I'm sometimes very frustrated by iOS incompatibility with adobe flash. I really enjoy my iPad but lots of music related web apps are using FLASH and my iPad is unable to run them. No mater if the the problem is apple versus adobe or adobe versus apple, it seems that this issue will never be fixed.

So I'm seriously considering the Google Nexus 7. Shame on Apple and shame on Adobe. Why this stupid thing is still going on ? Anyway. Seems that the problem will be solved with the new Nexus 7. Powerful and affordable and works with no limitation. Great news.

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intel iMac 20"/10.6.7, 2 GB ram, Logic Pro 9.1.5, Pro Tools 8.5, PropellerHead Record, Mbox2 PRO

Quote stratquebec:

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it seems that this issue will never be fixed.

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Yes fixed - with proper standards-based websites - ie. ones that don't rely on "flash".

Quote:

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Nexus 7. Powerful and affordable and works with no limitation

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Maybe, but unlikely to have flash for long...

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/11/09/adobe-discontinues-development-on-mobi le-flash/

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/29/adobe-to-end-new-installs-of-flash-on- android-as-of-august-15/

I can't see it being much use if they don't sort out the System audio latency issues.. and Flash is on it's way out anyway

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MBP 17", PC 100(Nubus Protools) Motu 896, X-Station, Logic9, Reason6, Korg legacy, ACE, Alchemy, Emax II, E-Synth, Evolver MEK, Waldorf Pulse and Blofeld, AS Telemark, AS Leipzig-S

Oh boys! Wow! Now tha's the real good news. Shame on me to not being aware of that. So the good news is : I was wrong all the way! Shame on me And you guys made me save 300 bucks!

" Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind. "
Steve Jobs


I'm happy again Steve ! R.I.P.

Edited by stratquebec (30/06/12 06:35 PM)

I keep being told Flash is so yesterday and HTML5 is the kiddie, though how long it will be before Flash is just seen alongside Ancient Egyptian artefacts in the museum, some time yet seeing as Flash is just about everywhere

Quote OneWorld:

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I keep being told Flash is so yesterday and HTML5 is the kiddie, though how long it will be before Flash is just seen alongside Ancient Egyptian artefacts in the museum, some time yet seeing as Flash is just about everywhere

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Good point . What will happen to all those flash applications once Adobe had pulled their plug-in's plug out?

The mySpace developers should not be very happy of the Adobe decision...

I think you're right: it's good news in the long term but for now, iPad and iPhone users are still disadvantaged and let in the dark...

Um... Seems, I will need to get that Nexus anyway...

Any company that still uses flash on their site is behind the curve. I am looking at you, NI...

Quote Chevytraveller:

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I can't see it being much use if they don't sort out the System audio latency issues.. and Flash is on it's way out anyway

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Agreed. I don't really enjoy the iPad for Internet use, but it's better than any android rubbish. It's really a lot less useful than a real laptop though.

For reading magazines it's good, and for music apps. But emails, web, files ... It's just a bit crap.

Also bear in mind that MS won't support Flash on forthcoming IE10 in any mobile capacity - desktop only this time with the implication being 'and not after that'.

Flash was an important web technology. About 10 years ago...

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote stratquebec:

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What will happen to all those flash applications once Adobe had pulled their plug-in's plug out?

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What applications ? Go on - enlighten me. What killer apps am I missing out on ?

Quote:

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The mySpace developers should not be very happy of the Adobe decision...

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My what ?

Quote:

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iPad and iPhone users are still disadvantaged and let in the dark...

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It's not dark here, and I don't feel disadvantaged (but clearly don't know what I'm missing out on!)

As for desktop Mac OSX making flash an optional extra in the last year or two, I was doing just fine without it, till I realised no Google Maps. So had to install it. But that's about the only thing I miss on the desktop, and isn't an issue on iDevices, since there's a native app.

Sir I won't enumerate all sites that have a flash section in their web page that my iPad cannot access and display the annoying warniing that flash is required etc etc. There are so many, music related or not, the list would be too long. Among them, is myspace.

I find it very frustrating having to wait to be back home to be able to visit those sites on my iMac.

