Let me know when you have reverted to the old forum and I will start looking again.

The loss of the mics and miking section spells the end for me.

personally, I think the addition of TWO forums,


One probably called "Hardware", to encompass what were Mic, vintage, and DIY forums ought to do it....

it's not like any of them were SO busy as to drown the others.... and although I'm still in favour of it all being in one place.... on balance , it's probably most beneficial to compromise with those that feel otherwise.

of course, they're all still going to miss the point of encouraging more users to have input in to their discussions.... but then that's their loss i suppose... (which translates as a loss to the forum overall in my book.... )


as to completely going back to the old forum,...

I for one will be gone if that happens


(some may cheer at the prospect.... i suppose.... )


there are other possibilities.... a means to sort threads within the main forum, a means to clearly and easily identify threads , all would be very handy.... and some of it may be do-able within the confines of the existing software....


surely having 10000 people potentially view your question, and answer it , is better than having maybe 100???


i know a whole bunch of people that never use the other forums, their SOS shortcuts leads to just MRT (now R&P) and that might be more tempted to answer questions if they actually SAW them,.,...





Whoops.... Edit... to add... i actually meant to say.... and a second forum.... Mix review + soundfiles, all in one place......

Edited by Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris (21/07/11 10:04 AM)

Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

---

surely having 10000 people potentially view your question, and answer it , is better than having maybe 100???

---

Now that's a very good point, but I suspect it has two distinct answers, something to do with quantity versus quality!

By having a focussed forum, like Mics, it's more likely to attract people who have a special interest in this area and form a community of discussion which will lead to more penetrating exploration of some of the issues. If Mics is part of a broader forum, then a number of people interested in in-depth discussion have indicated they will leave, surely watering down the efficacy of the discussion.

Of course there's nothing to stop the 9,900 other people in your example visiting the Mic forum if they choose to do so.........

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz

Hi all,
I'm also in favour of bringing back some specialist sub forums - I agree that merging too many subjects together runs the risk of diluting what I see as the main strength of this forum, namely that it is populated by experienced folk that are willing and able to discuss specific issues, often in great depth. I think that having dedicated areas for these discussions probably encourages them to be started in the first place in many cases, and means that those who can best help out know where to look.

I don't think it's a bad idea to mix it up a bit, and e.g. the suggestion to combine electronic and studio-build DIY makes sense. I miss the Mics & technique forum myself, but I'd happily see it expanded to include other related topics as suggested if it meant that it regained its identity as a recognized area of importance to so much of what many of us do.

And - is there a way for the active topics view to be presented in the same way as the forum listings? i.e. with number of replies, higlighted if new replies, last poster etc.. That would make sense for me.

Quote Pyrotech:

---

Hi all,
I'm also in favour of bringing back some specialist sub forums - I agree that merging too many subjects together runs the risk of diluting what I see as the main strength of this forum, namely that it is populated by experienced folk that are willing and able to discuss specific issues, often in great depth.

---

I will toss in something on this topic as well. Something that got me started on this forum and encouraged me to stick around was the Linux Music forum, this was one of the few places I could find one dedicated to Linux. Since that time I have likely become one of the more knowledgeable people on this topic and have continued to check on Linux music for newcomers with questions, as I know a couple of others have as well (Hattip to Havoc for instance). But now that it has been merged with Atari and other OSes, dilluted down for lack of a better way of saying it, I haven't decided if I am going to keep checking it.

Really that only leaves the Live Sound forum that I participate in on a regular basis, with me ducking into Mac Music on occasion, but not very often. Given that and my general lack of free time these days, the thought has come up in my head to just move on and remove one more forum from my daily checking(I already trimmed down the number I check significantly recently). I am not trying to use this as a threat or anything, far from it, but more to give an example of what one regular contributor has going through his head at the reduction in topics.

On the topic of DIY and Vintage, personally I just can't see looking in Studio Acoustics for that, as someone that hasn't participated in those forums if I was looking for information on this topic(And I have considered diving in, but again a lack of time) it just isn't anywhere i would look, so I would say it would be much better to bring those two back as a single sub-forum dedicated to those topics instead of trying to merge them into Studio Acoustics myself.

On the topic of the theme.... the teal is MUCH better than the old coloring. Still not great, but honestly who ok'd the old coloring is my question? Improvements worth considering on the teal is to remove it from the background of the forum titles in the forum index, and if not remove it from the background of the new threads, at least tone it down some. The Bold lettering with the Red numbers indicating new posts is likely enough to communicate this, and if it isn't I would look first at examining the icons which were never really communicative to me, and introducing one for a new topic as well.

Hope it helps.

