Driller
Joined: 26/04/03
Posts: 128
Loc: Englishman in Paris
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I am a purist and like to follow traditional methods-if it aint broke, don't fix it kind
of thing.
The thing is, recently I have been recording some songs after some
time off, using a Sennheiser E609 (basically an SM57 in disgiuse)in front of a TSL122 into
a Mindprint DTC for recording guitar.
The sound is.....disappointing. Even
after experimenting with mic position etc the sound is very "brittle".
Now I
have always been of the opinion that guitar recording preamps and DI preamps have been
less than satisfactory on the sound front. Recently though I heard several recordings of
hard rock guitar through a Line6 preamp (Toneport I think) which absolutely blew me
away.
It sounded awesome.
So, what the hell is going on here? Have
recording preamps finally come of age or am I just never going to have the talent for
recording guitar in the traditional fashion?
--------------------
Don't worry, this won't hurt a bit 
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cfb4
member
Joined: 14/01/04
Posts: 331
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
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a little experimentation will help - and don't forget that air is a filter so there will
be a lot of hi-end up close to the speaker. Aiming the mic at the cone, rather than at the
center will make for a more mellow sound too.
--------------------
It's the most devastating moment in a young mans life, when he quite reasonably says to himself, "I shall never play The Dane!"
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ef37a
Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 1249
Loc: northampton uk
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There is just about THE best dissertation on mic'ing gitcabs there ever was in SoS Aug
07(? pretty sure.)
But yes peeps seem to get good results with modellers,
pedals, wee amps and all sorts these days.
Dave.
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Driller
Joined: 26/04/03
Posts: 128
Loc: Englishman in Paris
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Thanks chaps. I have tried and tried to rêposition the mic but I just can't get the sound
I'm after. As I said it sounds very brittle.
I wonder if it's because I'm
looking for a modern metal sound rather than a rock sound.
I will check out
that article and I think I'll plug in my GT6 and see what happens.
Otherwise,
anyone got any experience with using a recording preamp for this kind of guitar sound?
--------------------
Don't worry, this won't hurt a bit
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ef37a
Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 1249
Loc: northampton uk
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Metal?
METAL!! You HAVE bought the current sos issue haven't you?
Of
course you have! You wouldn't dare ask the question otherwise.......
Dave.
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Driller
Joined: 26/04/03
Posts: 128
Loc: Englishman in Paris
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Quote ef37a:
Metal?
METAL!!
You HAVE bought the current sos issue haven't you?
Of course you have! You
wouldn't dare ask the question otherwise.......
Dave.
Oh [ ****** ], you're kidding
me...really?
Oh bollox... 
--------------------
Don't worry, this won't hurt a bit
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Jack Ruston
Joined: 21/12/05
Posts: 2591
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Well the first thing I would do personally is try a different amp. I'm afraid the tsl and
dsl amps are....hard to record. If you play with the mic position a lot you'll get the
best out of it but don't expect it to give you that familiar Marshall sound. It'll be
harsh at best.
Just my opinion.
J
--------------------
Nothing is just nothing
Space is other people trying to be quiet
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Driller
Joined: 26/04/03
Posts: 128
Loc: Englishman in Paris
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Quote Jack Ruston:
Well the first
thing I would do personally is try a different amp. I'm afraid the tsl and dsl amps
are....hard to record. If you play with the mic position a lot you'll get the best out of
it but don't expect it to give you that familiar Marshall sound. It'll be harsh at best.
Just my opinion.
J
Ah, now that's interesting. Anyway I'm in the market for another
valve amp, have been for some time, something with a low power output that you can push a
bit.
What do you recommend for a recording useage?
I've been looking
at the Mesa Boogie Rectifier Preamp...
--------------------
Don't worry, this won't hurt a bit
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ef37a
Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 1249
Loc: northampton uk
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"something with a low power output that you can push a bit."
Err? Spam forbids
but check me out!
Dave.
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Driller
Joined: 26/04/03
Posts: 128
Loc: Englishman in Paris
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Quote ef37a:
"something with a
low power output that you can push a bit."
Err? Spam forbids but check me
out!
Dave.
Yeah,
this thread's contriving to make me look quite silly really isn't it?
--------------------
Don't worry, this won't hurt a bit
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Jack Ruston
Joined: 21/12/05
Posts: 2591
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Well look, it totally depends on what you want. If you're trying to get that full on
bright but not too bright Marshall sound then it tends to be modded plexi's and JCM800's
that you're hearing on all those records. The new JCM800 reissue actually sounds good, but
as with the unmodded originals you often need to push the front end with a pedal if you
want a lot of gain. The problems are threefold (what a great moment to be able to use the
-fold suffix)...
