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Evie McCreevie



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Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI
      #1071948 - 26/10/13 10:27 AM
Well said Paul. I thought I was alone in my dismay at the look of Logic X.

Along with Paul's arguments about the user-unfriendliness of the look, and how it can't be changed in preferences, it's worth mentioning that part of Apple's argument for the dark GUI was to bring Logic in line with Final Cut etc. As if anyone gives a toss! A good many users may indeed use both programs, but the vast, vast majority don't. There's just no need for the two to look the same - apart from satisfying some designer's ego.

Rather than sending individual complaints, could we start a petition here to get Apple to at least make the GUI colours customisable?


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DAGGILARR



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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1071951 - 26/10/13 10:46 AM
Well to some degree they are LINK

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Bob Bickerton
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1071953 - 26/10/13 11:22 AM
Paul's article smacks of a wind up to generate forum traffic (he says as much) or maybe he DOES need his eyes testing. Personally, I'm really enjoying the new look of Logic, I actually don't like the screen screaming at me and prefer the restrained visuals, which I find easier on the eye and just as clear to read. I actually think Apple designers DO know what they're doing!

Anyway it's old news and was discussed at length when Logic X was released.

Having said that, there would be no harm in having a preference option to change colours for the visually or aesthetically impaired

Bob

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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Bob Bickerton]
      #1071958 - 26/10/13 12:13 PM
Quote Bob Bickerton:

Paul's article smacks of a wind up to generate forum traffic (he says as much) or maybe he DOES need his eyes testing.




It's not a wind up, and it's not to generate forum traffic...and the state of his eyes is known only by his optician! Paul has been complaining to me about this since he installed the first Logic X version on his system some time ago, and several of the Logic users in the SOS offices have reverted independently to running Logic 9 because they find it easier to work with visually -- especially those that work on laptops. The forum comment is simply about adding weight to his discussions with Apple, since waving a stack of complaints from SOS readers via the forum will carry considerable weight at Apple HQ.

H

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ManFromGlass



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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1071962 - 26/10/13 01:32 PM
Ever since I was able to I have set Logics arrange window background to black. For me it makes the other colours pop a bit more and black has a tendency to disappear rather then always be a depressing cool blue etc. I will not be moving to X at any point soon for numerous reasons but this colour issue adds to my reasoning. Besides I'm at the age where I should be more of a cranky curmudgeon than I am!
Cheers
Eric


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chris...
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1071972 - 26/10/13 02:32 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

a stack of complaints from SOS readers via the forum will carry considerable weight at Apple HQ.



Maybe...



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Iain Boyd
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1071973 - 26/10/13 02:40 PM
I was completely thrown by the change in GUI when it came out; the new colours and design seemed to make the unfamiliarity and changes in the layout much worse. After a couple of weeks I got used to it and now prefer the dark look.

But for me the biggest and best change was the upsizing of fonts and other elements. I understand that this may have become worse for laptop users, but I use a 27" iMac and much of the old GUI was headache-inducingly microscopic, and there was no satisfactory way to scale up. On a 21" iMac the scale was much better and I spent much time researching the resolutions of external monitors to try and get the pixel scale of the 21" with the real estate of a 27". But I could never identify a satisfactory solution, not least with the (only recently solved with Mavericks) issues with running multiple monitors.

The new GUI works so much better on a large screen now. 27" seems the 'natural' size if there is such a thing and allows you to have everything visible on one screen. I'm glad I'm not trying to use Logic on a laptop any more; these days I use Garageband on an iPad for 'mobile sketching'.


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Kevin Nolan
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1071974 - 26/10/13 02:46 PM
I haven't read Paul's comments, but agree the colour is too dark. The real issue is that the colour scheme or at least the level of darkness should be user configurable.

There are other issues: there is too much wastage of screen "real estate": the blank gaps at the side and top of mixer track, the size of the fonts, and the amount of wasted space surrounding all text, is quite unbelievable and simply a waste of valuable screen space.

All of this reduces the amount of tracks and amount of other views - especially on Mac Book Pro's. This coupled to the demise of the 17" MBP suggests to me that Apple are not even consulting with professional musician who work in mobile or "on the go" scenarios in such developments - itself worrying w.r.t Apple's long term intentions towards LP.

