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turbodave



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FREE PUSSY RIOT
      #1001505 - 03/08/12 06:21 AM
LINK Some states and religions deserve little or no credit due to their complete lack of a sense of perspective. Dave

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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1001512 - 03/08/12 07:03 AM
Dave, WTF you on about m8?

Keep the shroom intake down to a ki a day pal.

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turbodave



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1001520 - 03/08/12 07:49 AM
Have you read the link Zuke?

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feline1
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1001535 - 03/08/12 08:19 AM
As a Musicians Union member, I thought "thank goodness my Union will be lobbying like mad about this on my behalf" ... oh wait

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SecretSam
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1001624 - 03/08/12 01:25 PM
I thought this was some kind of edgy gift for those subscribing before the end of August. Imagine my disappointment.

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turbodave



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1001692 - 03/08/12 10:49 PM
No, it ain't that, it's a serious issue for those jailed for speaking their mind...it is no joke!! Dave

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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1001721 - 04/08/12 09:14 AM
Quote turbodave:

Have you read the link Zuke?




Ah, Link, yes. I should chill on the shrooms.

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turbodave



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1001722 - 04/08/12 09:22 AM
A BIT MORE INFO! ...for those interested in free speech! Dave

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Frisonic



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1001888 - 05/08/12 06:08 PM
There are a number of nationally sponsored cultural events being put on around the periphery of the Olympics. Just been to the Stochi Park event in London's Kensington Gardens, which is Russia's official promo for the 2014 Winter Olympics. A part of it comprises a Red Rock music festival. No Pussy Riot! I joked about it with some of the Russian staff. They smiled but weren't going to comment.

If you can overlook Putin's free speech problems and dig what Russians do with ballet and on ice skates, and fancy the slightly bizarre spectacle of ice ballet in a Capability Brown landscape in the middle of August, the 'Small Stories From A Big City' show is frankly outstanding. It will be on next weekend, if you're in town. Go for the £40 tickets (no advantage in the more expensive ones and its so undersold you get upgraded anyway). The cast comprises over 30 Olympic Gold skaters, plus some British dancers and musicians. Its charming, visually thrilling and the story assumes any world city. Its not a 'Russian' story. They even got a gay policeman into the script (which is a big deal as Russia is as homophobic as most Middle East and African countries). But what was conspicuous is that they didn't place any of their female characters in an empowered role. Russia has a long way to go with women's equality generally. And I did wonder this afternoon how much that has had to do with the situation the Pussy Riots have found themselves in.

But the ice ballet, whilst obviously designed to be family entertainment, is world class. Imagine the Kirov doing it on ice in a contemporary setting. Well, fairly contemporary. There were quite a few 'Guy's & Doll's' moments... If that could be your thing this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Top class Russian choreography.

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James PerrettModerator



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1001958 - 06/08/12 10:47 AM
My perspective on Russia is that, having grown up with communism, a large proportion of the population is scared of change. They're more comfortable with Putin's old style semi-dictatorship rather than full democracy. The Russians that I know who want to live in a democracy are emigrating rather than campaigning for change.

James.

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turbodave



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1001983 - 06/08/12 01:27 PM
Are they more comfortable James...or just scared of saying anything contrary to the government? Dave

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James PerrettModerator



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002010 - 06/08/12 04:11 PM
I don't think that they're scared of saying anything anti-government. It may not be a popular idea in the West, but while the huge changes when communism collapsed allowed some to make huge amounts of money, it also left many people less well off. It is this disparity that has led to the feeling that the old days were better in some ways. Of course, younger people who don't remember the communist era will think differently but Putin isn't exactly unpopular.

James.

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turbodave



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002025 - 06/08/12 06:18 PM
Understood..but my point is just that if this band is being treated like this, and Putin is that paranoid and power hungry, what can you believe? who's opinion is genuine? I think it is fairly safe to say that communism (of sorts) in Russia was not all bad...just as our apparent democracy and free market economy is not all good....I do however think that locking up musicians for making anti Government commentary is an indicator of a society on the brink of something...and I don't think it's going to be nice! Dave

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Frisonic



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002030 - 06/08/12 07:25 PM
Its called stage managed democracy!

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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002047 - 06/08/12 09:34 PM
Russia are not on the brink of anything; very little has changed apart from talking to the west. I've spent quite a bit of time in Russia and there are three things to note.

1. moscow is very different from the rest of Russia... It bears some resemblance to " the west" butv only superficially.
2. because Russian people mlook like "the west" we tend to assume that living there is like living in a cold and slightly tough Germany. It isn't. It has more in common with living in Iran or Belarus.. Two countries the government allies itself much more closely than anywhere in the west.
3. Corruption is rife in the police. It is a very dangerous place to exist outside of either the police or the mafia. It is not the UK and outside of Moscow is a place very suspicious of Jonny foreigner!!!