My concern is simple to understand and there's no need to try to minimise the issue. It's annoying for many iPad, iPhone users. Good for you if you're not one of them.

Peace.

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intel iMac 20"/10.6.7, 2 GB ram, Logic Pro 9.1.5, Pro Tools 8.5, PropellerHead Record, Mbox2 PRO

Sorry - I just meant to give a few obvious examples, not every site in existence!

You'd already mentioned myspace. (hadn't realised anyone still used that - but can see an iPad isn't very useful for someone who does)

You also mentioned "apps", which I'd thought were different from "sites", hence am interested to know what I'm missing out on (or at least some examples).

Furthermore, it's possible some people on here may be able to suggest non-flash alternatives, especially if some of these apps are effectively utilities, as opposed to sites hosting specific content, like myspace.

Just a thought.

Ta

Quote Tui:

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Any company that still uses flash on their site is behind the curve. I am looking at you, NI...

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...and WeTransfer... surprisingly!

No problems Chris. I was looking for a new car months ago, a Mazda was considered. Try www.mazda.uk ... Many commercial sites still use flash and they will have to re- write parts of their sites if they want to stay reachable on mobile devives, and it will be the same issue for all iOS, Andoid etc users.

Funny thing is, what was considered a marginal concern expressed only by Apple's iOS users, will become a general issue ! So now things should change quickly. Job was right, as usual.

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intel iMac 20"/10.6.7, 2 GB ram, Logic Pro 9.1.5, Pro Tools 8.5, PropellerHead Record, Mbox2 PRO


Edited by stratquebec (01/07/12 03:29 PM)

Quote stratquebec:

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Funny thing is, what was considered a marginal concern expressed only by Apple's iOS users, will become a general issue ! So now things should change quickly.

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I'm not sure I'd say "marginal concern". I think things have, by and large, already changed. The huge number of people with iDevices has seen to that.

A few more sites (mazda and myspace?) may get there in the end.

Quote Tui:

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Any company that still uses flash on their site is behind the curve. I am looking at you, NI...

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I know it is popular to bash NI, but their website is now flash free (has been for a few weeks) and is usable on an iPad.

Quote Michiel:

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I know it is popular to bash NI, but their website is now flash free (has been for a few weeks)

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No it's not:

Quote Michiel:

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is usable on an iPad.

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Maybe, I don't have an iPad.

Quote Michiel:

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is usable on an iPad.

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Yes their site works fine on my iPad.

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intel iMac 20"/10.6.7, 2 GB ram, Logic Pro 9.1.5, Pro Tools 8.5, PropellerHead Record, Mbox2 PRO

Quote stratquebec:

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Quote Michiel:

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is usable on an iPad.

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Yes their site works fine on my iPad.

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I guess jobs was right after all.

Flash is a stain on the Internet and the sooner it dies the better.

Hopefully it will take android with it.

Quote johnny h:

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Hopefully it will take android with it.

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Highly doubtful. Android is the most popular OS in the West.

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I'm All Ears.

Flash is dead and even Adobe are killing it.

"We will no longer continue to develop Flash Player in the browser to work with new mobile device configurations (chipset, browser, OS version, etc.) following the upcoming release of Flash Player 11.1 for Android and BlackBerry PlayBook"

http://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2011/11/flash-focus.html

"Devices that do not have Flash Player already installed are increasingly likely to be incompatible with Flash Player and will no longer be able to install it from the Google Play Store after August 15th."

http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplayer/2012/06/flash-player-and-android-update .html

There will be no flash on Jelly Bean.

So given that Gartner think that mobile web access is set to overtake PC based access in a couple of years, who wants a flash website now?

http://appscout.pcmag.com/mobile-apps/270843-gartner-mobile-web-to-overtak e-desktop-by-2013

Steve

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arK music

Quote ken long:

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Quote johnny h:

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Hopefully it will take android with it.

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Highly doubtful. Android is the most popular OS in the West.

---

Only because it's a cheap imitation of ios. Free imitation, in fact. Microsoft know a thing or two about programming and they might well start carving chunks out of it.

It remains to be seen how much longer google will throw away money on a product which is inquestionably inferior to its rivals.

Quote johnny h:

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It remains to be seen how much longer google will throw away money on a product which is inquestionably inferior to its rivals.

