I'm biting the bullet and giving my self-built PC a full system overhaul and therefore finally need to upgrade from XP.

Is it worth me waiting a couple of months for Windows 8 or will Windows 7 be more reliable? Will 8 give me better performance and future-proofing?

I mainly run Pro Tools, but also Reaper and SADiE.

Thanks!

Hi J!

In my opinion it's never very wise to buy an operating system when it first comes out, just in case you have any problems with drivers for your existing hardware devices (thers' nothing more frustrating than not being able to use something until its manufacturer comes up with an updated driver to cure some incompatibility problem )

There's also quite a lot of controversy about Windows 8, with on the one hand people thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread for PCs because of its Metro touch-screen-style interface, and on the other hand people taking an intense dislike to its Metro touch-screen-style interface and immediately switching it off.

The chances of Windows 8 improving the performance of audio applications is also slim – by all means get it once the fuss has died down, but in the meantime Windows 7 is an extremely good bet, and relatively mature into the bargain.


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Many thanks for the reply and info Martin. I think it sounds like Windows 7 may be the best bet! Cheers.

My pleasure - good luck with your overhaul!


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-8-a-benchmark-for-music-production-applic ations/

Quote Goddard:

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http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-8-a-benchmark-for-music-production-applic ations/

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I don't get this, my experience of Win 8 is that it has horrible DPC latency. They don't seem to have covered that.

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www.myspace.com/shambolic-charm

Quote Shambolic Charm:

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Quote Goddard:

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http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-8-a-benchmark-for-music-production-applic ations/

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I don't get this, my experience of Win 8 is that it has horrible DPC latency. They don't seem to have covered that.

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It may have been a rogue driver revision in your build through causing that through, if your setup wasn't identical to their own.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Martin Walker:

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There's also quite a lot of controversy about Windows 8, with on the one hand people thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread for PCs because of its Metro touch-screen-style interface, and on the other hand people taking an intense dislike to its Metro touch-screen-style interface and immediately switching it off.

---

And both missing the point that Metro is only a skin, and makes no difference at all once you're running a program.

Though the switch to defeat it completely in favour of the Desktop seems to be missing in later betas, the Desktop is still there, and a third-party solution for bypassing Metro doubtless won't be long in appearing!

Phew! Yes, you can have the Start Menu back in Windows 8 Preview. It's too big and lumpy, but I'm sure someone will come up with a neater version.

I am NOT going to be one of those people who glances at a new interface, cries "BUT IT'S DIFFERENT!!!!" and runs away whimpering. But Windows 8 may need a bit more learning and tweaking than we've had to do before.

And yes, I ran DPC checker, and it reads consistently higher than for Windows 7 on the same computer. Which may, or may not mean anything real.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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I am NOT going to be one of those people who glances at a new interface, cries "BUT IT'S DIFFERENT!!!!" and runs away whimpering.

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I've never been one of those people - I typically embrace change. But that Metro interface is just sooooo pathetically kludgy. It is a close cousin of the XBox 360 interface and that's a pile of poo too!

It looks like someone at MS was given the task of putting a friendly face on the front of Win8 and mistook wholesale removal of functionality for simplification. It's one of the reasons that nobody uses Media Centre!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Oh I use windows Media Centre! Windows 8 reminds me so much of the old windows before XP when you had an interface layered on top of the old MSDos system it just has that feel again. Peter have you actually managed to get Windows 8 below 1000ms DPC latency. There has been a lot of discussion on this on other forums and few can get it any lower.

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www.myspace.com/shambolic-charm

Quote Martin Walker:

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Hi There's also quite a lot of controversy about Windows 8, with on the one hand people thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread for PCs because of its Metro touch-screen-style interface

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Considering that my single biggest aspiration for my PC is that it can have a second portable lightweight screen to function as multi-touch controller interface, Windows 8 promises to be just what we need!

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote Shambolic Charm:

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Peter have you actually managed to get Windows 8 below 1000ms DPC latency. There has been a lot of discussion on this on other forums and few can get it any lower.