Those girls did a very very brave thing In a place that is most certainly not as open to " opinion " as anywhere in the west. The social cold war may have gone but much of the economic and allegiances are very much in place.


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turbodave



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002050 - 06/08/12 09:52 PM
Point made Narco but Putin controls from Moscow.....he could/should have intervened before now in this crazy set up.The fact that he is so slow to sort this out implies naivety or a thin end of a wedge we are yet to discover. Dave

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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002054 - 06/08/12 10:18 PM
i dont think Putin has any power. He is a complete puppet to the whims of the military and the criminal masses. He's made his show of " support" ; it may well go the way the girls would like but they'll be signing up to some endorsement of gov. Forget how this might go in the west, it won't go that way in Russia anymore than a leader in Iran bows down to western wishes. They'll do whatever they want but mighty just do a bit of a " show" to let us all see how nice things a over there. Nasty....



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turbodave



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002068 - 07/08/12 07:03 AM
Well my reading of this is that, just as there is a sea change in the "arab spring" countries, just as we have anti "free market" demonstrations here, there is something afoot in those countries that have 'contained" their citizens up to now. It is difficult also to see an historic precedent for this though as the currency for change (and it will come) is information and communication...PUSSY RIOT is the thin end of a wedge. It won't happen next week though!

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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002089 - 07/08/12 08:58 AM
I know what you mean. The Arab spring thing is a real mixed bag. Syria is descending into chaos, Saudi has made damn sure nothing changes there. As for Iran!!

I don't see Russia going down that road. much more interest internationally than back in Russia. I hope there is some positive resolve, but I don't see them suddenly letting the hundreds of other detainees out of prison that haven't received western press attention.


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Anonymous
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002112 - 07/08/12 10:22 AM
These girls aren't daft, they must have known what would happen.

I heard one of their husbands on the R4 and he is very articulate, well-read and with excellent English. These girls knew exactly what would happen.

So then you have to ask yourself why? Is is to promote sociopolitical change, or (more cynically) to promote Pussy Riot onto the world stage of art and media? A bit of both probably, but i sort of think that like our western artistic trouble makers before them - they will become very rich, become part of the establishment, become a parody of themselves and sink into mediocre hypocracy.

They have also accidentally allowed Mr Putin to show how much he's brought freedom and change. All he has to do is ensure leniancy. They have handed him a bigger and more powerful banner than the one they wave.

Lets not forget that Putin is very popular in Russia and he's breaking new ground on the world stage like no other leader before him.

Before we judge too harshly i would consider what might happen if a punk band busted into St Paul's during a key service and slagged off the Queen. I think they may well end up needing a barrister pretty soon afterwards too.


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Frisonic



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: ]
      #1002142 - 07/08/12 11:49 AM
... Punk band busting into St Paul's during a key service and slagging off the Queen? I expect you were thinking of the Sex Pistols record that used a pervious Jubilee to get their point across when you wrote that! Which was considered to be quite rude in the UK back in '77 and got banned. Although if I am not mistaken it subsequently got referenced in the Olympic opening ceremony some quarter of a century later! But the Sex Pistols didn't need a barrister to defend themselves against any kind of state sponsored retribution. Just their record company.

Putin and Medvedev are punk fans. Well Medvedev certainly is. He and his entourage attended a recent PIL concert in Kazakhstan. So there may well be something in what you say about how calculated or even pre meditated this trial is, from both sides. BTW I don't think Putin breaks more ground on the world stage than Gorbachev did (to me he was de facto the first Russian President, even if technically he wasn't). Not even close. Yeltsin broke more glasses...

Narcoman's observation about Russia, especially provincial Russia being under the kosh of corrupt politicians and gangsters is exactly right. Its a nation of approximately 145 million people, most of whom live outside Moscow and have little by way of opportunity. Because of the criminality nothing has come their way since Glasnost and they are frankly, by and large, of a parochial mindset. Perhaps better communication with the wider world can change that. But for now Joining a crime gang is the career of choice for many. There is a serious drug problem. Boys see 'no future' and shirk their responsibilities towards the girls, who are regarded as free labour. Consequently one parent families are common and abortions are rife. The drugs and the abortions are not a common thing between Russia and say Iran or Syria. They are more western. But I wouldn't disagree there is much about the provincial Russian mindset that is more akin to those places.