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The money Google pumps into Android is repaid thousands of times over by all of that traffic that goes through google servers, building profiles of all of its customers, linked to their gmail accounts and much of their browsing habits and delivered back to them with location and interest specific advertising.

Android only needs to be good enough and free enough to dissuade Samsung and HTC from developing their own phone operating systems and it can continue to lag iOS because Apple doesn't make cheap phones.

I'd say on the whole - from Google's point of view - Android is a rip-roaring success.

Of course, nothing lasts forever, but will anything change in the next five years? Not holding my breath ...

Steve

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arK music

Quote johnny h:

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Microsoft know a thing or two about programming and they might well start carving chunks out of it.

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ROFLMAO

I might be considered by some to be an Apple Fanboi, but even I can see that Android will dominate completely for the foreseeable future. Sadly, MS have seriously lost their way. I understand that their games console is ok though. Says it all really...

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote johnny h:

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Quote ken long:

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Quote johnny h:

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Hopefully it will take android with it.

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Highly doubtful. Android is the most popular OS in the West.

---

Only because it's a cheap imitation of ios. Free imitation, in fact. Microsoft know a thing or two about programming and they might well start carving chunks out of it.

It remains to be seen how much longer google will throw away money on a product which is inquestionably inferior to its rivals.

---

<Dons flame retardant jacket>



Well both are Linux (I should have stated Unix knockoffs... I apologize) just one is cheaper than the other hence it's gaining market share faster which has resulted in Driod now being the popular portable OS in the world as far as the sales figures for the last year goes and overall market penetration. Also the is a lot of comparisons now that are putting the features & functionality of the IOS 5 behind ICS 4, but sure keep beliving that Apples miles ahead of the game on this if you want.

Apples hardware and software intrigration is great and still the best in the market place so still no arguement there. The functionality (in that things work well) is still the best in regards to things just working together, but that is more down to Googles continued inability to keep everyone on the same page OS wise than a lack of any killer features on the platform itself.

I fully expect IOS 6 to move ahead and Jellybean when it lands in the next few months will then edge ahead again. This is a good thing, if Android hadn't cought up then Apple would have rested on it's laurels slightly more than it has done and in that respect it's good for everyone that each firm keeps the other moving forward with the OS development. Intel vs AMD & ATI Vs Nvidia have both proved that for a platform to move forward you need strong competition between the key market leaders.

The day either OS drops off the radar will be a very, very bad day for the market as everyone looses if one of them wins outright...

Speaking of which MS mobiles. Well it's going to be interesting but the as the only hardware maker that really believes in it and supports it likely to be sunk by it, it may already prove a dead duck. Which is a shame as everyone I know who's used one says they are excellent and the reviews tend to back it up. I can see Nokia becoming another MS hardware arm in the next 18 months tbh.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Well both are Linux knockoffs...

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Instant fail. One has Linux codebase, the other is based on BSD. Not the same thing....

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Yeah, I came back to correct that... Ok both stem from Unix as does pretty much everything these days. Doesn't really detract from the overall point I was making through, and in fact it kinda proves it! You can pretty much point at anything and accuse it of being a imitation off of something else...

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Iv'e had Click to Flash on Safari on my MBP for a while now; it's a godsend to stop annoying vids etc being ... well ... annoying! You just click when you want something in Flash.

To the point of the thread: I've noticed that more and more you get a choice of Flash and HTML 5 for the same content, especially videos. I tend to prefer the way Flash works and loads, though.

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PA stuff on FB

Quote Guy Johnson:

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Iv'e had Click to Flash on Safari on my MBP for a while now; it's a godsend to stop annoying vids etc being ... well ... annoying! You just click when you want something in Flash.

To the point of the thread: I've noticed that more and more you get a choice of Flash and HTML 5 for the same content, especially videos. I tend to prefer the way Flash works and loads, though.

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Thanks, very useful app.

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote johnny h:

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Quote ken long:

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Quote johnny h:

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Hopefully it will take android with it.

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Highly doubtful. Android is the most popular OS in the West.

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Only because it's a cheap imitation of ios. Free imitation, in fact. Microsoft know a thing or two about programming and they might well start carving chunks out of it.

