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thefruitfarmer



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1752
Loc: Kent UK
DIY acoustic treatment.
      #11325 - 12/09/04 09:47 AM

For about £200 I made twelve acoustic panels and four bass traps.

I ordered some Rockwool Slab from the builder’s merchant. I used RW6 grade Rockwool that is the densest and therefore absorbs the most bass. The slabs eventually arrived after several weeks waiting – I had four 100mm thick slabs and twelve 30mm thick slabs. They come 1000mm long by 600mm wide.

Rockwool is nasty to work with as the fibres can work their way into your skin and cause irritation. I took the precaution apart of handling it as little as possible and wearing a long sleeved shirt. After the minimal handling I washed my hands with cold water – if you wash with warm water this opens up the pores in the skin, which allows the Rockwool fibres to burrow inside. Washing with cold water closes the skin pores and gets the fibres off the surface of your skin. If you wanted to you could use gloves and a mask to avoid any potential problems. Some people are more sensitive than others to the fibres (those with asthma for example) and I would encourage anyone with any skin or breathing conditions to take extra care.

Thanks to Max the Mac for suggesting a method to seal the Rockwool slab. Using a mix of one part PVA adhesive with ten parts water and a few drops of washing up liquid all those nasty fibres can be sealed.

I also bought some 1000mm by 600mm MDF panels, to use as backing for the 30mm Rockwool slabs and enough cloth to cover each slab. I used denim and stretch denim, opting for a close weave to keep the fibres at bay.

So, using a paintbrush I covered each 30mm slab in a daubing of Max’s mixture. A plant sprayer, that normally sprays out a mist of water could be better though as using a brush is going to release some of those fibres. I then fixed the slab to the MDF board with some duck tape and proceeded to wrap the panel in fabric. I just used one layer of fabric and a staple gun to fix the cloth to the back panel. Then I hung them on the wall like large and heavy pictures.

The 100mm thick bass traps were just wrapped in fabric like Christmas presents and stood up, two in each corner one in front of the other.

Does it work?

The room is 8’6” square and has clearly audible modes, which mean the notes B and F# are louder than they should be.

Without treatment there is a definite high frequency ring and an exaggeration of the volume of notes at the modes.

After adding the panels the high frequency ring has been reduced to an acceptable level. The bass still booms at the modes when the music is at a high volume but the traps absorb the excess bass up to a modest volume level. In general the sound has much more clarity and I can hear detail that was previously hidden.

So yes…….it works.

I have used no testing equipment as yet. I am adding more panels and judging by ear if the sound is improved.

The panels have been positioned four on the front wall, two on the back wall and one on each side wall. I used a shaving mirror to position the panels on the side and back walls. I placed the panels where the reflection of the speaker could be seen from the listening position in the mirror on the wall.

I am going to make four more panels to dampen the sound a little more and I may put some treatment on the ceiling too.


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: thefruitfarmer]
      #11573 - 12/09/04 08:35 PM
Hi Fruity

There are a few additions I'd like to make to your post.

1) The major health factor with mineral wool is not the skin irritation, (Although that in itself is bad enough) but the fact that the fibres can cause irreparable damage to your respiratory system. For this purpose I must add that it is advisable , indeed, essential that you wear a face mask during ANY work with this material. I also recommend using disposable boiler suits with elasticised limb closures and a Hood.

2) The Spray application of the liquid is far more efficient and effective, as well as safer. As I suggested, use an old plant sprayer... such as those you get for greenfly treatment of roses , but ensure they are cleaned thoroughly before use... (and After if you intend to make more )

3) The Corner traps would almost certainly be more effectively used diagonally across the corners rather than directly in the corner. The air gap will lower the bottom of the effective frequency band and increase efficiency. Mount One on top of another giving 2 meters of diagonal corner trapping rather than in front of each other.

4) Tape isn't a terribly effective fixative, spray contact adhesive, applied to rear of the AMW sheet, and front of the Board is more effective, and once the material is wrapped around, is better at preventing sag over the long term.

5) Fixing the 100mm stuff to a board is also advisable, as they will sag in the long term without some support.
Also, this would enable use of these in the wall to ceiling vertices as well as wall to wall.

In general I would fit one diagonally to the centre of each wall to ceiling join, and two upright diagonally in each vertical corner.

Fitting them diagonally is actually quite easy once you have the knack of it, but is most definitely a two man job, as it's impossible to support the weight in the correct position AND fit the supports.

if you affix 4 suitably strong Eye bolts to the supporting board, and 2 to the the wall (as tight into the corner as possible) , a few inches in from the end of a panel, then you can use steel cord or chain link to suspend the panel, pulling it tight into the corner at 45 degrees diagonally across it. This basic method can be applied to both the wall to wall joins and ceiling to wall joins.


you may find you need to use a third central one if the wall construction is less than solid.... in the absence of available direct fixing to timber frame or masonry wall, proper load spreading wall inserts should be used in the case of partition walls and the typical internal room within room wall construction.

6) RW6 is NOT the densest available stuff..... AMW is available in densities up to about 120KG/m^3


7) Bearing in Mind this is part of my "day job" I hope you'll understand when I don't give away every single trick of the trade

But this should be sufficient to avoid unfunny disasters in the DIY sector !

Best regards
Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Michael Harrison
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #11713 - 13/09/04 07:32 AM
Great thread guys; this is particularly of interest to me, as I should shortly be commencing gutting my spare bedroom - read 'studio-to-be'.

