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table for two
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The way computing is going and the musician
      #1039867 - 26/03/13 09:39 AM
For the past few years I purposefully tried to eradicate any interest in computing.
Manily because being stuck indoors (home, study, and office) infront of a pc for the previous decade and half I realsed was one of the major factors that led to my depression.

However, i must say i am rather invigorated with the direction conmputing is going.

Intel within the next few years will be BGA i.e cpu fixed onto motherboard with no chance of swapping out, upgrading cpu.
This points to the recognition that the Cloud is the way with thinner, lighter, power efficient tablets, micro pcs the size of a USB flash drive (already being manufactured and sold).
10nm, 5nm Intel cpus.

We will move away from our computers requiring power hungry hot Xcores, XXGB memory, XXXGB storage, XXXW psu,
towards computers that have tetrabit ethernet, wifi way beyong current speeds that makes working realtime on audio recording & processing, soft synths, samples a breeze.

Software will become cloud based with a yearly license of say just £5 for cubase, omnisphere,
this will necessitate far tighter streamlined coding.
Software coding has already become much more efficent due to Apps.

The days of bloated OS as Win8 and Osx 10.8 will be a thing of the past.

That leaves pc system bulders in a quandry, same with graphics card makers.
Audio hardware will continue as it is needed, peripherals will be the boom sector as it is already.
Encryption and securtiy will be massive.

The end result is environmentally in terms of wastage and dumping of computers there will be a great decrease, similarly in the amount of power used up on current pcs by hundreds of millions of users will greatly decline.

Healhtwise people can be anywhere out and about and be productive and i feel this will help people stay away from one way of being depressed and once out and about interact more in the real world with other similar minded people .


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Mr Rook



Joined: 28/09/11
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Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1039884 - 26/03/13 11:32 AM
Wondered where you'd got to.


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Pete Kaine
Scan Computers


Joined: 10/07/03
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Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1039896 - 26/03/13 12:27 PM
Quote table for two:


Intel within the next few years will be BGA i.e cpu fixed onto motherboard with no chance of swapping out, upgrading cpu.





http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2012/12/06/intel-denies-bga/1

It looks like their BGA offerings are only there to give them a cheaper route into mediacenters & SOHO setups without devaluing the LGA solutions.

--------------------
ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog


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SecretSam
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Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1039902 - 26/03/13 12:53 PM
You may be right.

The environmental friendliness of big cloud data centres is open to debate, though.

--------------------
Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.


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Scope



Joined: 03/07/06
Posts: 2231
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: SecretSam]
      #1039949 - 26/03/13 04:18 PM
Fixing components to the main board is a recipe for environmental disaster.
Why?

Simple- when a single component fails, the whole board is scrap.
Doh!
Fail.
( ask any macbook air owner with ram issues how much it cost to fix !)

Also-
Surely the point of a PC is the user can build to their own spec ???
Surely that very flexibility is a key reason for buying and building your own machine?
Hemogenised pcs kind of kill that market.

I am not convinced the future of hardware is for our benefit ........


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Marbury
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Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1039956 - 26/03/13 04:43 PM
As a fellow sufferer I agree with you 100%. Since I got an ipad with amazing music making apps (many that exceed by far the quality of my studio racks, VST) I have found it easier. Sitting in a room on your own isn't good an getting out and about with a portable tablet is a great breath of fresh air. I have a problem of putting off making music, doing anything else like making sound effects. Why ? I don't know because I love music and I sell it well when produced for use in TV/media. I just am going through a long period of non production though I am getting lots of ideas, loops etc into my ipad. Sometimes though the choice of apps, directions you can go can equally be daunting and off putting.

--------------------
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robinv



Joined: 31/08/04
Posts: 757
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1039995 - 26/03/13 07:46 PM
It is weird though, looking at the tower under my desk, how similar it looks to one I had 20 years ago. The layout is basically the same, the IO shield, the slots, the connections to monitor, mouse and keyboard - slight evolutions, but considering the rate at which technology changes it's amazing how little has changed. I live in the countryside - internet access is not a constant, it's a variable, therefore everything has to be local and I can't see that getting better in the next decade.

I think there needs to be some sort of massive evolutionary step to push us past desktops - it may become niche, more specialised but it needs something we havent seen yet to allow computing to exist in another form that's a serious creative tool and not just a device for consumption.

--------------------
Molten Music Technology - Computers for doing music on


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
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Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1040012 - 26/03/13 08:42 PM
The elephant in the room with 'cloud' (What used to be called dumb terminal and mainframe) computing is that high throughput and low latency hard realtime are NOT the same goal, and they get further apart as the latency limits drop.

Consider even the ultimate limit, C (~186,000 miles per second, nothing goes faster, period), now in a practical communications medium (fiber or copper, you usually make about 2/3rds C, so say 130,000 miles/second), that means that even ignoring everything else a round trip of 65 miles takes a milisecond, and most of the big cloud computing machines are further from me then that!

Next add in the fact that none of those providers have direct links to my place, it is all shared bandwidth, and allow for a few dropped packets and suddenly my powerful softsynth in the cloud has 40ms of latency to my tablet, and is pretty much unplayable.

For low latency you pretty much have to put the processor in the same building as the user, or at the least on a short dedicated link.

Now it is true that for many purposes the CPU and memory in a decent tablet are perfectly sufficient for audio which is not in the grand scheme of things usually that processor heavy, but do not be thinking that pushing you compute intensive workloads to the cloud will always be a net win.

