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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
moving my studio to a smaller room
      #613711 - 09/05/08 09:40 AM
Marriage and lifestyle changes and all that, and I've moved out of this place (my first SOS post I think), on to a bigger home but a rather unsatisfactorily small music room only 375cm by 272cm by 242 cm high. Here's a pic.



I haven't run modecalc on those dimensions yet, but I will. I have 4 mini traps and some Auralex, which I'll suitably place.

I had KRK Rokit 8s in the old place. I'm guessing they are too big for the new room, so I rashly bought a lightly-used pair of Klein and Hummel O110s on ebay. They haven't shown up yet.

So anyways, is proper bass monitoring possible in small rooms? The range of stuff I like to work on includes hip-hop and dance music, so I'd like more bass than I expect out of the K&Hs. If I were to pair a sub (with crossover) with the O110s, would the bass be just as problematic in the small room as with a pair of 8' woofers, or worse?

I fully expect to be told by you lot to go out and get some proper headphones, so I'm eyeballing the Sennheisers that have been recommended elsewhere, but if it's in any way possible to get pumping bass in this shoebox, I'd sure like to.

thoughts?
ryan


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Glenn Kuras



Joined: 22/12/05
Posts: 344
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #613789 - 09/05/08 01:21 PM
I will say your room is pretty small, but with enough bass trapping (more then 4) it can be done. In fact you would not be the first one, MANY have done mixing in rooms that size with much success.



Glenn

--------------------
www.GIKAcoustics.com
Glenn Kuras


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magicdog
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #613912 - 09/05/08 07:48 PM
I think you would be better off to avoid a sub in a room that size...


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #618827 - 24/05/08 09:26 AM
An update:

After a day of farting around with Room EQ Wizard, I've come up with the best positions for the 4 bass traps I have.



Three of them will go in 3 of the 4 corners of the room as shown (the 4th corner is impossible because of the door), and the 4th, which you can see freely standing, will go under the desk. These seemed to be the best positions.


The two plots in this graph show the room without the bass traps (red) and with the bass traps in the above positions (blue). (I did try a whole lot of other positions, but I'll spare you the graphs-- this was the "best", or least problematic, response.) But there's clearly room for more bass trapping-- that trough between 90 and 100Hz is particularly disturbing.

The scary thing, though, is the high end!!! What's worse is that I already had the auralex that you see in the pictures in place when I did the tests!!

The duvet on the back wall wasn't there at the time of the testing, but other than that everything was just as you see it here. I'm thinking of moving the rear Auralex panel in front of the window, and I have a few small pieces still lying around, but clearly I need a WHOLE lot more high-end damping, and some more bass trapping.

I can't damage the walls permanently as we're renters, but I don't mind throwing some money at the problem. DIY is difficult/impossible; although I was fairly at home with DIY projects in Canada, the whole culture here is just not conducive to people doing things themselves, which makes it really hard to source materials etc., and besides I'm without most of my tools.

Suggestions?


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thefruitfarmer



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1752
Loc: Kent UK
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #618840 - 24/05/08 11:25 AM
Quote ryan mead:



Suggestions?






You can mount minitraps horizontally rather than vertically, as you have them now. ie...with a long end against the ceiling rather than a short end.

This way you can put some more bass traps along the ceiling / wall corners as well as the tri-corners, which you already have.

I did this in an 8'6" cube room and it made a clearly audible difference but less of a difference than trapping placed in the tri-corners.

I used RW5, based on Ethan Winer's advice for a smaller room, which is one of the denser grades of rockwool.

Tricky really.....you could just get more minitraps and then experiment with where you can position them. In your case it seems there is a trade off between the "best" position and where they can be placed in practicality. That said, anywhere you put them will make some difference and even if you can't get them in the "best" position you could probably get acceptable results using more of them...

Hope this helps.


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young david



Joined: 25/11/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Stockholm
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #618937 - 24/05/08 07:06 PM

If you haven't already done this, I'd start by experimenting a bit with moving the listening position a foot or two along the lengthwise dimension. Might help with the bump around 46 and your 90-100 dip.

Failing that I'd agree that dip at 90-100 is likely to be the biggest problem, so would think about something that will help with that on the back wall and/or wall/ceiling apex.

Wouldn't be too worried about the top end - looks fairly smooth apart from the roll-off after 10k but if that's not the mic then maybe your new monitors will help. I think it's normal to have a lot of narrow peaks and troughs but as long as they're narrow it's not something that will affect your judgement. Besides, the wavelengths are getting so small up there that if you move your head a centimetre it will all change anyway.

You have my sympathy as my room's about this size at the mo, though it's better acoustically than larger ones I've had before. Final tip would be once you've settled on the layout, print your room eq graph and stick it on the wall. Helps to know that your mixes should sound slightly boomy or thin in certain areas, and you'll start to recognise these peaks and troughs in reference mixes. All about making the best of it.

Dave

--------------------
http://youngdavid.net


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: young david]
      #619039 - 25/05/08 05:00 AM
Quote thefruitfarmer:


You can mount minitraps horizontally rather than vertically, as you have them now. ie...with a long end against the ceiling rather than a short end.



I did try holding one of the Realtraps across the back wall-ceiling interface (much to my wife's amusement) and it had less of an effect than in the corner, where it is now. (But of course it still had some beneficial effect.)

Quote young david:

Wouldn't be too worried about the top end - looks fairly smooth apart from the roll-off after 10k but if that's not the mic then maybe your new monitors will help. I think it's normal to have a lot of narrow peaks and troughs but as long as they're narrow it's not something that will affect your judgement. Besides, the wavelengths are getting so small up there that if you move your head a centimetre it will all change anyway.



Really? The high end sounds so much more lifeless than in my old (bigger) room. Just sort of dull, lacking crispness, and generally worse, like when my old room had no treatment in it at all.

The mic was a Rode NT2A in omni mode and the preamp was one of my Fireface 800 preamps (used as a preamp only, sent to the Tascam US122 sound card I used for testing) so I don't think the mic is responsible for the high-end rolloff.

I've had a suggestion to put 6 GIK 244s up-- four across the wall/ceiling interface and two on the back wall-- but I am still worried about my top end.