Mike

--------------------
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Doublehelix



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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: thefruitfarmer]
      #12021 - 13/09/04 01:51 PM
Quote:

Using a mix of one part PVA adhesive with ten parts water and a few drops of washing up liquid all those nasty fibres can be sealed.




For us "language-challenged" Americans , what is "washing up liquid"? Is that just a liquid hand soap???

Thanks! Great post!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Anonymous
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #12024 - 13/09/04 01:54 PM
Quote:

For us "language-challenged" Americans , what is "washing up liquid"? Is that just a liquid hand soap???



Nope - that's liquid hand soap

Washing up liquid is the liquid soap/detergent that we brits use in the water when we're washing up the dinner plates


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thefruitfarmer



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1752
Loc: Kent UK
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #12723 - 14/09/04 11:17 AM


Quote:



For us "language-challenged" Americans , what is "washing up liquid"? Is that just a liquid hand soap???

Thanks! Great post!




yw

Just in case you, or anyone in America, is thinking of using a DIY method I understand that the materials available are different in that country; so, you may have a problem finding the Rockwool slab and have to use an alternative material.

Also, the DIY involves a fair amount of research, work and time which, if you factor that in with the cost of the materials, brings down the relative cost of the real traps or something similar......

I now need to rearrange the panels for greater dampening and go out again to buy more fittings.


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James PerrettModerator



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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: thefruitfarmer]
      #12786 - 14/09/04 12:15 PM
Quote:



Just in case you, or anyone in America, is thinking of using a DIY method I understand that the materials available are different in that country; so, you may have a problem finding the Rockwool slab and have to use an alternative material.






I believe that Owens Corning 703 is the US equivalent of Rockwool RW3 - but I'm not sure about RW6 - 706 maybe? Ethan would know for sure.

Cheers.

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Digipenguin
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: James Perrett]
      #12885 - 14/09/04 01:38 PM
Quote:



I believe that Owens Corning 703 is the US equivalent of Rockwool RW3 - but I'm not sure about RW6 - 706 maybe? Ethan would know for sure.

Cheers.

James.




RW3-60kg/m³
RW5-100kg/m³
RW6-140kg/m³

701-24kg/m³
703-48kg/m³
705-96kg/m³

We have an equivalent material here, RXL80 which is 128kg/m³, made by a company called Roxul but it is not as effective as OC 700 Series rigid fiberglass.

http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

This link is available in the sticky at the top of this acoustics forum as well.

--------------------
John D. Geisen
Owner DPS


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: ]
      #13563 - 15/09/04 12:46 PM
Quote:

Quote:

For us "language-challenged" Americans , what is "washing up liquid"? Is that just a liquid hand soap???



Nope - that's liquid hand soap

Washing up liquid is the liquid soap/detergent that we brits use in the water when we're washing up the dinner plates




Hehe...thanks! Got it! Nice picture Eyan! Explains things perfectly!

So let's say that I decide to make some basic DIY panels here in the US, and use the OC 703 rigid fiberglass...should I also seal those with Max's secret formula??? I am assuming that the fiberglass fibers are equally as nasty, right?

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Digipenguin
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Joined: 12/12/02
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #13630 - 15/09/04 01:56 PM
No. As a matter of fact, as of 2001 fiberglass is not even considered a carcinogenic material based upon studies performed over the last 15 years. Here's the link to the American Lung Association's article on the matter. They don't even recommend a respirator unless you experience irritation. Personally I still use a mask but do with it what you will:

http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35439

--------------------
John D. Geisen
Owner DPS


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Digipenguin]
      #15175 - 17/09/04 02:52 PM
DP, This is unsound advice.

PLEASE NOTE

While they have , at the instigation of the industry, removed the Carcinogenic tag, it still undeniably causes physical damage to the airways and lungs, as such it should be classified as a hazardous material, and all the usual precations, INCLUDING FACEMASKS should be undertaken.

anything that causes ANY physical injury to your insides should be treated as a serious issue....

MAx.

I'll be offline for a week, so behave...

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Scottdru
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Digipenguin]
      #15313 - 17/09/04 05:13 PM
Quote:

No. As a matter of fact, as of 2001 fiberglass is not even considered a carcinogenic material based upon studies performed over the last 15 years. Here's the link to the American Lung Association's article on the matter. They don't even recommend a respirator unless you experience irritation. Personally I still use a mask but do with it what you will:

http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35439



The current administration here has decided lots of things are not as bad for us as they really are, which is why they have increased the legally allowable levels of cyanide and other hazardous pollutants in our drinking water.

Anything for the kids, you know . . . "no child left behind" and whatnot. Hehe . . . and here we thought they were talking about education, not erradication.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?


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Digipenguin
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #15384 - 17/09/04 07:30 PM
Maybe it was. I'm not so sure. I can't find any reports of fiberglass being linked to irreparable damage except in long term high exposure incidences. Either way, note I did say I wear a mask (Momma didn't raise no fool). But I'm not going to tell anyone that they need to if I know there is evidence to the contrary. I said, "do with it what you will". Personally, I'm currently making some bass traps and I am going to seal them somehow, probably with hairspray as it is already mixed and comes in an aerosol to begin with.

--------------------
John D. Geisen
Owner DPS


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leostones
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: thefruitfarmer]
      #15888 - 19/09/04 01:52 AM
[wide.

care.

