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Huge Longjohns
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What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time?
      #955893 - 28/11/11 10:48 AM
I know they call a crotchet a quarter note when it's a straight 4 4--and a minim becomes a half note etc. But what do they call a crotchet in a waltz or a march, for example? In a waltz would a crotchet become a third note? In a 2/4 would a crotchet become a half note (but not a minim, obviously)????

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Exalted Wombat



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #955901 - 28/11/11 11:35 AM
Quote Huge Longjohns:

I know they call a crotchet a quarter note when it's a straight 4 4--and a minim becomes a half note etc. But what do they call a crotchet in a waltz or a march, for example? In a waltz would a crotchet become a third note? In a 2/4 would a crotchet become a half note (but not a minim, obviously)????




No, it's still a quarter note! Semibreve = Whole note, Minim - Half note... Nothing to do with bar length.

Want to get into what a Semi-breve was half of? :-)


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chris...
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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #955919 - 28/11/11 01:06 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Nothing to do with bar length.



Yes and no. Lengths are measured against a nominal 4/4 time sig. A crotchet is a quarter of a bar of 4/4

( irrespective of what time your in right now )


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Huge Longjohns
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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #955980 - 28/11/11 05:37 PM
OK, so you're saying Americans use quarter note as a total synonym for crotchet, half note as a total synonym for a minim, and so on, regardless of the time sig?

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Exalted Wombat



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #956061 - 29/11/11 03:04 AM
Quote Huge Longjohns:

OK, so you're saying Americans use quarter note as a total synonym for crotchet, half note as a total synonym for a minim, and so on, regardless of the time sig?




Yes. The fact that the most common time signature fits one whole note into each bar MAY be a reason for the name. But a quarter-note is a crotchet, in any meter.


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Huge Longjohns
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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #956090 - 29/11/11 09:24 AM
OK, cheers.

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Oli_F



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #957735 - 07/12/11 05:26 PM
What do they call a hemi-demi-semiquaver?

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The Korff
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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Oli_F]
      #957736 - 07/12/11 05:29 PM
A 64th note, I guess?


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Exalted Wombat



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Oli_F]
      #957747 - 07/12/11 06:02 PM
Quote Oli_F:

What do they call a hemi-demi-semiquaver?




Fast.

In my orchestral trombone-playing days I remember a score by (I think) Messiaen where, for reasons more connected with theories of composition than with readability, there were lots of notes with lots of tails to be played at a very slow tempo. We did what we thought was wanted, and the conductor didn't throw anything at us - so I guess it was OK :-)


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Oli_F



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: The Korff]
      #957757 - 07/12/11 06:39 PM
Quote Korff:

A 64th note, I guess?




How prosaic! That's why our system is so much nicer!

- I liked the Messaien ancedote, btw!

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permanent_daylight



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #976154 - 16/03/12 01:10 PM
a quarter note hence the four in 3/4. 3/4 is literally three quarters.


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dubbmann
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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #976293 - 16/03/12 07:12 PM
hmm, i wonder if the OP was thinking of compound time? the quarter note gets a dot (.) in compound times. i think it's still called a quarter note, though...

d

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tacitus



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #976710 - 19/03/12 09:45 AM
It's a dotted quarter, as far as I know. I've had US trained players in various bands but I've never sat down with one and gone through all the possible names for all the note lengths.


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dubbmann
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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: tacitus]
      #976812 - 19/03/12 04:02 PM
Quote tacitus:

It's a dotted quarter, as far as I know. I've had US trained players in various bands but I've never sat down with one and gone through all the possible names for all the note lengths.


yes, you're right. at least, that's what i call them, and i'm american ;-)

d

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seablade



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: dubbmann]
      #977108 - 20/03/12 06:23 PM
Quote dubbmann:

hmm, i wonder if the OP was thinking of compound time? the quarter note gets a dot (.) in compound times. i think it's still called a quarter note, though...

d




Not really. The quarter note is still a quarter note. A dotted quarter would be equivalent to 1.5x the length of a quarter note(So equivalent to 3 eighth/quaver notes).

You are correct in that in compound time the measure is technically broken up differently, in other words in 6/8 time the measure is broken into two dotted quarters, but the dot has little to do with it being in compound time or not, but rather is an indication that the note is 1.5x the length of the original 'glyph'.

So yes in compound time the beat is typically a dotted note, but just because a note has a dot doesn't mean it is compound time, and a non-dotted note can exist in a compound time.

Seablade


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A. AuCr



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #977395 - 22/03/12 02:38 AM
Hello. Canadian here... We pass for Yanks when we want/need to.

So, nomenclature: Despite being in Royal Conservatory of Toronto piano programme for 11 grades, and doing the requisite rudiments and harmony classes, I don't recall coming across quaver, semiquaver, etc. as part of any of the coursework. The bottom figure of the time signature was taken to indicate the fractional note that represents a beat. So in 3/4 time, 3 beats per bar, and we take the 4 to mean a quarter note represents 1 beat.

