Good afternoon people,

I've written a few songs over the past couple of years, just a as a hobby, and thoroughly enjoyed doing so. I try to figure out the correct key. Then start planting single notes in the piano roll. Once that's down, I try and fill it out a bit with chords.

However, it's ever-so-slightly frustrating that I can't seem to put in any chords (like Augmented or 7th's or Diminished) apart from simple Major and Minor, without it sounding a bit crap. I've read and watched various videos on chord progression and not once do they go, "The third chord is usually ripe for a good Augmented chord to give it that extra oomph!"

I was wondering if there's any particular times where it works or is it just a LOT of experience and trial & error? Perhaps, I just grew up listening to a lot of 80's dance music and have just found that I like those particular sounds. I feel like I should be doing more with the chords, but just can't get it across.

I'm not expecting a lengthy answer (if any answer at all :-D ), but feel free to elaborate. I'd definitely appreciate it, if you did.

Thanks,

Neil

Augmented and diminished chords are more at home in more sophisticated music, so if you're writing simple songs there may be no need for them. A great deal of modern pop music from the last few decades doesn't use them.

It's hard to say when they should or can be used. A diminished chord can be handy for changing key if you know how to do it, although it's going to have a certain sound that you might not like. The augmented 5th chord is not used that much (I use it sometimes, it's great when it works.)

I would just keep experimenting. There's no requirement you ever use them, but if you're looking for a bit more colour or sophistication in your writing they can help. Also try adding 6ths or 2nds or major 7ths or 4ths instead, they're often useful.

One other thing: added notes can be a bit glaring if it's just you playing piano (or guitar), but in the context of a band, or a whole mix, they can be much more subtle and pleasing.

There are lots of answers to this question, most of them I'm not competent to advise on but one thing you may want to consider is that you are starting with the melody and building from there. If you were to decide on a chord sequence, including fancy pants changes, then see what melody that implies you might surprise yourself.

Listen to some Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Nat King Cole, etc. It's all in there.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Thanks people.

I had a listen to a few Duke Ellington pieces, on youtube. I wouldn't know where to start with that. The double-bass (or whatever it is) seemed quite dominant in all the pieces. It certainly sounded like the one thing that was keeping the pleasantness moving along and the piano was creating chords all over the place. It sounded like a lot of out-of-place chords, but using small, single-note flurries to join them together. They sounded nice enough, but not quite a song I'd be comfortable with listening to repeatedly. Very different to what I'd listen to normally.

The stuff I listened to by Duke is pretty extreme, construction-wise, to my ears. Not quite the era, nor the style I can relate to, it just sounded a bit messy, but I understand that all those sounds were planned. I can't understand the reasoning behind them. :-)

People like Elton John, Billy Joel, Stevie Wonder sound great and more recently perhaps Newton Faulkner, David Gray and Ed Sheeran? Maybe, I'm trying to find something that isn't really there? Maybe, they all just play simple chords and I'm not experienced enough to hear what they're doing? I just assumed that good songs are littered with fancy and obscure chords and progressions when they're not... and they're just put together in a way that sounds interesting.

I've not got past simple triads and the thought of doing huge power ballads like Meat Loaf (whom I also like) is just a long, long way off. I guess should try and find the chords for some songs I like and just see if they are a lot simpler than I'm led to believe. sticking to Major and minor chords makes me feel like I should be doing more.

Thanks very much for your input, guys. It's most appreciated.