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I'm not going to start testing util I get a RTM revision as too much can change between now and then. I'm not suprised to be honest, but then none of the audio drivers will have been optimized for it yet (happy to be proved wrong) so I see it as being a complete waste of time testing until the codebase gets finalized.

In the limited few days I have used it I liked it on a touch screen interface for some day to day use, but then once I got it down to just it's desktop it just annoyed me, which admittedly in itself means nothing and I'm witholding judgement as many an Windows GUI has felt wrong in beta and turned out fine, but when even the Guardian appears to be sticking the boot in about the lack of a proper start menu, you have to wonder if maybe they went too far with this one. I'd agree with it looking like XBMC in design and whilst I used to love that for streaming movies, not once did I say to myself "Ooooh imagine if my workstation was like this".

I suppose we'll see what crops up in due course...

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

There was no "Start Menu" in Window 3.1 - all the programs were in the "Program Manager" window on the desktop.

When Windows 95 came out I thought the Start Menu was ridiculous! I just put icons on my desktop so I could click on them there as before.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

I totally agree. I've never found much use for the Start button - it's uselessly cluttersome. All the stuff I need is on the desktop, or in the Quicklaunch bar.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Windows 7 FINALLY has an intelligent indexing system, so I basically never need the Start menu - i just press the Windows key on the keyboard and type what I want, and then Windows 7 usually finds it.
Hopefully Windows 8 will let me bark commands at my computer in a RADA-esque tone of voice, such as "RESTORE THE TELEPORT!!!" and "You *CANNOT* reject a direct command!!". The icing on the cake would be a little activate key one slot in by USB, and it makes that Dick Mills sound for Orac. Although these days it would probably come with a vial of pigs blood and some herberts.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Concerning the use of DAWs and digital recording with Win8 in the RT 'Metro' mode, I believe I saw the most ridiculous statement from Microsoft recently claiming that 100 ms of latency was 'okay'. RT is going to be entirely rubbish for our camp, so I suggest forgetting all about that.

Now, assuming one has all the proper drivers and no DPC issues, the real Win8 (again, none of this Metro desktop nonsense) has measurably lower CPU processing, perhaps by a good 10 to 15% or so. I forget the exact explanation now for what I observed, but a large part of the improvement in Win8 comes from the way each core is presented with and allowed to handle any given process. I believe the blog I saw referenced may explain this, or else go to MS's pages for the full explanation. The bottom line is that if your PC is all set and configured properly, there will be a lower processing cost for digital audio; HOWEVER, I doubt it will cause very many to rush off to acquire Win8 and dump their 7, because the improvement is not huge (to my mind anyway). Further, anyone with a good and sturdy working machine now may wish to stay with 7.

All this aside, one must understand the entire philosophy behind the design of Win8 to understand the changes that have been made. This new Win8 was NOT designed for you, audio buff and/or DAW user. No, it was designed so your email can be best friends with your Facebook and your Skype and your smart phone and your texts, and your photo collection that you will post to the world daily and obnoxiously forever. All the Aeroglass has been stripped away, leaving only the most ugly of tiles in the most ugly of colours, containing each of the social rubbish programmes I mentioned -- and more, one to a tile. If all you intend to be is a social creature and balance your finances and play with your photos, then Win8 is for you.

I fully realise that large numbers of people complain each time Windows receives a full makeover, just as very many did when the mouse was first introduced, but honestly this Win8 is about as ugly as 'modern' can be in our age. I personally find it hideous to look at. Yes, many users will be switching off as much of this as possible, looking for something more like Win7 under the surface. Win8 looks like it was designed for illiterates who will use it mainly for their mail, Fb, and to grunt out frivolous phrases on their Twitter tile.