Besides, even with a totally portable machine there are only so many good rooms in which to record, and adding a proper machine to such a place is hardly a big deal.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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mhaigh



Joined: 14/11/07
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Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1040015 - 26/03/13 09:32 PM
Quote table for two:

Software will become cloud based with a yearly license of say just £5 for cubase, omnisphere





Ha ha ha!

--------------------
My metal music! My other music!


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table for two
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Joined: 24/03/02
Posts: 5894
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1040904 - 02/04/13 01:25 PM
Quote Pete Kaine:


http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2012/12/06/intel-denie...

It looks like their BGA offerings are only there to give them a cheaper route into mediacenters & SOHO setups without devaluing the LGA solutions.




Intel will keep LGA until the Cloud is mature enough, whilst readying BGA en masse.
Was reading an article Professor Peide Ye of Purdue University, Indiana, mentioned silcon will hit its limits in ten years, by which Intel may well be 5nm.
Professor Pie proposed moving beyond cmos mosfet into non silicon semiconductor as indium gallium arsenidem (more exensive than sand)
although he was still looking at multi cores and i7 like number crunching cpus ...
which given the cloud will be unnecessary.



...



Quote SecretSam:



The environmental friendliness of big cloud data centres is open to debate, though.




The milions of watts of megadeta centres is a concern. As is Skynet scenario. Government big brother and our data.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/world/facebooks-new-data-cen...
Facebook is building its data centre 60 miles from the Arctic Circle, in swedish town of Lulea & hydrogen powered.
Looks like this is the way mega deta centres from Google, Twitter are going.



...



Quote Scope:

Fixing components to the main board is a recipe for environmental disaster.
ask any macbook air owner with ram issues how much it cost to fix !)

Surely the point of a PC is the user can build to their own spec ???
Surely that very flexibility is a key reason for buying and building your own machine?
Hemogenised pcs kind of kill that market.





Quote table for two:

This points to the recognition that the Cloud is the way with thinner, lighter, power efficient tablets, micro pcs the size of a USB flash drive (already being manufactured and sold).
We will move away from our computers requiring power hungry hot Xcores, XXGB memory, XXXGB storage, XXXW psu




I.e we wont need laptops as macair, nor i7 desktops, nor bloated OS which runs on them, nor Focusrite Rednet
We will have £50-£200 machines with tetrabit ethernet, gigabit wifi, stripped down OS.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=raspberry... Raspberry Pi £30 credit card sized computer, early days in 5 -10 years we can see where we are going.
http://liliputing.com/2013/03/android-4-2-2-beta-for-the-mk8... lililputing is a neat site for miniature pc developments, this ones an "Andriod Rockchip RK3066 dual core processor, 1GB of RAM, and 8GB of storage" size of a chunky USB fash drive
... very early days.


Pads, tablets have already striped down OS and recent announcemnet of MS Blue and MinKernal points to the way mainstream OS is going.



...



Quote Marbury:

As a fellow sufferer I agree with you 100%. Since I got an ipad with amazing music making apps (many that exceed by far the quality of my studio racks, VST) I have found it easier. Sitting in a room on your own isn't good an getting out and about with a portable tablet is a great breath of fresh air.




I found being imprisoned infront of a pc too much. I dont want to be attached to technology. I have made a concerted effort to detach myself from technology, making me feel more free and less depressed.



...




Quote robinv:

I think there needs to be some sort of massive evolutionary step to push us past desktops - it may become niche, more specialised but it needs something we havent seen yet to allow computing to exist in another form that's a serious creative tool and not just a device for consumption.




If we look at 3g>4g 10 year timeline, USB2 > USB3 10 year timeline, we can almost say we will be given the Cloud and access to it gradually although the technology to make that evolutinary leap is ready to roll.
Similarly to keep stockholders happy, the big tech companies will dole coud out piecemeal.



...



Quote dmills:

Consider even the ultimate limit, C (~186,000 miles per second, nothing goes faster, period), now in a practical communications medium (fiber or copper, you usually make about 2/3rds C, so say 130,000 miles/second), that means that even ignoring everything else a round trip of 65 miles takes a milisecond, and most of the big cloud computing machines are further from me then that!
Next add in the fact that none of those providers have direct links to my place, it is all shared bandwidth, and allow for a few dropped packets and suddenly my powerful softsynth in the cloud has 40ms of latency to my tablet, and is pretty much unplayable.




We will have i feel Reapeater equivalent with data centres in arctic.
We already have wifi going though our home electric wires, with wifi adapters that plug into our home electric powerpoint.
Tetrabit ethernet & gigabit wifi on simple tablets, pcs, along with far stripped down efficient software coding, barebones OS.
They will have to make these possible just so the stocktraders can trade "realtime" via the cloud.



...




Quote mhaigh:

Quote table for two:

Software will become cloud based with a yearly license of say just £5 for cubase, omnisphere





Ha ha ha!




I know £5 is a dream, more realistic £25 a year.


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Pete Kaine
Scan Computers


Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 3558
Loc: Manchester
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1040914 - 02/04/13 02:14 PM
Quote table for two:


Was reading an article Professor Peide Ye of Purdue University, Indiana, mentioned silcon will hit its limits in ten years, by which Intel may well be 5nm.
Professor Pie proposed moving beyond cmos mosfet into non silicon semiconductor as indium gallium arsenidem (more exensive than sand)
although he was still looking at multi cores and i7 like number crunching cpus ...





Cloud aside I'm expecting Optical chips to be breaking the market before we hit the silicon limit.


Quote table for two:


I know £5 is a dream, more realistic £25 a year.




hmmm... on your first response I thought "You've a couple of zeros missing there.
Now I'm thinking that your just missing a zero.