Seablade

Quote Bob Bickerton:

---

By having a focussed forum, like Mics, it's more likely to attract people who have a special interest in this area and form a community of discussion which will lead to more penetrating exploration of some of the issues. If Mics is part of a broader forum, then a number of people interested in in-depth discussion have indicated they will leave, surely watering down the efficacy of the discussion.

---

Thank you Bob, I missed this on my first read through when I replied, it would have been even better for me to quote for my post.

Seablade

Quote seablade:

---

I will toss in something on this topic as well. Something that got me started on this forum and encouraged me to stick around was the Linux Music forum, this was one of the few places I could find one dedicated to Linux. ... But now that it has been merged with Atari and other OSes, dilluted down for lack of a better way of saying it, I haven't decided if I am going to keep checking it.

---

Come on, be reasonable... the Linux and Atari forums were never a hive of activity, and now that they are merged, there is still not a great deal of new material, so it's unlikely that the Linux-only threads will be swamped by anything else. Diluted, well, fair point, but the decision to leave just because there are other threads in there seems a bit of an overreaction...

I guess you must really love Linux, huh?

--------------------
Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

Quote ataleoftwospoons:

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Quote seablade:

---

I will toss in something on this topic as well. Something that got me started on this forum and encouraged me to stick around was the Linux Music forum, this was one of the few places I could find one dedicated to Linux. ... But now that it has been merged with Atari and other OSes, dilluted down for lack of a better way of saying it, I haven't decided if I am going to keep checking it.

---

Come on, be reasonable... the Linux and Atari forums were never a hive of activity, and now that they are merged, there is still not a great deal of new material, so it's unlikely that the Linux-only threads will be swamped by anything else. Diluted, well, fair point, but the decision to leave just because there are other threads in there seems a bit of an overreaction...

I guess you must really love Linux, huh?

---

surely the same logic could be used to argue for a single sound on sound forum with no sub forums whatsoever, shirley?

--------------------
ohm's where the art is

Quote ataleoftwospoons:

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Quote seablade:

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I will toss in something on this topic as well. Something that got me started on this forum and encouraged me to stick around was the Linux Music forum, this was one of the few places I could find one dedicated to Linux. ... But now that it has been merged with Atari and other OSes, dilluted down for lack of a better way of saying it, I haven't decided if I am going to keep checking it.

---

Come on, be reasonable... the Linux and Atari forums were never a hive of activity, and now that they are merged, there is still not a great deal of new material, so it's unlikely that the Linux-only threads will be swamped by anything else. Diluted, well, fair point, but the decision to leave just because there are other threads in there seems a bit of an overreaction...

I guess you must really love Linux, huh?

---

yeah but this is a good example of why lumping things together can make little sense

what have atari and linux got in common? nothing

one's a (sorry atari fans) dead platform and the other isn't

what might an atari user and a linux user share in common? nothing

--------------------
Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote zenguitar:

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But for you Microphone & Mic Techniques advocates, can I ask you all a straight question. Is there anything you feel that would be a natural compliment to that so we can broaden it out a little and maybe enhance it, rather than leave you with the feeling it is lost? I was wondering whether something along the lines of 'Microphones, Techniques, & Tracking' might be practical, so we could include DI's, Pre-Amps, Monitor mixes, general session management, and so on. Basically, everything before you hit the DAW/recorder.

---

Now that I like the sound of Andy - we get LOADS of preamp queries, and I've always found it odd that they currently go in the main 'Recording & Production' forum when mic queries are elsewhere. If we expanded the old Mics forum to include DIs, preamps and so on this would attact all the old specialists but a lot more people too


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

analogue in?

--------------------
ohm's where the art is

Thank you for changing the colour scheme. This is much easier on the eyes.

I am not a frequent visitor, however I have to agree that some of the form merging is questionable. I think the specialists have their point.

Anyway, thanks again, its much more eye-worthy now!

--------------------
Robin
NorthWood MediaWorks - Visit the Forest

So many good points on here... The new colour scheme is good, much easier to look at, and much more 2011 "cool" as opposed to 2005 "PC grey". The new forum structure? 3 parts good, 7 parts bad. By trying to make it more inclusive and involving (and possibly less cliquey) you are in danger of stripping the forums of it's greatest asset - speciality. Yes, we still have PC, Mac, Business, Guitar etc... and a couple of mergers make sense but no Newbie? Or Mastering? Or Mics? Or somewhere for us all to get feedback on our efforts? Bob said it best:

Quote Bob Bickerton:

---

By having a focussed forum, like Mics, it's more likely to attract people who have a special interest in this area and form a community of discussion which will lead to more penetrating exploration of some of the issues. If Mics is part of a broader forum, then a number of people interested in in-depth discussion have indicated they will leave, surely watering down the efficacy of the discussion.