And their PAD coming out this autumn as well? You can't use the cheaper RT ARM-equipped version for anything DAW; it will require buying the pricey full Win8 version which, reportedly, all stripped down of any extras will cost more than a fully loaded iPad. Add to this that devs are having mixed feelings about whether to produce an App version of their products for it -- some outright refusing, others hopping on the bandwagon. But I digress. I think I'm going to go out and purchase an extra disk with Win7 on it, sit back for at least a year and watch yet another probable FAIL for Microsoft (as in Bing, SkyDrive, Live Mail, IE9, IE9 64-bit, etc.) transpire.

Microsoft make the same kind of mistakes time & time again. Music applications (pro & consumer) are not given nowhere near enough attention. The new surface tablet that they are bringing out looks the part, it caught my eye & considering I have a laptop/win7, imac & ipad, they could have brought in a strong product that would have potentially change the game once again but then I read on Createdigitalmusic that they feel 100ms latency is more than fine! The pc vs mac debates came about (in DAW land at least) due to microsoft not being bothered to make an OS that was suitable for pro music. no matter what PC users say, Mac is better for making music, but not due to its hardware - But the OS.

Back to the the original question. As already advised, I would stick with Win7 if I was you. I'm not to happy with win7 for music making, it still has its quirks & faults, once you got it running ok then alls well, but start tinkering a little, even little things such as re plugging in all your usb gear on different ports can be enough to confuse windows machines.

No, you only think OSx is better for making music, benchmarks say otherwise.

http://www.dawbench.com/win7-v-osx-1.htm

I think the DPC latency tool needs to be re-coded for the new kernel before I'd use it to benchmark Win 8.

I run Win 8 daily with lower driver latency, higher track counts and less issues then Win 7.

Quote The Elf:

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I totally agree. I've never found much use for the Start button - it's uselessly cluttersome. All the stuff I need is on the desktop, or in the Quicklaunch bar.

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When playing with the W8 preview, I wanted the Snipping Tool to take a screenshot. If I don't have a shortcut for it, and don't know that it's called Snippingtool (no space) how do you suggest I find it? What if I have a vague idea there IS such a tool, but don't know the name? I have a look in the Start Menu/Accessories - right?

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote The Elf:

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I totally agree. I've never found much use for the Start button - it's uselessly cluttersome. All the stuff I need is on the desktop, or in the Quicklaunch bar.

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When playing with the W8 preview, I wanted the Snipping Tool to take a screenshot. If I don't have a shortcut for it, and don't know that it's called Snippingtool (no space) how do you suggest I find it? What if I have a vague idea there IS such a tool, but don't know the name? I have a look in the Start Menu/Accessories - right?

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Nope, it's on my desktop in a folder called 'Utilities'!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote The Elf:

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I totally agree. I've never found much use for the Start button - it's uselessly cluttersome. All the stuff I need is on the desktop, or in the Quicklaunch bar.

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When playing with the W8 preview, I wanted the Snipping Tool to take a screenshot. If I don't have a shortcut for it, and don't know that it's called Snippingtool (no space) how do you suggest I find it? What if I have a vague idea there IS such a tool, but don't know the name? I have a look in the Start Menu/Accessories - right?

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RTFM? Oh wait...

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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Windows 7 FINALLY has an intelligent indexing system, so I basically never need the Start menu - i just press the Windows key on the keyboard and type what I want, and then Windows 7 usually finds it.

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I hate the Windows 7 indexing system. I can never find anything with it and it still feels like a step backwards from the XP one. I'd have gone spare by now if I hadn't found and installed "Everything" to do my indexing and search on my desktop. Attention Microsoft that is how should work.

Quote feline1:

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Hopefully Windows 8 will let me bark commands at my computer in a RADA-esque tone of voice, such as "RESTORE THE TELEPORT!!!" and "You *CANNOT* reject a direct command!!". The icing on the cake would be a little activate key one slot in by USB, and it makes that Dick Mills sound for Orac. Although these days it would probably come with a vial of pigs blood and some herberts.

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Heh. Apprently "Dragon" are working on a 3rd Q release on a project that should cover all that.