1. It's a matter of trial and error finding great sounding
60's 70's and 80's Marshalls. A lot of them have been altered over the years and not
always to the benefit of the amp. The good ones tend to be expensive but there are deals
to be had. The most obvious place to look without breaking the bank is the late JMP heads,
say anything up to about 79, models 2203 or 2204 (which is the 50w). Those are the same as
early JCM800's but without the extra price that 800's seem to command at the moment.
They're a mixed bunch these amps, but a good one is so rewarding.
2, They are
ALL ridiculously loud. Even the 50 watter is as loud as most 100w heads. There is just no
such thing as a sensible level with these amps. They dont do it.
3. In
relation to point 2, a huge part of the way they sound is to do with the corresponding
cabinet break up. If you want THAT sound, there is no other way to do it. The driving of
the power stage valves is only 50% of the recipe. If you dont push the speaker you end up
with something more equivalent to a head running into a speaker simulator. It might be
quite convincing but ultimately not the same.
So it's tricky if levels are a
problem. I record a lot of Marshalls in the course of my work but I personally own a 50w
Soldano Hot Rod head, which sounds different (not as bright and with more gain than most)
but nevertheless a very good high gain amp. It's quite a lot quieter in its optimum
operating zone than the 50w marshalls. But we're still talking full on, blow you nuts off
sort of levels.
As I say, it really depends what sound you want, and what
levels you can tolerate. If it really must be quiet, I hate to say this but I think the
software might be a better option than an amp run at half mast (or probably less)
Oh and by the way...Speaker attenuators by definition dont solve this problem because
they reduce speaker distortion, and quiet boxes that you put the amp in are limited in how
much low end level they can actually attenuate, and can also make for quite a strange
sounding recording.
Jack
--------------------
Nothing is just nothing
Space is other people trying to be quiet
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Rockrooms
Joined: 06/12/05
Posts: 160
Loc: Oxford
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Quote Driller:
I am a purist and
like to follow traditional methods-if it aint broke, don't fix it kind of thing.
Well, how purist / traditional are
you? You're using a DAW and recording digitally, which some might argue has already taken
you from the true path, so why be afraid of newer techniques on recording guitar?
I started on a bit of a long post, but it's late, so to cut it short, amp modelling has
come on leaps and bounds like all aspects of DAW development, I'm a big fan of the
amplitube range, if you've not tried it then give it a whirl. The only danger is you
might spend more time playing with all the options rather than recording anything...
- Joe -
Rockrooms
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ef37a
Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 1249
Loc: northampton uk
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"Well, how purist / traditional are you? You're using a DAW and recording digitally"
I think that is bit harsh Joe! Despite all the misty eyed round objects talked
about "Tape Sound" (err, whch tape, which machine...?)Most engineers of those days would
have K.I.L.L.E.D. for a 24bit DR!
Dave.
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Rockrooms
Joined: 06/12/05
Posts: 160
Loc: Oxford
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Quote ef37a:
"Well, how purist /
traditional are you? You're using a DAW and recording digitally"
I think that
is bit harsh Joe! Despite all the misty eyed round objects talked about "Tape Sound" (err,
whch tape, which machine...?)Most engineers of those days would have K.I.L.L.E.D. for a
24bit DR!
Dave.
Sorry, wasn't meant to be harsh, just really trying to get the OP to be open to giving
some amp modeling a go and not feel bad about not being able to get the sound
"traditionally". There's still a lot of skill and judgment needed to get a good sound out
of an amp modeler as much as the real thing.
I'm sure those same engineers
would have killed at the ability to take the distortion *off* a take - I've been asked if
I can do this on tracks recorded using a real amp on several occasions.
A fair
number of the amps that I am presented with recording are not in the best of shape, poor
maintenance, have been subject to hard gigging, beer spills and so on.
Anyways,
apologies again, wasn't meant as a criticism.
Still, missing the days of tape rewind
and reel changing as natural breaks! Along with valve warm up times...
- Joe
-
Rockrooms Studio
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Ramirez
Joined: 24/10/06
Posts: 197
Loc: Pwllheli, Cymru
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Quote Jack Ruston:
Well the first
thing I would do personally is try a different amp. I'm afraid the tsl and dsl amps
are....hard to record. If you play with the mic position a lot you'll get the best out of
it but don't expect it to give you that familiar Marshall sound. It'll be harsh at best.