It remains to be seen how much longer google will throw away money on a product which is inquestionably inferior to its rivals.

---

<Dons flame retardant jacket>



Well both are Linux (I should have stated Unix knockoffs... I apologize) just one is cheaper than the other hence it's gaining market share faster which has resulted in Driod now being the popular portable OS in the world as far as the sales figures for the last year goes and overall market penetration. Also the is a lot of comparisons now that are putting the features & functionality of the IOS 5 behind ICS 4, but sure keep beliving that Apples miles ahead of the game on this if you want.

Apples hardware and software intrigration is great and still the best in the market place so still no arguement there. The functionality (in that things work well) is still the best in regards to things just working together, but that is more down to Googles continued inability to keep everyone on the same page OS wise than a lack of any killer features on the platform itself.

---

As I said, a cheap imitation

Quote:

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I fully expect IOS 6 to move ahead and Jellybean when it lands in the next few months will then edge ahead again. This is a good thing, if Android hadn't cought up then Apple would have rested on it's laurels slightly more than it has done and in that respect it's good for everyone that each firm keeps the other moving forward with the OS development. Intel vs AMD & ATI Vs Nvidia have both proved that for a platform to move forward you need strong competition between the key market leaders.

The day either OS drops off the radar will be a very, very bad day for the market as everyone looses if one of them wins outright...

Speaking of which MS mobiles. Well it's going to be interesting but the as the only hardware maker that really believes in it and supports it likely to be sunk by it, it may already prove a dead duck. Which is a shame as everyone I know who's used one says they are excellent and the reviews tend to back it up. I can see Nokia becoming another MS hardware arm in the next 18 months tbh.

---

MS have the money and the experience to make it work. Google have a lot of money .. but that's all. They have shown to be entirely incompetent in running a web store, have no idea how to attract the top tier of developers and have totally failed to keep a consistent, reliable minimum standard of hardware / software compatibility.

Its all very well saying you have great market share, but what is their market? Mostly very cheap, throwaway devices which make very little profit and are sold to people who clearly don't have the means and/or desire to spend money and therefore offer little to google's advertising partners.

Quote Guy Johnson:

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Iv'e had Click to Flash on Safari on my MBP for a while now; it's a godsend ...

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I use it too! A godsend indeed! But, I dream of the day when I'll no longuer need it!

I found Soundcloud didn't like the Click to Flash extension. Plus following problems with youtube's HTML 5 test I just stopped using click to flash.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Quote Richie Royale:

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I found Soundcloud didn't like the Click to Flash extension. Plus following problems with youtube's HTML 5 test

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That's weird - I thought the whole idea of Youtube HTML5 test is to not use flash!

Click to Flash is very stable here on Safari and 10.6. Just make you use the latest version.

Quote johnny h:

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As I said, a cheap imitation

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By that logic, Apple is also a shoddy knock off of Unix and everyone should migrate back to that.

Quote johnny h:

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Its all very well saying you have great market share, but what is their market? Mostly very cheap, throwaway devices which make very little profit and are sold to people who clearly don't have the means and/or desire to spend money and therefore offer little to google's advertising partners.

---

The biggest selling single droid model is currently the S2 with close to 30 million sales over it's year and a bit life cycle. In quite a few markets it outsold the iPhone and it is neither a cheap or underpowered device. The S3 looks like it's going to smash those sales figures and Samsungs Smart phone business was worth a 1/3rd more than Apples last year in total across all models.

Profit doesn't come into this discussion. Apple holds a certain margin on all products and won't let people discount where as everyone else is a free for all creating an artifical sense of worth and value around the product which isn't all that an uncommon ploy. Just because Apple demands X% on every single sale doesn't make another device that only commands 1/3 of the mark up any less of a device it's simply that retailers are willing to price war it out to get business... believe me if the was any way at all that people could discount Apple kit and still maintain stock levels and make money they would do it in a heart beat.