.

So, using a paintbrush I covered each 30mm slab in a daubing of Max’s mixture. A plant sprayer, that normally sprays out a mist of water could be better though as using a brush is going to release some of those fibres.


Does sealing the rockwool in this way not affect the absorption properties at all?

--------------------
Come on everybody and sing with me, when I say rice, you say and pea


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: leostones]
      #15907 - 19/09/04 03:23 AM
Yes. Principally at higher frequencies.

If you're only using the slabs to trap bass then that's not really a problem; if you're using it as an exposed surface to trap higher frequencies in a broadband trap or HF/MF absorber then it'll affect performance. The effect increases proportionally with frequency.

However: if you're using it in a more broadband application, you'd normally be fronting it with fabric of some kind rather than leaving it bare. The fabric will restore the vast majority of the higher frequency absorption characteristics.

A couple of other points:

When I first mentioned using PVA solution to stabilise mineral wool/glass fibre slabs in this way, I deliberately suggested using a spray. Even if it's done very very carefully, brushing applies a lot (too much) of the PVA solution to the slab. A spray allows for a very thin/light and even coat of the solution and gives one the option of additional similar coats as necessary. The idea isn't to make the slab inpregnable or weatherproof, just to stabilise loose surface fibres so that they don't dislodge with the kind of vibration or airflow to which they'll be subjected in gentle handling or when installed.

Though recent research suggests that mineral wool/glass fibre products aren't carcinogenic, they are still highly irritant, particularly to the respiratory system and can cause long term damage potentially leading to very serious illness. It's important to take appropriate precautions when handling it.


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: leostones]
      #19358 - 22/09/04 05:55 PM
As 0VU notes, bare Panels that have been So treated, exhibit slightly lower Hf absorption figures.

HOWEVER

if you've chosen an appropriate wrapping material, this can be effectively counteracted , generally yielding results comparable to or occasionally superior to that of an untreated bare panel, but with the superior aesthetic appearance .

With relation to the health risk aspect.

ANY fibrous substance that can cause laceration to the Airways and acts as an irritant, rapidly lays you open to all sorts of secondary infection, and over prolonged exposure, this also creates scar tissue in areas where you REALLY REALLY do NOT want it.

WHY am I banging on at this???

I have absolutely NO bloody idea


I'm off to take the wife out to Dinner


Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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thefruitfarmer



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1752
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Getting worried..... new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #19862 - 23/09/04 08:34 AM
Quote:



With relation to the health risk aspect.

ANY fibrous substance that can cause laceration to the Airways and acts as an irritant, rapidly lays you open to all sorts of secondary infection, and over prolonged exposure, this also creates scar tissue in areas where you REALLY REALLY do NOT want it.

WHY am I banging on at this???

I have absolutely NO bloody idea







Just to add..............

If I was working with the stuff on a regular basis I would be a lot more concerned about exposing myself to the fibres. After the job I could feel a few fibres burrowing into my forearms and I expect a few are doing the same in my lungs. It is not something I would want to subject my body to again and again; ideally I would n't want to have any fibres contact me at all.


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Digipenguin
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #21327 - 24/09/04 04:35 PM
Max, just for you.

http://webpages.charter.net/jdgeisen/BassTraps/BassTrap1.htm

Check out page 4.

--------------------
John D. Geisen
Owner DPS


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Chris of Arabia
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Digipenguin]
      #24532 - 30/09/04 09:14 AM
Quote Digipenguin:

Max, just for you.

http://webpages.charter.net/jdgeisen/BassTraps/BassTrap1.htm

Check out page 4.




Does no one know how to make a decent dovetail joint any more?

>;o))

--------------------
Rome wasn't built in a day. But it was built...


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Digipenguin]
      #25144 - 30/09/04 08:35 PM
Nice one John....... they look well tasty.,...

I'll have a half dozen for Christmas yeah??

Brownie points duly awarded for the health and safety warning.

Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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Digipenguin
posting's fun


Joined: 12/12/02
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #25505 - 01/10/04 12:48 PM
Quote Max The Mac:

I'll have a half dozen for Christmas yeah??




$150 apiece and they're yours!

Quote:

Brownie points duly awarded for the health and safety warning.




I thought you might like that. I started feeling guilty about my earlier advice. Social responsibility....what a PITA!

CYa.

--------------------
John D. Geisen
Owner DPS


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thefruitfarmer



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1752
Loc: Kent UK
DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: thefruitfarmer]
      #61553 - 12/12/04 07:10 PM
Here are the studio pictures -

I have added more panels to deaden the room further. There is now a total of ten 100mm panels and twelve 30mm panels. I have also put some packing foam on the ceiling, which reduces the flutter echo.

If I was doing this again I would maybe change the colour of the traps - the grey denim, blue denim and purple look okay but the black traps around the ceiling are a little oppressive.

The mirror type fittings on the 30mm panels work well. The fittings for the 100mm panels panels work but were tricky to put up. With two (or more) screw eyes in the wall and an eye bolt in each corner of the MDF backing of the bass trap the idea is to pull the cable tight and tension the trap into the corner. This worked easily when hanging the traps vertically across the corners behind the speakers at the floor/wall/wall tri corner because gravity pulled the trap down and “took up the slack” quite nicely. When hanging the traps at the ceiling/wall corners the job became more difficult though as the job became hindered by gravity rather than helped. Also, the heavy duty picture wire when cut to size leaves a razor sharp edge which can (and did) lacerate my hands. Still, if I ever need to move it would probably take about 4 hours to remove and pack all the panels and maybe a day to install them somewhere else.