---

You can apply this to nearly all the boards that got pulled. Maybe you got some internet based statistics reason for cutting them, like the inactivity of some meant they were getting ignored by search engines so you weren't hitting traffic targets or something (stabbing in the dark here), but these specialist boards were what made SOS so valuable. I just cant think why else such goldmines of hardcore knowledge would get taken down.

The loss of the Newbie board is questionable too. 1) It was a great place for people of all levels to go ask noob questions without being afraid of getting ripped (like you see on other forums), and 2) it kept the broad remit MRT board (and other boards) uncluttered from the usual oft repeated but necessary questions that.

Especially sad is the lack of a board where users can post their work as this takes away a valuable critique resource. Feedback on creative/engineering efforts is vital for individual improvement, and SOS taking this space away reflects negatively on you. It's a bit like saying "We don't really care what you do with the music knowledge we give you, shut up and give us your money and attention". Especially disappointing when it was effectively a links board, and took up no extra bandwidth by hosting files or any media.

Also, I feel covering so many areas in one place - Recording and Production - will just become a massively incoherent, disjointed mess very quickly.

Sorry guys, I love the SOS brand (and I dont care if I look like a kiss arse by saying so) but the new forum is a big fat fail for me

--------------------
www.loadedaudio.com - Audio Mastering and home of the Mix Fix
www.audioslap.com - Audio News, Reviews and Interviews

Quote ataleoftwospoons:

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Come on, be reasonable... the Linux and Atari forums were never a hive of activity, and now that they are merged, there is still not a great deal of new material, so it's unlikely that the Linux-only threads will be swamped by anything else. Diluted, well, fair point, but the decision to leave just because there are other threads in there seems a bit of an overreaction...

---

And with that last line you did exactly what I said NOT to do, and took it as a threat. That was not the intention, the intention was me explaining my thought process as a forum member, explaining why the sub-forums drew me to the forum in the first place, and why the removal of them is a reason I may decide to leave.

My leaving is something I have been considering for a while, most people in the Live Sound forum have probably noticed I don't post as much anymore. The major reason is because I just work to much and don't have a lot of time to keep up with the forum, the removal of the sub-forum was another reason I may decide to leave(Not a massively huge would leave one way or the other because of it, more a strong nudge), nothing more. If I do leave it will hardly be just because that happened, but because of many reasons of which that is merely one.

EDIT: For the record I can completely understand that the thought of looking at a forum and saying "Oh that doesn't get any hits" and merging it. I can understand the desire to merge it, but my question is, what is the benefit of merging it? I can't think of a single benefit in terms of 'more people see it' which is the normal reason, because frankly as was mentioned earlier more people may see it, but the chances of more people seeing it that understand the question and can help, is much less, so the net benefit is minor in that regards. I suspect the benefit in this case is more, it makes it easier on the mods, and as someone that spent years moderating forums(Specifically the AV Editing forum of a larger forum) I can completely understand this, as I left those forums not to long ago specifically because I didn't have time to keep it up, and finding someone that has both the time and the knowledge is tough for something like that situation, and for this situation.

This becomes especially obvious when I know for a fact in the past I had reported several posts as SPAM in the Linux forum and they never got addressed by any moderator, in fact at least one of them is still present in the new 'Other OS' topic still...

<a href="/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=866675&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&am p;o=365&fpart=1#866675" target="_blank">http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=866675&a mp;page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=1#866675</a>

Time spent in moderation is important, but I have to wonder if that is really the problem when you can have moderation issues pointed out for you and nothing happens.

Quote:

---

I guess you must really love Linux, huh?

---

I do in fact. I despise how many problems Windows tends to give, both to myself int hat I have to spend hours tweaking it, and to others that I have to spend hours repairing it. I feel to locked in to 'The Apple Way' with Mac OS in many regards after having run Linux for some time before moving to Apple. So my alternative is to spend hours tweaking and maintaining a windows box, spend what is for me a few hours at most setting up a Linux box, or feel constrained by OS X. Right now OS X was winning for other reasons, but those reasons are rapidly fading, both due to Apple's fault, as well as some new developments on Linux in the past few years, that mean I will probably switch back to Linux for my full time production work.

Ok tangent aside hopefully that clarified things for you;)

Seablade

Quote Martin Walker:

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If we expanded the old Mics forum to include DIs, preamps and so on this would attact all the old specialists but a lot more people too Martin

---

Please don't take this the wrong way, it's an observation, not a criticism.............

Are some of these changes driven by wanting MORE people to participate? Are SOS concerned that a specialist forum does not attract many people?

If so my response would be to say these forums should be driven by quality not quantity, especially the specialist ones.

It's OK to have boutique forums, where smaller numbers of people are having more in depth discussion, it's a service to the industry and a sign that SOS has a professional approach to these things.