Neil

choice of chords should be based on what sounds right. the sound should pull the decision of what chord not a feeling of obligation.

having said that, the more unusual chords are great to add in to experiment. it's also worth starting with a new chord and add to it and see where that takes you.

generally, IMHO, chords such as dim's and aug's don't work that well if strummed, especially with distortion but they can sound more fluid with arpeggio or fingerstyle.

and of course the old adage of "jazz guitarists playing hundreds of chords in front half a dozen people verses rock guitarists playing half a dozen chords in front of hundreds of people"

You can build songs round chords as mentioned already or you can engineer part of a song to include a specific chord - but it will be a chunk of song you do this way because you'll need a sequence of chords to make your chosen 'special chord' work in context. But look at the great composers: Handel, Mozart and so on, whose harmonic language was not that far off what we use for songs nowadays. They don't use 'jazz chords' all the time just because they can; they use them sparingly because that's how they work best as a rule. If you listen to early Beatles albums you can hear what they did with new chords as they learnt them: new chord - whack it in a song. Also, you can do the strange chord trick where you repeat a verse, say for the third time, and at the point where everybody knows exactly what you're going to do next you do something completely different. An effective thing here is to hit the strange chord and then have a few beats silence so it can sink in. You don't have to make the next bit follow so smoothly, either, as you can reprise another bit you did earlier.

Does that make any sense? I know what I mean but I'm not sure if it's coming over.

Quote Dilithium:

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Thanks people.

I had a listen to a few Duke Ellington pieces, on youtube. I wouldn't know where to start with that. The double-bass (or whatever it is) seemed quite dominant in all the pieces. It certainly sounded like the one thing that was keeping the pleasantness moving along and the piano was creating chords all over the place. It sounded like a lot of out-of-place chords, but using small, single-note flurries to join them together. They sounded nice enough, but not quite a song I'd be comfortable with listening to repeatedly. Very different to what I'd listen to normally.

The stuff I listened to by Duke is pretty extreme, construction-wise, to my ears. Not quite the era, nor the style I can relate to, it just sounded a bit messy, but I understand that all those sounds were planned. I can't understand the reasoning behind them. :-)

People like Elton John, Billy Joel, Stevie Wonder sound great and more recently perhaps Newton Faulkner, David Gray and Ed Sheeran? Maybe, I'm trying to find something that isn't really there? Maybe, they all just play simple chords and I'm not experienced enough to hear what they're doing? I just assumed that good songs are littered with fancy and obscure chords and progressions when they're not... and they're just put together in a way that sounds interesting.

I've not got past simple triads and the thought of doing huge power ballads like Meat Loaf (whom I also like) is just a long, long way off. I guess should try and find the chords for some songs I like and just see if they are a lot simpler than I'm led to believe. sticking to Major and minor chords makes me feel like I should be doing more.

Thanks very much for your input, guys. It's most appreciated.

Neil

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Ha! Sorry, I didn't mean to put the fear of God in you but I think you understood my point - these things don't happen by accident, they're planned pretty carefully by clever folks. I love it but it's not for everyone.
We're all on the path to great sounding music. I agree with Tacitus' assessment of the Beatles' approach. Learn a chord - write a new song.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote tacitus:

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You can build songs round chords as mentioned already or you can engineer part of a song to include a specific chord - but it will be a chunk of song you do this way because you'll need a sequence of chords to make your chosen 'special chord' work in context. But look at the great composers: Handel, Mozart and so on, whose harmonic language was not that far off what we use for songs nowadays. They don't use 'jazz chords' all the time just because they can; they use them sparingly because that's how they work best as a rule. If you listen to early Beatles albums you can hear what they did with new chords as they learnt them: new chord - whack it in a song. Also, you can do the strange chord trick where you repeat a verse, say for the third time, and at the point where everybody knows exactly what you're going to do next you do something completely different. An effective thing here is to hit the strange chord and then have a few beats silence so it can sink in. You don't have to make the next bit follow so smoothly, either, as you can reprise another bit you did earlier.

Does that make any sense? I know what I mean but I'm not sure if it's coming over.

---

Yeah. That made sense. The difficult part is figuring out the transition between them! I like the idea of missing out a few beats to let the chord sink in.

Just for the record Stevie Wonder uses lots of extended chords. In fact almost every Stevie song I can think of does. David Bowie often uses diminshed chords, so no it's not just in jazz although it's most at home there.