Yes, the are lots of cheap droids. The are also models that cost more and out perform any Apple device out there so I don't really get your point. Is it wrong that firms want to target different market segments with different features and price points? I thought that was business 101? And as for those people buying cheap handsets not spending money... who do you think spends stupid amounts on ringtones, games and downloads for the handsets? I'd say it's unlikely to be you or me, but all those kids with a cheap handset their parents got them for xmas are the ones driving microtransaction based firms.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote johnny h:

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As I said, a cheap imitation

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By that logic, Apple is also a shoddy knock off of Unix and everyone should migrate back to that.

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Nobody ever used that in the consumer world. Real people don't care about how it works. Just that it works.

Quote:

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Quote johnny h:

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Its all very well saying you have great market share, but what is their market? Mostly very cheap, throwaway devices which make very little profit and are sold to people who clearly don't have the means and/or desire to spend money and therefore offer little to google's advertising partners.

---

The biggest selling single droid model is currently the S2 with close to 30 million sales over it's year and a bit life cycle. In quite a few markets it outsold the iPhone and it is neither a cheap or underpowered device. The S3 looks like it's going to smash those sales figures and Samsungs Smart phone business was worth a 1/3rd more than Apples last year in total across all models.

Profit doesn't come into this discussion.

---

Why doesn't it come into this discussion?

Do you believe google / samsung / whoever to be selling their products for less than optimum prices?

Believe me, if they could sell a S2 for twice the price of an iPhone and make more profit, that's what the price would be. But they can't. Some of these phones cost more in components and yet sell for half the price of the iPhone. Why? Because people won't pay any more for them! Because they aren't as good. The exact components of what constitutes 'good' is open for debate, but what isn't open for debate is that consumers value the hardware / software / design far more highly than any mix of android.

Quote:

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Yes, the are lots of cheap droids. The are also models that cost more and out perform any Apple device out there so I don't really get your point. Is it wrong that firms want to target different market segments with different features and price points? I thought that was business 101? And as for those people buying cheap handsets not spending money... who do you think spends stupid amounts on ringtones, games and downloads for the handsets? I'd say it's unlikely to be you or me, but all those kids with a cheap handset their parents got them for xmas are the ones driving microtransaction based firms.

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Of course businesses can make money out of low income and/or low spending customers, but the potential is always going to be limited.

Just think how valuable that iTunes credit card list is.

Quote chris...:

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Quote Richie Royale:

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I found Soundcloud didn't like the Click to Flash extension. Plus following problems with youtube's HTML 5 test

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That's weird - I thought the whole idea of Youtube HTML5 test is to not use flash!

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Sorry the short post compounded two things there.

With click to flash, I found that soundcloud didn't cooperate.

At the same time I was getting problems with youtube, however I found that if I clicked on the preferences and opted out of their HTML 5 test then videos would load quickly and smoothly. The HTML 5 issue was causing all kinds of glitches, slow starts and on some occaisions shutting a tab down left the audio playing.

Using click to flash with youtube, before I switched off HTML 5 still left me with problems, so I just switched it off eventually. I don't really have any problems with Flash on my Mac Pro though.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Quote johnny h:

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Nobody ever used that in the consumer world. Real people don't care about how it works. Just that it works.

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Exactly. So your the vast majority of smartphone users who don't buy an Apple product are willing to put up with an OS you consider terrible because they can't afford something better?

The core Droid OS works very well now. It's the store that still sucks and terrible 3rd party apps are still terrible. Do I want a closed wall store solution where everything is at Apples mercy in order to attempt to fix it? Not personally, althrough I can understand why some users might.

Quote johnny h:

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Why doesn't it come into this discussion?

Do you believe google / samsung / whoever to be selling their products for less than optimum prices?

Believe me, if they could sell a S2 for twice the price of an iPhone and make more profit, that's what the price would be. But they can't. Some of these phones cost more in components and yet sell for half the price of the iPhone. Why? Because people won't pay any more for them! Because they aren't as good.

---

I belive that they are taking far less margin on each phone than Apple and each retailer is taking less money althrough in the Europe at least that's not uncommon as the money is made on the contract. The was a situation during the Apple launch phase where they were even claiming a percentage of the contract profit back from the cellphone companies (or at least they were in the states... donno if it applied here?) which is unheard of with any other company. They created hype and limited availability by restricting who could sell it and then charging them a premium for the privilige in a situation where any other firm would have been told to do one.