6/8 time, 6 beats per bar, an 8th note gets one beat. (Yes, we know, play it like two triplets.)

5/4 time, 5 quarters per measure
9/8 time, Neil Peart was involved...

I'd go batty trying to keep semi-demi-hemi-nano-femto-quaver straight, is that nomenclature commonly used in the UK?


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seablade



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: A. AuCr]
      #977396 - 22/03/12 02:58 AM
Quote A. AuCr:


6/8 time, 6 beats per bar, an 8th note gets one beat. (Yes, we know, play it like two triplets.)





Eh this is the incorrect part. It really is two beats per measure, and each beat is represented by a dotted quarter. This makes a difference in your beaming in composition for example, as well as saying to play it like triplets gives a bad connotation since triplets are three notes fit into the time space of two, which is not what is happening in compound time.

Seablade


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A. AuCr



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: seablade]
      #977399 - 22/03/12 03:14 AM
You're right, of course. To be honest... I haven't cracked a theory book in over 20 years.

I just noticed the date on the OP. Forum acting up again, kicking old posts to the front page?


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A. AuCr



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #977504 - 22/03/12 02:58 PM
Actually, wrong or not I sill count 6 for 6/8 time.

For the two-counters, how do you count 7/8? Two and a third beats, or break it to a 3/8 and a 4/8?


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seablade



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: A. AuCr]
      #977593 - 22/03/12 10:00 PM
Quote A. AuCr:

Actually, wrong or not I sill count 6 for 6/8 time.

For the two-counters, how do you count 7/8? Two and a third beats, or break it to a 3/8 and a 4/8?




Honestly I don't;)

I know enough theory to be able to follow a score while mixing it if needed, but don't do much playing outside of what most would consider the 'standard' times really.

My understanding of the 7/8 is that I would count it as a dotted quarter and quarter beat. Makes a difference for my posture/phrasing really, but I never really got far enough with playing to say that for certain.

Seablade


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feline1
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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #977682 - 23/03/12 10:20 AM
All this wrongness reminds me of my other bug bear:

the way MIDI sequencers and DAWs do their tempos in compound time signatures: when you write the metronome mark on sheet music for a compound time signature, you're usually stating the number of dotted notes (i.e. beats) per minute. But in most software, it still shows (undotted) crotchets per minute in the tempo setting. ARGGGH

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tacitus



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: Huge Longjohns]
      #977742 - 23/03/12 01:26 PM
7/8 (and 5/8, 11/8 and even 8/8) will usually fall into beats of two or three quavers (eighth notes). Often the pattern changes within a piece, but not invariably. So it might be 2,2,3, 3,2,2 or 2,3,2 in 7/8. When I'm conducting this sort of stuff I give (for these examples) three uneven beats. When I'm playing it under another conductor I tend to count quavers (eighths) as it's isn't always possible to deduce the groupings as you read the music. Lots of composers now don't make sure the beams on note groups are correctly done - they just leave it to the music program which might be right but probably isn't.


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seablade



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: feline1]
      #977839 - 23/03/12 05:24 PM
Quote feline1:

All this wrongness reminds me of my other bug bear:

the way MIDI sequencers and DAWs do their tempos in compound time signatures: when you write the metronome mark on sheet music for a compound time signature, you're usually stating the number of dotted notes (i.e. beats) per minute. But in most software, it still shows (undotted) crotchets per minute in the tempo setting. ARGGGH




In Ardour for v3 there has been extensive discussion on exactly this topic in fact, how to identify tempo and meter, and how those interact, particularly if you increase or decrease the amount of time in the middle of a piece.

Seablade


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TamaBrett



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: seablade]
      #978489 - 27/03/12 03:01 PM

Drives me nuts. I'm an Australian living in Japan and the Japanese refer to 1/4, 1/8th notes etc and I know lots of Americans. As hard as I try that little black note with a tail is a quaver and in my mind will always be a quaver.


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chris...
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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: TamaBrett]
      #978732 - 28/03/12 02:40 PM
I'm a Brit, but much prefer the American system, cos you can do arithmetic directly on it.

For example "a sixteenth note plus 3 forthy-eighth notes equals an eight note"

seems more logical to me than "a semi-quaver plus 3 triplet demi-semi-quavers equals a quaver".

So I suggest the word "quaver" is best used to describe a form of crispy snack.


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mc9320



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: chris...]
      #990259 - 29/05/12 05:15 PM
I also think the American system is better, but in the UK when I have taught students, I use both. It is important to know crotchets, quavers etc, but using eighth notes, quarter notes etc is generally more logical

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damoore



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Re: What do americans call a crotchet in waltz time? new [Re: tacitus]
      #1001251 - 01/08/12 11:52 PM
Quote tacitus:

Lots of composers now don't make sure the beams on note groups are correctly done - they just leave it to the music program which might be right but probably isn't.




I have always thought getting your beaming wrong was like spelling words so badly that pele have rubble retrieving the intended moaning. It makes a big difference to the sight reader.


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