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DarrenSw
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Joined: 27/01/03
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Loc: Sleaford, UK
Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely!
      #1021042 - 27/11/12 12:26 PM
I could be wrong, but don't think I am... Have a listen to new Robbie Williams song, Different - at about 3:20 he is blatantly out of tune.

How does this stuff get out? Is it supposed to be? I can't imagine it is.

Link to it on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFCWdrnZIIs&feature=player_embedded

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narcoman
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Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021045 - 27/11/12 12:37 PM
Why is that the engineers responsibility?

Out of tune - yup. He is on the "love was the answer".... But so is nearly all of the vocal for "boots were made for walking".

However - here is WHY he's out of tune. Proving he didn't use auto tune!! Terrible song though from a truly dreadful artist.




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Gary_W



Joined: 18/10/06
Posts: 464
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021046 - 27/11/12 12:38 PM
It sounds ropey to me too but I'm guessing as the artist concerned is happily miming away to it in the video he must think it sounds OK?


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Jack Ruston



Joined: 21/12/05
Posts: 4535
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021048 - 27/11/12 12:48 PM
That's a decision made between the artist and the producer. If they want to leave it au naturel that's to be applauded I suppose. It's not the engineers call.

J

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Jonesd90



Joined: 23/05/10
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Loc: United Kingdom, Manchester
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021074 - 27/11/12 02:10 PM
It does sound pretty bad to be honest, the tuning is quite audibly not right.

However, watching that video I don't care about the tuning, Robbie's poor attempt at conducting is what's making me cringe/laugh my balls off.


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_ Six _



Joined: 03/06/06
Posts: 1500
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021075 - 27/11/12 02:28 PM
I think he's a decent bloke that's done incredibly well for himself by taking risks. But I watched 10 mins of his recent O2 area dates (on Sky2) and was shocked at how bad he really is.

Good luck to him but it was Guy Chambers that made him who he is.


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 3269
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021076 - 27/11/12 02:41 PM
Contrast that with the recent article on Sinatra.

Robbie:

Can't do it
Doesn't know what it is
Doesn't care enough

We're all decent blokes, some of us work hard (I include myself in the first one but probably not the second). Doesn't mean we should be allowed to get away with shoddy work. Trouble is, with RW it's not really about music, is it?

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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
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Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021089 - 27/11/12 04:19 PM
Ha.

Almost as criminal as the asynchronous "conducting" shots in that video.

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DAGGILARR



Joined: 22/09/10
Posts: 681
Loc: Exeter, Devon.
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021093 - 27/11/12 04:41 PM
I do believe, like politicians we get the rock stars we deserve, and on the whole do rather better with the latter

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: narcoman]
      #1021158 - 28/11/12 01:49 AM
Quote narcoman:

Terrible song though from a truly dreadful artist.




I thought I was the only one that thought that! He's lucky he sang angels.


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stollypop



Joined: 15/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Hervey Bay. Australia.
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: ]
      #1021166 - 28/11/12 07:06 AM
He's starting to look like Mel Gibson too. Perhaps he's using Mels singing voice.

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Shambolic Charm



Joined: 13/07/05
Posts: 957
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021170 - 28/11/12 09:32 AM
Here we go again! Vocal Fascism . I blame X-factor for this modern obsession with pitch perfection. Have you heard the 4 tracks of the Beatles recordings kicking around the web? the engineer should have been sacked surely...and as for Velvet underground; The Stones etc. I'm not saying Robbie Williams carries their creative clout but I have a feeling that pitch obsession is deflecting attention from other areas of the creative process.

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BJG145



Joined: 06/08/05
Posts: 3438
Loc: Norwich UK
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021175 - 28/11/12 09:56 AM
That F# on "the"...? Sounds great. It's called "not destroying every vestige of interest and feeling by reaching automatically for simple chords and a tuner." Listen and learn.

C/F#/B...lovely. It's probably more the dissonance of the C on the bass and B on the high strings which you don't like.


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narcoman
active member


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Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: ]
      #1021181 - 28/11/12 10:31 AM
Quote Music Manic:

Quote narcoman:

Terrible song though from a truly dreadful artist.




I thought I was the only one that thought that! He's lucky he sang angels.




maybe!! But that is also a high overrated track. It lives with Wonderwall as unbelievably successful junk. ... funny old world.