In fact they were : http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/29/verizon-passed-up-apple-iphone-deal/

So why are everyone else willing to do it? Because Apple was in the lead and everyone else was on catch up and they had to fight against the Apple marketing juggernaught.

Apples business plan was/is take an exisiting idea that has yet to take off, make it simple and friendly to use and then build an eco system round it make it the standard before anyone else can move... they then lock it off and maximise profits by any means they can. It's great they can take a marginal tech and market it to the mainstream, and hats off to them for doing so but it's also their un-doing as not everyone wants to get entangled in their eco system.

Back to the inital point most shops have target margins on most products. Apples own mark up is far higher than anyone elses and on the average phone a shop will make far less on a Apple handset but they still stock them because X amount of people want them and will buy only them so it's commerical suicide not too.

And finally your final point. What about all the people who simply don't wish to pay out what Apple feels like charging? Sure I'd like a Lamborghini, but for what I acturly require a Ford Focus would do the job well. Does that mean I have no speanding power? No, it just means I have better things to spend my money on than something with a sky high perceived value no matter how pretty it looks sat on the drive. Sure the are people out there who need / appreciate the design and engineering enough to be willing to pay for it but then it won't bet you down the shops any quicker during rush hour.

Quote johnny h:

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The exact components of what constitutes 'good' is open for debate, but what isn't open for debate is that consumers value the hardware / software / design far more highly than any mix of android.

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No. Consumers who buy Apple value the Apple Hardware / software / Design far more highly than any mix of Android.

Are you seriously tell me the other 70% of the smartphone market have iPhone envy?

Quote johnny h:

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Just think how valuable that iTunes credit card list is.

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Hahah, yeah... it all comes back to the Eco System and that's where Apple are the masters. It's still the most annoying thing with Google in that we've been promised all sorts on the store front and it's still not transpired. Hell, I'd be one happy bunny if that E-paper store we we're promised last year ever surfaced. That said I still don't like the Apple Eco System. I don't like iTunes and what it does to my system/network and I don't even view it as an option when buying music. Sure if I was on an Apple box where it works as it should, it'd be fine but I'm not and the point is, is that it doesn't prevent me from spending my money each month on music downloads that are the same or better quality than the one's found in the iTunes store.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote johnny h:

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Nobody ever used that in the consumer world. Real people don't care about how it works. Just that it works.

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Exactly. So your the vast majority of smartphone users who don't buy an Apple product are willing to put up with an OS you consider terrible because they can't afford something better?

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I didn't say it was terrible, I said it was inferior as a product. The product is not just the OS and hardware, but includes long term usability. The availability of third party apps play a very significant role in the value of the product.

johnny h Quote:

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The core Droid OS works very well now. It's the store that still sucks and terrible 3rd party apps are still terrible. Do I want a closed wall store solution where everything is at Apples mercy in order to attempt to fix it? Not personally, althrough I can understand why some users might.

---

You are willing to put up with a store that 'sucks' and 3rd party apps which are 'terrible' because of ideological reasons. You work very closely with technology and understand how it works very well. Most people don't, and don't care to. Hence why they reject terrible third party apps and a store which sucks. Hence why the profitability of any android product cannot get close to an iPhone of any incarnation.

johnny h Quote:

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Quote johnny h:

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Why doesn't it come into this discussion?

Do you believe google / samsung / whoever to be selling their products for less than optimum prices?

Believe me, if they could sell a S2 for twice the price of an iPhone and make more profit, that's what the price would be. But they can't. Some of these phones cost more in components and yet sell for half the price of the iPhone. Why? Because people won't pay any more for them! Because they aren't as good.

---

I belive that they are taking far less margin on each phone than Apple and each retailer is taking less money althrough in the Europe at least that's not uncommon as the money is made on the contract. The was a situation during the Apple launch phase where they were even claiming a percentage of the contract profit back from the cellphone companies (or at least they were in the states... donno if it applied here?) which is unheard of with any other company. They created hype and limited availability by restricting who could sell it and then charging them a premium for the privilige in a situation where any other firm would have been told to do one.

In fact they were : http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/29/verizon-passed-up-apple-iphone-deal/

So why are everyone else willing to do it? Because Apple was in the lead and everyone else was on catch up and they had to fight against the Apple marketing juggernaught.