Overall, the capacity to view in-depth sessions on Logic, and on MBP's in particular, has been diminished. For hobbyists this may not be an issue, but for jobs requiring many tracks, it is.


Kevin


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Paul Nagle
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Kevin Nolan]
      #1071981 - 26/10/13 04:00 PM
With no sign of user config for colours, I bought a new monitor in the hope it would clarify the difference between the dark grey bar lines and darker grey background. So, along with the new OS and Logic X, quite a cash outlay just to obtain a half-arsed implementation of quantize to scale and a few new bugs. Oh, OK, I like the flex pitch - but it's frustrating you have to choose between time and pitch when flexing - I want both!

Grumble, grumble...

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recordplay



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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1071991 - 26/10/13 06:01 PM
I'm not to bothered about the colours (or colors if your from the US) of the GUI its more the fact that nothing really fits on 15" laptop like Logic 9 does. It especially annoys me that I can't get to a software instrument or midi effects very easy because the inspector options get in the way.

Logic X is brill and oozing with new functionality plus all the old bits I love from Logic 9 but it hasn't been thought out for different displays.

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desmond



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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: recordplay]
      #1072000 - 26/10/13 07:55 PM
There has been a trend to darker interfaces for pro software - recent applications that have darkened their interfaces lately include most of the Adobe suite (Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere, After Effects etc), the Apple Pro app framework has moved on from the 90s era small/grey/blue to a darker, larger, retina-supported look (other apps that use the same look include Final Cut Pro X and Motion).

Any a lot of other Pro software in the media & creative industry have dark interfaces, eg Nuke, Scratch, Shake, Resolve, Baselight, Cinema 4D and many many more).

You could make the argument is makes more sense for visual apps as it makes the content you are working on pop - while this is sort of true for a DAW (which is after all, a mostly visual paradigm of manipulating audio) I expect it's more down to Apple's desire make consistency and user-familiarity paramount - an example of this is they needed to get the IOS and OSX versions of Pages to be feature compatible. Instead of adding the missing features to IOS Pages, they simply removed the extra features from the OSX version - very rare for a developer to do something like this (maybe they intend to put these features back in to both versions over time, maybe not.)

Obviously, long time users have many years of former interfaces to get over before they get used to it. I think the new interface is largely ok, but there are areas that are rough and ugly (the plugin headers are atrocious) and there is still work to be done in getting rid of the old tiny GUI interfaces and replacing them. I see LPX as being in (another) transition. I'm not a massive fan of it, but I wasn't a massive fan of LP8/LP9 either. It is what it is, and I'll get used to it, and I hope the rough edges will be polished out and (ideally) more user-customisation options (though this isn't really Apple's way either...)

And yes, LPX is no longer particularly comfortable to use on a regular (non-retina) 15 MBP screen resolution. Although those have just been finally discontinued anyway.


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blue manga



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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: chris...]
      #1072003 - 26/10/13 09:14 PM
Quote chris...:

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

a stack of complaints from SOS readers via the forum will carry considerable weight at Apple HQ.



Maybe...








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ConcertinaChap



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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: chris...]
      #1072019 - 26/10/13 10:30 PM
Quote chris...:

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

a stack of complaints from SOS readers via the forum will carry considerable weight at Apple HQ.



Maybe...






Be fair, that hasn't actually been built yet! When it is, it'll probably be dark grey with black windows.

CC

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chris...
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: desmond]
      #1072050 - 27/10/13 11:32 AM
Quote desmond:

And yes, LPX is no longer particularly comfortable to use on a regular (non-retina) 15 MBP screen resolution. Although those have just been finally discontinued anyway.



Out of interest, what makes it better on a retina screen ? Can you take advantage of the extra resolution by shrinking down the large interface elements some people are complaining are too big, thus fitting more stuff on screen (if your eyes are up to it) ?

Ta

Chris, who hasn't yet used retina display or LPX.


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desmond



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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: chris...]
      #1072071 - 27/10/13 02:45 PM
Quote chris...:

Out of interest, what makes it better on a retina screen ?