Quote The Telenator:

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Concerning the use of DAWs and digital recording with Win8 in the RT 'Metro' mode, I believe I saw the most ridiculous statement from Microsoft recently claiming that 100 ms of latency was 'okay'. RT is going to be entirely rubbish for our camp, so I suggest forgetting all about that.

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Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...

Aero anyone?

Quote The Telenator:

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All this aside, one must understand the entire philosophy behind the design of Win8 to understand the changes that have been made.

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I think most people on here already do... hence why they are pissed off.

Quote The Telenator:

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This new Win8 was NOT designed for you, audio buff and/or DAW user. No, it was designed so your email can be best friends with your Facebook and your Skype and your smart phone and your texts, and your photo collection that you will post to the world daily and obnoxiously forever. All the Aeroglass has been stripped away, leaving only the most ugly of tiles in the most ugly of colours, containing each of the social rubbish programmes I mentioned -- and more, one to a tile. If all you intend to be is a social creature and balance your finances and play with your photos, then Win8 is for you.

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And I'm still waiting to see just what the Pro version brings. I don't see many companies being overjoyed at installing a media player onto their accounts desktops. I'm really hopeing the Pro version lets you strip out all this junk and use it properly. If they don't I'm envisioning business take up to be about as widely spread as the Vista one...

Quick show of hands, who here is in an office using Vista?)

Noone, thought so.

Quote The Telenator:

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I fully realise that large numbers of people complain each time Windows receives a full makeover, just as very many did when the mouse was first introduced,

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At least you still had the DOS layer running underneath and full access to the CLI *mubble*mubble*Gerrofmylawn*mubble*mubble*

Quote etai:

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Microsoft make the same kind of mistakes time & time again. Music applications (pro & consumer) are not given nowhere near enough attention.

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Quote etai:

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The pc vs mac debates came about (in DAW land at least) due to microsoft not being bothered to make an OS that was suitable for pro music. no matter what PC users say, Mac is better for making music, but not due to its hardware - But the OS.

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The first statement is true simply because we're at best a tiny fraction of the market. The second statement is true if your referring to the native MS code base but then thats why we have ASIO which levels the field.

Quote etai:

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Back to the the original question. As already advised, I would stick with Win7 if I was you. I'm not to happy with win7 for music making, it still has its quirks & faults, once you got it running ok then alls well, but start tinkering a little, even little things such as re plugging in all your usb gear on different ports can be enough to confuse windows machines.

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Hmmm.... Win7 machines will (well should) force (or it does in most cases) a re-detect and driver reinstall if do that, althrough yeah, it was a common on older OS's I've not really noticed it so much on the current builds. What other problems are bugging you with Win7?

Quote The Elf:

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Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote The Elf:

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I totally agree. I've never found much use for the Start button - it's uselessly cluttersome. All the stuff I need is on the desktop, or in the Quicklaunch bar.

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When playing with the W8 preview, I wanted the Snipping Tool to take a screenshot. If I don't have a shortcut for it, and don't know that it's called Snippingtool (no space) how do you suggest I find it? What if I have a vague idea there IS such a tool, but don't know the name? I have a look in the Start Menu/Accessories - right?

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Nope, it's on my desktop in a folder called 'Utilities'!

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Would never work for me, too much other crap cluttering up my desktop to start putting launch folders on there!

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote feline1:

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Hopefully Windows 8 will let me bark commands at my computer in a RADA-esque tone of voice, such as "RESTORE THE TELEPORT!!!" and "You *CANNOT* reject a direct command!!". The icing on the cake would be a little activate key one slot in by USB, and it makes that Dick Mills sound for Orac. Although these days it would probably come with a vial of pigs blood and some herberts.

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Heh. Apprently "Dragon" are working on a 3rd Q release on a project that should cover all that.

---

In my other life, as apart from musician, I studied and was working in an area called 'computational linguistics', concerned with software such as DragonSpeak, there was the IBM equivalent. In the early days of artificial intelligence, it was thought it was possible to program a computer to understand natural language, much easier to do with music as the 'universe of discourse' is a fixed lexicon and grammar - middle c will always be middle c whether on a piano, moog, guitar or whatever, there is universal aggreement, same with the syntax, the notes of the c major chord, c, e, g will be that.