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Jim Y
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Joined: 30/03/04
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #619136 - 25/05/08 01:59 PM
The high end trouble might be due to reflections off the TFT and desk. Try the TFT further back and see if something absorbent (pillow, thick towels) temporarily placed over the desk improves things.

I wouldn't be surprised if it would also improve things if you can move the speakers further away from the window.

Would it not be better to experiment with desk/speaker position before putting any traps in? - That way, changes for the best with these positions will be more apparent, and you can then position your traps to suit the room with all your equipment in place.

I have a small room - what became apparent to me was that the acoustic effect of the objects in the room is greater in this situation than it would be in a larger space - even changing the size and style of my studio chair made a difference (out went the executive swivelchair - in came a canvas directors chair).


Jim


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JWL - RealTraps



Joined: 25/05/08
Posts: 5
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #619167 - 25/05/08 04:25 PM
Hi Ryan,

I replied to your email, but for posterity's sake I'll include my reply here, so that it hopefully benefits others as well.

You can definitely get good results in a room that size. Smaller rooms need proportionately more bass trapping. The 4 you have are a good start. If you want to expand on them, I'd consider the following:

1. More bass traps (such as MiniTraps) in the wall/ceiling corners. The front wall looks tricky because of the window, but the side walls and the rear wall look doable. Start with the rear wall, and then do the sides.

2. Rear wall treatment. I'd recommend using the HF version of our MiniTrap, mounted on the rear wall above the couch. I think you could get 3 on the wall. You'll want to space the panels out a few inches from the wall, as described on this page: http://realtraps.com/mini_door.htm Mounting this way will increase the overall absorption, and give you about an extra octave of bass trapping. Most rooms, especially smaller rooms, have a bass buildup on the rear wall, so adding these will help a lot. I recommend the HF version so that they also absorb the rear reflections.

Just these 2 steps will help quite a bit. Once you have the rear wall treated and as many wall/ceiling corners as you can fit, the next thing I'd do if you desire further room improvement would be to replace the Auralex tiles you have with additional HF MiniTraps mounted at the first-reflection points on the side walls and the ceiling, spaced out the same way as the rear wall traps. You could then move the Auralex tiles to other areas of the room (ie, the ceiling or side walls at the rear of the room, spaced out evenly in a quasi-checkerboard pattern).

--------------------
www.RealTraps.com
www.craftedrecordings.com


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young david



Joined: 25/11/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Stockholm
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #619218 - 25/05/08 08:32 PM
Quote ryan mead:


Really? The high end sounds so much more lifeless than in my old (bigger) room. Just sort of dull, lacking crispness, and generally worse, like when my old room had no treatment in it at all.

The mic was a Rode NT2A in omni mode and the preamp was one of my Fireface 800 preamps (used as a preamp only, sent to the Tascam US122 sound card I used for testing) so I don't think the mic is responsible for the high-end rolloff.





OK, well if it's not the mic then I guess the roll-off is a bit worrying. I guess with the Rode you should have a presence peak somewhere high up. Plus if it sounds bad...

My point was just that the sharp peaks and dips before 10k aren't necessarily cause for alarm - even really well-treated rooms will have these.

--------------------
http://youngdavid.net


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: JWL - RealTraps]
      #619393 - 26/05/08 01:59 PM
Quote JWL - RealTraps:

I replied to your email, but for posterity's sake I'll include my reply here, so that it hopefully benefits others as well.





Thanks JWL for the considered reply, and welcome to the SOS forums! I'll be in touch via email.


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: magicdog]
      #619398 - 26/05/08 02:13 PM
A big "thank you" to everyone who's been following this thread-- you've given me a lot to think about!! For the next few weeks it's going to be tuning this room and keeping up on my chops on my wife's clavinova in the living room-- no mixing!!!

Sooo... I finally got the K&H O110s out of custom's clutches today.

Wowowow. I played some Sumi Jo, the Waterboys' "Fisherman's Blues", and some other acoustic stuff. Those speakers have been reviewed elsewhere so I won't do it again here but I am positively spanked.

Then I played some trance and was less than impressed-- all of the bass information really muddies up the middle, much as was happening with my Rokits. Let's blame the room, not the speakers. I'm going to fix the bass end with about 6 more 2x4 traps, but as I mentioned in my first post, I never expected the very diminutive K&Hs to be up to working on dance music by themselves.

I do, however, have a Tannoy sub with a crossover lurking unused in my parents' basement back home.....

Quote magicdog:

I think you would be better off to avoid a sub in a room that size...



Second opinions on that one? Even if the room is bass-trapped to the bejeezus? (As it soon will be.)


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magicdog
member


Joined: 25/04/01
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #619410 - 26/05/08 02:48 PM
Quote magicdog:

I think you would be better off to avoid a sub in a room that size...




Second opinions on that one? Even if the room is bass-trapped to the bejeezus? (As it soon will be.)




I would still say the same...!

If you add a sub you will be adding hugely to the bass problems in a small room and in the end you will need so much bass trapping, you won't be able to get into the room...


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: magicdog]
      #620069 - 28/05/08 05:04 AM
Quote magicdog:

in the end you will need so much bass trapping, you won't be able to get into the room...




OK I get it...


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #636561 - 13/07/08 03:34 AM
So, I've got all this rockwool, and as I don't have room for any superchunks, I think I'm going to apply it 15cm deep, floor-to-ceiling, wall-to-wall on the back wall.

Any thoughts on that one?

rd


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Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
Posts: 3888
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #636604 - 13/07/08 12:03 PM
well, it'll do something.....

it just won't do what you need it to do........


whaddya mean No room for superchunks??


there's ALWAYS room for superchunks.... but you might have to think laterally to find it....

remember., ANY corner is valid , whether it's wall meets wall, or wall meets ceiling, or wall meets floor......


and there's NO excuse really for not filling in the upper tri-corners, where ceiling meets 2 walls ....... there's always ways of doing things.....


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #636620 - 13/07/08 12:56 PM
Quote idris y draig:

and there's NO excuse really for not filling in the upper tri-corners, where ceiling meets 2 walls .......




er... a door? A window that's the width of the room? That seems to be a pretty good excuse to me as far as 3 of the 4 upper tri-corners go!

I could do the 4th (see the above pic; I've taken down the Realtrap for the time being), but it would be at the expense of symmetry at the back of the room. Still figure it's worth doing?


