lovesexy
Joined: 09/03/07
Posts: 232
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To clip or not to clip?
#1022731 - 06/12/12 01:04 PM
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I have a track that has a nice laid back groove but the snare and claps chop through the
mix and cause it to clip slightly in cubase. However, it's kind of what makes the tune
work and when I put a limiter on the snare and claps friends have said that it just
doesn't groove the same.
The mix is fine and I'd like to master this baby. Is a bit
of clipping generally considered ok before mastering (in wavelab). I've tried using a
limiter on the whole mix but it just doesn't have the punch that i want. The clip isn't
audible by the way.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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Richie Royale
Joined: 12/09/06
Posts: 3456
Loc: Bristol, England.
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: lovesexy]
#1022738 - 06/12/12 01:22 PM
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Cubase is forgiving when it comes to overs, but have you tried to bring all the faders
down a few dB to keep the output level down below zero? Or grouping and then reducing the
level of the group inputs.
You'll need some headroom for mastering as well.
-------------------- http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale
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lovesexy
Joined: 09/03/07
Posts: 232
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: lovesexy]
#1022749 - 06/12/12 01:42 PM
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Thanks for the reply. Should I just pull the main volume down before bouncing? If so what
kind of headroom do I need?
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Richie Royale
Joined: 12/09/06
Posts: 3456
Loc: Bristol, England.
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: lovesexy]
#1022760 - 06/12/12 01:58 PM
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You can pull down the main fader, but ideally you should be aiming at not maxing out the
main fader when preparing the mixdown.
-------------------- http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale
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lovesexy
Joined: 09/03/07
Posts: 232
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: lovesexy]
#1022796 - 06/12/12 03:58 PM
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What I dont get is that Cubase says I have a maximum of -2db when I bounce but when I
place the wav in Wavelab it says I have -9db! What's that all about?
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Hugh Robjohns
SOS Technical Editor
Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 18540
Loc: Worcestershire
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: lovesexy]
#1022799 - 06/12/12 04:20 PM
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Different metering ballistics.
Hugh
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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound
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oggyb
Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1448
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: lovesexy]
#1022833 - 06/12/12 07:34 PM
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I have found over the years that Cubase *appears* to lower the volume of mixdowns if the
output is over zero on the master fader, seemingly just to keep things tidy when converted
to fixed-point maths. The same happens with track bounces. I have noticed a 3dB
reduction in bounces/mixdowns many times, and it has nothing to do with metering
ballistics.
-------------------- Composer;
www.ogonline.org
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SafeandSound Masteri...
Joined: 23/03/08
Posts: 857
Loc: London UK
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: lovesexy]
#1023079 - 07/12/12 07:21 PM
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I recommend not clipping your master output. It is not that clipping is good and that it
by default sounds better than a limiter popped on the end. (Though it potentially can do
but thats another kettle of fish) Moreso that unlimited can sound better than limited.
This time, as advised pull the master out down by the required dB to give yourself a
little headroom.
And for future times consider this way of working :
http://www.masteringmastering.co.uk/gainstructure.html
Are the Wavelab meters showing RMS values? Although that would be pretty hot for a
completely unlimited mix and would be fairly heavily compressed. Is the fader at zero?
cheers
SafeandSound Mastering
Mastering services online
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Santarosa
Joined: 18/11/09
Posts: 135
Loc: Brazil
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: lovesexy]
#1023121 - 08/12/12 02:12 AM
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I was doing some experience in "mastering" (by that I mean pseudo mastering) some songs I
mixed and I got better results, in exact the same regards of grooving, by clipping a bit
in the plugin chain to get louder than using a lot of limiting. That means I was getting a
punchier and fatter sound comparing too versions of the same song at same loudness with
the one I used a bit of clipping in transient peaks and less limiting.
I hope
my english words could be understandable.
That anyway was just a learning
experience and I used only plugins in a home studio environment. I wasn't using cubase
though and I know the way different softwares responds to clipping can lead to different
results. I used Reaper. Anyway, by your reports it seems we had the same feeling about
clipping and limiting.
Cheers,
Chico
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Hugh Robjohns
SOS Technical Editor
Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 18540
Loc: Worcestershire
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: Santarosa]
#1023138 - 08/12/12 09:20 AM
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Digital clipping creates anharmonic distortion, which means that it generates
non-musically related distortion components, most of which are at frequencies below
the fundamentals. This is a completely unnatural kind of sound effect, and a lot of people
find it quite unpleasant... but it will certainly make a mix sound 'fatter' and louder.
Hugh
--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound
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Santarosa
Joined: 18/11/09
Posts: 135
Loc: Brazil
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: Hugh Robjohns]
#1023174 - 08/12/12 02:36 PM
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Quote Hugh Robjohns:
Digital
clipping creates anharmonic distortion, which means that it generates non-musically
related distortion components, most of which are at frequencies below the
fundamentals. This is a completely unnatural kind of sound effect, and a lot of people
find it quite unpleasant... but it will certainly make a mix sound 'fatter' and louder.
Hugh
I forgot
to say that in my above mentioned experience I also compared the pseudo master versions
with the mix itself (same "loudness volume" for all - sorry my non technical terms). The
mix was always cleaner, punchier and groovier.
Cheers
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Hugh Robjohns
SOS Technical Editor
Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 18540
Loc: Worcestershire
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: Santarosa]
#1023178 - 08/12/12 03:24 PM
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Quote Santarosa:
The mix was
always cleaner, punchier and groovier.
Digital clipping can not possibly result in a 'cleaner' mix -- it
will always add non-musical distortions -- but then I'm assuming 'cleaner' means less
distorted. Perhaps you have a different meaning for the term. I'm not entirely sure I
understand your subjective terms 'punchier' and 'groovier'.. but if you like the results
then that's fine.
I was simply trying to offer some technical background to
what the process is doing at a technical level.
H
--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound
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Santarosa
Joined: 18/11/09
Posts: 135
Loc: Brazil
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: Hugh Robjohns]
#1023389 - 10/12/12 03:18 AM
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Hello Hugh,
I was actually agreeing with you. When I said the mix was cleaner
it was because I wasn't clipping it neither using limiting. I used digital clipping and
limiting only in my pseudo master experience. Then I compared the three versions at the
same loudness: mix versus master with clipping and just a bit of limiting versus master
with limiting only.
When I say punchier my subjective feeling is that the low
frequencies are tighter and transients seems to hit you in a more pleasant, stronger and
cleaner way. By groovier I understand something like the bit feels more free (difficult to
explain, even more cause I am not english).
I hope that was better to
understand.
Cheers,
Chico
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SafeandSound Masteri...
Joined: 23/03/08
Posts: 857
Loc: London UK
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Re: To clip or not to clip?
[Re: lovesexy]
#1023470 - 10/12/12 02:19 PM
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Definitely worth seeing how this clipping holds up in your chosen lossy audio codec, could
be some unforeseen surprises there. Not saying clipping does not occur from time to time
if you have been boxed into a corner perceived volume wise by a client who is adamant. But
it is not done in a light hearted way without thought for the consequences. I personally
see it as a last resort for those who have already made fidelity a second priority.
SafeandSound Mastering
cd mastering studio
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Mixedup
active member
Joined: 03/09/03
Posts: 4265
Loc: Cambridge, UK
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Reading this SOS article
might help the OP. Basically, you have to work at reducing the peak level of the
snare/kick without screwing up the impression given by the attack portion of the sound.
I'll often clip the snare deliberately, but using my converters
(sequencer>D/A>preamp applying boost>A/D), not in software. My guess is that it's the
analogue stages before the actual converters overloading that makes this work *in some
mixes*.
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