---

Mostly people criticise Apple for doing a product which already existed (tablets, mp3 players etc) and making them more desirable. In my opinion they do this by making things work better than anyone else. Some would say its pure marketing, but I reject that argument. Since when were google or microsoft short of cash? Do they not have a phone number to a good advertising agency?

johnny h Quote:

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Apples business plan was/is take an exisiting idea that has yet to take off, make it simple and friendly to use and then build an eco system round it make it the standard before anyone else can move... they then lock it off and maximise profits by any means they can. It's great they can take a marginal tech and market it to the mainstream, and hats off to them for doing so but it's also their un-doing as not everyone wants to get entangled in their eco system.

Back to the inital point most shops have target margins on most products. Apples own mark up is far higher than anyone elses and on the average phone a shop will make far less on a Apple handset but they still stock them because X amount of people want them and will buy only them so it's commerical suicide not too.

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The demand for Apple products is such that shops will accept lower profit margins.

johnny h Quote:

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And finally your final point. What about all the people who simply don't wish to pay out what Apple feels like charging? Sure I'd like a Lamborghini, but for what I acturly require a Ford Focus would do the job well. Does that mean I have no speanding power? No, it just means I have better things to spend my money on than something with a sky high perceived value no matter how pretty it looks sat on the drive. Sure the are people out there who need / appreciate the design and engineering enough to be willing to pay for it but then it won't bet you down the shops any quicker during rush hour.

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No, you won't. And as I said, there is obviously plenty of money to be made from consumers who make carefully considered purchases. But if I was selling premium goods for big margins, I'd take the Apple customers over Android's.

johnny h Quote:

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Quote johnny h:

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The exact components of what constitutes 'good' is open for debate, but what isn't open for debate is that consumers value the hardware / software / design far more highly than any mix of android.

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No. Consumers who buy Apple value the Apple Hardware / software / Design far more highly than any mix of Android.

Are you seriously tell me the other 70% of the smartphone market have iPhone envy?

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Some will, some won't. I personally don't know anyone who is either ideologically anti-mac or very technically orientated who has chosen an Android device over iOS for any reason other than price. I'm sure they exist, but I'm willing to bet their numbers aren't too great.

johnny h Quote:

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Quote johnny h:

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Just think how valuable that iTunes credit card list is.

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Hahah, yeah... it all comes back to the Eco System and that's where Apple are the masters. It's still the most annoying thing with Google in that we've been promised all sorts on the store front and it's still not transpired. Hell, I'd be one happy bunny if that E-paper store we we're promised last year ever surfaced. That said I still don't like the Apple Eco System. I don't like iTunes and what it does to my system/network and I don't even view it as an option when buying music. Sure if I was on an Apple box where it works as it should, it'd be fine but I'm not and the point is, is that it doesn't prevent me from spending my money each month on music downloads that are the same or better quality than the one's found in the iTunes store.

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Apple don't promise anything. They announce products and then they ship them. Generally these products work.

Quote johnny h:

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You are willing to put up with a store that 'sucks' and 3rd party apps which are 'terrible' because of ideological reasons.

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No, not ideological reasons I'm willing to put up with them because I don't use them. I've plenty of app's that are used daily that work extremely well I just don't feel the urge to go picking out random ones that may or may not be broken. App wise I can't function without "Swype" on a smart phone and AFAIK the is currently no Apple equal to it, which considering the everyday functionality it adds to a handset is absolutly insane... and it isn't for the lack of trying. If you jailbreak you iPhone you can install Swype right now if you wish.

The store is badly organized, a pain to search and it still continues to hold applications in your history even if you try and remove them in order to organize it all. Design flaws indeed but I'm not the sort of person who sits there skimming through apps all day trying to find new ones... rather I just download what I need or pick them up as I read about them in other forms of media.

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You work very closely with technology and understand how it works very well. Most people don't, and don't care to. Hence why they reject terrible third party apps and a store which sucks. Hence why the profitability of any android product cannot get close to an iPhone of any incarnation.