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Here be Dragons


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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #636761 - 14/07/08 08:37 AM
there's no reason you couldn't mount stuff on the door you know..... there's all sorts of clever ways .... if using the mini-traps, then it's possible to use a hinge arrangement so that it can be folded out of the way , either mounted on the door, so it opens with the door, or on the other wall and arranged to fold out of the way of the door....


(i've done this sort of thing no end of times)


note I said the upper TRI-corners....


also, look up a product called clearsorber... it can be formed to create a transparent bass trap across the window.... or across the top ceiling to window/wall corner....


there's almost always a way to do what's needed, but it's often not the straight forward obvious and "normal" method...


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #636888 - 14/07/08 02:34 PM
Quote idris y draig:

if using the mini-traps, then it's possible to use a hinge arrangement so that it can be folded out of the way , either mounted on the door, so it opens with the door, or on the other wall and arranged to fold out of the way of the door....




You are fuggin' brilliant! Stay tuned...

(and yeh the ceilings are low so the door effectively interferes with a tri-corner...)


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #638587 - 18/07/08 03:34 PM
Quote ryan mead:

DIY is difficult/impossible



Scratch that.

Quote idris y draig:

whaddya mean No room for superchunks??



OK, you convinced me.

First up for your viewing pleasure we have the patent-pending "sofa-straddling-superchunk-stand"... stay tuned for the sofa-to-ceiling superchunk that will call it home...



Next we have the bottom right corner superchunk, which will also double as a base for a narrower (and less overbuilt) superchunk that will go right to the ceiling. That narrower superchunk will be one of a matched pair for the front wall-wall interfaces.

Here are two views of the front floor superchunk in progress.



I'm going to do all of the prep for all of these superchunks and make some frames for new mirror-point panels, which will incorporate my existing Auralex with rockwool behind it. Then we're going to have a 48-hour period of CSA (Complete Spousal Absence), during which I'll tie into the rockwool. (Koreans believe unquestionably that rockwool causes cancer. Period.)

Meanwhile, if anyone has any suggestions or sees anything amiss, I'd love to hear about it...


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zvalera



Joined: 28/06/08
Posts: 12
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #639411 - 21/07/08 05:28 PM
How do you upload your pictures as part of your post???


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: zvalera]
      #639486 - 21/07/08 08:52 PM
Quote zvalera:

How do you upload your pictures as part of your post???




Quick answer: you don't upload them to this website. Find a home for them elsewhere on the web (e.g. photobucket, flickr) and then reference them in your post using the "Image" tag, which you can find under "Instant UBB Code".


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #640688 - 25/07/08 12:32 PM
Here's a big trap that will go flat on the back wall. I'm already kicking myself thinking it's too high, because it will stretch all the way from the sofa to the ceiling, and thus interfere with putting something along the rear wall-ceiling interface.


Oh well... maybe I can put one of my realtraps in front of it when it's done.

It's upside down in this shot, btw.


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9380
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #640767 - 25/07/08 04:36 PM
nice to see it coming along ryan.... yes you can mount the mini trap in front of the flat trap... although the actual results would be difficult to precisely predict, theoretically they will at least probably not be detrimental.


glad the pet dragon seems to have inspired you to find your diy soul

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #641423 - 28/07/08 01:46 PM
Quote Max!:

your diy soul




My diy soul??? I'm ready to throw my &%$#*@ jigsaw out the &%$#*@ window

I've created a monster. Er, rather, given that "monster" and "mondo" are taken, I've decided to call my monstrosity a "whaleTrap"(TM). Et voila:






It groans under its own weight, and weighs well over 100 pounds! I'm going to have to build a floor stand for it.

By the way, the walls in my room seem to be concrete (or at least when I try and drive a nail in, it bends and gets nowhere) and the ceiling seems to be some kind of fairly strong plasterboard (I had a realtrap mounted to the ceiling, hanging simply from two wood screws without any kind of anchor). My original plan was to hang a few things from the ceiling (a quick plaster and wallpaper job when we move out) with the superchunks on the floor, but now I'm thinking about getting serious with holes in the wall.

I'm really wishing I had spec'd slightly less dense rockwool just to mitigate the whale/weight problem somewhat.

On to the mirror-point traps (did I mention I'm sick of jigsawing?):



Notice in the background that one of the (two) piles of rockwool has shrunk from 4 packs to three. So I've got 87.5 percent of my rockwool left...


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Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #641472 - 28/07/08 04:28 PM
the framing looks to be a bit heavier than is perhaps strictly necessary, which is perhaps where some of the weight is......

other wise... nice work...


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Ian Savage



Joined: 16/12/07
Posts: 611
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #641646 - 29/07/08 08:41 AM
Looking at the response graph for the room (and my acoustic engineering is rusty, years since I had space to practice it ), haven't you got a resonance at 45Hz, cancellation at 90, resonance at 135, cancellation at 180 and so on?

That being the case, could you build a tuned absorber of some sort, maybe a resonant panel type? It'd be too big to get in the room to knock a hole in the 45Hz resonance but tuning for 135Hz might have an effect?

EDIT: having just done pack-of-fag-packet calculations, a resonance of 45Hz would have a wavelength of 7.6m, hence a half-wavelength being around 3.8m (the longest length of the room).

I'll have to go back to the books to check whether tuning something to knock out the peaks in the response would make the troughs better or worse though.


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Ian Savage



Joined: 16/12/07
Posts: 611
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #641766 - 29/07/08 01:35 PM
Thinking about it the peaks and troughs at the listening position will be caused by standing waves at half-wavelength multiples of the room's lowest resonance (in this case 90Hz); I'd guess that you'd get the opposite if you measured next to the rear wall (trough at 45Hz, peak at 90Hz etc) so setting up a tuned absorber at 45 or 90Hz would knock out some of the wave energy at those frequencies.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug98/articles/practicalacoustic.html


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: Ian Savage]
      #641767 - 29/07/08 01:46 PM
Quote Ian Savage:

Looking at the response graph for the room (and my acoustic engineering is rusty, years since I had space to practice it ), haven't you got a resonance at 45Hz, cancellation at 90, resonance at 135, cancellation at 180 and so on?



Hmmm, according to this screenshot from the mcsquared website, it looks like you might be onto something.
------------------------------

------------------------------
I'd always interpreted these results to mean that I should be getting peaks at 45, 90, 135 etc and troughs in between. Am I wrong?