The total cost has been about £400.

It took a bit of imagination to arrange the traps in such a limited space. The additional panels have made a considerable difference though - the music can now be played a lot louder before the room starts to resonate and exaggerate the notes at the nodal points.


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Scott R. Foster



Joined: 24/11/04
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Loc: Jacksonville, FL - USA
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: thefruitfarmer]
      #61598 - 12/12/04 08:43 PM
Replying to various points from various folks:

1) Rockwool and fiberglass are both utterly inert materials [basically sand] - getting all worked up and pretending they are harzardous materilas is a waste of time... more fun to worry about Aluminium cookware IMO. The stuff is very scratchy, and long sleeves are definately reccomended... full hazmat suits are not a benefit to the process [unless you think they are sexy]. Paying attention to this advice may save you some discomfort, but it may also waste an absurd amount of time and trouble... use you common sense. If these materials were not safe, all construction sites would be hazardous waste zones, and all modern buildings would need to be unihabitable.

Avoided contact is a good idea but don't start pretendeing you are dealing with plutonium. Having working in the boat building trade I have more than a passing acquaintance mineral fiber [I have been covered head to toe in its dust from ginding hulls moer times than I can count]. The stuff will cover you in tiny cuts (it is like glass) and these take a couple days to heal and leave your skin and throat feeling raw and prickily. All in all it a great idea to keep it off your skin, but it aint that big a deal.. not near as bad as getting wet concrete all over yourself [now that will stuff will tear you up and leave you miserable] just because a material is abrasive doe snot mean it is hazardous.. don't confuse the two concepts. Also, once set in place the material will not bother you.. you could put a stack of 703 in the corner of your bnedroom and it would never cause irritation ['cept maybe your spouse' bitching].

2) Backing boards, fabric covers, sticky sprays, elaborate fittings and fixtures are all meaningless from an acoustic stand point... if not required to meet your aesthetics (or tin foil hat hazardoius material fantasies) then skip these parts as much as possible.. they just waste time and money.

3) In a very small room - such as the the subject room of this thread - the first logical step is an absorptive ceiling. Standard commercial grid and tile is one way to do this. The tiles can be made of thick mineral fiber - and these can be covered in cloth, or standard tiles can be topped by bulk mineral fiber panels/batts (laid above the tiles). This allows the installation of dozens and dozens of sf of treatment with zero frame building (and maybe zero cloth.. just lay them in above the standard tiles).

4 Thicker panels work much better than thin ones low in the band. In a very small room, I would suggest you need to use very thicker panels with as much air gap as is feasible [air gap enahances perfomance). The panels in the pics look fairly thin and most seem to be mounted flush to the wall.

5. Use lighter weight materials many of the descriptions and pictures linked to this thread show framework that is much heavier than required.

6. Rockwool is to fiberglass as basalt is to sand... and density variesaccordingly. The density of the two flavors of mineral wool should also vary for acoustic purposes. Corning 703 = 45 kg/m3 or 2.8/lbs/cu.ft., Rockwool board which is 60 to 65kg per m3 is pretty much acoustically equivalent to a 45kg/m3 fiberglass products like 703. See Bob Gold's site for more details. Different flavors of mineral wool have different structural properties as well as acoustic ones.. pick the right flavor to balance your acoustic needs with the least difficult means of installation and you will save a lot of time and trouble.

Good Luck!

--------------------
http://readyacoustics.com
http://forum.studiotips.com


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Scott R. Foster]
      #61746 - 13/12/04 09:28 AM
Quote Foz:

1) Rockwool and fiberglass are both utterly inert materials [basically sand] - getting all worked up and pretending they are harzardous materilas is a waste of time... more fun to worry about Aluminium cookware IMO. The stuff is very scratchy, and long sleeves are definately reccomended... full hazmat suits are not a benefit to the process [unless you think they are sexy]. Paying attention to this advice may save you some discomfort, but it may also waste an absurd amount of time and trouble... use you common sense. If these materials were not safe, all construction sites would be hazardous waste zones, and all modern buildings would need to be unihabitable.




I would agree that in itself, Rockwool (and fibreglass) is an 'inert material' that presents no long term threat if left undisturbed.

However, while handling this material there can be no doubt that very small fibres are released into the air, and if breathed in they can enter and settle in the lungs. It is the body's reaction in efforts to remove these 'alien' fibres where the problem starts -- but often not until years afterwards.

When working with any dusty material, common sense decrees that wearing a face mask is a sensible precaution. The earlier suggestion to help reduce the volatility of fibres by spraying a light glue mix on the panels may also help, and certainly can't harm.

Yes, it adds marginally to the overall time and expense, but it's not significant to the overall project of constructing panels, and the peace of mind justifies it as far as I'm concerned.

And likewise, if you find the dust irritates the skin, a disposable paper boiler suit will save many hours of discomfort and scratching for anyone susceptible, and costs only a few pence.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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crunchie1967



Joined: 03/09/04
Posts: 47
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #61835 - 13/12/04 12:31 PM
Quote Max The Mac:


3) The Corner traps would almost certainly be more effectively used diagonally across the corners rather than directly in the corner. The air gap will lower the bottom of the effective frequency band and increase efficiency. Mount One on top of another giving 2 meters of diagonal corner trapping rather than in front of each other.