If you listen to the chord in isolation it will sound odd, but as passing chords they will make sense, the tensions within them become released in the next chord. For example Aflat7 flat 5 may sound odd to you, but try it between Am11 and Gmaj7.

Try using dim7 chords to connect any two chords a tone apart. Try an augmented 7th at the end of a section that ends on the V chord (like in Superstition).

More sequences:

Play G major then A minor. Notice the difference (one is really just higher than the other). Now play G major, G#dim, A minor (I can provide diagrams). You can hear two bridging notes which form mini melody lines. If you then carry on to D7 the logical sequence is extended. It's not difficult or complicated, it's just difficult to describe without listening to it.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Thanks guys that's really interesting.

I've stuck a bit on Soundcloud. It's a private track and I don't know if a simple, direct link to it will work or it will just deny access? Please say so, if it doesn't. It would be nice to know for future reference. It obviously works for me and I don't want to set it to 'public'. I'll try and find another site to upload it to, if that's the case. I'm open to suggestions on that front, too.

chords

I ended up with (I think): -

C, G (1st inv), Am, Em, F, G, C (2nd inv) F.

Then,

C, G (1st inv), Em, Am (2nd inv), Dm, C, Am, G

I like the sound of it, but it's very plain. I put in some extra notes an octave lower to fill the sound out a bit. I might even have inadvertently created some of those elusive chords! Hopefully, using some of the stuff you all have suggested, I'll try and do a version where I can squeeze some chords inbetween them.

Thanks once again for your time, everyone. I've learnt some new things these past few days because of you all.

Neil

Soundcloud link isn't happy.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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Soundcloud link isn't happy.

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Thanks. Try this one.

20 seconds

Neil

Quote Dilithium:

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Good afternoon people,

I've written a few songs over the past couple of years, just a as a hobby, and thoroughly enjoyed doing so. I try to figure out the correct key. Then start planting single notes in the piano roll. Once that's down, I try and fill it out a bit with chords.

However, it's ever-so-slightly frustrating that I can't seem to put in any chords (like Augmented or 7th's or Diminished) apart from simple Major and Minor, without it sounding a bit crap. I've read and watched various videos on chord progression and not once do they go, "The third chord is usually ripe for a good Augmented chord to give it that extra oomph!"

---

There's lots of music available, as full notation (almost always with chord symbols when it's a popular-song style) and as just chords and lyrics. Some of it uses very basic chords, some is more complex.

Download, and study. I expect you know "Maybe This Time" from "Cabaret"? (Bear with me, even if this isn't your preferred style of music!) The first chord is the tonic - the "home chord". Then the tonic chord with a raised 5th - an augmented chord. Then the same chord with an added 6th. There you are - one way to use an augmented chord.

Yo

Nice use of augmented...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLhYxLE8uCA

Nice use of dim...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMgCpb1nli4

innit

hth

Quote Niaeve (sic) Newbie:

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Yo

Nice use of augmented...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLhYxLE8uCA

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Didn't recognise that at all until the chorus started. But it was obvious that the chords sounded a bit strange. My favourite era, too!

Quote:

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Nice use of dim...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMgCpb1nli4

innit

hth

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That was a lot harder to listen to. I couldn't quite work out if it was the guitar or the piano I was listening for. I tuned in to the drums and the tambourine and everything else kinda fell away. And when he mentioned Hare Krishna, all I could see is little, orange men lined up in Grand Theft Auto. :-)

Must... try... harder.

Thank you.

Neil

As Shufflebeat says, these chords are often used a passing chords. They originated in the use of melodic passing notes over simple triads and then became incorporated into standalone chords.

Eg. In going from E to A the melody or an inner part might pass from B to B sharp to C sharp. This passing note creates an augmented chord. The augmented chord behaves like a seventh chord, except that the augmented note pushes upwards towards a resolution where the seventh note would push downwards. The dissonace in these chords creates tension and their resolution a relaxation, so overall there is a movement and purpose in the parts, a continual process of creating and resolving tension. This can turn a succession of notes that nobody cares about into a gripping narrative. Or that's the idea.