Seemed the same with natural language at first instance. An English sentence can consist of determiner, noun, verb, determiner, noun. That construction allows for "the cat drank the milk" and works equally for "your dog chewed the bone" "a frog likes flies"

But following that construction the computer would be happy with "the bone chewed the dog" so we went onto program the construction as "determiner, animate noun, verb, determiner, noun" so only an animate thing can do something to a noun

The dog can chew the bone but the bone cannot chew the dog.

But then we say "rust eats iron" what do we do then? How do we program for that occasion?

During the Cold War, mega-money was thrown at this area of science. Because the USA did not have enough Russian translators. At first it was thought the task was doable. For example to translate from English to Spanish you put your words in the lexicon(database) and define the syntax.

For example

English = det, adjective, noun - the black cat
Spanish = det, noun, adjective - el gato negro (the cat black)

But, and this is an oft used anecdote, it was realised that to really test the tranlation code, the computer should translate both ways and there should be no change, so they tried it on Shakespeare - "The flesh is willing but the spirit is weak" and the computer came back with "The meat is OK but the vodka is rubbish"

I became almost obsessed with the conundrum of can a computer ever be programmed to understand unseen natural language, eg understand, comprehend, translate anything thrown at it - language wise of course. Seems not, as a computer does not have world knowledge, a big mouse will never be as big as a small elephant, so that for example throws up the problem of defining what is 'big' and what is 'small', are they adjectives of quality(the beautiful mouse) or quantity and if so what values will they take?


What am I getting at here? It will be a long time before we can 'speak' to the computer and it being able to understand us. When we type the phrase "fish and chips" there are the 3 distinct words, but when we articulate it, it comes out as "fishnchips" which will not exist in a computer's lexicon, though we can add the phrase to the database.

Consider the word 'gay' Years ago someone could be described as gay when they were of a chirrupy disposition, not so these says, though of course I suppose you could have a gay, gay?

If there is anyone that could solve these linguistic connundrums and get the computer to understand language, that person would become rich beyond all compare. And anyway, the exasperating thing about computers is they do what we tell them to do and not what we want then to do!

For the forseeable we are stuck with the mouse, that being said, there are those paraplegics who due to their incredible patience and determination, use a computer to it's full extent using a range of special interface devices/methods

"You mean 'gay' as in 'rubbish'?"

Look, if The Hobbit could do it, Microsoft oughta be able to.

Quote:

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>Elrond gives you some lunch.
>Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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"You mean 'gay' as in 'rubbish'?"

Look, if The Hobbit could do it, Microsoft oughta be able to.

Quote:

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>Elrond gives you some lunch.
>Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold

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But they (MS) can't - have a pop at it yourself if you feel like making a fortune and parse the sentence "Time flies like an arrow but fruit flies like a banana" or "it's raining Datsun cogs" with full sematic, contextual and metaphorical tagging etc.

I won't wait around for your answer, I might have many summers before me, but not enough of them to see this solved ;-)

I'll give you a link to get you started...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_flies_like_an_arrow;_fruit_flies_like_a_ banana

Your answer can be in C++, Prolog, LISP or indeed any other language you feel ok with

Quote OneWorld:

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If there is anyone that could solve these linguistic connundrums and get the computer to understand language, that person would become rich beyond all compare. And anyway, the exasperating thing about computers is they do what we tell them to do and not what we want then to do!

For the forseeable we are stuck with the mouse, that being said, there are those paraplegics who due to their incredible patience and determination, use a computer to it's full extent using a range of special interface devices/methods

---

My response there was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek (another joy of a machine trying to understand human language!) but your message is well taken and some interesting points in there

I was kinda joking about the claims being made about Dragon Drive/Nuance which is supposed to be a leap forward. I've no idea if it is/will be but having seen the rest of the tech on the market I'm right with your statement 100% at this time!