I said it's less comfortable on a regular MBP 15 display, as that's what I know - I don't have a retina model. My regular MBP is actually the matte hires option, so it's a higher resolution than a regular MBP and this is fine for LPX - it's also fine for FCPX as well. I find FCPX a bit of a squeeze on a regular MBP 15 as well.

Quote chris...:

Can you take advantage of the extra resolution by shrinking down the large interface elements some people are complaining are too big, thus fitting more stuff on screen (if your eyes are up to it) ?




Yes, as far as I can remember you can use a retina display in full resolution, and with many of LPXs gui elements being much bigger this should be doable as well - except for the old emagic plugin interfaces like ES2/Sculpture/Ultrabeat etc which are probably borderline unusable at this resolution...


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Kevin Nolan
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1072112 - 27/10/13 08:48 PM
You're probably right in all you say Desmond, but there is wasted space within each graphic element in Logic Pro X that wasn't there in LP9. The issue is - these elements should be configurable. Adobe Audition interface is incredibly configurable - in terms of complete colour schemes, shading and density and scale of features on the screen. All of these make it an absolute joy to use - and I do not say that likely - this is software we're talking about so most of us do not go around thinking about the joy of such things. But - Adobe's approach has made using their environment extremely inviting to use.

To me, there is no justification for Apple's current approach to LPX. They should have made a better, different decision - as in - make the interface configurable in colour, shade, density and scale of features. Then everyone would be satisfied (OK we might complain about too many configuration menus :-) ). But we all work differently and this is a Pro application - so they should not be imposing ad-hoc but fixed elements like this.

This sort of intransigence and arrogance in stance has come back to bite other companies in the past; and Apple are "pi****g" to many people off in too many of their technologies IMO for it not to impact upon them in the future.


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desmond



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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Kevin Nolan]
      #1072123 - 27/10/13 09:47 PM
Quote Kevin Nolan:

You're probably right in all you say Desmond, but there is wasted space within each graphic element in Logic Pro X that wasn't there in LP9.




I agree. Whilst I like the FCPX interface a lot and feel it's quite elegant, I feel Logic's is quite rough and ugly in comparison - FCPX was designed with this interface, but Logic already existed and was kinda "shoe-horned" into it, and it doesn't work nearly as neatly as FCPX imo. There are some wins and improvement for sure, but there are also some losses. And I don't even think it's finished, parts feel rushed or badly implemented. Hopefully we'll see some improvements in this area as Logic continues to move forward.

Quote Kevin Nolan:

The issue is - these elements should be configurable.




Well, ideally yes. For me at least. And Logic, back in emagic days, was traditionally always the *most* configurable and flexible daw out there. Power users loved it for that reason. Oh - and it also had the worst reputation for being hard to learn and unintuitive and over-complex. (But then, people often just can't be bothered to make the effort to learn things.) It's very difficult to have power and configurability and still have ease of use and accessibility. Apple's goal has to make Logic less obtuse and more user-friendly, and these are ongoing design changes which, frankly, kinda annoy long-time power users but have found a huge new market for people who would never have known how to make a sound on Logic 5... it's not how I'd prefer they invest their development resources, but hey, it's not my call to make and I'm certainly not qualified to tell them how to run their business.

Quote Kevin Nolan:

To me, there is no justification for Apple's current approach to LPX. They should have made a better, different decision - as in - make the interface configurable in colour, shade, density and scale of features. Then everyone would be satisfied (OK we might complain about too many configuration menus :-) ). But we all work differently and this is a Pro application - so they should not be imposing ad-hoc but fixed elements like this.




Well once again (we've done this dance before, eh?) you want Apple to design by your rules, and not Apple's. Apple's strategies and design making and design and marketing is quite straightforward as to who they are targetting and why. It's no secret. There is plenty of justification should you choose to see it - you just don't like it! You (and I) just aren't really their target market any more.

Apple make the products it makes to serve it's own end, and it's market is not the 0.02% of users who known how to configure a meta-event macro to convert MIDI note-offs into custom plugin parameters via the IAC bus. In short, they are pushing their software to appeal and be more instantly usable to musicians and not engineers - the engineer-ey stuff is still there and can still be used, but it isn't a *requirement* for the guitarist to quickly whip up a backing track to practice to.