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #641768 - 29/07/08 01:51 PM
Oops! Looks like we cross-posted.

Anyways, I have another theory about the 45Hz peak, which is that it's the resonance of the ported 8" KRK Rokits I used for the original tests. Those speakers have since found another home.


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #641772 - 29/07/08 02:12 PM
Quote idris y draig:

the framing looks to be a bit heavier than is perhaps strictly necessary, which is perhaps where some of the weight is......



Yeah, figure you're right. I actually have been revising my plans in the direction of lighter bits of wood since I started out. The batten boards in the whale trap were the heaviest bit-- that sliced 1.8mm plywood (sorry folks this is a metric operation) for the frame is actually pretty light stuff.

Nevertheless, the whaleTrap ate a whole pack of rockwool, and 1m x 1m x 20cm of rockwool is 0.5 of a cubic meter, and this stuff is 200kg/m3, so that's 40 kg (or 88 pounds) right there.

Anyways, here's today's output:



Just like the whaleTrap, but smaller. Shall we call them dolphinTraps? They're meant to go at the mirror points on the wall.

The boards on the front of the frame are sliced a bit wide, I agree, but it was all dictated by the dimensions of the rockwool, the Auralex, etc...

btw I've been using this spray adhesive:



to affix the Auralex to the Rockwool. Here's hoping I haven't gone too far wrong. (The guy in the hardware store was holding it and saying "suh-pon-jee" so I guess I got my point across.) If I spray it thinly only on the Auralex, it does nothing, but if I prime the rockwool with it and then spray it semi-liberally on the Auralex, it grabs instantaneously and just doesn't let go.


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #641802 - 29/07/08 03:20 PM
@idris y draig (and anyone else who cares to comment):

Help me out on this one. I'm wondering what to do with the space behind the door. I have a couple of ideas:


1) (OK this is your idea) Rig one of the RealTraps so that it spans the wall-wall intersection, either at the floor or the ceiling (sadly, the room isn't tall enough for two RealTraps, one above the other), so that it automatically gets pushed out of the way when the door is open, and spans the intersection when the door is closed, perhaps even acting as a weight to automatically close the door somehow.

If I have to manually move the RealTrap in place every time I close the door, this will complicate my relationship with the outside world when it seeks to intervene.

There's a few restrictions here: I'd like to avoid carving up the door at all costs, and drilling into the concrete wall if possible, because we're tenants.

How about a diagonally ceiling-mounted RealTrap that gets pushed up when the door opens?

2) Just build a floor-to-ceiling variant of the whaleTrap (sans Auralex). I still have 80% of my rockwool left, after all.

3) Some combination of #1 and #2.

Thoughts?

(Thanks everyone btw for all of the thoughtful comments from all the different angles. Hopefully I'll end up with a frequency-response curve you could use as a billiards table.)


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Ian Savage



Joined: 16/12/07
Posts: 611
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #641809 - 29/07/08 03:53 PM
Quote ryan mead:

[
I'd always interpreted these results to mean that I should be getting peaks at 45, 90, 135 etc and troughs in between. Am I wrong?




Not at one steady position, where you'd get exactly what you measured - a peak at one resonance followed by a trough at the next and so on.

If you draw the diagram showing the sound pressure distribution in a standing wave you'll find that for a half-wavelength standing wave (in this case circa 45Hz) the pressure is at a maximum in the centre of the room and zero at the walls (where the particle velocity is at its maximum). For the next resonance up along that room axis (90Hz, in our case) you can fit TWO half-wavelengths in the room, so at the same position (the centre of the room) the pressure is now zero whilst the velocity is at a maximum. For the next one you'll get three half-wavelengths packed in there, so at the centre of the room you get a pressure maximum (peak) again, and so on.



After a few hundred Hertz these generally cease to matter too much, as general diffraction of the smaller wavelengths makes it much harder to set up a standing wave.

I reckon behind the door's the perfect wall for a tuned membrane absorber, like wot I said before (there's a link to a SoS article on them in my last post, in case you missed it!). Tune it to 43-45Hz (if your room measurements are accurate be as anal about the exact frequency as you want!), knock a big chunk of the standing wave energy out of the room and you'll find a greatly flattened response or your money back


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thefruitfarmer



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1752
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #641864 - 29/07/08 06:23 PM
Quote ryan mead:



1)....

How about a diagonally ceiling-mounted RealTrap that gets pushed up when the door opens?

2) Just build a floor-to-ceiling variant of the whaleTrap (sans Auralex). I still have 80% of my rockwool left, after all.

3) Some combination of #1 and #2.

Thoughts?






I would go for something floor to ceiling on a hinge that gets pushed open when the door is opened and is pulled back when the door is closed.

I don't think you can avoid drilling holes in the walls but a vertical trap will need less support than a horizontal trap across the ceiling wall join.

Maybe you could put a wheel on the bottom of a vertical trap? This would take some of the weight.

I suspect it is easier with your inward opening door rather than the outward opening door I have in my room.


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
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tuned traps now? new [Re: Ian Savage]
      #641953 - 29/07/08 11:45 PM
Quote Ian Savage:

I reckon behind the door's the perfect wall for a tuned membrane absorber, like wot I said before (there's a link to a SoS article on them in my last post, in case you missed it!). Tune it to 43-45Hz (if your room measurements are accurate be as anal about the exact frequency as you want!), knock a big chunk of the standing wave energy out of the room and you'll find a greatly flattened response or your money back




Well, you really got me thinking about this one. I originally dismissed the article seeing as it was written in 1998 and I've gleaned that the conventional wisdom these days is not to go for tuned traps, but now that you've shown me the pattern to the peaks and troughs it seems painfully obvious.

Of the two types of tuned trap mentioned in the article, the panel absorber seems to be the obvious one (or is it?).

A few questions:

1) Would the door have to be closed for the thing to work effectively? (I'm guessing "yes" on that one.)

2) Would a piece of 8mm plywood (I have it on hand) be appropriate for the resonant surface (assuming I do the math)? If not, what else would you suggest? (Being in South Korea makes it all the more difficult to source strange/rare/obscure materials.)