--------------------
ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2353
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1041391 - 04/04/13 07:29 PM
Quote table for two:


We will have i feel Reapeater equivalent with data centres in arctic.
We already have wifi going though our home electric wires, with wifi adapters that plug into our home electric powerpoint.
Tetrabit ethernet & gigabit wifi on simple tablets, pcs, along with far stripped down efficient software coding, barebones OS.
They will have to make these possible just so the stocktraders can trade "realtime" via the cloud.




And none of it will help with the lightspeed limit!

Latency has a hard lower limit at the distance / speed of light in the transmission medium, and the speed of light never exceeds 186,000 miles/second even under ideal conditions.

You run a server in the arctic requiring say a 2000 mile round trip, and even at full light speed (Which is never achieved in fiber) you will get somewhere in the 10ms region for the travel time, more realistic would be 16ms.
Adding repeaters (Which are required as standard on such links) will make things worse, and adding packet switching to support multiple users will make things much worse again, allowing for dropping the odd packet (which is an important part of TCPs rate limiting servo loop) multiplies the other delays....

Sorry, but the physics says no.

The traders know this which is why Goldman Sachs pays big money to host their automated trading systems in the same block as the NYSE, and why some very small islands have excellent internet links because they happen to lie on shortest paths between major financial centers.

The cloud is NOT directly appropriate for any situation requiring low and deterministic latency.

As to software coding efficiency, don't make me laugh! Most of the tablets use java for application level coding for gods sake. Fact is that most of the time developer efficiency is a hell of a lot more important then cpu efficiency, developers are expensive, processing power is cheap.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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table for two
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Joined: 24/03/02
Posts: 5894
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: dmills]
      #1041456 - 05/04/13 08:37 AM
Quote dmills:


And none of it will help with the lightspeed limit!

Latency has a hard lower limit at the distance / speed of light in the transmission medium, and the speed of light never exceeds 186,000 miles/second even under ideal conditions.

You run a server in the arctic requiring say a 2000 mile round trip, and even at full light speed (Which is never achieved in fiber) you will get somewhere in the 10ms region for the travel time, more realistic would be 16ms.
Adding repeaters (Which are required as standard on such links) will make things worse, and adding packet switching to support multiple users will make things much worse again, allowing for dropping the odd packet (which is an important part of TCPs rate limiting servo loop) multiplies the other delays....

Sorry, but the physics says no.

The traders know this which is why Goldman Sachs pays big money to host their automated trading systems in the same block as the NYSE, and why some very small islands have excellent internet links because they happen to lie on shortest paths between major financial centers.

The cloud is NOT directly appropriate for any situation requiring low and deterministic latency.

As to software coding efficiency, don't make me laugh! Most of the tablets use java for application level coding for gods sake. Fact is that most of the time developer efficiency is a hell of a lot more important then cpu efficiency, developers are expensive, processing power is cheap.

Regards, Dan.





We really are at the infancy of cloud. If we look back the past thirty years of computing and see where for instance stock trading is then look forward thrity years (lets half that to fifteen).


I think we will see a move away from Java soon enough, even two decades ago it was passable.


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Bogmusic



Joined: 03/01/10
Posts: 56
Loc: North Yorkshire
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1041665 - 06/04/13 09:46 AM
Quote table for two:

Healthwise people can be anywhere out and about and be productive and I feel this will help people stay away from one way of being depressed and once out and about interact more in the real world with other similar minded people .




I empathise with you. As Terry Pratchett put it in Small Gods (in capital letters because it was Death speaking)...

"YOU HAVE PERHAPS HEARD THE PHRASE THAT HELL IS OTHER PEOPLE? "Yes. Yes, of course."
Death nodded. IN TIME, he said, YOU WILL LEARN THAT IT IS WRONG

Regards
Simon


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OneWorld



Joined: 07/04/09
Posts: 1868
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1041666 - 06/04/13 10:01 AM
Quote table for two:

For the past few years I purposefully tried to eradicate any interest in computing.
Manily because being stuck indoors (home, study, and office) infront of a pc for the previous decade and half I realsed was one of the major factors that led to my depression.

However, i must say i am rather invigorated with the direction conmputing is going.

Intel within the next few years will be BGA i.e cpu fixed onto motherboard with no chance of swapping out, upgrading cpu.
This points to the recognition that the Cloud is the way with thinner, lighter, power efficient tablets, micro pcs the size of a USB flash drive (already being manufactured and sold).
10nm, 5nm Intel cpus.

We will move away from our computers requiring power hungry hot Xcores, XXGB memory, XXXGB storage, XXXW psu,
towards computers that have tetrabit ethernet, wifi way beyong current speeds that makes working realtime on audio recording & processing, soft synths, samples a breeze.

Software will become cloud based with a yearly license of say just £5 for cubase, omnisphere,
this will necessitate far tighter streamlined coding.
Software coding has already become much more efficent due to Apps.

The days of bloated OS as Win8 and Osx 10.8 will be a thing of the past.

That leaves pc system bulders in a quandry, same with graphics card makers.
Audio hardware will continue as it is needed, peripherals will be the boom sector as it is already.
Encryption and securtiy will be massive.

The end result is environmentally in terms of wastage and dumping of computers there will be a great decrease, similarly in the amount of power used up on current pcs by hundreds of millions of users will greatly decline.

Healhtwise people can be anywhere out and about and be productive and i feel this will help people stay away from one way of being depressed and once out and about interact more in the real world with other similar minded people .




And they said affordable computing would lead to the paperless office - yeah sure.

As for health issues - get a life lol I wouldn't bother gazing my navel too much over whether everything is going to become cloudified or not, who knows who cares as long as I can bang a tune out one way or the other, and how times in the life of your computer do you swap out the CPU?