I went to a Logic 9 launch Apple event in London a few years back, and Xander Soren was demoing the new Logic and I just kinda sat there face palming a lot of the time at the marketing message. And yet plenty of people there seemed fairly wowed by being able to play a guitar through a virtual amp and record it, so what do I know? The vast userbase of Logic is not pros. To be honest, probably the only daw left that that is true of is probably Pro Tools, possibly Nuendo maybe too.

Quote Kevin Nolan:

This sort of intransigence and arrogance in stance has come back to bite other companies in the past; and Apple are "pi****g" to many people off in too many of their technologies IMO for it not to impact upon them in the future.




Apple are doing just fine. *If* (and this isn't going to happen) all the pro Logic users in the world went "f*** you Apple, we're going to ProTools" how much do you think Apple would hurt over that? (Clue: Not at all.)

Oh - and the grass is no greener anywhere else, either. Think Cubase, Pro Tools, Live, Sonar or whatever else is all roses? (Clue: Not at all.)

I'm not trying to be a Logic or Apple fanboy here, I've been using Logic since 1.x and Creator/Notator before that, and have a long history with Logic and music. I love Logic, I'm glad it's *still* alive and kicking, and that my investment and expertise is still valuable to this day, 20 years on - that's pretty good in software. I don't agree with all of their design decisions (I also don't have their perspective on the inside either) and some of them I've found frustrating and annoying just like other people - it is what it is, I cannot control these things other than stick with a version I'm happy with and don't moan that I'm now missing out on new features or hardware support.

I don't control the design of any of the other products I use on a daily basis either, and some of those frustrate me too but I still manage to get on with things.

Anyway, to come back around - I don't think the problem is really "how dark" the interface is anyway. I think the problem is it's not refined enough and has a lot of rough edges and seemingly poorly thought out, or at least rushed, elements. But the days of Logic being the most powerful, customisable and configurable daw are long gone, as that runs counter to what Apple want to sell to their consumers.

Most of the power though is still there, tucked away under the hood, even if some of the nice cool nerdy stuff has been lost along the way...


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Kevin Nolan
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1072137 - 28/10/13 12:31 AM
As said, many if not all of the points you make Desmond are valid and well considered, but I do think you are being a tad pedantic in your last post (said with generally deep respect for your overall insights!!). Just that - the things people are looking for, and feel are worthing flagging about LPX in particular, were largely there in LP9, are there in many other packages, and are generally ordinary, good requirements, sought only to enable a better work environment. There's very little subjectivity in that. A configurable system satisfies everyone. As said, Adobe Audition is very configurable. This is bread-and-butter stuff we're talking about.

As just one example - the wasted screen "real estate" at the sides of mixer tracks does nothing to enable better seeing, but reduces the possible number of tracks visible per screen. Why isn't that a valid point to flag? It hurts no one to be more efficient in this regard as LP9 was - it's otherwise unused space we're talking about. As said, while it may look and feel OK, it wasn't the situation in LP9 - so for LP9 users this is a retrograde step. I think that's a fairly objective observation.

To me (and this is my subjective opinion but one I suspect there would be broad agreement on), LP9 was an excellent interface - clear, tight, efficient - perhaps one of the very best in all DAWs. LPX is a significant step backwards - and again there seems to be emerging broad consensus on that.


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desmond



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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Kevin Nolan]
      #1072139 - 28/10/13 12:45 AM
Yeah, I don't disagree with the points you are making.

But no, not everyone wants endless configuration options, it just results in option paralysis for many folks. Us geeks love the ability to tailor our environment for ourselves, but I think - no, I *know* we are in the minority.

The amount of people I've seen using Logic over the years without ever setting up custom key commands, using screensets, window linking modes with linked editor windows, user-created environments for their convenience and hardware gear, using default factory-supplied templates instead of creating their own and not even creating environment objects for their MIDI gear so they don't need to continually remember and manually setup every time MIDI ports and channels suggests so. Generally, power users are in the significant minority (as are manual readers!

Most people want to load up and go, and they generally do it in the most simple and direct way they know how, even if it's slow and inefficient.