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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Please don't take this the wrong way, it's an observation, not a criticism.............

Are some of these changes driven by wanting MORE people to participate? Are SOS concerned that a specialist forum does not attract many people?

---

Don't worry Bob, it's a fair question. It's one of those 'what end of the telescope are you looking through' questions. I would answer that the numbers of viewers/participants is secondary, the two things that matter most are the sense of community and the sharing of knowledge, experience, and opinions.

Every member of the forums has a unique experience, depending on which forums they visit, how often they visit, and how often they post. The forum Admins, and Moderators like myself, had to visit a lot of individual forums just to do the job. And one of the things we all picked up was that there were a lot of members that had a lot of interests in common but never saw each other because they posted in different forums. Even though they were notionally 'dedicated' forums, the discussions regularly expanded into areas more appropriate for other parts of the forum. And to be fair, it wasn't just the Moderators who noticed this; in the recent discussions a number of members have spoken up and said they prefer the new broader forum topics. Yes, the favourable posts are outnumbered by the complaints, but people tend not to shout about being happy with things whereas people who are unhappy are prepared to speak out. But you don't write off legitimate complaints on those grounds, you listen and learn, which is what we are trying to do here.

What I can assure you is that when the changes were discussed in the Moderator's forum numbers were not an issue. Quantity never entered the discussions, it was all about quality. The discussions weren't about the numbers of visitors to each forum, but about how we could pull them together so more people would contribute and/or learn. To use Microphones and Mic Techniques as an example, the feeling was that it was too important to the overall process of recording for it to be hidden away in a corner as a specialist interest, and that seemed to be supported by the number of questions about mics that appeared in other parts of the forum.

But what we missed, and has been pointed out to us, is how that knowledge would be diluted in such a broad new forum. People unable to see the wood for the trees. And that is why I was asking about a possible middle ground, a forum that is broader than mics and micing, but still focused.

Quote:

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It's OK to have boutique forums, where smaller numbers of people are having more in depth discussion, it's a service to the industry and a sign that SOS has a professional approach to these things.

---

I agree entirely, that is why I joined the forums and why, when invited, I accepted the invitation to become a Moderator. Our aim was to build on that, and spread it wider. And that is why we are so keen to listen to what everyone has to say and learn from our members.

So please, keep your ideas and opinions coming Bob.

Andy

--------------------
When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Quote zenguitar:

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The forum Admins, and Moderators like myself, had to visit a lot of individual forums just to do the job. And one of the things we all picked up was that there were a lot of members that had a lot of interests in common but never saw each other because they posted in different forums.

---

Exactly! the changes are not simply about herding people to fewer but larger forums, but are attempting to bring more expertise into each particular forum so that each poster gets more feedback and relevant advice.

Mics and mic Preamps are two subjects that are so obviously connected, yet questions about them previously invariably appeared in different forums.

Studio DIY & Electronics are two more subjects that should attract musicians with similar interests, yet they also got split into two different forums.

What we're attempting to do here is to have a smaller number of focused forums that each attract a larger number of like-minded musicians so that they all gain more active posters plus a stronger identity and sense of community.

And I sense that given all the feedback we're already getting, the community is now starting to pull together towards a common goal


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Quote Martin Walker:

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Mics and mic Preamps are two subjects that are so obviously connected, yet questions about them previously invariably appeared in different forums.

Studio DIY & Electronics are two more subjects that should attract musicians with similar interests, yet they also got split into two different forums.

---

I've personally never been against a re-organisation per se, it's just the present re-organisation. For instance, if they'd created a forum called Mics & Preamps and a second called Studio DIY & Electronics I think you would have encountered very little dissent.

CC

--------------------
Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Briefly, it was better the old way with many individual specialist forums. The more things can be modified so it resembles the structure of the old forums, the better.

Peace out.

In so many ways it has been the forum software that has proved incapable of the desired evolutionary leap.
I like the latest colours and the addition of the site design feedback threads was a wise move. It would be a terrible shame to lose some of the longstanding expert members over this re-design.
My prediction is that once the 'design by committee'chaos is done, the SoS forums will be even better than before.
It must be so!

--------------------
.. is this thing on?

Quote zenguitar:

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... the Vintage forum used to get a lot of posts about maintenance, repair, and modifying/upgrading equipment to work hand in hand with more modern set-ups.

Before the changes I used to visit all three forums daily, they were among my favourites because of the community feeling there. So could I ask if the members who especially miss those forums would comment here on whether a combined Studio & vintage DIY & Maintenance forum would be a reasonable compromise? Keep the nuts & bolts stuff there and the Keyboards & Synthesis forum would be a natural home for discussions on the actual noises and usability?