A common use of the augmented chord is at the start of some rock 'n roll songs. Creates tension and pushes the listener towards the song. 'Riding along in my automobile....'

One handy thing about dim 7th chords is that it consists of four notes, where dropping any one of these notes a semitone creates a dominant 7th chord. This means it is easy to make radical but strong modulations in four very different directions from a dim 7th chord.

Quote petev3.1:

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........ a continual process of creating and resolving tension...........

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.....like page 3 and DIY?

IMHO there are 2 approaches to songwriting,first you hear good melody in your head or try write good one then you build chords around it.
Second,you build goodsounding chords ,bass,rhythm then add melody on top.
I found that ( i'm in 1st group )it's easier to insert the special chords,dim,aug chord in under melody becos the melody will help shaping that kinda chords ( examples that popped right in my head are beatles' yesterday,long and winding road...i think they wrote them with this method).This approach is good for ballads,slow mood pieces.
The second you go with rhythm,they are good for uptempo, ELO-xanadu came to mind,a good driven rhythm music still with lots of accidental notes from out-of-key chords.

Also it will help you a lot if you learn how to read notes,you will gain good ability to write and arrange good technics along the way

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I can read a basic, treble clef staff. Just very slowly. I can see single notes fairly quickly. Might even be able to play along to them slowly, too. I couldn't look at a bunch of notes, though, and know what chord it is.

Read 'Songwriting secrets of the Beatles' by Dominic Pedler.

Its all in there....

Quote Dilithium:

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I can read a basic, treble clef staff. Just very slowly. I can see single notes fairly quickly. Might even be able to play along to them slowly, too. I couldn't look at a bunch of notes, though, and know what chord it is.

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You've got some work to do then! It doesn't take long.

I took on board what you guys have said and had a play, tonight.

Feels better

I was thinking, "That sounds much better," but it wasn't until I looked at the piano roll and noticed that, even though I'd moved some notes about, +/- a semitone or whatever, every note was still on the white keys and still in the key of C. Kinda put a bit of a downer on it, to be honest. I just had a lot more inversions. I got a few Sus2 and Sus4's in there, mind!

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote Dilithium:

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I can read a basic, treble clef staff. Just very slowly. I can see single notes fairly quickly. Might even be able to play along to them slowly, too. I couldn't look at a bunch of notes, though, and know what chord it is.

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You've got some work to do then! It doesn't take long.

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LOL! :-) Do you think by learning the notes on a staff it might be easier to understand how to fill in the gaps? It certainly wouldn't do any harm, I know!

Thanks,

Neil

Based on what you've said and your music sample, you might be jumping a bit too far with your harmony study with diminished and augmented fifths, they are hard to listen to and hard to use. You're probably better off working with various 7ths first, eg M7, m7, 7. I'll write some thoughts later but here's an excellent example, Elton John "Sorry Seems to Be The Hardest Word". The opening piano after the strings, each dot means repeat the prev chord. The Gm is the first lyric "what have I got ..."

Gm . Em7♭5 . E♭M7 . Gm/D . Cm . . . Am7♭5 . D7 . Gm

Play these notes the slash means repeat


D..|..D..|..D..|..D..|..Eb.|..|..|..Eb.|..C..|..D
Bb.|..Bb.|..Bb.|..Bb.|..C..|..|..|..C..|..A..|..Bb
G..|..G..|..G..|..G..|..G..|..|..|..G..|..F#.|..G

G..|..E..|..Eb.|..D..|..C..|..|..|..A..|..D..|..G


That voicing might not be the best but it works.

See how the Em7♭5 has the same notes as the Gm, and the Am7♭5 is the same as the Cm? Only the bass note has changed.

You may have seen the ii7-V7-I cadence (eg Dm7, G7, C), well Am7♭5 D7 Gm is the minor key version of this.