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5635
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1041680 - 06/04/13 11:00 AM
Quote table for two:

Software will become cloud based with a yearly license of say just £5 for cubase, omnisphere,
this will necessitate far tighter streamlined coding.




Dream on! Look up the prices of subscriptions to Adobe Sreative Suite.

http://www.adobe.com/uk/products/creativesuite/cssubscription.html

Quote:

Healhtwise people can be anywhere out and about and be productive and i feel this will help people stay away from one way of being depressed and once out and about interact more in the real world with other similar minded people .




No, they'll just be somewhere else, looking at their computers! Ever seen a bunch of kids on a night out? They're texting more than they're talking to their companions!

Composing has always been a solitary occupation. And I'm afraid a depressed person will be just as depressed in a crowd as he is sitting at home.


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CS70



Joined: 26/11/12
Posts: 402
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: dmills]
      #1041754 - 06/04/13 07:29 PM
Quote:

And none of it will help with the lightspeed limit!




That's a pretty hard limit, yes.

Quote:

Sorry, but the physics says no.




Hm, I ran a bit of quick numbers for fun and - with a bit of reasonable assumptions, such as the Earth being perfectly spherical, an uniform spread of software centers on its surface and a 10% additional latency with respect to the 2*10power8 speed of light in fiber optic - and it turns out that if you want to stay in the 20ms roundtrip latency range, you don't need such a huge density of software centers to run things remotely.

The thing that surprised me is that we are very much at the infancy of the idea, and there are already about five hundred *thousands* of the places around. I work in the industry, and had no clue. The chances that there's one in range aren't bad at all. So it may be doable - if the service sells well enough, that is.

--------------------
http://www.silver-spoon.org - It's just music
..and the FB page


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2353
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1041759 - 06/04/13 07:58 PM
But that assumes no retransmission required (The biggie with TCP), and that the job is running on a machine in the nearest data center, don't forget that it is worst case latency we care about not the average or best case situation.

Worse, web serving and batch processing jobs do not really care about latency to anything like the same extent, and that is the lions share of the cloud market, so convincing a provider to roll out low latency local compute nodes will be tough.

Now it might end up with a situation where there are local compute nodes shared by all the cloud providers and that you can run a job with good physical locality, but that is not by any means certain especially as rack space in telehouse (London networking hub) is somewhat more expensive then rackspace in say Manchester, which is more expensive then say the same thing in Glasgow, guess where the cloud providers will put all the cheap compute power...

The 'cloud' (Which I suspect is often a Z series mainframe somewhere) is a good and happy making thing for those of us who once in a blue moon need **Serious computing power** (Think CFD or FEM field solvers, hiring 100 or so cores for a day can be quite cost effective), but it is the wrong weapon if you need low, deterministic latency.

Now it may very well be that an increasingly large proportion of audio production applications can run quite happily on a relatively low powered machine as even they are acquiring a lot of poke these days, so using a tablet for some production tasks may make perfect sense, but do not be thinking that you can push that reverb on the singers cans off the local machine to the cloud without consequences.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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CS70



Joined: 26/11/12
Posts: 402
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: dmills]
      #1041772 - 06/04/13 10:09 PM
Sure, basing on pure (roundtrip) transmission speed minus a 10% is rough, but it turns out we already have at least *several orders of magnitude* more data centers than the density necessary with that simplification. IP based protocols arent so terribly inefficient, plus usually on backbones and large trunks you run much faster stuff like ATM. I was intuitively thinking the same as you, until I ran the numbers and found out reliable sources for data center numbers - and was stunned. If their number grows even more and with the same pace, we might end up with millions or who knows how many of them (Watson and his 'market for at most a few computers' comes to mind..)
Further, it seems reasonable that the number of centers providing that kind of music services be a function of their commercial success, so I have now concluded that sales, not physics, is the major obstacle. Not sayin' it is a reality now, but it now seems to me impossible to exclude in a categorical way.

--------------------
http://www.silver-spoon.org - It's just music
..and the FB page


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table for two
active member


Joined: 24/03/02
Posts: 5894
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: dmills]
      #1043756 - 17/04/13 09:46 AM
Quote Bogmusic:

As Terry Pratchett put it in Small Gods (in capital letters because it was Death speaking)...

"YOU HAVE PERHAPS HEARD THE PHRASE THAT HELL IS OTHER PEOPLE? "Yes. Yes, of course."
Death nodded. IN TIME, he said, YOU WILL LEARN THAT IT IS WRONG

Regards
Simon





Hell isn't other people, rather it is other people who we feel little to no affinity towards & vice versa.

Things is techonlogy & forums have allowed introverted people as myself to not feel isolated, talking to people id be scared to approach in real life.



...



Quote OneWorld:


And they said affordable computing would lead to the paperless office - yeah sure.

As for health issues - get a life lol I wouldn't bother gazing my navel too much over whether everything is going to become cloudified or not, who knows who cares as long as I can bang a tune out one way or the other, and how times in the life of your computer do you swap out the CPU?




The thing that's going to lead to paperless office is if we really mess things up &
somehow make trees almost extinct.


We will be making music through our smart watches soon enough.


Geezer 1 "I'm on facebook, twitter, myspace, you name it im on it"
Geezer 2 "Have you a got a life?"
Geezer 1 "OMG no i havent, quick send me the link"



...



Quote Exalted Wombat:

No, they'll just be somewhere else, looking at their computers! Ever seen a bunch of kids on a night out? They're texting more than they're talking to their companions!