3) Assuming I make a box about 8 inches by 3 feet by 8 feet (tweaked to satisfy the equation) and just stand it in the corner, is there any merit to not bracing the back with plywood, and maybe standing the box an inch away from the wall, to get another resonant surface happening? Or would this complicate the math?


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thefruitfarmer



Joined: 01/09/04
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Re: tuned traps now? new [Re: ryan mead]
      #642010 - 30/07/08 07:59 AM
Quote ryan mead:



.... the conventional wisdom these days is not to go for tuned traps.....






Not without good reason.

Nearly everyone uses broadband absorbers.

Less space, easier to build, cheaper, portable, difficult to get it wrong.


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Ian Savage



Joined: 16/12/07
Posts: 611
Re: tuned traps now? new [Re: thefruitfarmer]
      #642089 - 30/07/08 10:40 AM
Quote thefruitfarmer:

Quote ryan mead:



.... the conventional wisdom these days is not to go for tuned traps.....






Not without good reason.

Nearly everyone uses broadband absorbers.

Less space, easier to build, cheaper, portable, difficult to get it wrong.




...but worth it when it's a specific frequency causing most of the problems, surely? A tuned-membrane trap won't take up much more space than a broadband bass trap (takes up less than one that goes appreciably low), they can't be that hard to build, as I made one once - hardest bit was getting it properly sealed.

Okay, tuned absorbtion needs a bit more design work, but it's nothing someone with Maths and Physics GCSEs couldn't handle.


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #642122 - 30/07/08 12:01 PM
I saw a thread once where someone built a corner trap in a frame with wheels, and then they could move it in and out of the way of a door when needed. Similar to the frames you have already built for your corner traps, just with casters.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #642376 - 31/07/08 01:34 AM
A visit from the king of studio renovation threads himself! Hi James!

If I devise something movable for the behind-the-door corner, it's going to have two (not insurmountable) restrictions on it:

1) As my original sketch shows, the sofa's going to take up all of the space on the back wall not required for the door to open, so the movable space has to live in the small area behind the door when it's open.

2) I would like something that gets out of the way automatically when my wife opens the door so that she doesn't think I've gone into bar-the-door-shut, goddammit-I'm-creating-don't-bother-me mode just because I've put a bass trap in place.

On the basis of a few Studio SOS's I've read, part of me is predicting that the bass response will be more even with the door open anyway.

So here's last night's accomplishment. It's for the ceiling mirror position. (The "flyingFishTrap"?) I'll hang it about 10cm below the ceiling, and maybe throw some white Christmas lights up there.




That eats up all of the Auralex I originally had on hand. Rockwool remaining: 75%

Jury's still out on what to do behind the door. Meanwhile, today is superchunk day.


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #642384 - 31/07/08 02:35 AM
Quote ryan mead:

A visit from the king of studio renovation threads himself! Hi James!






Wow! That is some welcome! (And completely undeserved, I am a total and complete amateur struggling to complete his little hobbit hole!)

I have been following your thread, I have just had very little to offer in the way of advice, you are doing a great job on your own! I love the look of the traps, and I love your comedic writing style! Wanna give me hand with some jig saw work I have coming up???



Quote ryan mead:

I would like something that gets out of the way automatically when my wife opens the door so that she doesn't think I've gone into bar-the-door-shut, goddammit-I'm-creating-don't-bother-me mode just because I've put a bass trap in place.





Great one! Yeah, I feel your pain man! And you never liked her mother either, and that belt she was wearing last night made her butt look huge! How could you??? And now, you want to lock yourself up in your little kingdom and totally ignore her... etc... You are a cad, sir!

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!



Quote ryan mead:

On the basis of a few Studio SOS's I've read, part of me is predicting that the bass response will be more even with the door open anyway.






I actually did some testing in my CR, and found that it did indeed make a bit of a difference, but not much, and it took away some of the room symmetry as well.

The "automatic" bit is going to take a bit of work on your part... good luck! I am anxious to see what you come up with.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: Doublehelix]
      #642542 - 31/07/08 12:55 PM
Quote Doublehelix:


Wow! That is some welcome! (And completely undeserved, I am a total and complete amateur struggling to complete his little hobbit hole!)



Note I called you "king of studio renovation threads", not "king of studio renovation".

Quote Doublehelix:

I love your comedic writing style! Wanna give me hand with some jig saw work I have coming up???



Your comedic writing style could use a little work...

Quote Doublehelix:

Quote ryan mead:

I would like something that gets out of the way automatically when my wife opens the door so that she doesn't think I've gone into bar-the-door-shut, goddammit-I'm-creating-don't-bother-me mode just because I've put a bass trap in place.





Great one! Yeah, I feel your pain man! And you never liked her mother either, and that belt she was wearing last night made her butt look huge! How could you??? And now, you want to lock yourself up in your little kingdom and totally ignore her... etc... You are a cad, sir!

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!



You're on your own there, mate! I'm just trying to be sensitive, to prevent my sweet sensitive bride (can you tell we're newlyweds?) from feeling like this...

...which I suspect she would if it seemed to her that I'd braced the door shut behind me.

(But yeah her mom is a handful sometimes.)

Quote Doublehelix:

The "automatic" bit is going to take a bit of work on your part... good luck! I am anxious to see what you come up with.



No guarantees it'll work out that way though. The default plan is just a flat stationary 20cm-deep trap behind the door.

cheers
ryan


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
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Re: tuned traps now? new [Re: Ian Savage]
      #642553 - 31/07/08 01:25 PM
Quote Ian Savage:

A tuned-membrane trap won't take up much more space than a broadband bass trap (takes up less than one that goes appreciably low), they can't be that hard to build, as I made one once - hardest bit was getting it properly sealed.

Okay, tuned absorbtion needs a bit more design work, but it's nothing someone with Maths and Physics GCSEs couldn't handle.



Care to elaborate? What frequency were you after, what did you use for materials (plywood's easy to source; so are vinyl flooring and carpet), what were the final dimensions, and how did you end up sealing it (silicone)? Did you damp it on the inside?

Also, for the silent among you out there, anyone else with any experience building a panel (or Hemholz for that matter) trap?