And I'll also take this chance to put up my hand and say that I have been convinced by the Microphone & Mic Techniques advocates too. It wasn't a forum I used myself and when we discussed the changes my instinct was that there was a resource that many members missed out on. But since the changes I've noticed that some of the most vehement opponents have been members who I've rarely or never seen in other parts of the forum but who have hundreds of posts to their name.

---

wot 'e said..

I like the idea of a "hands-on-hardware" (broad concept - DIY, repairs, electronics, vintage etc) category, kept distinct from "What monitors should I buy"-type questions...

And I agree, the community is what keeps you coming back.

--------------------
Adam Inglis
A Disco Ate My BABY!

Quote zenguitar:

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The forum Admins, and Moderators like myself, had to visit a lot of individual forums just to do the job.

---

I can imagine this might be cumbersome, but I'm not sure there's much anyone could do about it - apart from culling the number of individual forums, of course. Life would get easier for the mods, but a great deal more difficult for the posters. Who, or what, is more important? If the forums are considered part of SOS' business model, I think the answer is pretty obvious.

Quote zenguitar:

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And one of the things we all picked up was that there were a lot of members that had a lot of interests in common but never saw each other because they posted in different forums. Even though they were notionally 'dedicated' forums, the discussions regularly expanded into areas more appropriate for other parts of the forum.

---

Therein lies the problem. From your post I get a sense that SOS has begun to think on our behalf and wants to decide what's good for us, i.e. when and where to post. However, I doubt posters are in need of social engineering - if we want to learn about a certain subject, we will prove capable of clicking our way through to it.

It will also never be possible to enforce total discipline. People will, on occasion, post in the 'wrong' forum, for all sorts of reasons. It could be out of ignorance, or sheer laziness. The more dynamic a forum is, the more mistakes are going to happen, too. That's the price you have to pay for being successful. A forum entirely free of human error and transgressions would be a dead forum, as nobody would feel safe to post, ever.

A 'nanny forum' would only be frequented by beginners or by people who don't know any better. Is this what SOS wants?

Quote zenguitar:

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But you don't write off legitimate complaints on those grounds, you listen and learn, which is what we are trying to do here.

---

Cool. There can never be enough dialogue.

Personally, I'd be interested in seeing more specialised forums, rather than less. How about a composer's forum? I imagine it would be really interesting to talk about different approaches to composition, from classical to rap. How does one deal with writer's block, for example? What are new/unusual ways of looking at the creative process? I think such a forum could help with lifting SOS above the rest.

Heh!
Re "uncomfortable" forums, some years ago I posted for help on a forum and used the term "BT modem".

I was severely reprimanded and told that they did not approve of such contractions because it made things hard for persons of other cultures and languages!

I pointed our that "BT" was not a contraction but a valid trade name used by the company FORMALLY known as British Telecom.
Then I told them to go forth and multilpy, themselves.

And no, I don't want a nanny forum. I am of an age and condition now that I make a bloody fool of myself virtually daily in real as well as forum life!

Dave.

Quote:

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surely having 10000 people potentially view your question, and answer it , is better than having maybe 100???

---

Try reversing that line of thinking.

Suppose I know I'm interested in a few areas (say, mics and live sound) but not others (say, mastering). Every couple of days, I can select a sub-forum dedicated to those subjects and be presented with maybe a dozen threads with new content which are likely to be of interest. I can quickly and easily look for what interests me, pick up tips from the pros, and (sometimes) answer other people's questions.

Now suppose everything is slung into one uber-forum that contains everything. After a couple of days, I look on the forum, and I've got three pages of threads with new content. Most of these threads are on subjects which I'm not interested in. It often isn't clear from the title whether it's relevant to me or not, so I'll either waste time opening irrelevant threads, or I'll miss threads which *are* relevant but haven't been given an intelligent title.

I strongly suspect that every single person involved in the forum change is either too young or too computer-unsavvy to have seen or heard of Usenet, way back in the day. The Usenet newsgroups that survived were *ALWAYS* the ones that went very, very specific. The ones that died were the ones that tried to be too broad, and your signal-to-noise ratio approached zero. Those that can't remember the past (or can't be arsed to ask) are doomed to repeat it...

I doubt anyone will miss me fading away. But they'll miss Bob and Seablade's inputs on the Live forum.

Quote grab:

---

I strongly suspect that every single person involved in the forum change is either too young or too computer-unsavvy to have seen or heard of Usenet, way back in the day. The Usenet newsgroups that survived were *ALWAYS* the ones that went very, very specific. The ones that died were the ones that tried to be too broad, and your signal-to-noise ratio approached zero. Those that can't remember the past (or can't be arsed to ask) are doomed to repeat it...

---

I remember USENET and you're absolutely correct.

--------------------
Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

I like the new colour scheme.