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narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8518
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: Shambolic Charm]
      #1021182 - 28/11/12 10:32 AM
Quote Shambolic Charm:

Here we go again! Vocal Fascism . I blame X-factor for this modern obsession with pitch perfection. Have you heard the 4 tracks of the Beatles recordings kicking around the web? the engineer should have been sacked surely...and as for Velvet underground; The Stones etc. I'm not saying Robbie Williams carries their creative clout but I have a feeling that pitch obsession is deflecting attention from other areas of the creative process.




Not at all. There's imperfect loveliness and there's bad singing.

It's not about not liking. It's out of tune in a bad way. Not the wonderful blueing of Amy Winehouse or the rumbling under singing of Lou Reed or even the stretching of Tom Jones or even JK. It's just bang out of tune! Pulling notes out of tune worked fabulously for Estelle on "American Boy" but to pull that off you need the right tone and full control of the tune; it takes a great singer to be able to achieve that OR it needs something with natural vocal charisma like Reed or even the much loathed Ian Brown.



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Phil Reynolds



Joined: 11/06/06
Posts: 217
Loc: Douglas, Isle of Man.
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: narcoman]
      #1021190 - 28/11/12 11:21 AM
Quote narcoman:

...the wonderful blueing of Amy Winehouse ...




I'd always assumed that she just couldn't hit the right notes. Suppose one man's "blue" note is another man's plain wrong. I was never overly keen on her very liberal interpretation of "timing", either.

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"We knocked on the doors of Hell's darker chambers..." But no-one answered, so we went to the pub instead.


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Tartaruga



Joined: 04/09/10
Posts: 218
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021203 - 28/11/12 01:05 PM
‘Yes’,but somehow,Amy could really sing,RW…don’t know.
Apart from the matters pointed in previous posts,it sounds totally distorted and squashed in my system,or is it ‘YT’ quality?
I’ve heard lots of stuff in this site,and not everything sound as bad and ‘flattened' as this ‘song’...


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Beat Poet



Joined: 21/01/12
Posts: 174
Loc: Hertfordshire, UK
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021204 - 28/11/12 01:06 PM
RW was certainly a great showman in his day, but I've never been keen on his voice. I always thought he sung the swing stuff the best, that kind of music is his true love right?

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Tartaruga



Joined: 04/09/10
Posts: 218
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021205 - 28/11/12 01:07 PM
Sorry…
Apart from the ‘intro’,there’s no ‘dynamic' at all…VU’s are just ‘glued’ to a fixed value...


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: Shambolic Charm]
      #1021219 - 28/11/12 03:34 PM
Quote Shambolic Charm:

Here we go again! Vocal Fascism . I blame X-factor for this modern obsession with pitch perfection. Have you heard the 4 tracks of the Beatles recordings kicking around the web? the engineer should have been sacked surely...and as for Velvet underground; The Stones etc. I'm not saying Robbie Williams carries their creative clout but I have a feeling that pitch obsession is deflecting attention from other areas of the creative process.




Fascism? Funny choice of word. I would say high standards or excellence. If your main job is as a vocalist wouldn't it be your priority?

Elvis Presley, Pavarotti, Marvin Gaye etc all worked at it and some played instruments too. We all have off days, but for a recorded take, wo!


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 3269
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: Shambolic Charm]
      #1021224 - 28/11/12 04:27 PM
Quote Shambolic Charm:

Here we go again! Vocal Fascism . I blame X-factor for this modern obsession with pitch perfection.





I blame X Factor for many things but too high a bar for musical talent would be a new one. I don't suppose you're suggesting that but tuning hasn't really been a big issue for them on the past either.

--------------------
Onward and outward


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TheChorltonWheelie



Joined: 22/09/09
Posts: 1072
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: shufflebeat]
      #1021230 - 28/11/12 05:23 PM
Quote shufflebeat:

Quote Shambolic Charm:

Here we go again! Vocal Fascism . I blame X-factor for this modern obsession with pitch perfection.





I blame X Factor for many things but too high a bar for musical talent would be a new one. I don't suppose you're suggesting that but tuning hasn't really been a big issue for them on the past either.




It has nothing to do with X-Factor: go to any Paul Carrack, Paul Rodgers, Frankie Miller, Michael McDonald/Bolton gig, these guys have been pitch-perfect for 30+ years.

What X-Factor has promoted is the truly, truly dreadful melissimo.


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Shambolic Charm



Joined: 13/07/05
Posts: 957
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: shufflebeat]
      #1021232 - 28/11/12 05:27 PM
Quote shufflebeat:

Quote Shambolic Charm:

Here we go again! Vocal Fascism . I blame X-factor for this modern obsession with pitch perfection.