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Ian Savage



Joined: 16/12/07
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #642589 - 31/07/08 03:49 PM
Right, have dug out my old design drawings! My memory's terrible, so I'll just quote verbatim from my scribbles:

For a diaphagmatic absorber, resonant frequency = 170 / sqrt(md), where m=the surface density in lb/sq ft, and d=the depth of the airspace in inches. I can't remember offhand exactly how putting rockwool or similar in the airspace affects the maths, but it obviously makes the thing more efficient. I believe I gave up on the diaphragmatic design in the end though, because if it's not TOTALLY sealed it causes more problems than it solves. And I couldn't get the bastard totally airtight.

For a perforated slat absorber, which is what I eventually ended up with, resonant frequency = 5.5 x sqrt(% perforation/(d x D)), where d = slat depth (m), D = cavity depth (m), and the % perforation for a slatted box can be worked out by (r/(w+r)) x 100%, where r=slat spacing and w=slat width.

What it looks like is in the bottom right-hand corner of this picture:


Basically the gap between each slat acts as a tuned Helmholtz resonator, sort of like blowing across the top of an empty bottle, with the airspace behind them (usually including some rockwool or similar, which broadens the peak of the absorbtion) acting as a 'spring' and soaking up some of the wave energy.

The trap I built was aiming for knocking out a standing wave at about 110Hz in a small room, so with the materials available I settled on using planks of wood 150mm wide by 38mm deep, and made the cavity 200mm deep (like yourself, I simply didn't have the room to go much deeper!). The slats were spaced 5mm apart, with the back 100mm of the cavity padded with Rockwool.

Plugging in the numbers, you get a resonant frequency of 5.5 x sqrt(3.2% / (0.038 x 0.2)), which gave me 111.5Hz. Sadly I didn't have the equipment to do objective measurements of the difference it made, but subjectively it had a massive effect on the booming at the low-ish end of the spectrum.

Give me half an hour or so and I'll see what can be done to attack 45Hz with common materials without making anything too massive! Obviously the thicker the slats and the deeper the cavity, the lower the resonance though.

I got a lot of my background from a BSc in Audio at the University of Salford, and then later found out that the lecturer in acoustics had leaned heavily on a book called 'The Master Handbook of Acoustics', by F. Alton Everest. I recommend it heartily, it'll be the best twenty quid you ever spend on acoustic treatment. As long as you don't mind working in imperial measurements, which do my fruit, hence the conversion to metric above.

Edited by Ian Savage (31/07/08 03:53 PM)


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: Ian Savage]
      #642695 - 31/07/08 11:00 PM
Quote Ian Savage:

the lecturer in acoustics had leaned heavily on a book called 'The Master Handbook of Acoustics', by F. Alton Everest. I recommend it heartily, it'll be the best twenty quid you ever spend on acoustic treatment.



Funny you should mention it-- I have the book right here! I bought it about two years ago on a trip back home, but haven't paid any attention to it until recently. (In a weird turn of dumb blind luck, I bought two then-unknown-to-me books on audio-- the other one was Bob Katz's book.) I put myself to sleep last night with the section on tuned traps and a couple glasses of red.

Quote Ian Savage:

I can't remember offhand exactly how putting rockwool or similar in the airspace affects the maths, but it obviously makes the thing more efficient.



Here's the part that scares me-- both Everest's book and Paul White's article say that putting rockwool in the airspace lowers the resonant freqency "somewhat", but they're both vague on that point. (I see experimentation and material waste ahead... )

Quote Ian Savage:


As long as you don't mind working in imperial measurements, which do my fruit, hence the conversion to metric above.



No worries there and no need to translate for me! As a Canadian I was brought up with imperial, and then forcefully converted to metric along with the rest of the country when I was a kid, so I'm comfortable with both, but imperial's in my soul. I'm living in metric land now, though, so I'm just rolling with it. I can't even find a ruler or tape measure with inches on it!

Anyways, please don't take it personally if I opt not to go for some kind of tuned trap-- it DOES sound like there are rather a lot of pitfalls there.

cheers
rd


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #643287 - 03/08/08 02:44 PM
Steady as she goes: the front right-hand floor corner trap in progress. (Wire mesh is nasty stuff and I'm going to avoid using it as far as possible.)




And the rear above-the-couch superchunk is finally taking shape:




Tomorrow looks like it's going to be hernia day: lifting this bad boy up on to the stand.


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #643414 - 04/08/08 04:21 AM
Here's the rear superchunk full of rockwool, ready to cap.



And here it is with the cap on. Note that I've only stained the leading edge, which we'll see when it's in this place. (I'm running out of both stain and patience.)



Et voila! It took two people to wrestle into position. That oughta take a bite out of my 45/90/135Hz mode...



Now on to the front superchunks, a little taller but a whole lot narrower.



...stay tuned...


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #645445 - 10/08/08 02:21 PM
Quote ryan mead:

...stay tuned...



Sorry, just realized how that sounded. No pun intended.

Well, I've decided to make the behind-the-door trap a broadband trap, hinged to the door. When the door is closed, the trap should sit like this:



And when it's open it should sit like this:



In both pics, the four-sided piece of plywood is the baseplate/top plate for the trap, showing the eventual vertical cross-section, and the yellow arrow shows where I'll hinge the trap to the door.

I considered making another 45-degree angle so that the distal face of the trap would sit flush against the wall when the door is closed, but decided against it because that would have cut down on the size of the trap considerably and moved it much closer to the wall. A blunt square distal end may be less elegant, but more effective!

I'll also mount four casters to the baseplate and put some kind of track in the ceiling, with a pin or roller on the trap that rides in the track so that it automatically moves into place when the door is closed. At least that's the plan.

You can also see a triangular offcut of wood in the corner of the room in both pictures that represents where I can stuff a bit more rockwool into the corner somehow (I'm thinking just sewn bags stuck into the corner) so that this thing behaves a little more like a proper superchunk.

Here is a little more evidence that I've actually started working on this trap:



If anyone sees anything amiss, please speak up! It's bedtime in Seoul so there is time for me to make refinements (or wholesale redesigns!) on the basis of your comments!

Meanwhile, I've made a stand for the whaleTrap:




There's some painfully obvious levelness issues, but I've tweaked the stand a bit to hopefully address them. And anyways I don't think the standing waves will give a damn if it's level or not.

I'm getting very close to being ready to convert my temporary woodworking shop back into a studio, and my wife is VERY ready to see all of the completed traps disappear from the living room! If the frequency response curve ends up looking anything like the one on the first page, I'm going to have a breakdown or something...