Unfortunately pretty much all the other changes have affected me in a negative way.

Two off the forums I came here specifically to view have now been lost in other far more busy forums. In fact the Recording and Production forum which has swallowed them up has so many sticky threads currently that occupy all of the first page and then some. That's not exactly user friendly.

It would have been nice if at the same time you had addressed some of the longer-standing issues of the forum.

There is still no breadcrumb trail at the end of threads. I don't know about other people but when I reach the end of a thread I either want to naviagate back to the sub-forum that it's in or to the main forum page. It would be nice if the links to do this were at the end of the thread and didn't require to scroll back up to the top of the page.

Also there still doesn't appear to be any way of jumping directly to the first unread post in a thread.

All the other forums I use have these functions. Why can't SOS?

--------------------
RockinRollin' VampireMan

Quote jellyjim:

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Quote grab:

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I strongly suspect that every single person involved in the forum change is either too young or too computer-unsavvy to have seen or heard of Usenet, way back in the day. The Usenet newsgroups that survived were *ALWAYS* the ones that went very, very specific. The ones that died were the ones that tried to be too broad, and your signal-to-noise ratio approached zero. Those that can't remember the past (or can't be arsed to ask) are doomed to repeat it...

---

I remember USENET and you're absolutely correct.

---

Remember?

I'm still subscribed to 4 specialist groups, and 11 email lists! Lots of low noise info

P.S.
... and not a google in sight.

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Another thought in support of more focussed forums.

I'll visit the site a couple of times a day (more at present!). But sometimes I'll be short of time and I might only respond to an urgent cry for help or something I'm particularly interested in. I'll leave other threads until I've more time.

What I'm finding with the new R&P super forum is that threads are dropping off the first page more quickly, it's harder to review recent threads. In The old Mics forum there was less activity, and so threads would hang around longer. I might go back to a thread a week later because I've had a further thought on something.

So it's this sense of focus which has been lost.........

Take with a pinch of salt that I probably take a dinosauric approach to reading threads. I'll open up each forum and settle in for a read, rather than use search engines or recent activity facilities.......

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote Tui:

---

Quote zenguitar:

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The forum Admins, and Moderators like myself, had to visit a lot of individual forums just to do the job.

---

I can imagine this might be cumbersome, but I'm not sure there's much anyone could do about it - apart from culling the number of individual forums, of course. Life would get easier for the mods, but a great deal more difficult for the posters. Who, or what, is more important? If the forums are considered part of SOS' business model, I think the answer is pretty obvious.

---

My sentence right after where you ended my quote shows that isn't true. There was no suggestion that visiting many forums was cumbersome, and you even went on to quote me to confirm that.

Quote Tui:

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Quote zenguitar:

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And one of the things we all picked up was that there were a lot of members that had a lot of interests in common but never saw each other because they posted in different forums. Even though they were notionally 'dedicated' forums, the discussions regularly expanded into areas more appropriate for other parts of the forum.

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Therein lies the problem. From your post I get a sense that SOS has begun to think on our behalf and wants to decide what's good for us, i.e. when and where to post. However, I doubt posters are in need of social engineering - if we want to learn about a certain subject, we will prove capable of clicking our way through to it.

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And where, exactly, do you get that impression? It's easy to come with a line like, '... that SOS has begun to think on our behalf and wants to decide what's good for us...', but there is nothing to support that. The majority of the Mods here are not employees of SOS, they were members before they were Moderators, they mainly contribute as members, and they give their time freely to help administrate the forums they use themselves.

There is no Social Engineering agenda here. And no aim to produce a 'nanny forum'. Just the desire to make the forum work better for everyone. Which is why we made the changes initially, and why we are here now unpaid, often in the early hours of the morning when we should be in bed, or taking time out of earning a living, asking for feedback to help us get it right when it is clear that those changes haven't worked in the way we hoped.

Quote Tui:

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Quote zenguitar:

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But you don't write off legitimate complaints on those grounds, you listen and learn, which is what we are trying to do here.

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Cool. There can never be enough dialogue.

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Agreed

Quote Tui:

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Personally, I'd be interested in seeing more specialised forums, rather than less. How about a composer's forum? I imagine it would be really interesting to talk about different approaches to composition, from classical to rap. How does one deal with writer's block, for example? What are new/unusual ways of looking at the creative process? I think such a forum could help with lifting SOS above the rest.

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A composer's forum? Well, there was a music theory forum before which covered all of those things...

... see what we meant when we said that the problem with too many forums was that a lot of members missed out useful information and conversations?

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

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personally, I think the addition of TWO forums,

One probably called "Hardware", to encompass what were Mic, vintage, and DIY forums ought to do it....

and a second forum.... Mix review + soundfiles, all in one place......