I blame X Factor for many things but too high a bar for musical talent would be a new one. I don't suppose you're suggesting that but tuning hasn't really been a big issue for them on the past either.




It's not talent we're discussing here it's tuning and I'm not suggesting their tuning is perfect but that the judges harp on about it all the time 'bit pitchy' is the fave term, even when it isn't 'pitchy'.Dylan,JAgger, Lennon et al would never have made it through to boot camp!

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www.myspace.com/shambolic-charm


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Shambolic Charm



Joined: 13/07/05
Posts: 957
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: TheChorltonWheelie]
      #1021237 - 28/11/12 05:36 PM
Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

Quote shufflebeat:

Quote Shambolic Charm:

Here we go again! Vocal Fascism . I blame X-factor for this modern obsession with pitch perfection.





I blame X Factor for many things but too high a bar for musical talent would be a new one. I don't suppose you're suggesting that but tuning hasn't really been a big issue for them on the past either.




It has nothing to do with X-Factor: go to any Paul Carrack, Paul Rodgers, Frankie Miller, Michael McDonald/Bolton gig, these guys have been pitch-perfect for 30+ years.




Yes but Dylan,Jagger,McCartney,Lydon, Bob Marley and Lou Reed,are all much much bigger and they ain't. My point is not that X-Factor is producing pitch perfect gods but that the Judges go on about pitch all the time. Now I hear kids at concert going "oooh that's a bit pitchy - a bit of training needed there" and it's bollocks, this is not classical music this music has it's roots in some genres where they didn't even know how to tune a guitar.

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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 3269
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: Shambolic Charm]
      #1021256 - 28/11/12 07:14 PM
Quote Shambolic Charm:


...go on about pitch all the time. Now I hear kids at concert going "oooh that's a bit pitchy - a bit of training needed there" and it's bollocks, this is not classical music this music has it's roots in some genres where they didn't even know how to tune a guitar.




I take your point and it's obviously difficult to discuss different subjective truths in any kind of sensible way. For me, if you know what you're trying to do and you do it - that counts as pitch perfect.

I'll draw a discreet veil over your choice of singers while there's some consensus.

It's chewing gum - not fine curry or French cuisine. Personally, I find it bad for the digestion.

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Onward and outward


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Shambolic Charm



Joined: 13/07/05
Posts: 957
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021261 - 28/11/12 07:38 PM
Dylan,Jagger,McCartney,Lydon, Bob Marley and Lou Reed chewing gum, surely not sir? I would have put Michael Bolton more in that category but as you say musical taste is subjective. To me the Artists I have mentioned are pioneers that have saved us from repeating the same formulas over and over. George Martin feels that the more progressive end of Popular music has moved things on from a rather stale classical genre, which is why he, as a classically trained musician moved more into working in that field.

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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 3269
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: shufflebeat]
      #1021276 - 28/11/12 08:43 PM
Muchos apologos. That should have read...

Quote Shambolic Charm:


...go on about pitch all the time. Now I hear kids at concert going "oooh that's a bit pitchy - a bit of training needed there" and it's bollocks, this is not classical music this music has it's roots in some genres where they didn't even know how to tune a guitar.




It's chewing gum - not fine curry or French cuisine. Personally, I find it bad for the digestion.

I take your point and it's obviously difficult to discuss different subjective truths in any kind of sensible way. For me, if you know what you're trying to do and you do it - that counts as pitch perfect.

I'll draw a discreet veil over your choice of singers while there's some consensus.

--------------------
Onward and outward


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ConcertinaChap



Joined: 20/07/05
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Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021287 - 28/11/12 10:13 PM
Didn't make it to the 3'20" point, such a dull song. Dull, dull, dull, boring and desperately DULL.

CC

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ken long



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Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021291 - 28/11/12 10:24 PM
this music is irrelevant. stop giving this man exposure. good or bad.

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I'm All Ears.


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Anonymous
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Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: ConcertinaChap]
      #1021318 - 29/11/12 05:45 AM
Quote ConcertinaChap:

Didn't make it to the 3'20" point, such a dull song. Dull, dull, dull, boring and desperately DULL.

CC




So did you like it, yes or no?


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
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Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021436 - 29/11/12 07:23 PM
On an almost related point, I heard Israel by Siouxsie and the Banshees for the first time in a long time today. Now there's a girl who can miss just about every note in a song except for key phrases that hit the note perfectly and it sounds exactly right (to my ear). I couldn't explain the mechanics of it but it feels just right.