This is the thing i want to change.
It is the over reach of technology, taking over much of our life that i feel is one factor towards depression.
Whereas currently tech seems to be primary in so many areas, i propose that it can become secondary to enable us to live a bit more freely, doing things in the real world with people we feel affinity with.



Quote Exalted Wombat:

Composing has always been a solitary occupation. And I'm afraid a depressed person will be just as depressed in a crowd as he is sitting at home.




Composing may be a solitary process (much of the time for many), yet ideas, sprarks often happen when we interact ... either from our own personal experience; something we have read, heard, seen; when out an about.


...



Quote Exalted Wombat:



Dream on!




Dreamers of Dreams.

If we said to the general populace in the mid 1970' the things we can do with tech today, they may have said Dream On.
It is the dreamers who advance technology.

I am very interested in for instance the heart monitor passed by USFDA which clips on to iPhone, replacing expensive hospital heart check.
We will be carrying our own full fledged health monitors on a handset in say ten years ... almost start trek style.



...



Quote dmills:

But that assumes no retransmission required (The biggie with TCP), and that the job is running on a machine in the nearest data center, don't forget that it is worst case latency we care about not the average or best case situation.

Worse, web serving and batch processing jobs do not really care about latency to anything like the same extent, and that is the lions share of the cloud market, so convincing a provider to roll out low latency local compute nodes will be tough.

The 'cloud' (Which I suspect is often a Z series mainframe somewhere) is a good and happy making thing for those of us who once in a blue moon need **Serious computing power** (Think CFD or FEM field solvers, hiring 100 or so cores for a day can be quite cost effective), but it is the wrong weapon if you need low, deterministic latency.

Now it may very well be that an increasingly large proportion of audio production applications can run quite happily on a relatively low powered machine as even they are acquiring a lot of poke these days, so using a tablet for some production tasks may make perfect sense, but do not be thinking that you can push that reverb on the singers cans off the local machine to the cloud without consequences.

Regards, Dan.




Im working on this, the idea as with most ideas will come to me when i least expect it (in the kahzi propably).
What may happen is that there will be specialist data centres, eg. audio, video,



...



Quote CS70:

it seems reasonable that the number of centers providing that kind of music services be a function of their commercial success, so I have now concluded that sales, not physics, is the major obstacle. Not sayin' it is a reality now, but it now seems to me impossible to exclude in a categorical way.




I concur.
This may well require the audio video software makers to get together and say listen we can be far more efficent, cost effective, keep afloat, keep stock holders happy,
if do this.


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Sibelius19



Joined: 03/03/13
Posts: 95
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1044042 - 19/04/13 06:17 AM
I think getting out into nature and outdoors may be one of the best muses.
I wish I had the money to be mobile with music creation. can always bring the guitar with me though


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The Elf
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 9373
Loc: Sheffield, UK
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: Sibelius19]
      #1044047 - 19/04/13 07:30 AM
Quote Sibelius19:

I think getting out into nature and outdoors may be one of the best muses.
I wish I had the money to be mobile with music creation. can always bring the guitar with me though



There's nothing nicer than a flask of coffee, a couple of sandwiches, and an afternoon with the laptop down by the river. Roll on the warm days...

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.


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robinv



Joined: 31/08/04
Posts: 757
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: The Elf]
      #1044048 - 19/04/13 07:44 AM
such a bunch of rock 'n' roll hell raisers

--------------------
Molten Music Technology - Computers for doing music on


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5635
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1044070 - 19/04/13 10:01 AM
Quote table for two:

It is the over reach of technology, taking over much of our life that i feel is one factor towards depression.




Technology and modern communications are tools. It's your choice how to use them. You really can't blame them for your depression.

Now, stop moaning and tell us what you DID yesterday. What have you planned to do today and tomorrow? No-one's interested in the reasons why you couldn't!


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Mudbucker



Joined: 22/08/12
Posts: 6
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #1044102 - 19/04/13 02:34 PM
I've been working in the computer and datacomm field for 30 years and it's nice to see the Cloud starting to happen but there will still be issues for music making. Just as we are hampered with latency today because we are small potatoes to the OS developers, don't expect things to be any better when everything is in the cloud.

What will be required is high speed local storage to allow low latency operation while in the background data is being streamed up to and down from the cloud. Imagine a mixing desk with plenty of flash storage connected to teh webz, like a Zoom R16 on steroids. Or maybe workstation keyboards like the Kronos with network connections.

Certainly for professional applications tablets are even worse than laptops when it comes to I/O. That's why broadcast and film markets use expensive, rugged flash memory machines for portable recording.



For hobbyists, tablets will become dominant as apps arrive to act as front end to an online application running up in the cloud. We're getting there, already there are many apps for remote control now developers need to start adding more audio capabilities.

There's still a lot of infrastructure work to be done, even with wired broadband at work and at home I get dropouts and glitches with stereo mp3 streaming, forget about reliable high resolution multitracking over wi-fi for a few more years.


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Dynamic Mike



Joined: 31/12/06
Posts: 1971
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1044321 - 21/04/13 01:17 PM
Who would have thought sitting under a cloud would ever be seen as a cure for depression! Unfortunately isolation is more likely to be a symptom of depression than it is a cause. I frequently feel more isolated when I'm in a meeting, than I do when I'm alone & creating. Clinical depression pre-dates technology & will be around long after we're bored of it all. Personally I think life's a sine wave, peaks and troughs for all of us, we only differ in frequency and amplitude.

--------------------
Disclaimer: The views or opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the poster by the time you read this.