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This sounds like a perfectly sensible compromise to me. Otherwise I much prefer the new layout, especially since the colour has been toned down.

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Not much in life worth running for. Or from.

Maybe it's because of the way that I use/access the Forums, but I find the new arrangement allows me to get 'in and out' quite quickly if there's nothing that interests me on that occasion.

The highlights show me the topics that have new posts since I last looked; a quick scan of the subjects lets me see if any is of interest. I recognise that there are some forums I never visit so I'm only looking at four or five topic headings.

I guess some of the concern and discussion is actually about the constituency that the Magazine and forum is seeking to serve. Is it professionals, hobbyists or both and the great range of people like me somewhere between those two poles? It it is "all of the above" then meeting those very different wants is a huge challenge.

My observation is that most of the serious concerns about the new format have come from those I deem professionals - the people whose postings I always read carefully 'cos they clearly know what they're talking about. I was initially astounded at the strength of feeling about the changes expressed by some of these pros.

That all said, whilst I can live with the changes - esp since the colour saturation control has been wound back a few notches - if pushed I'd like to see Newbies return as well as [slightly more granularity in MRT (or whatever its new name is). Mics and Miking were one of my regular haunts and I like the idea of a topic which is 'front-end' biased.

Speaking personally I can live without designated User Reviews and "Listen to My Mix" sections, but others disagree so that's fine.

... and again... high fives to Jenny for the way that she's dealt with the firestorm that she's had to handle in the past week. Having had that sort of role myself I fear my patience would have worn much thinner much quicker and much more vituperatively!

I wish the Mods and management well in sorting out the plethora of comments and suggestions!

Mike

Quote Mike Stranks:

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The highlights show me the topics that have new posts since I last looked;

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I assume you're looking into each sub-forum separately to do this, Mike? This doesn't happen in 'Today's Active Topics', unless there's a trick I'm not aware of?

This is why I'm so upset about the change to 'Today's Active Topics', since I now haven't a clue as to which posts have been replied to in that list. I can only find out by going into each sub-forum separately, which I'm simply not going to do - life's too short.

The irony is, if SOS choose to increase the number of sub-fora, along with the weight of feeling, I'll have even MORE clicking around just to see anything of interest to me. At that point I'm going to simply play lucky dip, so no doubt I'm going to miss a lot.

I agree with your comments about Jenny. I have worked for many years on an IT helpdesk and I know how such things can be. Fair play to her - it's not an easy job and I think she's shown commendable restraint and patience.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote zenguitar:

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It's easy to come with a line like, '... that SOS has begun to think on our behalf and wants to decide what's good for us...', but there is nothing to support that. The majority of the Mods here are not employees of SOS, they were members before they were Moderators, they mainly contribute as members, and they give their time freely to help administrate the forums they use themselves.

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Sure, I know. I've raised the issue with Ian a while ago and suggested to actually employ full-time mods, as your job requires a fair amount of effort to do it justice. Budget constraints seem to play a big role here, though.

With respect to "thinking one our behalf", I do realise that this would not be a conscious decision on the part of SOS, but perhaps something that could slip into the decision making process undetected. Dumbing down is an unfortunate reality in most aspects of public life. From computer operating systems to art and political discourse, it now seems fashionable to deem less choice and inferior quality a good thing. If on one day we have dedicated forums for microphone techniques, DIY and user reviews, but the next day we don't, we have been subject to a process of dumbing down, no matter how you choose to look at it.

Quote zenguitar:

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A composer's forum? Well, there was a music theory forum before which covered all of those things...

... see what we meant when we said that the problem with too many forums was that a lot of members missed out useful information and conversations?

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Yes and no. When a forum is labelled "music theory", I'd expect to see posts about chord changes, scales and notation. These are certainly important subjects, but I personally wouldn't gravitate towards them as I just about remember enough theory from my BA studies in classical music to get myself into trouble.

I was more thinking about a forum for discussing the creative process of writing, perhaps with historic references thrown in for good measure. If one could also post little audio clips to further explain one's points, that would be the icing on the cake.

Obviously, music theory, composition and audio production are all related - that doesn't mean to say, however, that they should be lumped into the same forum.

Cheers.

The point I was making about the moderation team was to highlight that we are drawn from the membership, are active across a number of forums and contribute our experience and opinions in the same way as everyone else. It wasn't a complaint about the work involved.

And the reason for that was a number of people have implied, or stated, that the changes to the forum were driven by commercial decisions. That was never the case. The discussions leading up to the forum re-organisation went on for many weeks, and many of us involved have repeated, the issue was to broaden access to the knowledge within the forums.

And I would refute that there is any sense of dumbing down in the changes. Dumbing down is about removing knowledge. The changes removed no content, and were aimed at improving access to the knowledge of the forums and increasing that communal knowledge by broadening the discussions.