Just my opinion.
J
I find my DLS401 a pretty nice recording amp, providing you
keep away from the drive channel (a strange thing to do with a Marshall perhaps, but I
don't really like the typical Marshall sound, nor do I record a lot of balls out rock.
Now, please don't ask me why I play a Marshall amp and a cherry sunburst Les Paul.)
The clean channel is surprisingly versatile, and quite springy and sprightly at
VERY low gains, while I prefer the clean channel with everything maxed out to the drive
channel (but then, the only time I really use any drive is for Weld-era Neil Young
impressions.)
Bit of a pointless post really, sorry.
Aled
--------------------
Bill Withers while Tom Waits, and Stan Getz
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ef37a
Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 1249
Loc: northampton uk
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Heh! Heh!
No worries Joe, tongue was in cheek just a bit!
Dave.
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Driller
Joined: 26/04/03
Posts: 128
Loc: Englishman in Paris
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Quote Jack Ruston:
Well look, it
totally depends on what you want. If you're trying to get that full on bright but not too
bright Marshall sound then it tends to be modded plexi's and JCM800's that you're hearing
on all those records. The new JCM800 reissue actually sounds good, but as with the
unmodded originals you often need to push the front end with a pedal if you want a lot of
gain. The problems are threefold (what a great moment to be able to use the -fold
suffix)...
1. It's a matter of trial and error finding great sounding 60's 70's
and 80's Marshalls. A lot of them have been altered over the years and not always to the
benefit of the amp. The good ones tend to be expensive but there are deals to be had. The
most obvious place to look without breaking the bank is the late JMP heads, say anything
up to about 79, models 2203 or 2204 (which is the 50w). Those are the same as early
JCM800's but without the extra price that 800's seem to command at the moment. They're a
mixed bunch these amps, but a good one is so rewarding.
2, They are ALL
ridiculously loud. Even the 50 watter is as loud as most 100w heads. There is just no such
thing as a sensible level with these amps. They dont do it.
3. In relation to
point 2, a huge part of the way they sound is to do with the corresponding cabinet break
up. If you want THAT sound, there is no other way to do it. The driving of the power stage
valves is only 50% of the recipe. If you dont push the speaker you end up with something
more equivalent to a head running into a speaker simulator. It might be quite convincing
but ultimately not the same.
So it's tricky if levels are a problem. I record
a lot of Marshalls in the course of my work but I personally own a 50w Soldano Hot Rod
head, which sounds different (not as bright and with more gain than most) but nevertheless
a very good high gain amp. It's quite a lot quieter in its optimum operating zone than the
50w marshalls. But we're still talking full on, blow you nuts off sort of levels.
As I say, it really depends what sound you want, and what levels you can tolerate.
If it really must be quiet, I hate to say this but I think the software might be a better
option than an amp run at half mast (or probably less)
Oh and by the
way...Speaker attenuators by definition dont solve this problem because they reduce
speaker distortion, and quiet boxes that you put the amp in are limited in how much low
end level they can actually attenuate, and can also make for quite a strange sounding
recording.
Jack
Blimey Jack thanks for your lengthy reply and sorry that mine probably won't do it
justice!
All your points absolutely noted although I have to say the kind of
sound I'm after really is in the "heavy" Pantera,
Machinehead, Slipknot kind of
territory. I'm not sure a Plexi is going to do this for me (maybe I'm wrong).
I've also noted that a lot of these folk are now using solid state and modelling to get
these sounds. And the advantage being that, just as you referred to in point 2, you can
record these things at human sound levels by plugging straight into the desk.
I
know that Dime Darrel used a solid state Randall for a while and on the Line6 site (the
idea of which I always hated with a vengence) bands like Slipknot and Meshuggah are
noted.
Don't get me wrong, I adore the sound of a big old valve amp pushed
into breakup with a Les Paul on the other end but maybe I need to get with the times for
the kind of sound I'm after.
Quote
Rockrooms:
Quote
Driller:
I am a purist and like to follow traditional methods-if it aint
broke, don't fix it kind of thing.
Well, how purist / traditional are you? You're using a DAW and
recording digitally, which some might argue has already taken you from the true path, so
why be afraid of newer techniques on recording guitar?
I started on a bit of a
long post, but it's late, so to cut it short, amp modelling has come on leaps and bounds
like all aspects of DAW development, I'm a big fan of the amplitube range, if you've not
tried it then give it a whirl. The only danger is you might spend more time playing with
all the options rather than recording anything...