Russians like strong leaders. Which is why, despite his diminutive frame Putin remains popular. The KGB credentials, the tough guy image (all the shirtless hunting photos etc.). It all plays well to most Russians. Yet I think he was genuinely shaken at the extent of resistance to his third and likely fourth term as President (which shouldn't happen and couldn't happen in, for example the USA where two terms are the maximum). Pussy Riot are somewhere in the middle of those issues and how stage managed their situation is fair game for speculation! The truth is little has changed in the last 20 years for most Russians. Moscow has only become cosmopolitan because its most successful gangsters, all of whom were anointed by the state in the first place, have become rich enough to sanitize their reputations and most importantly to travel as very rich tourists. And if faith in the judicial system is any measure of civilization it is worth noticing that most of the legal disputes between the Oligarchs are settled in London! Come to mention it quite a lot of Oligarchs have settled in London, as they believe by doing so they have more chance of not upsetting the State, keeping their wealth and not ending up either in jail or poisoned (always a favoured method of execution amongst the brethren of the KGB).

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GlynB



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: ]
      #1002145 - 07/08/12 11:53 AM
Quote ow:



Before we judge too harshly i would consider what might happen if a punk band busted into St Paul's during a key service and slagged off the Queen. I think they may well end up needing a barrister pretty soon afterwards too.




Good point. Many people with previous 'clean' records received harsh sentences (jail) for minor theft for opportunistic theivery during last years riots here, way out of line with what they could normally expect. Sometimes politics gets in the mix with sentencing here in the UK too.

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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002196 - 07/08/12 03:39 PM
they wouldn't go to prison in the UK. Nor would they be charged with a criminal offence.


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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: GlynB]
      #1002197 - 07/08/12 03:40 PM
Quote GlynB:


Good point. Many people with previous 'clean' records received harsh sentences (jail) for minor theft for opportunistic theivery during last years riots here, way out of line with what they could normally expect.




Good!!! We're soft on this sort of thing normally!!


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Airfix



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: Zukan]
      #1002269 - 07/08/12 10:39 PM
Quote Zukan:

Dave, WTF you on about m8?

Keep the shroom intake down to a ki a day pal.



What's going on here?

Zutan he 's so bold. Magic musshies apart!
Pussy Riot - it's a great name - i love those girls in cages on tv who are daring to mess with Vlad.
A bit thick of Vlad to think '' i could be Czar of russia''!
What is he thinking?
I dont like him anymore. Putin stinks out loud!


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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002274 - 07/08/12 11:25 PM
Anymore? Was there ever a reason to like Putin? A puppet who allies himself with Iran and turns away from the democratic world? He (or rather his string pullers) would push Russia right back behind the iron curtain given a chance; something they seem to be moving towards!


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alexis



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: ]
      #1002275 - 07/08/12 11:30 PM
Quote ow:

These girls aren't daft, they must have known what would happen.
...

They have also accidentally allowed Mr Putin to show how much he's brought freedom and change. All he has to do is ensure leniancy....




THREE YEARS for Pussy Riot

It's time for Vlad (The Impaler) to come riding to the rescue!




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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002276 - 07/08/12 11:37 PM
think the opposite may happen if that article is anything to go by.....


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alexis



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: narcoman]
      #1002277 - 07/08/12 11:41 PM
Quote narcoman:

think the opposite may happen if that article is anything to go by.....





Tough choice for him though ... p*ss off the Orthodox Church by Freeing Pussy Riot, or p*ss off the rest of the planet by Locking Down Pussy Riot.

It's NOT RIGHT that a man should have to be forced to choose between Such Tough Choices .

"Tears for Vlad" (in 3/4)

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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002278 - 07/08/12 11:46 PM
Remains to be seen what happens - but Putin and the other autocrat puppet pullers dont give one jot what the west thinks! They seem far more interested in Bularus and Iran a the moment!

On another note - I read a few of the comments on that article; it's unfortunately amusing that many think that voting in Russia is like it is in the USA or Europe!!


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Frisonic



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: narcoman]
      #1002281 - 08/08/12 12:12 AM
Quote narcoman:

Anymore? Was there ever a reason to like Putin? A puppet who allies himself with Iran and turns away from the democratic world? He (or rather his string pullers) would push Russia right back behind the iron curtain given a chance; something they seem to be moving towards!




Then there is his economics degree, specializing in energy supply... He's made quite a career out of that, along with his training in the old KGB. Best friends: Iran, Syria & Venezuela. Not a member of: OPEC. Eastern Europe knows first hand about his ability to hold someone over a barrel with a pipe line. Putin knows he has few resources other than Russia's mineral wealth to play global brinksmanship with. So he's always overplaying his hand to save face. Helps him with the home audience to behave as he does towards Chechnya and Georgia... Playing the old tune to a disillusioned elite who want to hear it. And Russia lets him because they like to see him strong. Their clergy promote it. Pussy Riot denounced all of it... Bunch of girls. Can't have that!... Break a pussy on a wheel.