The Music Theory forum did carry the kinds of discussion about songwriting you were talking about. And that is why I used it as an example, despite your interest in it's content you didn't use it. But you ask for an alternative Songwriters forum as well. And that gets to the root of the problem, it is always possible to make a case for another forum, and another, and another, and so on. Until you have a proliferation of specialist forums. The case for each forum is perfectly reasonable, but the net result is an unwieldy forum that is hard to navigate and seen as unwelcoming.

At some point you have to decide what level you stop specialising. And I agree that with hindsight some of the new forums are a little too broad. But that's why we are actively seeking suggestions about how we can put that right.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Thank you Zenguitar, your post is most reassuring.

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.. is this thing on?

Quote The Elf:

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Quote Mike Stranks:

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The highlights show me the topics that have new posts since I last looked;

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I assume you're looking into each sub-forum separately to do this, Mike?

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Yup!

OK, my two pence.
I am a staunch SOS loyalist. However, my SOS forum usage has slowed in recent months as I have been spending a lot more time on GS, John Sayers and the Womb.

First point is to restate that SOS will always be unique because of the quality of advice in print and online (in addition to the staff I am looking at you Desmond, Narcoman and Zenguitar). SOS is unique and hence should not have to compete with (to put it bluntly) GS.

Secondly I understand the rationale behind the changes to the subfora but I think you have failed to address the structural weakness - the generic nature of the subfora is not playing to the strengths of SOS.

What you could have won:
-Studio SOS subforum - with all the DIY, acoustics etc. The current studio design has such low traffic and limited scope that it is a distant third behind GS and JS.
-Mix rescue - with all the mix reviews and mix related questions. This would feel like an evolution in support of Senior's excellent work - and be up against the Womb - not in direct competition with GS.
-Losing the live section - 9 out of 10 questions are the same as those found in R&P
-Lose the synth section - one post a day does not a sub forum make

...someone must have proposed Mix rescue and Studio SOS subfora - if not I fully expect in the post when it happens!

Personally, I find the blue/grey colour scheme very hard on the eyes - or too soft, maybe is what I mean, as I strain to see it. A choice would be good. I reckon many of us lack big glossy screens and good vision.

Rec & Prod is much, much too broad. It's so confused in there I can't find anything. Either split it as others have already mentioned into categories already suggested - or provide some kind of tagging option so people can choose to view or ignore some. There's bound to be a greater amount of activity in what is a section with a wide capture and that makes keeping up to it and searching through it more difficult.

Just my 2p.

Quote zenguitar:

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And I would refute that there is any sense of dumbing down in the changes. Dumbing down is about removing knowledge.

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This is, however, what effectively did happen. Some posters pointed out earlier that searching in Recording & Production for "Focusrite", for example, brings up 34 different threads, none of which contain a single user review. Similarly with "Roland", 27 results, no reviews.
A while ago, I contributed to a thread, reviewing the RD-700SX stage piano. When I now search in all forums in subject and body for "RD-700SX", I am presented with one result, a thread titled "Stupid bonkers Mainstage behaviour". To all intents and purposes, my review of the RD-700SX has disappeared into the ether.

Quote zenguitar:

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The Music Theory forum did carry the kinds of discussion about songwriting you were talking about. And that is why I used it as an example, despite your interest in it's content you didn't use it. But you ask for an alternative Songwriters forum as well.

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No I don't. A songwriter may always be a composer, but a composer is not necessarily a songwriter. Personally, I don't write songs but instrumental music for radio, film and solo piano. I think a dedicated forum for composers could be of interest to people who currently may not post at SOS at all, such as composers of contemporary classical, jazz and big-band music. I believe there's a whole target group SOS currently doesn't cater for - musicians who's work is not directed at the pop and dance market.

Perhaps there were indeed discussions in Music Theory I might have found interesting, alas, that forum is now gone too.

Quote zenguitar:

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And I would refute that there is any sense of dumbing down in the changes. Dumbing down is about removing knowledge. The changes removed no content, and were aimed at improving access to the knowledge of the forums and increasing that communal knowledge by broadening the discussions.

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I for one now accept that the changes were not commercially driven, I said earlier on that I didn't believe in conspiracy theories.

I also accept that the mods/SOS intentions were positive in intention, but the debate here has shown that there are different views on whether the outcomes are positive.

In terms of content, the forums have not been dumbed down. BUT if subscribers with specialist interests jump ship and no longer contribute, or if debates do not have the same efficacy because threads get buried or are harder to find, then the end result is a dumbing down of future content - that was what I was trying to say earlier.

Bob

(P.S. apologies for not quoting your entire post)

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www.bickerton.co.nz