Seems to work perfectly here..?

However, what was the rationale again for allocating 1/3rd of screen real estate to grey borders?

Sad to see that microphone and mic. technique postings have dropped to almost zero since the changes.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote John Willett:

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Sad to see that microphone and mic. technique postings have dropped to almost zero since the changes.

---

... but as a regular 'dipper' into the "Mics" forum in the past I seem to recall that there would be no new posts for some time and then a flurry of responses to a specific question.

However, I would like to see "Mics" (in some form) and "Newbies" make a comback.

Our perceptions are interesting... f'r instance I'd say that "Live Sound" has dropped-off since the changes... bur then it IS the holiday season so...

Quote zenguitar:

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Quote The Elf:

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Can I just add that I don't like the new quotation separators?

I'm finding it hard to differentiate a quote from the new text. Didn't it used to be in a shaded box? That was much easier to see.

Not a big deal, but a minor irritation.

---

Hi Elf, I've seen what you mean. If it's any consolation it's nothing to do with the recent changes and it has happened on occasion on and off for a long time. Usually it happens when the quoted post is edited and the end quote tags are mislaid by the new poster.

---

Ah, thanks for that Andy. I'm on my laptop at the moment and it actually looks fine here (proper bordered, shaded box) in Firefox. Must just be the Low-IQ version of IE back in the office!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote Mike Stranks:

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Quote John Willett:

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Sad to see that microphone and mic. technique postings have dropped to almost zero since the changes.

---

... but as a regular 'dipper' into the "Mics" forum in the past I seem to recall that there would be no new posts for some time and then a flurry of responses to a specific question.

However, I would like to see "Mics" (in some form) and "Newbies" make a comback.

Our perceptions are interesting... f'r instance I'd say that "Live Sound" has dropped-off since the changes... bur then it IS the holiday season so...

---

There was normally something posted every day in the Mic. Forum - yes, less traffic than the main forum, but normally chugging along nicely.

The main forum also seems quieter - I would expect at least double the traffic in the combined forum.

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Err, don't know if we are still supposed to speak?
Well anyway FWIW: My MO was, straight into Noobs then probably gits and amps (why is that still there?) then DIY and then (because it is hardware!) mic and pre amps.

But if I was at a loose end or feeling a bit middling I was very catholic in my dippings in.

I always felt SoS was somewhat better structured than studio-central, now they have that baton.

Dave.

Well, I'm trying to use the site as it is but believe me I'm really struggling. Either traffic has dropped or I'm failing to see a lot of stuff I usually like to look at

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Quote Folderol:

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Well, I'm trying to use the site as it is but believe me I'm really struggling. Either traffic has dropped or I'm failing to see a lot of stuff I usually like to look at

---

I really think traffic has dropped since the change.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

SOS reduces number of forums > traffic goes down. Hardly surprising.

Yes, looks like there's less happening. A week or two down the track I'm getting tired of wading through "May I introduce myself" threads, to identify threads which are interesting or to which I feel I can make a contribution. It's become mildly entertaining banter, rather than in depth discussion.

It's not rocket science to analyse the responses, which seem to be very clear in some respects.

When can we expect a decision?

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Hi All,

Firstly, please accept my apologies for not being around during the restructuring of the forums -- I had a holiday booked which started the day the restructuring ended up taking place. Unfortunate but unavoidable.

Secondly, can I reassure everyone that all of your comments and feedback have been heard and are being considered and I think we will modify a couple of things in the light of some of that feedback. The process is dragging a little more slowly than any of us would like because we are a very small company and our priority has to be producing the paper magazines -- everyone has been pretty tied up recently with production deadlines. Now we're back at the quieter end of the cycle I hope we can move things forward with the forum tweaks quite shortly.

There has obviously been a modest reduction in traffic since the restructuring, but it's still early days and I think that it is to be expected as people find their way around again. Overall, though, we believe the new arrangements are beneficial and that once people become familiar with where to post things it will be business as usual.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hi Hugh,
I hope you had a good rest!

I have to say I find your last paragraph very overoptimistic IF some stuff does not get put back.

Dave.

It's probably a good move not to include the Lounge in Today's Posts, some of that stuff should not be given the oxygen of publicity outside the fetid swamp that is the Musicians' Lounge, just as we like it.

A sensitive extension of this filtering might make the TP section a bit more efficient although I've no idea how it could be done without stirring up a tornado of righteous indignation.

Happy Hols I trust.