And this is where Apple live, so you can't be surprised when their products go in that direction.

I have to say that when Apple bought emagic I believed the emagic guys when they said it meant an amazing future for Logic. Well, Logic is still going, and is in the hands of more people than ever, so that's great. However, it seems that Logic has been in a continual state of one transition after another rather than being moved forward as the professional tool it once was, which makes me a little sad. It's still a great tool of course, and is amazing in many ways - it's just I feel like Logic and me are just wanting to go in different directions really...


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Gone To Lunch
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Bob Bickerton]
      #1072140 - 28/10/13 01:13 AM
Quote Bob Bickerton:

.....there would be no harm in having a preference option to change colours for the visually or aesthetically impaired....




There are lots of colour options in Digital Performer....

That I have never tried using.....


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Bob Bickerton
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1072197 - 28/10/13 12:28 PM
I've enjoyed reading this thread. Whilst I don't disagree with what Kevin and Desmond have been saying, perhaps I can talk about my experience more.

I guess I fall into the 'professional user who doesn't want to go anymore in depth than necessary' category. For me I like easy access and whilst I have customized various aspects of Logic (key commands, screen sets, templates, etc) I've tended to leave well alone once I'm set up! I'm one of those people who had to have a cup of tea and a lie down after delving into the environment!

I remember haven't to rejig some MIDI files I was using for playback whilst on tour some years ago and visited a fellow Logic user - I hardly recognized the programme he had configured it to work in such a different way!

There's a lot of talk about Apple ignoring their professional user base, but if don't see it that way. The new Mac Pro is proof of that - hardly a consumer product. I see it more along the lines that Apple want to make their pro products more accessible to users, which is surely expanding the industry and providing more opportunities for people to develop their skill base. Having said that their design department has huge influence over all aspects of the company (thank goodness), which can be interpreted as arrogance.

Kevin the mixer window is fully customizable under view options.

Now can anyone tell me how to select only time and not bars in the arrange ruler? Or are we stuck with both (secondary ruler).

Bob

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desmond



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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Bob Bickerton]
      #1072205 - 28/10/13 01:18 PM
Quote Bob Bickerton:

Now can anyone tell me how to select only time and not bars in the arrange ruler? Or are we stuck with both (secondary ruler).




Project Settings -> General -> Untick "Use musical grid"


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Bob Bickerton
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: desmond]
      #1072248 - 28/10/13 07:18 PM
Quote desmond:

Quote Bob Bickerton:

Now can anyone tell me how to select only time and not bars in the arrange ruler? Or are we stuck with both (secondary ruler).




Project Settings -> General -> Untick "Use musical grid"




Thanks Desmond - you're a star!

Bob

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rACed2



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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: desmond]
      #1072277 - 29/10/13 01:47 AM
Quote:

But no, not everyone wants endless configuration options, it just results in option paralysis for many folks.




I found this happened to me with both Reaper and LogicX: I could no longer even start Reaper as the options overwhelmed me. The solution LogicX was nearly as bad - I found that a couple of sessions into the demo project and I was overwhelmed again - to the point where I would not even try playing the organ let alone even record something.

Next solution has been a 27" thunderbolt monitor no sitting on top of the organ next to the 21" imac - two desktops on the 27" display Logic in one Reaper the other. Started by trying to create a template in Logic which would route the 14 used inputs (12 stereo, 2 mono) of my rme through Logic back to totalmix as 14 software inputs so far I've got as far as getting the organ (2 inputs) to do it and rather than frustrate myself further just started recording that as it is. At this rate maybe by LogicL I'll have worked out the inputs for the synths and mixer and can start on the MIDI

Sad but at least I'm starting to play again.


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Tui
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1072283 - 29/10/13 06:36 AM
I expected LX to look as dark and gothic as it did in the end. FCPX gave a clear indication of where Apple is at atm. However, I find it strange that so many fall in line with design choices made FOR them, rather than requesting at least a say in it. Perhaps forums and message boards are largely populated by fanboys and trolls... No, scrap that, they definitely are. You just don't get a fair representation of what the majority thinks or wants. Even if you would, I would like to emphasise the issue of choice, or rather, the lack of it. Majority rule is fine in politics, yet, even there, minorities are catered for to some extent. Unless you live in North Korea.