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
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what would you replace these vertical blinds with? new [Re: ryan mead]
      #645447 - 10/08/08 02:31 PM


It was suggested to me in an email awhile back (from the good folks at Ready Acoustics) that I replace the front blinds with some heavy and bulky curtains.

It sounds like a good plan, but it also sounds like another step towards converting my studio into a sauna.

Thoughts?


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
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Re: what would you replace these vertical blinds with? new [Re: ryan mead]
      #647413 - 16/08/08 03:54 PM
Quote ryan mead:

It was suggested to me in an email awhile back (from the good folks at Ready Acoustics) that I replace the front blinds with some heavy and bulky curtains.

It sounds like a good plan, but it also sounds like another step towards converting my studio into a sauna.

Thoughts?




Nobody then?

If you look at the graph on the first page of this thread, I think I've got obvious high-frequency issues. I've noticed that in some Studio SOS's they put up Auralex on the wall behind the speakers, and in others they don't. It's not a mirror point per se, so I'm not clear on how important this is.


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #647419 - 16/08/08 04:20 PM
Well, we're getting close.

There has been a lot of head-scratching, fussing, and material waste over the behind-the-door trap, and in the end it doesn't seem to have panned out so well. I haven't even tried to hinge it to the door yet, but it's far too heavy to be expected to behave properly when the door is opened and shut. Besides, I'm having a hard time tracking down the closet door mounting hardware that I thought would be suitable for a ceiling track. Koreans aren't into bifold closet doors, they're into standalone wardrobes.

For the time being I guess I'll just leave it flat against the wall when composing, arranging, and woolgathering, and shut the door and go into wendy-let-me-explain-something-to-you mode (seriously, she'll think it's because I don't want her to intrude, not because I'm trying to get rid of that 90Hz notch) when I'm finishing off a mix.

Anyways-- the transition from wood shop to music room is underway! Here are the back and front walls:




In the first picture, you can see the behind-the-door trap, slouching disappointedly against the wall. Asymmetry is somewhat tolerable at the rear of the room, right?

At this stage I stood at the mixing position and clapped my hands in front of my face. There was an awful ring, but I don't have any of the mirror point traps up yet so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it tonight.

I did try clapping again when the ceiling trap was leaning against one of the side walls, and the ring seemed to have subsided somewhat, so we'll see what tomorrow holds.



These lights originally came with this irritating switch, which I bypassed:

(before)



(after)



The first test of the room's new acoustics might come as early as tomorrow! I've still got my four RealTraps to play with to do some fine tuning, though I'm pretty sure one's going to wind up at my feet under the desk, where it made a huge improvement at the outset.


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #647491 - 17/08/08 02:37 AM
I've noted a problem already. The whaleTrap resonates at a really low frequency. (I noticed when I was sitting on the sofa with a beer, idly banging my head on it last night.) A nice long note like an acoustic bass.

I'm thinking it's because I mounted this cleat too close to the trap, pinning it to the wall, and perhaps coupling it to the ceiling panel (which also resonates). There's no need for the cleat to be touching the trap-- it's just for safety in case the trap decides to fall forwards-- so I'm going to move it forward until they're not touching, and hope this resonance goes away.



Meanwhile-- the sub showed up! I know I've been advised against it in this very thread, but I couldn't resist. I've got a choice between two ways of hooking it up:

1) via the crossover in the sub

This option would presumably split the signal between the sub and the K&H's optimally.

2) independently, via the presonus monitor controller

This option would have the advantage of making it easy to turn off the signal to the sub with the press of a button. I would then set the filter on the sub to match the low end of the K&H's as best I could. Jury's out on that one.



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Ian Savage



Joined: 16/12/07
Posts: 611
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #647510 - 17/08/08 09:19 AM
Seems to be coming along nicely man! Shame about the behind-the-door trap, but we lives and learns; as regards the sub, that's a tricky one. For optimum sound quality you really ought to be running the signals in and out of the subwoofer - but does the Presonus have a dedicated sub-out that'll have its own crossover?


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: Ian Savage]
      #647521 - 17/08/08 09:39 AM
Thanks, Ian.

Quote Ian Savage:

does the Presonus have a dedicated sub-out that'll have its own crossover?



It has something kind of like a separate sub out ("C" out can be toggled on and off, independently of A and B outs), but afaik with no crossover. If I go that route I'll try and match the low-pass on the back of the sub to the low end of the K&H's (which is about 60Hz). I think I'll run the K&H's through the sub's crossover to begin with, do some testing, and then try things the convenient but dangerous way, through the Presonus, and see how much worse the results are. Not quite sure how to set up a test for phasing problems at the low end, however, or if my ears are good enough to catch such problems myself.

Meanwhile I removed the cleat from in front of the whaleTrap and it still resonates like a timpani.


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
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Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #647604 - 17/08/08 03:29 PM
Ryan:

There never seems to be an end to the issues, is there? I keep running into them just when I think I am about done myself!

Regarding the window...

I ended up having to cover my CR window with a small bass trap, even though I was really looking forward to the natural light. It was a necessary evil in order to get the sound tamed down to where I am able to mix in the place. It really sucks, but once things get rolling here in the next month or so, I hope take it down during tracking, and then hang it back up during mixing.

That may end up backfiring on my since I need to be able to judge mic placements and choices, and if I compromise my acoustics during tracking, I may lose the ability to make those choices appropriately.

I bring this up for 2 reasons:

1) You might need to do what you need to do if you find you still have a big problem with the window. Sometimes, it is a difficult choice, but you have to be able to live with the consequences. I wasn't, so I reluctantly covered the window.

2) Your behind the door corner trap might need to be there for more than just mixing. It may become the "anytime I am in the studio" trap rather than the "mixing" trap.

Another option for your window: RPG makes something called a "ClearSorber" which can go over a window and still let light through. Max from this forum pointed it out to me as an option, but at the time it was a bit too pricey, and I needed to get something going ASAP. I might consider replacing my current trap with a ClearSorber someday. You might want to ask Max about it, I think he has some experience with them.


