"Compression is for kids... it's
a crutch " - Bruce Swedien.

What are your thoughts and views

compression is a tool and is there to be used when you need it.

its easy to overdo it though... and not everything needs compression.

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www.Lozjackson.com

Quote 10ndaYii:

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"Compression is for kids... it's
a crutch " - Bruce Swedien.

What are your thoughts and views

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Bit like saying "bass drums a for kids"...... Stupid.

I'd like to see Bruce make a side chained devil monster EDM record without compression.

The quote happens just after 16:15:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esmo1BxNkjI

Swedien is explaining how much he values transients and it is his feeling that 'compression is for kids...how I feel about transient response'. I think he presents that as his opinion.
He doesn't like compression.

Compression doesn't kill transients. BAD compression kills transients. you can use compression to build transients. I use two blue face 1176 for exactly that. Bruce is just saying something to be controversial and get a response. Pointless and something he seems to do every interview!!! Made some great records, but man he doesn't half spin a few yarns in interviews!

His book was an interesting read, but wasn't as detailed as I would have liked.

Doesn't recording to tape have a mild compression effect though? So a large portion of his output would have been "compressed" just by being recorded onto tape.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Exactly!!! I get his point, using any tool as a crutch is silly. However it's not the opposite either! Always depends on what you're trying to do......

Quote 10ndaYii:

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What are your thoughts and views

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I would normally not use compression when recording acoustic instruments and wanting them to sound as natural as possible.

BUT sometimes it sounds more natural when adding a bit of compression. I mean, when listening to the recording, it can sound too dynamic compared to what you hear in real. It can be because of microphone placement, particular room, etc. I guess I would never use compression if the room, the instruments and the microphones were always perfect.

Also, sometimes, especially in the context of electronic music, you may use compression simply as an effect, like you add a filter or a granulator.

Like the other said, compression is a tool, so it's not good or bad in itself, it's all about how you use it, and in my opinion there are no fixed rules. Everything is possible provided that you can justify or explain it.

Quote Richie Royale:

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Doesn't recording to tape have a mild compression effect though? So a large portion of his output would have been "compressed" just by being recorded onto tape.

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I don't know for tapes, but my old mixing desk does add some mild compression or limiting when pushed into the red (the outputs, not the preamplifiers).

Some microphones (especially vintage ones) also add compression or limiting (not because of a built-in electronic compression circuit).

From Ted Fletcher's website regarding recording to analogue tape and tape compression

"
I have to say that a recording medium should be as technically perfect as possible, with no additions or subtractions: It should be a perfect 'time machine' that can replay what is being monitored in the control room at any time.

Analogue tape is not that!

The best analogue recorders will produce a result that is technically excellent over the specified dynamic range. What the books don't warn you about is the massive overload margin required to reproduce transients in the signal, and the effect this has on the recording.

Even with optimised AC biasing, what can be pulled off the tape after a recording, is limited. Recording levels up to nominally 'zero', the recorder will reproduce the bulk of the information perfectly provided there are no transients, but music signal rarely have no transients! When a transient (or 'spike') comes along, the record head tries to magnetise the tape to a greater extent than it is capable of. The effect is that the signal is momentarily compressed, and this shows as 2nd order distortion, varying with the transient content of the music.

This is not necessarily a bad thing! This is precisely the sound that complements a lot of music, and it's the very reason that engineers like using analogue tape in spite of the relative inconvenience and high cost.

Looking at analogue is slightly greater detail.... The greatest ever analogue machine was probably the Studer 16 track using 2" tape.
"

Edited by vinyl_junkie (11/05/12 07:41 PM)

Every now and then some studio big wig will announce that some ubiquitous method / tool or technique is for 'wimps' or 'kids.'

Generally after everybody is using to to make things easier. Multitrack tape and overdubbing - for bands that cant play. Studio F.X - covering up for poor parts. Pro Tools, plug ins, drum replacement - using a pick on a bass!

Obviously no one really puts the money where their mouth is and ditches these things - but they will make everyone stop and think - 'yeah - why do we always do it this way?'

As many have pointer out, compression is not technically necessary any more, but its sound was so integral to the creation of what are considered the best records ever made, its a hard habit to break. Maybe everyone is a bit to obssesed with the fatest, most loudest, crunchiest, gooiest sound these days, and compressors are certainly the number one 'ohh ahh' bits of kit right now. They seam to offer the answer to everything.

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I recorded 3 /15 year old kids for 3 hours to a click track in a room the size of a large cupboard the other day...thanks compression. Dave

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My head hurts!

Bit like saying "bass drums a for kids"...... Stupid.

I'd like to see Bruce make a side chained devil monster EDM record without compression.

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You don't necessarily need a compressor to do that - Automation

Shurely that's still compression - only made (manually?) with automation instead of (automatically) with a compressor.

Quote 10ndaYii:

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Bit like saying "bass drums a for kids"...... Stupid.

I'd like to see Bruce make a side chained devil monster EDM record without compression.

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You don't necessarily need a compressor to do that - Automation

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Not true. You can't do it without compression. Compression is one to one dB level adjustment. Compression is seldom 1:1 and introduces harmonic distortion - crucial to the sounds of acts like Justice or Daft Punk.