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote OneWorld:

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If there is anyone that could solve these linguistic connundrums and get the computer to understand language, that person would become rich beyond all compare. And anyway, the exasperating thing about computers is they do what we tell them to do and not what we want then to do!

For the forseeable we are stuck with the mouse, that being said, there are those paraplegics who due to their incredible patience and determination, use a computer to it's full extent using a range of special interface devices/methods

---

My response there was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek (another joy of a machine trying to understand human language!) but your message is well taken and some interesting points in there

I was kinda joking about the claims being made about Dragon Drive/Nuance which is supposed to be a leap forward. I've no idea if it is/will be but having seen the rest of the tech on the market I'm right with your statement 100% at this time!

---

All these attempts all promised to be the equivalent of the Babel Fish, but once put to use, proved to be woefully inadequate, except where the Universe of Discourse was well defined, say translating medical, enginnering, weather forecasting etc as the lexical, syntactical and semantic elements are defined and wholly unambiguous.

In fact I had the function of IRQs on a computer explained to me in linguistic terms. Stood in a crowded room with conversation buzzing, the brain can hear and comprehend both the face to face dialogue between individuals, but also the peripheral conversations, yet we might be engaged in dialogue with someone but then hear someone's name or an event mentioned by someone else, so momentarily our brain gives precedence to that whilst it decides the priority, and then the fire alarm goes off and everyones' attention is drawn to that.

Just as if we are playing back some music in the DAW, the screen is scrolling and being redrawn, the soundcard is doing it's bit etc, and then we use the keyboard or mouse and they take priority, an interrupt request - sort of all made sense to me then.

And where this, what some people regard as mickey mouse science, has had its successes. A friend of mine suffers from a disease which meant her survival meant she had part of her brain cut away, that part which dealt with hearing, she is now profoundly deaf. But now she has a telephone which actually displays the text as spoken by the hearing person she is in conversation with and together with her computer she now says she feels much more connected with the outside world, she can actually communicate with teh hearing community and not just communicate by way of sign language.

What you are basically moaning about is that computers frequently fail a Turing test -
but humans fail it all the time too. Other so much phishing and spam would never claim victims.
I bet a large proportion of the masses would quite happily de-evolve linguistically to be able to speak in a false Microsoftian patois.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote OneWorld:

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In fact I had the function of IRQs on a computer explained to me in linguistic terms. Stood in a crowded room with conversation buzzing, the brain can hear and comprehend both the face to face dialogue between individuals, but also the peripheral conversations, yet we might be engaged in dialogue with someone but then hear someone's name or an event mentioned by someone else, so momentarily our brain gives precedence to that whilst it decides the priority, and then the fire alarm goes off and everyones' attention is drawn to that.

---

I do quite like that.

Quote OneWorld:

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And where this, what some people regard as mickey mouse science, has had its successes. A friend of mine suffers from a disease which meant her survival meant she had part of her brain cut away, that part which dealt with hearing, she is now profoundly deaf. But now she has a telephone which actually displays the text as spoken by the hearing person she is in conversation with and together with her computer she now says she feels much more connected with the outside world, she can actually communicate with teh hearing community and not just communicate by way of sign language.

---

Yeah, I seen apps designed to do that and the realtime use and whilst not the epic starships computer style almost sentient being level AI that sci-fi promises (and we all want to see), I completely agree that the tech even at that level it is now can be fundamentally life changing for a number of people even in it's current state which I suppose a lot of people who only get to see the mass market spin off products maybe don't realise. It's certainly come a long way in the last few decades and whilst I appreciate the sort of power and complex AI that will be required to get where we'd like it to go... and whilst we wait it's always fun to observe how far they've gotten competing for the Loebner Prize!

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote feline1:

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I bet a large proportion of the masses would quite happily de-evolve linguistically to be able to speak in a false Microsoftian patois.

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What? You don't speak Blackberry?

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Perhaps the BBC had it right, though: it would be much cheaper to just pay some guy to sit behind a curtain with a crate of brown ale and do a voice for your computer. Think of the jobs it could provide!