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Johnsy
member


Joined: 06/04/04
Posts: 158
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1044539 - 22/04/13 07:04 PM
OK, so all your software/data is remotely hosted. But you still need a display, input devices (keyboard, mouse, whatever), audio i/o and monitoring. I'm struggling to see how this is better than a PC/laptop/tablet with the apps/data stored locally.

Add in the fact that latency will be worse, and that losing your network connection/hosting service means losing your ability to do any work, and I find enthusiasm for this paradigm rather baffling.

Perhaps someone could help me out by imparting the most compelling reason/s to favour remote hosting in the context of a DAW. What can you do - or do better - that you can't with local hosting/storage?

PS, in his post above, the Elf mentions taking the laptop down to the riverbank on a summer's day. Fine now, but if everything is remotely hosted, how are you going to connect to it while you're there?

To my mind, remote hosting offers less freedom, not more.


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table for two
active member


Joined: 24/03/02
Posts: 5894
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1044601 - 23/04/13 08:58 AM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Technology and modern communications are tools. It's your choice how to use them. You really can't blame them for your depression.




The effect of technology on human spirit has been written in novels, music, movies.
At the same time medical technological advances im all in.


Quote Exalted Wombat:


Now, stop moaning and tell us what you DID yesterday. What have you planned to do today and tomorrow? No-one's interested in the reasons why you couldn't!




Isn't that what facebook is for and the very thing i am hoping people can free themselves from.
There is a better way to speak to anyone who has any form of depression (hundreds of millions) than telling them to stop moaning.



...



Quote Mudbucker:

Certainly for professional applications tablets are even worse than laptops when it comes to I/O. That's why broadcast and film markets use expensive, rugged flash memory machines for portable recording.
For hobbyists, tablets will become dominant as apps arrive to act as front end to an online application running up in the cloud. We're getting there, already there are many apps for remote control now developers need to start adding more audio capabilities.
There's still a lot of infrastructure work to be done, even with wired broadband at work and at home I get dropouts and glitches with stereo mp3 streaming, forget about reliable high resolution multitracking over wi-fi for a few more years.




Specialists will always have specialist equipment. My proposal for the cloud is for those hundreds of millions non specialists. The technology is there. The only thing is the companies will eek out as much profits, therefore drip feed it.



...



Quote Dynamic Mike:

Who would have thought sitting under a cloud would ever be seen as a cure for depression! Unfortunately isolation is more likely to be a symptom of depression than it is a cause. I frequently feel more isolated when I'm in a meeting, than I do when I'm alone & creating. Clinical depression pre-dates technology & will be around long after we're bored of it all. Personally I think life's a sine wave, peaks and troughs for all of us, we only differ in frequency and amplitude.




Depression as i have personally realised is to do with primarily a difference of our real self and our fake self.
Our fake self as influenced by parental upbringing, education, society, culture, materialism, attachment to fakeness, ego, sh*t personality (putting people down, prejudice, one upmanship so forth).

(This has been written by various persons throughout centuries).

Attachment (to technology) is thus one cause of depression.



...



Quote Johnsy:


Perhaps someone could help me out by imparting the most compelling reason/s to favour remote hosting in the context of a DAW. What can you do - or do better - that you can't with local hosting/storage?
PS, in his post above, the Elf mentions taking the laptop down to the riverbank on a summer's day. Fine now, but if everything is remotely hosted, how are you going to connect to it while you're there?
To my mind, remote hosting offers less freedom, not more.




We are at the infancy of cloud, different from what is usually termed remote hosting. Currently we are not there due to the drip feed tech companies give us, thus will take approximately a decade and half.



...



Eectrosmog adverse health affects
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/34509513/ns/health-cancer/t/electrosmog-harming- our-health/

I think this is something to watch out for.


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5635
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1044615 - 23/04/13 10:00 AM
Quote table for two:

Attachment (to technology) is thus one cause of depression.




You might find it more useful to consider it one possible SYMPTOM of depression.

Many people make great use of technology and aren't depressed.

One man's autism is another's focussed genius. One man's preference for peace and solitude is another's social dysfunction.


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Johnsy
member


Joined: 06/04/04
Posts: 158
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1044618 - 23/04/13 10:16 AM
Quote table for two:


We are at the infancy of cloud, different from what is usually termed remote hosting.





Different how?


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Goddard



Joined: 04/04/12
Posts: 943
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: Johnsy]
      #1044626 - 23/04/13 10:57 AM
Quote Johnsy:

Add in the fact that latency will be worse, and that losing your network connection/hosting service means losing your ability to do any work, and I find enthusiasm for this paradigm rather baffling.




Aye, that's the rub. How is it surgeons can remotely control robots to perform delicate tele-surgery in real time while watching over live video, yet it's still impossible to jam "in time" remotely over the net?

(btw I do actually know how/why that is, just rhetorically pointing out a point wrt latency)

Quote Johnsy:

PS, in his post above, the Elf mentions taking the laptop down to the riverbank on a summer's day. Fine now, but if everything is remotely hosted, how are you going to connect to it while you're there?




Telecomms, m'boy, telecomms. In the future every riverbank shall have a hotspot (and a cell tower or sat dish). How else are ya gonta watch the telly on your fone-tab-puter (while of course yer being 'watched' yerself)?

The technofuture depressing? Hey, there's an app (or surely a wee "tablet") for that!


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Johnsy
member


Joined: 06/04/04
Posts: 158
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: Goddard]
      #1044653 - 23/04/13 12:38 PM
Just to add a bit of perspective on the current state of play:

As part of my work, I've spent the last eight months researching audio over networks, in particular, AVB, the IEEE's new layer 2 Audio Video Bridging standards.