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: shufflebeat]
      #1021441 - 29/11/12 08:41 PM
Quote shufflebeat:

On an almost related point, I heard Israel by Siouxsie and the Banshees for the first time in a long time today. Now there's a girl who can miss just about every note in a song except for key phrases that hit the note perfectly and it sounds exactly right (to my ear). I couldn't explain the mechanics of it but it feels just right.




Punk wasn't very musical, it was more about attitude. Hendrix's guitar use to be out of tune sometimes and it did spoil his live performances but on track he produced some the most creative, beautiful electric guitar music put down. Did his voice fit his music? Yes I think it did, just like Mark Knopfler's. Again, if an artist is regarded as a vocalist his first priority would be pitch because the music they are performing to requires that. If opera music was out of pitch it would be magnified tenfold because it is all about vocal performance, not image.


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 3269
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Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: ]
      #1021460 - 29/11/12 10:32 PM
Quote Music Manic:


Punk wasn't very musical, it was more about attitude.




No, it's not that. I can't stand out of control singing. What she does (well, did. It's not quite the same now) is stressing the note, not just missing it. I'm not an Amy Winehouse fan but she did something similar.

It's meta-musical (is that a thing?).

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DAGGILARR



Joined: 22/09/10
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Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: shufflebeat]
      #1021510 - 30/11/12 09:51 AM
Quote Music Manic:


stressing the note, not just missing it.




Now there is a description

Isn't there a legitimate space either side of a note that works ? isn't there 'interpretative' width to a note ? that artists can use well, that can become a part of their vocal palette but sounds dreadful when it goes wrong?....... moving on

X Factor is basically an obscene £ generating machine, it legitimised abuse and yet at times I have found myself drawn into the mesmeric world of it, at times wincing at how 'out of tune' a singer is only to be shocked when praise is heaped upon the performance. I think the opposite is true of X Factor rather than promote a perfectionist attitude toward performance it promotes a perverse one. Then there is/was The Voice, this is where I noticed the term "pitchy' being used..... yeah read 'bitchy'.

There is something deeply unhealthy about these shows, to paraphrase my earlier post in this, we get the shows we deserve. oh and for the record I quite like RW though that song is crap.

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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
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Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DAGGILARR]
      #1021522 - 30/11/12 10:45 AM
Quote DAGGILARR:

Isn't there a legitimate space either side of a note that works ? isn't there 'interpretative' width to a note ? that artists can use well, that can become a part of their vocal palette but sounds dreadful when it goes wrong?




That's what I'm getting at. The 'stressing' (or maybe distressing) of the note +means something, though. Like lots of great musicians it can be a subconscious thing rather that the result of careful consideration and analysis.

I could forgive RW even the odd unintentional bum note if his voice wasn't totally devoid of any character but I've had friends come and do their party piece a my gigs and they've shown more understanding, better technique and more general engagement with a song than any Yuk Factor wannabe, including RW. I struggle to find any reason to praise him for doing badly on my TV what taxi drivers and shop assistants do better up and down the country every Friday night.

I have absolutely nothing against RW or his ilk but they're not special.

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DAGGILARR



Joined: 22/09/10
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Loc: Exeter, Devon.
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: shufflebeat]
      #1021660 - 30/11/12 09:59 PM
I agree with this often it is just there but some develop it, and of course this applies to any instrument that has the capacity for variable pitch in this way.

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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 3269
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DAGGILARR]
      #1021709 - 01/12/12 11:12 AM
Quote DAGGILARR:

...of course this applies to any instrument that has the capacity for variable pitch in this way.




+1, and is taken for granted among musicians who know what they're doing, even if they don't know the Italian word for it.

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starman9



Joined: 12/11/06
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Loc: London, UK
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1021839 - 02/12/12 12:14 AM
Oooh that note at 3:20 is bad.... sounds like it was corrected to some extent... but to the wrong note! Would need to be a semitone higher to fit with the chord...


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
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Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1022457 - 05/12/12 11:42 AM
Regarding the recent Royal Command Performance,

I'm no royalist but that was cruel.

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Onward and outward


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Stratt



Joined: 12/03/05
Posts: 70
Loc: Northampton, UK
Re: Robbie - engineer should be fired, surely! new [Re: DarrenSw]
      #1022465 - 05/12/12 12:12 PM
One of the best at stressing notes is Stevie Wonder. He flattens and sharpens all the way through Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer. On purpose! Flippin' genius. RW, on the other hand, does it by mistake. Bloody awful!

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ICT Manager at Royal & Derngate, Northampton


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