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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Perhaps the BBC had it right, though: it would be much cheaper to just pay some guy to sit behind a curtain with a crate of brown ale and do a voice for your computer. Think of the jobs it could provide!

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Inspired by John Searle's 'Chinese Room' no doubt but brought up to date with the ale

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote OneWorld:

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In fact I had the function of IRQs on a computer explained to me in linguistic terms. Stood in a crowded room with conversation buzzing, the brain can hear and comprehend both the face to face dialogue between individuals, but also the peripheral conversations, yet we might be engaged in dialogue with someone but then hear someone's name or an event mentioned by someone else, so momentarily our brain gives precedence to that whilst it decides the priority, and then the fire alarm goes off and everyones' attention is drawn to that.

---

I do quite like that.

Quote OneWorld:

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And where this, what some people regard as mickey mouse science, has had its successes. A friend of mine suffers from a disease which meant her survival meant she had part of her brain cut away, that part which dealt with hearing, she is now profoundly deaf. But now she has a telephone which actually displays the text as spoken by the hearing person she is in conversation with and together with her computer she now says she feels much more connected with the outside world, she can actually communicate with teh hearing community and not just communicate by way of sign language.

---

Yeah, I seen apps designed to do that and the realtime use and whilst not the epic starships computer style almost sentient being level AI that sci-fi promises (and we all want to see), I completely agree that the tech even at that level it is now can be fundamentally life changing for a number of people even in it's current state which I suppose a lot of people who only get to see the mass market spin off products maybe don't realise. It's certainly come a long way in the last few decades and whilst I appreciate the sort of power and complex AI that will be required to get where we'd like it to go... and whilst we wait it's always fun to observe how far they've gotten competing for the Loebner Prize!

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I actually came across this subject of A.I and more specifically 'computational linguistics' when I went to university as a 'mature student' when I get to mature I don't know yet. But anyway after having done a classical music course some 10 years before, after doing the 3 years of formal study, and going for my first job interview, and being asked during that interview - "Commendable that you have studied, but why study a fairy's subject like music?" mind you the interviewer was a loser of a photocopier salesman, made Ricky Gervais in the Office look sophisticated and urbane.

SO 10 years later I went back to university to bring my music skills up to date, and signed up for a Music Technology degree. I was only a week into that course when it became clear that Music Technology was as much use as a chocolate teapot. I think it was the new kid on the block and anyone that could knock out Frere Jaque on the recorder and at least get Cubase to open was promoted to lecturer. So I quit, but needed a course to do pretty quick, and came across this Artificial Intelligence gig.

To my surprise, what did help was my background in music, which like computer programming requires abstract thinking, and we spent such a lot of time on the holy grail of machine learning, knowledge aquisition, knowledge bases and such. So way back in the day, Big Blue was considered intelligent, when now we know that is naive to say the least, Big Blue was a computer that was good at playing chess, and machine learning in it's case was a realtively easy endeavour, as chess has many many moves, but the number is finite.

But to tackle the complexity of natural language, is a probelm of a completely different order. I went on to Aberdeen University where they wrote a computer programme to make up jokes. Stating the irony, metaphor, context, shared knowledge etc would show a great level of world knowledge.

Well even my jokes....a proton walked into a bar and said "Hello barman, I'll have a Guiness, topped up with a drop of lime, then a squirt of Babycham, throw in a noggin of Bacardi and a shake of lager" The barman says "Are you sure?" and the proton says "I'm positive!"......are better than what the joking computer came up with!

In fact there are comparisons to be made with those computer programmes that pop up from time to time that compose music, having studied the structure and form of that of great composers. But nothing they have done amounts to much more than a glorified band in a Box application.

I even bought a book that was written by a exhalted psychologist that purported to explain the process, the mind set needed, etc of composing music - he (the author) didn't get anywhere near, it was right load of tripe. I suppose there are some aspects of higher thinking, writing, composing etc that are beyond our understanding and possibly meant to be that way?