With something like a DAW, it is as if the developers were trying to tell me what visual and aesthetic preferences I'm supposed to have. In my choices of clothes, furniture or other items, I often prefer lighter shades and pastel colours. I avoid grey and stark black-and-white contrast. That's just the way I am, and I'm quite happy with it. Now, when I work on my music, I may spend 10 hours solid with looking at one thing only: My screen. If I hate what I see - I hate LX's stock GUI - I'm not going to be happy, and I wont be able to work as well as I could or be as creative as I could be. That's a fact that should be obvious to anyone.

So, I guess my question is, why would a corporation like Apple not provide a few choices, in order to appeal to more people? Wouldn't that make good business sense, too?

BTW, I find it distasteful to insinuate, as someone did, that Paul White raised this issue in his column for any other reason than stating his opinion and reflecting the opinions of many longstanding Logic users.


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Bob Bickerton
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Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Tui]
      #1072313 - 29/10/13 11:39 AM
Quote Tui:

BTW, I find it distasteful to insinuate, as someone did, that Paul White raised this issue in his column for any other reason than stating his opinion and reflecting the opinions of many longstanding Logic users.




It was me and when I said "Paul's article smacks of a wind up to generate forum traffic (he says as much)" I based that comment on Paul's quote: "and if you agree then you need to make your opinions known, both by emailing the manufacturers and by having a good old rant in our forums".

I'd have thought inviting people to 'have a good old rant in our forums' would result in more forum traffic? No?

The rest of my original post is about as serious as Paul's suggestion that the next version might be "black text on a black background" - if that's not winding people up I don't know what is.

Of course, it's an opinion piece ( and not a good one in my opinion) and such things should not be taken too seriously, or defended too rigorously

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz


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blue manga



Joined: 16/09/06
Posts: 2170
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Tui]
      #1072319 - 29/10/13 12:18 PM
Quote Tui:


So, I guess my question is, why would a corporation like Apple not provide a few choices, in order to appeal to more people? Wouldn't that make good business sense, too?




Not necessarily



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Kevin Nolan
member


Joined: 12/01/03
Posts: 792
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1072707 - 01/11/13 01:35 AM
I just downloaded the 30 Day free trial of MOTU DP8 (on the guidance of the excellent article on it in SOS this month).

I have never used DP before - but- not only does it seem incredibly more straight forward than Logic - but it offers enormous choice of configuration of the GUI:

- What components to view
- Where they are situated within the DAW environment / screen
- Colour schemes and Themes which actually render GUI components such as knobs, buttons and faders different for each theme


Furthermore - it is instantly recognisable that DP can handle as many unique hardware MIDI input channels as there are ports and MIDI channels attached you your computer (Logic is limited to 16 MIDI input hardware streams!).

To the poster above my post here - you are completely wrong. The GUI is vital to work flow, creativity and efficiency. I am amazed at how flexible DP is - it is significantly superior to Logic in almost every regard from what I can see, save the bundled instruments. But as a DAW, it seems light years ahead of Logic.

I'm actually shocked. I've never used another DAW than Logic Pro (apart from Adobe Audition); and cannot believe what a complete dogs-dinner Apple have made of Logic when compared to DP. If it were not for Logic's bundled instruments I'd abandon it utterly, now. I'll hang onto it for the time being but at the first available financial opportunity, I will definitely acquire DP8 too. I've genuinely just tried it tonight, and I'm amazed (the SOS article on DP8 emphasises several times a learning curve associated with DP - but to me, even after only a few hours, it seems incredibly straight forward compared to Logic).


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clisma



Joined: 02/03/06
Posts: 207
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: blue manga]
      #1072710 - 01/11/13 03:09 AM
Quote blue manga:

Quote Tui:


So, I guess my question is, why would a corporation like Apple not provide a few choices, in order to appeal to more people? Wouldn't that make good business sense, too?




Not necessarily






+1

And that is an awesome way to make your point!

--------------------
Just a piano and some sketch paper please...