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Not all apps are terrible through, I just mentioned that some existed and you don't find them on the Apple store because of the closed wall policy. The vast majority are on both platforms and function the same way. On the flipside I don't agree with Apples stance of killing app development by 3rd party companies, just because they feel like it and I really don't like the iTunes enviroment and I'm not the only one.

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Mostly people criticise Apple for doing a product which already existed (tablets, mp3 players etc) and making them more desirable. In my opinion they do this by making things work better than anyone else. Some would say its pure marketing, but I reject that argument. Since when were google or microsoft short of cash? Do they not have a phone number to a good advertising agency?

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I don't criticise that althrough I do get annoyied when they get refered to technical innovators... technical refiners would be more suitable and they are extremely good at it. They are great at taking neiche verticals and not only running with it but expanding the user base and selling it to people who had no idea it was even relevent.

Case points.

Mac desktops : through development and marketing of the machines they were pitched at artistic creatives who apprciate style and design. Now seen as a neiche product used by creatives they buy up crative enablers like Logic and give away cut down tools like Garage band. They give huge discounts to educational establishments (free in some cases) to ensure that the next generation is trained only on Apple products. People then see the established market leaders using those tools and wish to emulate them and end up purchasing due to a halo effect.

MP3 Players : A neiche asian product that dispite multiple attempts had yet to take off in the west except with geeks who had learned to use file sharing clients. The problem there was that the record companies didn't want it to go digital, rather sticking with a physical product. Apples response was to build a store and force them to comply with cheaply priced singles (many didn't want to) sold under Apples word that with the correct support they could educate and rebuild the market legally.

Smartphones : Quite a few PDA phones went before but Apple took what they now knew about content retailing and tieing up the Ecosystem and employed it here.

Tablets : Hp/Dell/MS all got their first but once again without content to back it up or a delivery system in place they fell flat on their faces.

Apples strength is in tieing together product and content and selling it easily to the mass consumer. If you like the ecosystem it's great and that's the one thing we both agree on... if you like the ecosystem.

Firms like MS either don't wish to get cought up in content delivery or for one reason or another can't pull it off (or simply move too slow and do it at the wrong time). Apples seen as being far more netural by media companies due to it's lack of allegiances in these arenas where as MS has it's Comcast / NBC tie ups and Google... well media companies and Google don't tend to get on for obvious reasons

That's not to say it's impossible for someone to adopt Apples business plan and make it work.

http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2012/03/features/classroom-disrupt or?page=all

Case in point that pretty much echos everything above.

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The demand for Apple products is such that shops will accept lower profit margins.

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Sure, because people who wish to be inside the Apple ecosystem wish to buy Apple, so they must sell it or loose out on potential turn over. The agreement to sell it has certain constraints and this keeps the market in check. It's not that the demand for Apple products is the deciding factor, rather the fact that they know they have no other choice because X amount of people will only buy that product. For the majority of purchasers that will buy another product they stock a wider selection giving them more options.

Quote johnny h:

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No, you won't. And as I said, there is obviously plenty of money to be made from consumers who make carefully considered purchases. But if I was selling premium goods for big margins, I'd take the Apple customers over Android's.

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Cool, your not everyone through and it's possible to make far more money off selling lots of low value items to a wider audience than just picking the most affulent 20%

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Some will, some won't. I personally don't know anyone who is either ideologically anti-mac or very technically orientated who has chosen an Android device over iOS for any reason other than price. I'm sure they exist, but I'm willing to bet their numbers aren't too great.

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In my small part of the office the are around 20 people. Up until 6 months ago a third of them had Apples, a third had HTC and the rest were Samsung/Nokia (2 windows phone users). As I look around now 1 of them still has Apple. Reasons for switching have been as follows

1.Impressed by ICS's new features and design.
2.Want a larger screen because they now find the Apple one far too restrictive.
3.Feel that Apple have fallen behind tech wise.

You can argue that I'm in a room of early adopters and geeks, and I won't deny it but when I see my none techincal sales guys getting a One X or S3 and then selling not only their iPhone but also their iPad because a 4.7" screen ticks all the boxes then I feel the's something in it. Hardly balanced argument but knowing how many fanboi Apple vs Droid arguments I've had in the last 3 years with these guys it says a lot... how that filters down into the general population over time we'll see.

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