Brett

Edited by TamaBrett (28/03/12 02:19 PM)

Not sure if this is obvious ... I'm writing it like music treble and bass staves, play all the notes vertically as a chord, left to right.



D..|..D..|..D..|..D..|..Eb.|..|..|..Eb.|..C..|..D
Bb.|..Bb.|..Bb.|..Bb.|..C..|..|..|..C..|..A..|..Bb
G..|..G..|..G..|..G..|..G..|..|..|..G..|..F#.|..G

G..|..E..|..Eb.|..D..|..C..|..|..|..A..|..D..|..G



Quote TamaBrett:

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Not sure if this is obvious ... I'm writing it like music treble and bass staves, play all the notes vertically as a chord, left to right.



D..|..D..|..D..|..D..|..Eb.|..|..|..Eb.|..C..|..D
Bb.|..Bb.|..Bb.|..Bb.|..C..|..|..|..C..|..A..|..Bb
G..|..G..|..G..|..G..|..G..|..|..|..G..|..F#.|..G

G..|..E..|..Eb.|..D..|..C..|..|..|..A..|..D..|..G



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Yeah. I get you. :-)

I'll have a go, when I get back from work, tonight.

Thank you,

Neil

It felt really good to play that. I never would have thought of those as one chord. I saw them as a triad and a bass note... as you described them on the staves. So, perhaps, I have created something like these (in the past) without realising I had.

However, my thoughts are that copying someone else's chords will help me practice and become a better player, but to learn the theory will require knowing why and how, I suppose. No, I'm afraid I hadn't heard of the ii7, V7 you mentioned.

Don't know if it's of any interest, but I took a screen grab of my piano roll. I wanted to make different chords joining the main ones. There may be some logic that I've stumbled upon, but it was all just guess-work and using my ears to determine if I did or didn't like it.



I'll shut up now. I feel I'm repteating myself and I have already taken up too much of all your valuable time.

Thank you all, once again,

Neil

Quote Dilithium:

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No, I'm afraid I hadn't heard of the ii7, V7 you mentioned.

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Ah, yes, I have! The chord prgession thing? Sorry, the penny has just dropped. :-)

Quote Dilithium:

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However, my thoughts are that copying someone else's chords will help me practice and become a better player, but to learn the theory will require knowing why and how, I suppose.

---

Theory is only the description of what has been discovered to work. Find a song with what sound, to you, like interesting chords. Learn notation so you can look at the printed music and see how he did it.

Yes, printed copies are often only an approximation of what's on the recording. But it's all part of the learning process. A big breakthrough comes the first time you say "Hey! This printed copy is wrong! What he actually played is..." ...and you can recognise, describe and write down what he played!

Nahhhh....

A - A/C# - D - D#dim

A - E Rockin' all over the world....!!!

Not exactly sophisticated!

A - A+ - Aadd6 - A7
D - E ..... Raining in my heart....!

Not exactly sophisticated either!!

Quote steve355:

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Nahhhh....

A - A/C# - D - D#dim

A - E Rockin' all over the world....!!!

Not exactly sophisticated!

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Well, I prefer the Ben Folds version, which takes the D#dim chord and brings out the interesting harmonic strangeness of it with some well-chosen piano solos, while still keeping the essential "I'm-going-to-bash-your-head-in-until-I-rule-the world" nature of the song.

If you're not the kinda guys that hear original music in your head then i suggest you try this
-Lay some cover melody that you like ( or find some from midis )on one track then mute all other tracks,
-start composing your own version of that song,try to make them as special ,very different from original.
-Mute or delete the melody,now start composing new melody over the strange chords that you made.

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Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Theory is only the description of what has been discovered to work. Find a song with what sound, to you, like interesting chords. Learn notation so you can look at the printed music and see how he did it.

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Excellent point. Another good expression is "it's a tool, not a rule".