- Joe -
Rockrooms
Quote Rockrooms:
Quote ef37a:
"Well, how purist / traditional are you?
You're using a DAW and recording digitally"
I think that is bit harsh Joe!
Despite all the misty eyed round objects talked about "Tape Sound" (err, whch tape, which
machine...?)Most engineers of those days would have K.I.L.L.E.D. for a 24bit DR!
Dave.
Sorry, wasn't meant
to be harsh
No worries Joe,
I'm made of harder stuff than that! 
I've got to say that these Amplitude type things always put me
off because they seemed so far removed from the way electric guitar has been recorded for
most of its life.
I mean even with a recording pre tyou go into a box and then
into the desk.
With AmpliTude I believe you just plug straight into the desk or
preamp and play a clean signal whilst using software monitoring of the plugin to shape the
sound?
I've always been weary of the latency factor in software monitoring
although my MacPro can't give me low latency then I guess nothing can!
I'm
going to give Amp Designer in Logic a try and am going to look at a few modelling preamps
(crosses chest).
Its new generation sounds I'm after-maybe I need to try new
generation gear?
--------------------
Don't worry, this won't hurt a bit
|
jayzed
member
Joined: 19/03/04
Posts: 686
Loc: North London
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I have managed to get some amazing guitar sounds by doubling up on my modelling. Line 6 +
Guitar Rig at home and I've also used Waves with Amplitube at work.
For some
reason, and it's probably psychological, it seems to fill in the 'unsatisfying gaps' I
sort of felt I was getting with the modellers by using two apps.
Still,
although nothing like playing a guitar in front of an amp for perfomance feel - that punch
in the gut one gets - I've been pleasantly surprised with the results I've got with
modellers, even when not overdoing it by using two!
But for gods' sake, don't
rely on the presets. Too buzzy, too harsh and too much reverb or delay is usually the
way.
Also, don't trust any marketing material that says such and such uses
their product. The whole endorsement industry when it comes to MI practically ensures that
you are not getting the full story.
I've spoken to one guy slagging off
modellers who was plugging his guitar directly into his Macbooks line in.
Don't do this! I use a Summit 2BA-221 valve pre-amp before going into the line when
DI-ing my guitar.
BTW, think of latency as:
every 1 millisecond
is an extra foot you are standing from your amp. Seen this way, the 14ms round trip I
regularly use is like standing 5 yards from my amp.
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Jack Ruston
Joined: 21/12/05
Posts: 2591
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Ok so that pantera sort of thing involves more gain than a jcm800 and much more than a
plexi. The traditional way to achieve this was by modding the heads. But here in the uk we
have fewer options in that regard than in say LA. The typical very high gain sounds come
from amps like mesa, diezel, splawn, soldano etc. However I've heard good things about the
line 6 vetta II head, but ONLY when recorded through a cab in the normal way.
If I was doing what you're doing, and I had the money and the ability to make a racket,
I'd buy a Diezel.
--------------------
Nothing is just nothing
Space is other people trying to be quiet
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ef37a
Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 1249
Loc: northampton uk
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I have to say I am with Jack here.
The vast majority of posts, here and elswhere, are
along the lines of "How can I get an XXX 100W into 4x12" 100W sound without upsetting mum
or a visit from the anti-funfuzz"!
If you have the abilty to let rip and record
the "natural" sound go for it.
Dave.
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James Perrett
Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 6280
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
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Quote Driller:
...using a
Sennheiser E609 (basically an SM57 in disgiuse) ...
I don't know who told you this but I would totally disagree. I've
tried to use a 609 a few times and never managed to get a good sound out of it. It sounds
nothing like an SM57 to me. My secret weapon guitar cab mic is an old Sennheiser HD400!
Cheers
James.
--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net
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Jack Ruston
Joined: 21/12/05
Posts: 2591
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If you do feel that you can go with the cranked amp it's important to get the cab and
speaker choice right. Rather than discuss this here, you should definitely read Mark
Mynett's awesome metal production article if you haven't already. J
--------------------
Nothing is just nothing
Space is other people trying to be quiet
|
Rockrooms
Joined: 06/12/05
Posts: 160
Loc: Oxford
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Quote Driller:
I've
got to say that these Amplitude type things always put me off because they seemed so far
removed from the way electric guitar has been recorded for most of its life.
I
mean even with a recording pre tyou go into a box and then into the desk.