5) Fixing the 100mm stuff to a board is also advisable, as they will sag in the long term without some support.
Also, this would enable use of these in the wall to ceiling vertices as well as wall to wall.




Firstly, thanks for the good advice for covering and sealing the nasty fibres away. I am a novice just starting on a modest home project.
Can someone clarify something for me. I have seen many postings about leaving an air gap between absorbers and walls to help the process (see quote above), but if you mount your rockwall to a board, won't that give the same effect as placing it flat against the wall? Hence, if it is board mounted there is no point in positioning it away from the wall? Or am I just missing the point here? Thanks.

Edited by crunchie1967 (13/12/04 12:32 PM)


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Scott R. Foster



Joined: 24/11/04
Posts: 357
Loc: Jacksonville, FL - USA
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: crunchie1967]
      #61886 - 13/12/04 01:38 PM
Quote:

Can someone clarify something for me. I have seen many postings about leaving an air gap between absorbers and walls to help the process (see quote above), but if you mount your rockwall to a board, won't that give the same effect as placing it flat against the wall? Hence, if it is board mounted there is no point in positioning it away from the wall? Or am I just missing the point here? Thanks.





Bingo!

A mineral fiber panel mounted to a board spaced off the wall aint exactly the same as flush to wall, but it aint near as good as gapped off the wall "naked". As to how to do it, there are many baths to Buddha. If we are talking about a wall unit, you can use a board wider than the panel thickness...like a 1x6, or even a 1x8 for a 4" panel, and have the gap inherent to the frame... or you could just add cleats [little feet] to the frame to gap it off the wall. If you use a French cleat this can be arranged so as to create a gap.

More to the point, all these added elements are meaningless acoustically save to the extent they serve to mount the mineral fiber where you want it. Example, suppose I took a fitted baby crib sheet [with elastic all the way around the hem] and added grommets to the backside edge... now imagine I put the sheet on a panel of 4" 703 and I threaded bungee cords through pool noodles and clipped em to the grommets.






and then hung the whole thing on the wall. The sheet holds onto the panel, the hangers hold the sheet to the wall, and the noodles create a 2-3" air gap. Bob's your ankle.

In the corner just running across the diagonal leaves a gap.

In a drop ceiling, the gap will well neigh unavoidable as you'll have to set the grid low enough to so you have enough room to install tiles with a bulk mineral fiber topper.

This doesn't mean that a gap is better than a full thickness of mineral fiber of the proper density, rather that whatever thickness you have, a gap helps. Example, 3" of 703 gapped 3" off the wall is better than 3" flush to the wall but not as good as 6" flush to the wall.

Good Luck

--------------------
http://readyacoustics.com
http://forum.studiotips.com


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thefruitfarmer



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1752
Loc: Kent UK
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Scott R. Foster]
      #61982 - 13/12/04 03:48 PM
Quote Foz:



4 Thicker panels work much better than thin ones low in the band. In a very small room, I would suggest you need to use very thicker panels with as much air gap as is feasible [air gap enahances perfomance). The panels in the pics look fairly thin and most seem to be mounted flush to the wall.






Hi Foz....

The twelve blue and purple panels are 30mm thick RW6 (140kg/m3) and the ten black and grey panels are 100mm thick RW6.

The 100mm panels are all across corners whilst the 30mm panels are fitted to MDF and are just hung on the wall like big heavy pictures.

How much more absorbsion do you expect I would get if I used some spacers and set the 30mm panels away from the wall?

I did consider this when planning the project and I decided that I could not lose the space in such a small room. Now everything is arranged though I possibly could set the panels slightly in from the wall. However, going with my original plan I decided to just add more panels which achieves the same result as with less panels spaced away from the wall but takes up less total space in the room.

Regards

FF


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olivier
new member


Joined: 27/05/02
Posts: 441
Loc: paris, france
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #62008 - 13/12/04 04:33 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:



Rockwool (and fibreglass) is an 'inert material' that presents no long term threat if left undisturbed.






I would be quite careful with such statements especially at a time where dozens of contradictory reports have been made about fiberglass and all.

may I just remind you what governments and so-called experts said about asbestos in the sixties and seventies?

they said that basically it was not hazardous as soon as you were protection to handle it. the fact is they were wrong and apart from the Quebec province in canada (with brasil, the world's biggest producer of asbestos), no one today even dare thinking about using asbestos in buildings.

after bans in the nineties, replacements for asbestos were to be found. compressed rockwool is one. the fact is rockwool and glasswool both produce tiny fibers that can potentially be carcinogenic as they ARE comparable in size and shape to asbestos. Meaning once they're in your lungs they can stay there for months if not years.

The fact is that rockwool and fiberglass are usually sitting in the "2B" class, ie "might be carcinogenic".
class 1 is tobacco, etc.
Rockwool (the company) products have been classified as "3" which puts them in the "non carcinogenic" class.

but not ALL glasswool and rockwool are , so do your homework and search around.