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Anonymous
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: narcoman]
      #1002294 - 08/08/12 07:20 AM
Quote narcoman:

they wouldn't go to prison in the UK. Nor would they be charged with a criminal offence.




These guys were, and they didn't actually commit a physical crime, they just talked about it - 4 years.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/17/facebook-cases-criticism-riot-sen tences


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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002299 - 08/08/12 08:02 AM
incitement to riot? I dont have much sympathy for them. What would people say if they had managed to get riots going in their locale?

You can't really compare fighting against political oppression for human rights with riots and looting. They were trying to replicate what happened in other parts of the country and that makes them a problem for society. 4 years is indeed tough, perhaps too tough, but they brought this in themselves as an affront to law abiding people.

The girls in Russia are fighting for freedom, a very different thing indeed and not inciting violence. One is pro society, the other very much against it.


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Anonymous
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: narcoman]
      #1002302 - 08/08/12 08:13 AM
That's true, but as you pointed out earlier it's a very different place, the vote there is not the same as the vote here etc... What it's really about is social norms and what is acceptable to the vast majority. For instance a normal day on a French beach will get you locked up in Iran, cutting off a foreskin will get you prosecuted in Germany.

tbh (and i was happy to see stiff sentences for the riots) i was more shocked by the four year facebook comment sentence than by the three year Pussy Riot sentence.


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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002308 - 08/08/12 08:28 AM
yes i agree. Not withstanding that these are two very different areas AND we can only view from our own experiences of being here (although I do have some experience of Russia - not a good place to be) - the FB sentencing was tough but not wrong (maybe 18months as nothing happened), but a prison term for these girls is morally wrong for me. I'm not entirely sure but looking at the statements by the prosecution they don't actually appear to have broken any Russian laws.


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James PerrettModerator



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: narcoman]
      #1002329 - 08/08/12 09:35 AM
Quote narcoman:

we can only view from our own experiences of being here (although I do have some experience of Russia - not a good place to be)




This is very important - Russia may look very similar to a European country so we expect their values to be similar but they're not. The Russian way of thinking seems very different to me and we simply can't ignore the millions of ordinary people who haven't done particularly well out of a more democratic system.

James.

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Frisonic



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: James Perrett]
      #1002363 - 08/08/12 12:57 PM
There have even been one or two extraordinary Russian people who in the end haven't done particularly well out of 'democracy'. Yesterday Reuters published an interview they had somehow managed to arrange with Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the former oil tycoon who was tried in the same Moscow courtroom as Pussy Riot. He is currently serving a twelve year prison sentence (he was formally the 16th richest person in the world - until he started developing political ambitions which were detrimental to the interests of Putin). He's calling for leniency too. In his interview he gives a fascinating account of how his trial (which was widely suspected of being a state managed kangaroo affair) was conducted. It describes how he, as the accused, was intimidated, including the subtle denial of food and clean air in the courtroom itself. Literally.

This article was published in yesterdays Financial Times . I hope the link can be opened without a subscription (I think you're OK with up to 4 articles a day as a non subscriber with the FT). Whatever you may think of Khodorkovsky he has a rare insight into what these girls are being put through.

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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: James Perrett]
      #1002381 - 08/08/12 02:40 PM
Quote James Perrett:

Quote narcoman:

we can only view from our own experiences of being here (although I do have some experience of Russia - not a good place to be)




This is very important - Russia may look very similar to a European country so we expect their values to be similar but they're not. The Russian way of thinking seems very different to me and we simply can't ignore the millions of ordinary people who haven't done particularly well out of a more democratic system.

James.




Absolutely. As a place to be (apart from moscow) it is not like anywhere in political Europe.


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shufflebeat



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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002642 - 09/08/12 07:22 PM
So it's not some kind of "chaos at the January sales" story after all.

Anyway

Putin is a tough nut - agreed.
Russia is a tough place - agreed.
There is a lot of organised crime - so it seems.

I'm a little disappointed that the British press seem to have skated over the (previously mentioned) sentences handed out for non crimes (in any sane world) connected to the recent UK riots. Where was the screaming "freedom" from the rooftops? Principles of justice? Separation between politics and the Justice System?

Criticism of others may be justified and vital but one must keep one's credentials well polished if you want to play that role.

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narcoman
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Re: FREE PUSSY RIOT new [Re: turbodave]
      #1002649 - 09/08/12 08:21 PM
from the riots?

I didn't find them grossly unjust although I don't know every detail so you'd have to enlighten me. Didn't have any sympathy for the one mentioned above.


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