With
AmpliTude I believe you just plug straight into the desk or preamp and play a clean signal
whilst using software monitoring of the plugin to shape the sound?
I've always
been weary of the latency factor in software monitoring although my MacPro can't give me
low latency then I guess nothing can!
I tend to either use a DI, or a TL audio 5052, or sometimes
straight into a Presonus Firestudio. As mentioned the latency is often no more
significant than if you were standing up slightly away from an amp, so by the time you
factor in recording with headphones a bit of latency is possibly a more "real" sound.
I've not had a play with Amplitube Metal, though have heard good things about it,
with X-Gear you can mix and match from across the range. There was a SOS review a while
back
Of course there's nothing quite like playing with a cranked 100W stack -
provided you have the soundproofing to do it - and for some that's a key part of recording
a good take, I had one session where a guitarist insisted on having the playback come
through the live room PA because he couldn't get on with headphones. The spill was a bit
tricky and I ended up using the modelled signal path, but it worked for him.
As
ever, for many of us recording is a whole bunch of compromises, work arounds and possibly
prayers, depending on time, budget, bruises and inclination.
For me Amplitube
(and others) are like having an extra engineer that saves me having to wheel in different
amps, replug pedal boards, solder dodgy connections and move mics.
I often find just
a bit of the room ambience in Amplitube can help cement the illusion.
Likewise the
dual amp signal chain can fill out a sound and create the classic wide panned guitar sound
from a single take.
I realise I'm beginning to sound like a fanboi, perhaps I
should tap IK for some endorsement kickbacks !
- Joe -
Rockrooms Studio
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Steve Hill
member
Joined: 07/01/03
Posts: 11565
Loc: Oxfordshire
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I've never found a plug-in that does it. And I have some good ones. I'm a guitarist
myself, still gigging now and again. I know it's all about that
player/instrument/amp/cabinet/room interaction that makes something special happen
occasionally.
I also have a Pod XT in the rack. It's desperately underused.
It's gathering cobwebs.
I do use plugins (or the Pod as outboard), maybe to add
a little spice to something I've already tracked old skool.
Consider steak.
If you undercook it on the BBQ you can stick it back on for half a minute. If you
overcook it, you can't undo it.
So I try to track real players with real amps
in a real room, but with the sound just slightly less than the full on
distortion/reverb/whatever the player might feel is right. Once he hears it in the mix he
may well back me on this. Otherwise, we can introduce the "BBQ" plugin and give it
another 30 seconds of cooking.
--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...
www.woodwormmusic.com
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Korff
Joined: 20/10/06
Posts: 921
Loc: Cambridge, UK
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The Pantera guitar sound is probably my favourite metal guitar sound ever! I get the
feeling when listening to them, though, that there's a fair bit of room sound in there too
- I could be wrong, but there's a 'bigness' in that sound that suggests a lot of real (as
opposed to Lexicon/AMS) reverb. That and double tracking. Double tracking, mind - not
triple or quadruple!
If I were going for that, I'd probably start with a big
(!) room, a loud (!) amp and both a close and room mic - an omni, wherever it sounded
best.
I could be wrong, if I had to guess, I'd say that's where the Pantera
(certainly on CFH and Driven) guitar sound came from. That said, I'd be a happy bunny
indeed if Jack could share some more of his thoughts on the matter!
Cheers,
Chris
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ef37a
Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 1249
Loc: northampton uk
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I shall probably get shot at for suggesting it but have you tried re-amping at all?
Dave.
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Driller
Joined: 26/04/03
Posts: 128
Loc: Englishman in Paris
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Sorry, been off pulling on choppers (I should probably rephrase that  )
Well thanks for all the useful replies chaps, this site
really is such a great resource.
In response to which I've bought an SM57 and
bought.....Revalver MkIII, which for overdriven sounds really doesn't sound bad at all!
I'm going into the instrument channel of a Mindprint DTC which is already very musical
maybe that helps.
Revalver needs some tweaking but I'm sure it will do the
job. I am astounded but there you go, that's progress for you.
I also tried
a friends Diezel amp and was also very impressed. If I don't manage to get there with
Revalver then this sounds like it will do the job for sure.
Have to see
what the SM57 does with the TSL122 as well.
ETA Oh yeah and I've renewed my
eSub and read the very handy Metal article.
Haven't tried reamping, I'm after
something more immediate (ie I don't have the time, I know: philistine  ).
--------------------
Don't worry, this won't hurt a bit
Edited by Driller (13/11/09 07:00 PM)
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