Besides that, official classifications like this one is not fixed once for all, and I'm sure one can find times where asbestos was classified as "non hazardous" .

asbestos has long term effects (ie 30 years horizon) on health and nobody knows about rockwool and glasswool effects on humans (yet). they've done extensive clinical (ie tests by inoculation) research on rats, not humans. The only research on humans was epidemiologic and no evidence showns yet about a link between rockwool/fiberglass exposure and cancer.

so, the message is clear :
if, like me, you smoke , drink and live in the city (gasoil exhaust fumes are carcinogenic too !) then just don't worry about handling rockwool.

if you're in the other camp, then
1/ stop using acoustic panels
2/ don't handle rockwool/fiberglass
3/ buy foam instead.

Edited by olivier (13/12/04 04:39 PM)


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22305
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: olivier]
      #62192 - 13/12/04 10:34 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Rockwool (and fibreglass) is an 'inert material' that presents no long term threat if left undisturbed.




Quote olivier:

I would be quite careful with such statements especially at a time where dozens of contradictory reports have been made about fiberglass and all.




I share your concern Olivier, which is why I posted my note of caution in response to Foz's rather more casual approach to the issue.

However, like Asbestos, I think it fairly safe to assume that Rockwool and Fibreglass are essntially 'inert' *provided* they are left undisturbed. It is the dust released when these products (like asbestos) are disturbed, handled or broken up that represents the hazard. And the obvious precautions against dust inhalation are thus sensible in my opinion.

Like you, I'd rather be safe than sorry when handling these kinds of materials and unlike Foz, I don't see the additional modest expense or time involved in taking such precautions to be wasted in any way.

Only time will tell whether those of us who wear face masks are over-reacting or not, but by then it will be too late, won't it!

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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Scott R. Foster



Joined: 24/11/04
Posts: 357
Loc: Jacksonville, FL - USA
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: thefruitfarmer]
      #62209 - 13/12/04 11:21 PM
Fruit:

I don't have any 1.25" thickness RW6 data but Bob Gold's absorption data sheet

http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

shows 2" RW6 flat to the wall as dropping off a cliff between 250 Hz and 125 Hz... so I reckon 1.25" flat on the wall don't do much at all on your LF resonances.

OTOH 2" RW6 with a 12" gap aint too shabby for LF.... so I would surmise that air gap can significantly improve LF performance in this material.

Given your space constraints, I'd consider getting rid of the backer boards, and making a light weight frame that will hold the 1.25" finished panels you have and allow you to add another mineral fiber panel behind [no additional cloth covering required].

Maybe something like a 1x6 frame with one of your finished panels in front, about 3" of medium density rockwool [60 to 65kg per m3 range] behind that and then cleat the frame to wall so that between the cleats and the the extra depth at the back of the frame you get at least a couple of inches of air gap... I bet that would work noticably better low in the band than the thin panels as installed.

Also, as described previously in this thread, if you could get a full ceiling treatment system of some kind, that would really help. In a room this small, that is the first thing I would have done... getting a small room to work at high SPL aint trivial. I am given to understand from Paul [who's ears I probably trust more than my own] that Mark did it, but twern't easily done.

My $0.02

--------------------
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http://forum.studiotips.com


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thefruitfarmer



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1752
Loc: Kent UK
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Scott R. Foster]
      #62641 - 14/12/04 08:09 PM



“I don't have any 1.25" thickness RW6 data but Bob Gold's absorption data sheet
bobgolds.com
shows 2" RW6 flat to the wall as dropping off a cliff between 250 Hz and 125 Hz... so I reckon 1.25" flat on the wall don't do much at all on your LF resonances.”


These 30mm panels were never intended to treat the LF……and like you say they don't.

Incidently, Rockwool are selling something rather similar…… Rockwool (click on the “reverberation” link for the pdf)…

“OTOH 2" RW6 with a 12" gap aint too shabby for LF.... so I would surmise that air gap can significantly improve LF performance in this material.”

The 100mm traps across 6 tri-corners, 2 wall/ceiling corners and 2 wall/wall corners has a gap of 13” at the maximum point. These eat up the bass.


“Also, as described previously in this thread, if you could get a full ceiling treatment system of some kind, that would really help. In a room this small, that is the first thing I would have done... getting a small room to work at high SPL aint trivial. I am given to understand from Paul [who's ears I probably trust more than my own] that Mark did it, but twern't easily done.”

Interesting that, the more I think about it the less of a PITA a ceiling job seems to be and it would have the advantage of keeping more floor space too. The ceiling could come down a little (only a 6” gap between ceiling and top of window though) and this would also have the advantage of making the room not a 8’6” cube. I would expect that less bass trapping would therefore be necessary after installing a lowered ceiling. However, there would be less room for the bass traps so the whole plan could backfire if the amount of trapping required exceeded the now reduced space to put it in.

I would n’t like to predict the results, despite liking the idea with its potential to create a more ergonomic room…..

…….and that rockwool is nasty and itchy stuff to work with so I think I’ll stay with what I have for now.


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9399
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Scott R. Foster]
      #62694 - 14/12/04 10:05 PM
Quote Foz:

Replying to various points from various folks:

1) Rockwool and fiberglass are both utterly inert materials [basically sand] - getting all worked up and pretending they are harzardous materilas is a waste of time... more fun to worry about Aluminium cookware IMO. The stuff is very scratchy, and long sleeves are definately reccomended... full hazmat suits are not a benefit to the process [unless you think they are sexy]. Paying attention to this advice may save you some discomfort, but it may also waste an absurd amount of time and trouble... use you common sense. If these materials were not safe, all construction sites would be hazardous waste zones, and all modern buildings would need to be unihabitable.