I'll get around to writing something else for the OP but one thing I've done in my strained study of jazz is to get a fake book and watch the music as I listen to it. I do this for hours at a time and I find a great way to develop an ear.

I'm still listening. :-) I wish I could dedicate several hours a day to learning, but life is a bit too busy with the family and job. I'm still taking in everything you're all saying.

Thanks,

Neil

Augmented chord - can use a 5th augmented at the end of a chorus to bring you back to the verse. "I Hear You Knockin'" by Dave Edmunds:

1:31 and 2:26 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDAtsSi1ads

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Quote alexis:

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Augmented chord - can use a 5th augmented at the end of a chorus to bring you back to the verse. "I Hear You Knockin'" by Dave Edmunds:

1:31 and 2:26 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDAtsSi1ads

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That's quite distinctive... and also rather old. I wasn't even born in 1970, but I remember the song well. Either my parents or Top Of The Pops 2 are to blame. I'm going with the former of the two.

Thanks,

Neil

Quote Dilithium:

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Quote alexis:

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Augmented chord - can use a 5th augmented at the end of a chorus to bring you back to the verse. "I Hear You Knockin'" by Dave Edmunds:

1:31 and 2:26 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDAtsSi1ads

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That's quite distinctive... and also rather old. I wasn't even born in 1970, but I remember the song well. Either my parents or Top Of The Pops 2 are to blame. I'm going with the former of the two.

Thanks,

Neil

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Sigh, you're right, that is quite old - must be the 80's, or perhaps even the 70's! Perhaps song construction/music theory from those times (and earlier, certainly) is invalid/irrelevant by now, nothing useful there.

Carry on!

(**Whistles** "Gonna tell Aunt Mary ..." )

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Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

Quote alexis:

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Sigh, you're right, that is quite old - must be the 80's, or perhaps even the 70's! Perhaps song construction/music theory from those times (and earlier, certainly) is invalid/irrelevant by now, nothing useful there.

Carry on!

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It was 1970. I said that in my first sentence. Unless, I've misinterpreted your reply, your sarcasm has missed the spot. I didn't mean it wasn't relevant. I meant it was old. Like... "Grandad" old or "first kiss" old. Not, "it's so old it's irrelevant" old.

Still... a smiley at the end makes it all better.

Regards,

Neil

Quote alexis:

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(**Whistles** "Gonna tell Aunt Mary ..." )

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Little Richard - 1956. Very, VERY old! (Ooh, there's that smiley that makes everything alright again.)

Quote Dilithium:

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Quote alexis:

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Augmented chord - can use a 5th augmented at the end of a chorus to bring you back to the verse. "I Hear You Knockin'" by Dave Edmunds:

1:31 and 2:26 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDAtsSi1ads

---

That's quite distinctive... and also rather old. I wasn't even born in 1970, but I remember the song well. Either my parents or Top Of The Pops 2 are to blame. I'm going with the former of the two.

Thanks,

Neil

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Quote Dilithium:

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Quote alexis:

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Sigh, you're right, that is quite old - must be the 80's, or perhaps even the 70's! Perhaps song construction/music theory from those times (and earlier, certainly) is invalid/irrelevant by now, nothing useful there.

Carry on!

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It was 1970. I said that in my first sentence. Unless, I've misinterpreted your reply, your sarcasm has missed the spot. I didn't mean it wasn't relevant. I meant it was old. Like... "Grandad" old or "first kiss" old. Not, "it's so old it's irrelevant" old.

Still... a smiley at the end makes it all better.

Regards,

Neil

Quote alexis:

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(**Whistles** "Gonna tell Aunt Mary ..." )

---

Little Richard - 1956. Very, VERY old! (Ooh, there's that smiley that makes everything alright again.)

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Yes, please accept my apology for the sarcasm, no need for me to post as I did in reaction to yours.

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Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

This link maybe useful
http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/composition/seven-steps-to-writing-mem orable-melodies-part-1/
Learn how to write,read notes will help a lot in songwriting.
K

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