Thought you were "18 and learning"....? ... or do you have some eggs for my grandma?

Isn't the whole point of sidechaining is to let the kick cut through the mix when the level of the bass is reduced , creating that pumping effect I mean you can just ride the faders although that'd be laborous

No - that's ONE of the uses. Even then - different compressors induce different harmonic content AND you would not be able to ride the faders the way a compressor works.... There are a lot of things people think you can do alternate ways .... then theres the way that oodles of mixes over a long time teach. Side chaining never works out as being just riding levels even though that's what it would appear to be doing.

Quote 10ndaYii:

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"Compression is for kids... it's
a crutch " - Bruce Swedien.

What are your thoughts and views

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He's just trolling that's all. Compression in the right hands sounds amazing and anyone who doesn't agree is not worth discussing,

Quote 10ndaYii:

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"Compression is for kids... it's
a crutch " - Bruce Swedien.

What are your thoughts and views

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I agree.

The problem is, Mr. Swedien worked with just the best in the World. The drummer was able to keep a very level and constant kick, the singer knew how to work the mic without needing a 'Popper Stopper' and everybody played in tune.

Today, we are faced with numpties that can't keep time, can't pitch their voices and got where they are because it's Tuesday. Quite honestly, when I first opened my first studio, (16-track and an A&H desk in the back room of my music shop) I often worked with better musicians than I do today, with some monster desk and a whole range of DAWs and effects to play with.

The only compressor I had beack then, was a DIY job. Today I have one on every channel of the desk and then all the toys inside the computer and it still is not enough to create the sound of an exciting drummer, who manages to play the kit without getting a nose bleed.

To be fair, Swedien's mixes do get compression in mastering!

... yeah but it's more than that. Compression is an EFFECT> Without it - no big Bonham sound, no Police Kick drum impact, No Ringo splat snare sound etc etc etc. Compression is only a crutch for those who don't know what they're doing.... like reverb, like EQ..... So No. Swedien would be wrong if he said that using it at ALL is a crutch (which he didn't say - he's talking about using it for merely controlling levels.... )

Utter boll@*ks. Proper compression sounds great. You mean to tell me Michael Jackson's vocal had NO Compression? Doubt it

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Gear list: If you can't find it, grind it

Quote MadManDan:

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You mean to tell me Michael Jackson's vocal had NO Compression? Doubt it

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The interviewer presses Swedien on that and Swedien admits he gave it a 'squirt' (of compression).

Quote Neil C:

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Quote MadManDan:

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You mean to tell me Michael Jackson's vocal had NO Compression? Doubt it

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The interviewer presses Swedien on that and Swedien admits he gave it a 'squirt' (of compression).

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and smashed it to tape.... I've worked on some of those tracks for various syncs.... multis bely serious tape compression.

Quote narcoman:

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Quote Neil C:

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Quote MadManDan:

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You mean to tell me Michael Jackson's vocal had NO Compression? Doubt it

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The interviewer presses Swedien on that and Swedien admits he gave it a 'squirt' (of compression).

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and smashed it to tape.... I've worked on some of those tracks for various syncs.... multis bely serious tape compression.

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maybe the "for kids" comment referred to MJ's Peter Pan complex

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Gear list: If you can't find it, grind it

Edited by MadManDan (13/05/12 11:59 PM)

Is all of you saying that you can't make a record without compression

Quote 10ndaYii:

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Is all of you saying that you can't make a record without compression

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No. Nobody is saying that although I can't think of a single pop/rock/Rnb etc record from the last 40 years that DIDN'T use compression. I mix more and more score for a living these days - often compression is not used at all in this arena - but for Pop etc... unlikely.

Quote 10ndaYii:

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Is all of you saying that you can't make a record without compression

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Depends on the type of music and its intended audience.

It is perfectly possible to make very enjoyable recordings without any compression -- particularly for acoustic and classical genres intended to be auditioned on high quality wide-dynamic range replay systems.

But for any kind of pop, rock, or more modern musical idioms audio compression is a fundamental part of the sound to varying degrees.

I'm 100% certain that Mr Swedien uses compression where and when appropriate, and I'd take an awful lot of what he says in his book and articles with a large pinch of salt. When I read his book it struck me that some of what he claimed was technically inaccurate and erroneous, and some was obviously deliberately misleading. I'll leave it to others to judge the whats and whys.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Maybe he's just saying that compression is vastly over(ab)used these days by people who don't understand it thinking it's a panacea for polishing turds. In which case, like Lord Redmond of Bladdershire, I feel I'd have to agree.

When I ran a studio 150 years ago, I had just one compressor which I applied judiciously to troublesome sources. These days, people routinely strap a compressor across every channel AND then the master outs in the undying quest to add 'punch' to a track. And then they add more compression in the 'mastering' process (I know people who add compression to their final stereo mixes simply because they think they have to, not because it 'needs' it).

Much as there are many ways to skin a cat (I've not tried all of them yet), there are other (and better) ways to make a track 'punchy'.

I think it might be that to which the venerable Mr Swedien is referring.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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I think it might be that to which the venerable Mr Swedien is referring.

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I think you may well be right.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Are we back to the loudness wars yet?...and are we doin' Stonehenge again? ..please help! Dave

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My head hurts!

Yeah ¡