Avoided contact is a good idea but don't start pretendeing you are dealing with plutonium. Having working in the boat building trade I have more than a passing acquaintance mineral fiber [I have been covered head to toe in its dust from ginding hulls moer times than I can count]. The stuff will cover you in tiny cuts (it is like glass) and these take a couple days to heal and leave your skin and throat feeling raw and prickily. All in all it a great idea to keep it off your skin, but it aint that big a deal.. not near as bad as getting wet concrete all over yourself [now that will stuff will tear you up and leave you miserable] just because a material is abrasive doe snot mean it is hazardous.. don't confuse the two concepts. Also, once set in place the material will not bother you.. you could put a stack of 703 in the corner of your bnedroom and it would never cause irritation ['cept maybe your spouse' bitching].

2) Backing boards, fabric covers, sticky sprays, elaborate fittings and fixtures are all meaningless from an acoustic stand point... if not required to meet your aesthetics (or tin foil hat hazardoius material fantasies) then skip these parts as much as possible.. they just waste time and money.

Good Luck!




Foz.

The irritation and tissue damage that can be caused by inhaling the small fibres, is not to be taken lightly.

Advising some otherwise is [irresponsible]. ***Edited for argumentative tone***

The stuff is not of itself carcinogenic or toxic, BUT the damage it can cause to soft tissue in the lungs can increase the likelihood of all sorts of unpleasant and often fatal illnesses. They can also trigger asthma attacks and other respiratory trauma.

I suggest you check your health and life insurance policies very carefully.... because self inflicted harm may not be covered, and it's possible that they may refuse to pay on that basis.

Insurance companies have used thinner excuses to renege on payment expectations ...
*** edited out pointless and argumentative bits ***

To quote Linus "Oh I love mankind alright, it's people I can't stand ! "
Max


***OI!, Max, Bloody well behave yourself and stop winding up the residents! You're making a fair and important point which, for the record, I completely agree with, but you're not making it like the polite, friendly and considerate chap I know you are. I know it's important and we share some very strong feelings on health and safety matters but you still need to make the point properly or you undermine it's validity.
Now be a good boy or Santa won't be bringing you a nice new PC to replace all those dodgy old Macs 0VU ***

Edited by 0VU (15/12/04 01:57 AM)


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thefruitfarmer



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1752
Loc: Kent UK
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #62894 - 15/12/04 10:54 AM
c'mon OVU.......

What Max wrote (I read the "raw" version and it is n't that bad IMO) does n't need removing unless someone actually complains about it.

For the record I reckon Foz is right when he says we are not dealing with plutonium here. I made the panels and traps without a space suit, mask or gloves and I feel fine. The risks are not clearly established and I don't feel we need to panic quite yet. However, people used to inhale asbestos dust and work with it daily until the link with cancer was established in the 70's.

Thing is, I have done the work without taking precautions and at this point in the game I don't appreciate people hyping up the potential risk. If I was doing this again I would use a mask, gloves and hazmat suit. The fibres are itchy and burrow into the skin, stay on your clothes and get in your lungs. Although no sinister risk has been established I reckon it's worth using the safety clothing anyway to avoid the itching and extra individual washing of your regular clothes - especially if you are working with the stuff on a regular basis.

I am still waiting for Foz to reply with an alternative plan for an 8'6" cube room. So far he has posted the suggestion that I set the 30mm panels away from the wall (which is not really practical) and I reckon three panels on the wall absorbs as much as two panels set away from the wall, whilst taking up less space. I don't really know if the theory supports this assertion but I would like to find out. I would also like to know if ceiling treatment would be practical and whether the resulting reduced space in the room would be sufficient for adequate bass trapping.

I started this thread so anyone wishing to make their own DIY treatment would have a template they could use as a basis for their own treatment. I have taken a "suck it and see" approach and taken ideas from what people have used with success rather than calculating in theory what should work and then building to that specification. I don't reckon that theory can always be translated into the real world with complete accuracy either - as soon as you put a person and furniture in the room you affect the acoustics.

The system I have allowed me to install several panels and easily move them around and add more once I had listened to the room and decided on a second tweak. Treatment to the ceiling or stacking triangles of Rockwool in the corners would be somewhat more permanent and consequently more difficult to adjust. The fitting method I used means I don't have to count on my theoretical calculations making an accurate prediction (my physics and maths is okay but not up to graduate or professional level) for the real world.

At the moment there seems to be a great deal of people quoting figures and pretty graphs at each other and trying to decide whether data is valid or whether we have reached the boundary of physics . This is all very interesting in a way (I am following the infamous real traps thread as it goes) but this is not much use to people who want to treat their room without getting the calculator out.

I just want people with a working, practical or theoretical knowledge of acoustics to apply it to the real world situations, like my box room. This would helpful to those of us lacking that particular education when we want to make our own acoustic treatment without heading for disaster or expensive mistakes.



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Paul Woodlock



Joined: 23/11/04
Posts: 791
Loc: Peterborough, UK
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: thefruitfarmer]
      #63168 - 15/12/04 06:25 PM
Quote thefruitfarmer:

......