I've gone a long way from a talking Win8 computer! That's the trouble with being a human - too easily distracted!

Quote OneWorld:

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I've gone a long way from a talking Win8 computer! That's the trouble with being a human - too easily distracted!

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You could say thats the trouble with computers through, they are not!

At least a person whilst a child typically learn by being inquisitive and exploring the world where as computers simply process what is fed into them, so really we have yet to even develop a machine to the level of a baby as far as processing information and thinking for itself goes and the ability to learn and act on the data. I dare say the day someone invents an easily distracted computer is the day we invent a fully human like A.I.

I think I've also just worked out why the Terminator Skynet senario could never happen too... Sure an A.i. could get to the "take over the world" stage, but I suspect it'd would develop a sudden love for kitten photos shortly after sentience is achieved and procastinate forever more

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote OneWorld:

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I've gone a long way from a talking Win8 computer! That's the trouble with being a human - too easily distracted!

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You could say thats the trouble with computers through, they are not!

At least a person whilst a child typically learn by being inquisitive and exploring the world where as computers simply process what is fed into them, so really we have yet to even develop a machine to the level of a baby as far as processing information and thinking for itself goes and the ability to learn and act on the data. I dare say the day someone invents an easily distracted computer is the day we invent a fully human like A.I.

I think I've also just worked out why the Terminator Skynet senario could never happen too... Sure an A.i. could get to the "take over the world" stage, but I suspect it'd would develop a sudden love for kitten photos shortly after sentience is achieved and procastinate forever more

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LOL - you got it in one!

I suppose what the scientists should work towards is organic intelligence instead of the artificial

Quote feline1:

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What you are basically moaning about is that computers frequently fail a Turing test -
but humans fail it all the time too. Other so much phishing and spam would never claim victims.
I bet a large proportion of the masses would quite happily de-evolve linguistically to be able to speak in a false Microsoftian patois.

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If I may grab an IRQ :

I went to the Turing exhibition at the Science Museum last week. Notable for being one of the few areas in the building where almost everyone appeared to be 60 or over. There were fascinating conversations to be overheard, a lot of the visitors had actually "been there".

There's also this:
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/educators/whats_on_for_your_group/gallerie s/oramics.aspx

Woefully under-publicised, and hidden away on a balcony. We've all HEARD of the Fairlight. Ever actually seen one?

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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There's also this:
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/educators/whats_on_for_your_group/gallerie s/oramics.aspx

Woefully under-publicised, and hidden away on a balcony. We've all HEARD of the Fairlight. Ever actually seen one?

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Yep - we had one at college which you weren't really allowed to play on but i did manage to persuade a lecturer to give me a demo, and there were all the classic sounds on huge 10" floppy disks. Of course i have one on my iPad now for a lot less than the 50 grand they used to cost.

Loved the exhibition - although it was a bit short and missing a few key bits of gear and it really needed to have me there demoing the gear. Daphne Oram is amazing.

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

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We've all HEARD of the Fairlight. Ever actually seen one?

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I saw one on telly, and was smitten from that day on. And it was being demo'd by the wonderfully whacky 'Art of Noise' using the Page R sequencer. By gum AoN were good, and way before their time I'm sure.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/educators/whats_on_for_your_group/gallerie s/oramics.aspx

Woefully under-publicised, and hidden away on a balcony. We've all HEARD of the Fairlight. Ever actually seen one?

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In fairness to Daphne Oram, the main reason her machine remains unknown is cos the only music she ever made with it (with the possible except of "Four Aspects", which is nearly as beautiful as Eno's "Ascent (An Ending)") sounds like a parrot trapped inside a bin.
If it had ever done a tune as cool as the Dr Who Theme, she'd probably be more famous than Coca Cola.
It also has to be said that her machine hardly ever worked, not least cos she mysteriously dismissed the guy who was building it for her one morning, quite possibily after having indeed gone totally bonkers from all the electronic muslei, just as the BBC warned she would if she did it for more than 3 months at a time!

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~