Regarding the behind-the-door trap: Bummer that your design didn't work out. Is there anyway you can make it lighter? Minimal framing and maybe make a trap-in-a-bag type of design to reduce the weight? Is the door solid or hollow? You could always get a more solid door and then get some heavy-duty hinges if need to. Otherwise, I would just go with the movable trap. Maybe put some casters on the bottom so that it will move easily out of the way? Also, consider a small chain and hook system so that when it place, it will not accidentally fall down and kill any small children or animals if anybody opens the door when it is in place!


Otherwise, it is looking nice, and coming right along! Keep it up man!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
Loc: USA
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #647608 - 17/08/08 03:35 PM
Crap! sorry! I forgot to comment on the subwoofer!

If you run it through the Presonus CS, the obvious advantage is the ability to bring it in and out of the mix for comparison purposes. The big disadvantage is the lack of a cross-over. (I know you already mentioned both issues, just re-iterating for completeness!).

My opinion is that you should not run the system without a crossover. Good filters will work (that is what a crossover is after all), and if you have them built-in to the sub, great. I would however consider having both the mid/highs and the sub on filters... HPF on the mid/highs and LPF on the sub. You will losing a lot of energy if you don't. Maybe you could invest in a nice stereo crossover, and use one side for the sub, and one side for the mid/highs???

Anyway, FWIW, that is what I would do, otherwise, I would use the crossover in the sub. For me personally, I would never just use the CS without some kind of filtering on both sets of speakers.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #649174 - 22/08/08 05:16 AM
James!

Belated thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I've been sidetracked by some problems with my new/used monitors, for which I've started another, very sad, thread.

about the window: I've sent RPG an email, but I'm so over budget at this point that I'm thinking of just replacing the vertical venetians with a duvet mounted on curtain rings. Then I could easily let some light in when I'm arranging, and close the curtain when I'm mixing. (I don't actually record that much.)

about the behind-the-door trap: Well, the casters part is working, so it is easy enough to roll it into place after closing the door. Over the next while it'll be one of the variables I test: door open, door shut and trap flat against the wall, door shut and trap pulled into place. I'll see how much difference it makes.

about the sub: There's this really harsh language in the owner's manual:



This seems like a really stupid way to configure a crossover to me. Who in the hell would want to dial in overlap or a gap? Moreover, the 80Hz point isn't even indicated on the crossover frequency knob. There doesn't seem to be much advantage to running the speakers through the sub; in fact the only effect seems to rob the speakers of their low end. Got any suggestions for a stereo crossover?

Here's how the ghetto looks at the moment:



cheerio
ryan


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
Loc: USA
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #649340 - 22/08/08 01:56 PM
Ryan... looks great, not too ghetto if you ask me!

Actually, overlapping filters are a common technique, but the technology is beyond by ability to describe.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #651848 - 31/08/08 01:21 AM
Well, I started testing again, and at first I was pretty depressed because I still had a big knife-slash at around 90Hz and a big ugly rolloff at the top end. Then I decided to take some advice from page 1 of this thread:

Quote young david:


If you haven't already done this, I'd start by experimenting a bit with moving the listening position a foot or two along the lengthwise dimension. Might help with the bump around 46 and your 90-100 dip.




Quote Jim Y:

Would it not be better to experiment with desk/speaker position before putting any traps in? - That way, changes for the best with these positions will be more apparent, and you can then position your traps to suit the room with all your equipment in place.




The following graph shows measurements taken with the mic at varying distances from the front wall.



Now I'm confused!! I get the smoothest low end when I position my head as close as possible to the middle of the room!! This so contravenes the conventional wisdom I've learned here that I'm almost afraid to post it.

I've done some other tweaks since then-- I have found that I get a smoother top end with the speakers out about 55cm from the front wall, and my body a little forward of the exact center of the room.

I've also done a little Paul-White-style crawling around and determined that the bass response is the least lumpy with the sub on the floor to the right of the right speaker, and slightly forwards of it. There was a phase issue, which you can see here: the top curve is without the sub, the middle curve is with the phase switch in the 0 position, and the bottom curve is with the phase switch in the 180 position.



I tried to move the sub as close to myself as possible but it doesn't seem possible to get it as close as the nearfields, so I think I'll just use it for fun, and make critical bass mixing decisions using headphones, or with the sub switched off.

I ended up not using a crossover at all. Subjectively, the information below 80Hz seems so much tighter and more accurate coming from the K&H's than from the sloppy Tannoy sub, so I just set the high pass for the sub to about 50Hz, to use the low-end response of the K&H's as a natural kind of crossover.

Despite the fact the room sounds a great deal tighter and less boomy now than it did at the outset, even with the sub, I'm kind of disappointed with how little the frequency response has changed-- and more and more confused by the results of tiny tweaks...

One more piece of advice I'm going to have to follow:

Quote young david:

Final tip would be once you've settled on the layout, print your room eq graph and stick it on the wall.




==rd==


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #689209 - 17/12/08 12:08 AM
I had a friend with a nice DSLR and wide-angle lens come over the other day, so thought I'd bump this thread with a couple vanity shots.



The only technical inaccuracy shown above is that I play the guitar facing the other way when recording, because it picks up less noise that way.

The astute of you might notice the ergonomically sad position of my MBP. Next time it's an iMac!

And here's our obliging photographer on the obligatory chill-out couch...



I'm pretty happy with how the room sounds. I don't think the frequency response tells the whole story, as the room subjectively is quite non-resonant without being oppressively anechoic, and I seem to be making good mixes. Here's hoping we don't get kicked out at the end of our lease!

A big THANK YOU to everyone who contributed to this thread!


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #689212 - 17/12/08 12:15 AM
Quote ryan mead:

I just set the high pass for the sub to about 50Hz



Oops, that would be "low pass"...


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #1018636 - 14/11/12 10:22 PM
Probably an infraction of the forum rules, but all of the homemade acoustic treatment in this thread is up for grabs, free, for anyone in (or willing to travel to) Seoul, South Korea.


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thefruitfarmer



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 1752
Loc: Kent UK
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: ryan mead]
      #1018681 - 15/11/12 09:54 AM
Great Thread.


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ryan mead



Joined: 19/06/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Seoul
Re: moving my studio to a smaller room new [Re: thefruitfarmer]
      #1023375 - 09/12/12 11:29 PM
Quote thefruitfarmer:

Great Thread.



Thanks! Sadly, only being bumped because I'm now dismantling the room in question...


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