AVB specifies two classes of traffic, Class A and Class B. Class A is characterized by a worst-case latency of 2ms over seven 100Mb/s ("Fast") Ethernet hops. Class B is also measured over seven hops, but this time up to two of those hops can be over Wi-Fi (the other five being the same 100Mb/s links as for Class A). Worst-case (ie, guaranteed) latency for Class B traffic is 50ms.

In other words, over 97% of the latency in the Class B seven-hop model is contributed by the two Wi-Fi hops.

So why does Wi-Fi add so much latency? The answer is that it operates (obviously) over a shared medium. Since AVB requires links that either are full-duplex (Ethernet so configured), or behave as if they are, then access to that shared medium must be co-ordinated, as is indeed the case with 802.11. That introduces a non-determinism whose bounds directly determine the lowest reliable latency that can be achieved. Here's what the IEEE have to say:

"For other media, such as the current IEEE 802.11 wireless media, the latency contribution caused by the media access technology itself is the dominant factor; for example, it is unlikely that a latency contribution of less than 20 ms can be achieved in a hop based on IEEE Std 802.11."

IEEE 802.1BA-2011 Audio Video Bridging (AVB) Systems, p14

That's 20ms just for the final hop to your device, never mind the latency involved in getting it to the wireless AP in the first place. Then of course, there's the hop back. In other words, you're looking at a 40ms local round trip before you even reach 'the cloud'.


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Dynamic Mike



Joined: 31/12/06
Posts: 1971
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1044701 - 23/04/13 04:40 PM
Quote table for two:

Quote Dynamic Mike:

Who would have thought sitting under a cloud would ever be seen as a cure for depression! Unfortunately isolation is more likely to be a symptom of depression than it is a cause. I frequently feel more isolated when I'm in a meeting, than I do when I'm alone & creating. Clinical depression pre-dates technology & will be around long after we're bored of it all. Personally I think life's a sine wave, peaks and troughs for all of us, we only differ in frequency and amplitude.




Depression as i have personally realised is to do with primarily a difference of our real self and our fake self.
Our fake self as influenced by parental upbringing, education, society, culture, materialism, attachment to fakeness, ego, sh*t personality (putting people down, prejudice, one upmanship so forth).

(This has been written by various persons throughout centuries).

Attachment (to technology) is thus one cause of depression.




The causes of depression are commonly physiological or pharmacological, it's the symptoms that are psychological. Sadness, misery and loneliness are normal states we all experience. Depression frequently afflicts people who have no psychiatric triggers (eg. post-natal depression) and in theory 'should' be happy according to their life experiences. Most depressives are perfectly normal between bouts of depression, yet they have the same upbringing, influences and personality.

Attachment to technology is just as likely to be symptom of depression as it is to be a cause.

--------------------
Disclaimer: The views or opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the poster by the time you read this.


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Goddard



Joined: 04/04/12
Posts: 943
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: Dynamic Mike]
      #1044707 - 23/04/13 05:11 PM
Calls to mind "The Trap" docu series done by Adam Curtis a few years back.

Ick, feelings.

Just take your meds, Tex, if you don't want to be run in for criminal drug evasion...


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Folderol



Joined: 15/11/08
Posts: 3556
Loc: Rochester, UK
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: Johnsy]
      #1044743 - 23/04/13 09:08 PM
Quote Johnsy:

Just to add a bit of perspective on the current state of play:

As part of my work, I've spent the last eight months researching audio over networks, in particular, AVB, the IEEE's new layer 2 Audio Video Bridging standards.

AVB specifies two classes of traffic, Class A and Class B. Class A is characterized by a worst-case latency of 2ms over seven 100Mb/s ("Fast") Ethernet hops. Class B is also measured over seven hops, but this time up to two of those hops can be over Wi-Fi (the other five being the same 100Mb/s links as for Class A). Worst-case (ie, guaranteed) latency for Class B traffic is 50ms.

In other words, over 97% of the latency in the Class B seven-hop model is contributed by the two Wi-Fi hops.

So why does Wi-Fi add so much latency? The answer is that it operates (obviously) over a shared medium. Since AVB requires links that either are full-duplex (Ethernet so configured), or behave as if they are, then access to that shared medium must be co-ordinated, as is indeed the case with 802.11. That introduces a non-determinism whose bounds directly determine the lowest reliable latency that can be achieved. Here's what the IEEE have to say:

"For other media, such as the current IEEE 802.11 wireless media, the latency contribution caused by the media access technology itself is the dominant factor; for example, it is unlikely that a latency contribution of less than 20 ms can be achieved in a hop based on IEEE Std 802.11."

IEEE 802.1BA-2011 Audio Video Bridging (AVB) Systems, p14

That's 20ms just for the final hop to your device, never mind the latency involved in getting it to the wireless AP in the first place. Then of course, there's the hop back. In other words, you're looking at a 40ms local round trip before you even reach 'the cloud'.



I've been watching this (casually) for a while myself. Class A seems really useful and potentially system agnostic. Anything that can sensibly be called a computer has a fast Ethernet port these days.

Class B seems to be directed at one way AV streaming/distribution where the latency would be of far less importance.

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)


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Goddard



Joined: 04/04/12
Posts: 943
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: Folderol]
      #1044771 - 24/04/13 04:20 AM
I don't think anyone expects AVB class B to be practical for "low latency" purposes, that's what wired class A will be used for. Audinate's Dante supposedly isn't usable over WiFi either.

Higher throughput WiFi 5G (802.11ac) and 6G (802.11ad) are on the horizon though (some 5G devices are already launched), and should offer significantly lower latency for WiFi hops. We'll see...