I am still waiting for Foz to reply with an alternative plan for an 8'6" cube room. So far he has posted the suggestion that I set the 30mm panels away from the wall (which is not really practical) and I reckon three panels on the wall absorbs as much as two panels set away from the wall, whilst taking up less space. I don't really know if the theory supports this assertion but I would like to find out. I would also like to know if ceiling treatment would be practical and whether the resulting reduced space in the room would be sufficient for adequate bass trapping.




Greetings Grower and Harvester of Fruit

You could do worse than have a look at Mark Edmonds Studio Build Diary http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=456

It sound absolutely great in there.




Quote:

I started this thread so anyone wishing to make their own DIY treatment would have a template they could use as a basis for their own treatment. I have taken a "suck it and see" approach and taken ideas from what people have used with success rather than calculating in theory what should work and then building to that specification. I don't reckon that theory can always be translated into the real world with complete accuracy either - as soon as you put a person and furniture in the room you affect the acoustics.

The system I have allowed me to install several panels and easily move them around and add more once I had listened to the room and decided on a second tweak. Treatment to the ceiling or stacking triangles of Rockwool in the corners would be somewhat more permanent and consequently more difficult to adjust. The fitting method I used means I don't have to count on my theoretical calculations making an accurate prediction (my physics and maths is okay but not up to graduate or professional level) for the real world.

At the moment there seems to be a great deal of people quoting figures and pretty graphs at each other and trying to decide whether data is valid or whether we have reached the boundary of physics . This is all very interesting in a way (I am following the infamous real traps thread as it goes) but this is not much use to people who want to treat their room without getting the calculator out.

I just want people with a working, practical or theoretical knowledge of acoustics to apply it to the real world situations, like my box room. This would helpful to those of us lacking that particular education when we want to make our own acoustic treatment without heading for disaster or expensive mistakes.






I disgagree the StudioTips 4 Devices Test Data isn't valid for real world use. You don't need a calculator. The data shows a valid comparison of two commercial devices and 2 DIY designs. Of course their are OTHER factors, than sheer acoustic absorption performance, when choosing a method, but absoprtion performance is important none the less.

Regarding practical applications. Corner wedge DIY broadband absorption, along with absoprtive panels on the walls/ceiling to diminish early reflections has bee shown to work in practise many times.

Quote:

I would also like to know if ceiling treatment would be practical and whether the resulting reduced space in the room would be sufficient for adequate bass trapping.





Ceiling treatment ( assuming enough available height ) is great!

In fact in my studio build I don't have much height at all, so I am taking this approach......


From the listening position I am building a false ceiling that slopes downwards towards the front wall. No one can stand up in this area anyway, due to it being full of furniture ( DAW Workstaion to be exact ), so the reduced height doesn't matter. This false ceiling will be full of rockwool. It will serve TWO purposes. The thicker rockwool above the false ceiling where the front wall meets the ceiling will be broadband standing wave trapping, and as the sloping ceiling gets higher towards the listening position, the rockwool here will serve as an early reflection absorber 'panel'


So to answer your above question, I would say that the ceiling treatment can be a part of the 'standing wave trapping treatment', and not something that leaves less room for trapping ( as I think? you were asking/indicating. I hesitate to use the word 'bass trapping' as standing waves can affect lo-mid performance as well.


Also it's a shame you can't put the Early reflection absorbing panels away from the wall a bit. Is space too tight to even put the 30mm panels so there's a 30mm airgap behind them. You'll lower the freqeuncy of efective absoprtion, plus incrasing absorption performance overall.

Bear in mind that when sound reflects off a wall, the velocity of the air particles is zero at the wall. So that absorption right at the walls surface for reflections is ineffective.

Just some thoughts


Paul

--------------------
Pauls Studio Build Diary at http://forum.studiotips.com/viewforum.php?f=1


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Ethan Winer



Joined: 19/11/02
Posts: 828
Loc: New Milford, CT USA
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. *DELETED* new [Re: Paul Woodlock]
      #63199 - 15/12/04 07:42 PM
***Content moved to new thread on standing waves here 0VU ***

--------------------
The acoustic treatment experts

Edited by 0VU (16/12/04 01:47 AM)


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Paul Woodlock



Joined: 23/11/04
Posts: 791
Loc: Peterborough, UK
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Ethan Winer]
      #63206 - 15/12/04 07:56 PM
***Content moved to new thread on standing waves here 0VU ***

--------------------
Pauls Studio Build Diary at http://forum.studiotips.com/viewforum.php?f=1

Edited by 0VU (16/12/04 01:45 AM)


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Ethan Winer



Joined: 19/11/02
Posts: 828
Loc: New Milford, CT USA
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Paul Woodlock]
      #63265 - 15/12/04 09:41 PM
***Content moved to new thread on standing waves here 0VU ***

--------------------
The acoustic treatment experts

Edited by 0VU (16/12/04 01:46 AM)


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Ethan Winer]
      #63269 - 15/12/04 09:53 PM
***Content moved to new thread on standing waves here 0VU ***


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Ethan Winer



Joined: 19/11/02
Posts: 828
Loc: New Milford, CT USA
Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: ]
      #63272 - 15/12/04 10:00 PM
***Content moved to new thread on standing waves here 0VU ***

--------------------
The acoustic treatment experts

Edited by 0VU (16/12/04 01:48 AM)


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: DIY acoustic treatment. new [Re: Ethan Winer]
      #63278 - 15/12/04 10:09 PM
***Content moved to new thread on standing waves here 0VU ***


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