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clisma



Joined: 02/03/06
Posts: 207
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Kevin Nolan]
      #1072711 - 01/11/13 03:24 AM
Quote Kevin Nolan:

I just downloaded the 30 Day free trial of MOTU DP8 (on the guidance of the excellent article on it in SOS this month).

I have never used DP before - but- not only does it seem incredibly more straight forward than Logic - but it offers enormous choice of configuration of the GUI:

- What components to view
- Where they are situated within the DAW environment / screen
- Colour schemes and Themes which actually render GUI components such as knobs, buttons and faders different for each theme


Furthermore - it is instantly recognisable that DP can handle as many unique hardware MIDI input channels as there are ports and MIDI channels attached you your computer (Logic is limited to 16 MIDI input hardware streams!).

I'm actually shocked. I've never used another DAW than Logic Pro (apart from Adobe Audition); and cannot believe what a complete dogs-dinner Apple have made of Logic when compared to DP. If it were not for Logic's bundled instruments I'd abandon it utterly, now. I'll hang onto it for the time being but at the first available financial opportunity, I will definitely acquire DP8 too. I've genuinely just tried it tonight, and I'm amazed (the SOS article on DP8 emphasises several times a learning curve associated with DP - but to me, even after only a few hours, it seems incredibly straight forward compared to Logic).




I grew up on DP and have used it since its early incarnations before all the audio stuff was part of the package. You might have a nice honeymoon with it, sure, but it's not all roses. It does several things (some of which you've mentioned) far better than Logic for sure - my favorite being the amazing tempo/marker features and pre-rendering - but for me, working with MIDI is definitely more cumbersome and requires far more interaction than I am willing to give on a tight deadline. The quickscribe (notation) is nowhere near as good as in Logic, at least in terms of layout and getting ready-for-performance parts. The included VIs to me sound inferior and so do the FX plugs (with a couple of very usable exceptions). The GUI template options for me simply seem overkill. I don't mind them, but then again, I picked one, set it, and left it. I do appreciate that they introduced zooming functions in the main window (after years and years!!) and I can finally bloody zoom in on my MIDI properly...

I still use both on a regular basis, but for an everyday use, just get-on-with-it DAW, I prefer Logic. If I'm synching to picture DP all the way.

--------------------
Just a piano and some sketch paper please...


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9140
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Kevin Nolan]
      #1072741 - 01/11/13 11:37 AM
Quote Kevin Nolan:

I have never used DP before - but- not only does it seem incredibly more straight forward than Logic - but it offers enormous choice of configuration of the GUI:




Good, I'm glad you've found something that works for you. We all differ in our tastes and requirements, and if DP ticks those things for you, then great.

I like it, it's a good tool, I am not too familiar with it and there are things I definitely don't like about it - small, fiddly controls, the need to have separate instrument and MIDI tracks, and I find the front end needlessly over-complex - but there are some great tools in there for sure, and it's certainly every bit as capable DAW as any other of the big ones. They are all broadly the same, none of them are superior, you just need to find the ones that tick your boxes in the way you like.

If you go with it, I'd be interested in your findings after working with it for some months, and getting over the initial learning curve and stuff.


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stug111



Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 9
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1072753 - 01/11/13 12:30 PM
Some excellent points made by Bob and Desmond in this thread. For me, I guess I fall squarely in the 90+ percentage of non pro users. I have only used Logic since early version 9, and I absolutely love what Apple have done with version X. This is a fantastic DAW for me, the only one I have tried that I actually get work done on instead of endlessly fiddling. With my old eyes (53 and sans glasses!) Logic looks great on my 15 MBP, and my desktop.
I have no doubt there are pro users wanting more options, and I really hope they get them, but as far as the dark interface is concerned.. I really like it.


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G-Doubleyou



Joined: 10/02/06
Posts: 1460
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1072818 - 01/11/13 06:37 PM
Doesn't really bother me.

In general the interfaces to all my creative apps are now darker, companies were actually listening to their PRO users who were screaming for darker interfaces.

Avid, Adobe, Cakewalk, Steinberg, tough to find lighter interfaces these days.



Did I mention 3D apps?

I've moved on, to real issues.

