly that career in retail management - where you'll get to travel and possibly even have a company car - doesn't look so bad! lol

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Yes, but multiply that up times ten - 500 tracks and then it looks amazing! 2k a week!!!!

But I guess it would take maybe decades to reach that number.

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...So no, not a beginner.

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We are all beginners every day, are we not?

btw your stuff must be good because i've been bombarding BBC Southern Counties for ages now and not even a sniff.

You do all that minimalist stuff though, they love all that.

It was a sad day when payola was exposed because at least there was a route in. Now, well, you can't just buy young and cool. I have tried ringing up and talking to them in different voices but they just say that my music is ok but that they've already got one.

I don't know what to do now either now that i'm old too.

I have come up with one new weeze though that you might like to consider. I call it RA Marketing or Russ Andrews Marketing. You might see that I am asking rather high prices for my tracks on Bnadcamp The logic is that I couldn't sell any for a pound, so I may as well not sell any a a thousand pounds.

That's not a bad strategy there ow... I mean work it out, if one person downloads a track for £1000, well you'd need literally dozens of buyers at £1 each to achieve the same amount.

Quote ow:

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...So no, not a beginner.

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You do all that minimalist stuff though, they love all that.

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I think you've hit the nail on the head there OW. My music is in a similar style but strictly minimal.

As I say, I do the beats stuff that's more cutting edge and 'hardcore media friendly' (would be ideal for computer games etc) and perhaps what I'd do if I got a library on board.

But the 'classical side' of me is experimental minimal - I just expand it rather than repeating the same phrase, just develop it and take it to different keys. That's what's wrong with minimalism - they don't go to different keys so it becomes boring. And also, I try and make all my music - without exception - euphoric! This is because there's simply too much serious, depressing, minor-key stuff about. Turn on any BBC documentary and it will surely be some depressing, angst-ridden piano dirge.

Here's one I did recently - again, uplifting. Has to be a market for this somewhere I would have thought even if it's Sunday morning religious shows! As I say, no one listens to music that's on in the background of a show anyway.

Wondrous Dawn

Cheers.

That brought a tear to my eye. It's exactly the sort of thing that i wish i'd written but i just don't have the skills. I can hear the training there, the 'O'Level. It's the difference you hear when George Martin got involved with the Beatles.

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That's not a bad strategy there ow... I mean work it out, if one person downloads a track for £1000, well you'd need literally dozens of buyers at £1 each to achieve the same amount.

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I did the math and i liked it.

White Car Man - that's superb, I can see it working with the current Halifax adverts for example, what with the choir in there. Also, it's a clever choice of key - if D minor is the saddest of all the keys, D Major is surely the happiest ...

Ok, I agree - now hold that thought right there (because this is an excellent real-life test-case), where would 'white car man' send that demo right now to have it considered for the Halifax ad campaign?

Quote ow:

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Ok, I agree - now hold that thought right there (because this is an excellent real-life test-case), where would 'white car man' send that demo right now to have it considered for the Halifax ad campaign?

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Thanks OW, that's precisely what I've been trying to find out.

And thanks for the positive comments guys, like I say, I'm no expert but I'm getting there.

OK, gotta go now as the nightshift beckons. I hate delivering when it's raining

Quote ow:

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Ok, I agree - now hold that thought right there (because this is an excellent real-life test-case), where would 'white car man' send that demo right now to have it considered for the Halifax ad campaign?

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Well this is the kind of place I imagine the Halifax people get their music from:

http://www.qwpm.co.uk/landing/qwpm_landing_018.html

I would think it's pretty competitive to get in, but pain no gain...