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2353
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: Goddard]
      #1045111 - 25/04/13 08:51 PM
Class A however requires hardware timestamping in the network hardware is just using a Gig-E port is not going to work well in most cases (It might be OK for a pure data consumer), if you think wordclock has some odd pathologies you just wait till you hook up a load of gear with software faking the packet timestamps.....

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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table for two
active member


Joined: 24/03/02
Posts: 5894
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1047117 - 08/05/13 12:11 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote table for two:

Attachment (to technology) is thus one cause of depression.




You might find it more useful to consider it one possible SYMPTOM of depression.
Many people make great use of technology and aren't depressed.

One man's autism is another's focussed genius. One man's preference for peace and solitude is another's social dysfunction.




It is not technology that causes depression, rather attachment, dependency ... this applies to a lot of things.

I have already written medical advances im 100% in ... i mentioned Dr Eric Topol and the heart monitor for iphone passed by USFDA, i read articles on Apple website where ipad helped the autistic and turned round a struggling school.


...


Quote Dynamic Mike:


The causes of depression are commonly physiological or pharmacological, it's the symptoms that are psychological. Sadness, misery and loneliness are normal states we all experience. Depression frequently afflicts people who have no psychiatric triggers (eg. post-natal depression) and in theory 'should' be happy according to their life experiences. Most depressives are perfectly normal between bouts of depression, yet they have the same upbringing, influences and personality.




The difference between depression and hurt is there is very little we can do about hurt.

As hurt arises from abandonment, aloneness, being abused, bullied, illness, loss, no one giving us love & understanding, things adversely happening to animals, people we care about. I.e. it is our real self. From hurt arises the most moving beautiful art, literature, music, poetry, charitable acts.

Depression as i have gradually realised from my own decades of experience is all to do with our fake, secondary, straw self & society ... this begins from our childhood, carried on through school, college, uni, work, interests, hobbies. As well the drugs we are given, the chemicals in food, household & personal products.



...


Quote Johnsy:

Quote table for two:


We are at the infancy of cloud, different from what is usually termed remote hosting.





Different how?




Traditionally remote hosting has been say we have a water tank in our house, to get that water anywhere in our house we just have pipes with taps ... thus we are restricted to where we can access our water, and can have only our water.
Cloud computing allows this water from our tank, and all manner of drinks, to be had whenever we are.



...



Quote Johnsy:

Just to add a bit of perspective on the current state of play:

As part of my work, I've spent the last eight months researching audio over networks, in particular, AVB, the IEEE's new layer 2 Audio Video Bridging standards.In other words, you're looking at a 40ms local round trip before you even reach 'the cloud'.




Quote dmills:

Class A however requires hardware timestamping in the network hardware is just using a Gig-E port is not going to work well in most cases (It might be OK for a pure data consumer), if you think wordclock has some odd pathologies you just wait till you hook up a load of gear with software faking the packet timestamps.....

Regards, Dan.





If we base it on current technology that companies are making available now, then no. We will require minimum terrabit ethernet, gigabit wifi.
This is why this thread is the way the computing is going. It will take us, as i have mentioned, about 10-15 years due to drip feeding by tech companies.



...



Quote Goddard:



Aye, that's the rub. How is it surgeons can remotely control robots to perform delicate tele-surgery in real time while watching over live video, yet it's still impossible to jam "in time" remotely over the net?

(btw I do actually know how/why that is, just rhetorically pointing out a point wrt latency)
Telecomms, m'boy, telecomms. In the future every riverbank shall have a hotspot (and a cell tower or sat dish). How else are ya gonta watch the telly on your fone-tab-puter (while of course yer being 'watched' yerself)?

The technofuture depressing? Hey, there's an app (or surely a wee "tablet") for that!




AYE its out there just not handed out to the masses until we pay up £billions over the years ... we all gonna be toast one way or another.

Eectrosmog adverse health affects
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/34509513/ns/health-cancer/t/electrosmog-harming- our-health/


...


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Johnsy
member


Joined: 06/04/04
Posts: 158
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: table for two]
      #1047253 - 09/05/13 08:48 AM
Quote Table For Two:



We will require minimum terrabit ethernet, gigabit wifi.




It's a matter of latency rather than bandwidth.


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2353
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: The way computing is going and the musician new [Re: Johnsy]
      #1047350 - 09/05/13 09:25 PM
Lets put some numbers on it:

For a saturated 100 base T network link, and 24 bits at 48Khz we have a theoretical channel count of 1e8/(24 * 48e3) = 1e5/(24 * 48) = ~85 tracks.

So even today network bandwidth is not a insurmountable problem, even modern wifi over an uncontended link can manage that, but lets look at some latency numbers:

dan@Laptop:~$ ping www.google.com
PING www.google.com (173.194.67.103) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from www.google.com (173.194.67.103): icmp_req=1 ttl=50 time=46 ms
64 bytes from www.google.com (173.194.67.103): icmp_req=2 ttl=50 time=31 ms
64 bytes from www.google.com (173.194.67.103): icmp_req=3 ttl=50 time=30 ms
64 bytes from www.google.com (173.194.67.103): icmp_req=4 ttl=50 time=32 ms
^C
And those are at the good end of fairly typical sorts of numbers.

Now you can do MUCH better with point to point links as opposed to packet switched ones (There is a reason radio still to this day often uses 64 or 128Kb ISDN links for outside program contribution. Do you really want to pay for a high bandwidth point to point link to your 'cloud', personally I keep machines that need that sort of thing in the basement and do my point to point links with gig-e.

Regards, Dan,

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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