--------------------
G-Dub
Studio G-fx 15inch quad-core i7 Macbook Pro Logic9.1.8, LPX 10.0.3


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Kevin Nolan
member


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Posts: 792
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: G-Doubleyou]
      #1072907 - 02/11/13 04:17 PM
Quote G-Doubleyou:

Doesn't really bother me.

In general the interfaces to all my creative apps are now darker, companies were actually listening to their PRO users who were screaming for darker interfaces.

Avid, Adobe, Cakewalk, Steinberg, tough to find lighter interfaces these days.



Did I mention 3D apps?

I've moved on, to real issues.




Could you cite an example post / thread calling for a darker interface - I'm keen to read it?

And - what have you moved on to; and what are those real issues?


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Tui
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Posts: 3307
Loc: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1072954 - 03/11/13 05:12 AM
Don't bother, Kevin... As I said earlier, fanboys and trolls.

I commend Paul White for picking up on this issue. He, like pretty much everybody who has complained about the new GUI, did not ask for a lighter interface to suit his personal needs only. Rather, he asked for choices to suit the needs of a diverse group of people. Some may indeed work in darkrooms, but many don't. Some may appreciate grey writing on black backgrounds, some don't.

Apple might actually listen to someone like Paul.


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ConcertinaChap



Joined: 20/07/05
Posts: 2688
Loc: Bradford on Avon
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Tui]
      #1072965 - 03/11/13 10:44 AM
Quote Tui:

Apple might actually listen to someone like Paul.






CC

--------------------
Remember: Tidy wires are happy wires!
Mr Punch's Studio


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MarkOne



Joined: 15/02/07
Posts: 1154
Loc: Bristol, England, Earth, Perus...
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Evie McCreevie]
      #1073074 - 03/11/13 10:51 PM
Ok. While we are on the subject for poor choice of colour scheme for old git's eyesight. Perhaps our gracious hosts should put their own house in order too.

The orange-on-white captioning font below the photos in the Jonathan Wilson interview is a particularly egregious example of "let's make it REALLY hard to read"

Glass houses... Stones... Etc.

--------------------
New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary


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Paul White
SOS Editor-in-Chief


Joined: 15/11/01
Posts: 124
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: stug111]
      #1073195 - 04/11/13 05:58 PM
While accepting that a darker interface is in many ways a matter of artistic taste, the readability or otherwise of black text on a dark grey background is surely not open to dispute. I can read all the white text in Logic quite easily without reading glasses but even on my studio machine the black text in the area to the left of the Arrange (Main) screen is all but invisible. On my Macbook Pro I can't read it at all and in the presence of ambient light I can't even see that there is any text. This is not a matter of opinion, taste or whatever — it is a a fact — I can't actually read it - end of story. In most respects the other areas of darker interface don't bother me too much other than the reduced visibility (less contrast) of the muted colours in the piano roll editor. Surely readable text isn't too much to ask?


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Bob Bickerton
active member


Joined: 20/12/02
Posts: 3146
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Paul White]
      #1073211 - 04/11/13 08:14 PM
Nothing wrong with having coloured options (all relative font sizes seem to be the same anyway) but I'm finding it hard to discover any fonts which are actually unreadable even on a high resolution MacBook Pro (but I do use reading glasses all the time). Certainly there'd be a similar rant if the interface reverted to the old style, which already looks bright and gaudy under low light studio conditions (in my opinion).

Of more concern to me, and if SOS does have influence at Apple, is the demise of Waveburner. This is still my go to app for compiling CD masters, a straight forward fast and efficient way of sorting out an album.

In the meantime I highly recommend this website

Bob (actually and seriously that's a very good site for us ageing, visually challenged jurassics - running for cover as he speaks........)

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9140
Re: Paul White's leader column/ Logic X dark GUI new [Re: Bob Bickerton]
      #1073215 - 04/11/13 09:14 PM
Quote Bob Bickerton:

Of more concern to me, and if SOS does have influence at Apple, is the demise of Waveburner.




Optical media is essentially dead as far as Apple are concerned. They also EOL'd DVD Studio Pro and iDVD, and it won't be long before no Macs ship with optical drives (they are being phased out slowly).

So the liklihood of that coming back is nil, I'm afraid...


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