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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A sensitive extension of this filtering might make the TP section a bit more efficient

---

Please - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

It's now fine just as it is!!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Thanks -- yes, a very refreshing holiday indeed. Unfortunate timing though...

I'm fairly sure we'll be making a few tweaks to the new structure over the coming weeks to help iron out a few unforeseen anomalies, but I don't think we'll be reintroducing a lot of individual topic forums again.

I know some people liked being big fish in small ponds, but having evaluated this carefully over a considerable period we think that this approach proved counter-productive overall, and that the wider-ranging forums -- like those we started with -- actually produced more better dialogues and exchanges that engaged more people. It will naturally take a while for people to get used to this approach again, but it worked very well before and we think it will again.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Forgive me Hugh but that sounds like a bit of cod psychology is being employed to go with the cod philosophy.

Counter-productive for whom? I still feel that I am losing something I cherished and I have not read one damn good reason why.

Dave.

Quote ef37a:

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I still feel that I am losing something I cherished and I have not read one damn good reason why.

---

Nothing has been lost. The same people are discussing the same things. Only the locations have changed... slightly.

There are several reasons for the changes, some technical, some practical, some because we think the advantages offered by the restructuring in bringing a wider range of topics within the gaze of a wider audience outweigh the disadvantages to a reticent few who liked the cliquey nature of the previous specialisations.

The forum structure is closer now to the way it was a few years back before Ian introduced a whole raft of specialised forums (which was done for a good reason and with the best of intentions at the time, but which has proved counter-productive generally). We had more traffic back then, and more expansive threads which involved more people. And we're hoping these changes, once everyone feels comfortable with them again, will bring back the more inclusive and more involving character we previously enjoyed.

No one likes change, especially the more senior amongst us like you and me, comfortably settled in ours ways... but it is a healthy thing to shake the thing up now and again, bring something new to bear, reinvigorate things a bit, make people think in slightly different ways...

Give it a chance, Dave, please.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hmm? Again there seems to be a note of dissaproval, punishment even for the way people HAVE been using the forum?

I was not around for the "pre nice" situation so I cannot comment.

"Give it a chance please"? Well "WE" did not get one did "we"? The changes were cut and dried and now The Powers That Be hope we shall all forget and keep coming. Well my forum experience and usage is perhaps not as TPTB think it is. I look for sections I am interested in, if it is not there I find another forum where it is.

Of course you will say the sections are still there but why should I bother to find them?

I probably shall still visit but not as often and only when I have a specific problem that warrants the time finding its place.

Dave.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I know some people liked being big fish in small ponds

---

A bit cruel, Hugh. I find it hard to believe that any of the helpful long-timers on here are really motivated that way.

Personally I'm all for embracing and exploiting change, but sometimes I think people are too keen to wade in with 'nobody likes change/give it a go' and don't entertain the possibility that they maybe actually *did* get it wrong!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote ef37a:

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Hmm? Again there seems to be a note of dissaproval, punishment even for the way people HAVE been using the forum?

---

Not at all, and I'm disappointed that you seem to be making such a personal thing of this.

We have restructured the forums slightly. That necessarily will involve a modest change to the way people interact with it. It's a change and while I appreciate that some will find that annoying or frustrating, it really isn't that big a deal surely?

You can still post questions and responses, and your views will still be appreciated in the same way -- and possibly now by a wider range of people who previously might not have found your words of wisdom when they were tucked away in the DIY forum or somewhere equally less well frequented.

Quote:

---

Well "WE" did not get one did "we"? The changes were cut and dried and now The Powers That Be hope we shall all forget and keep coming.

---

Our restructuring plans were arrived at after considerable debate and discussion within the SOS management team, the editorial staff and the moderation team, and took serious account of feedback, comments and observations received over the last year or two.

As with the magazine content, the decisions we arrived at were based on our own experiences, preferences and beliefs with the aim of making something that works as well as we can possibly make it, and is the website (magazine) that we want to enjoy being involved with and read ourselves.

Things aren't as 'cut and dried' as you seem to think -- and I've already said that we plan to revise a few elements shortly in direct response to the ongoing feedback and experiences received. Moreover, as the back room website systems are gradually overhauled over the coming months I'm sure there will be further changes as new and expanded facilities become available.

Quote:

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I look for sections I am interested in, if it is not there I find another forum where it is.

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I'm sorry our current forum structure doesn't suit the way you prefer to operate. Personally, I find looking through the day's active topics and investigating the threads that look interesting works very well for me. Perhaps you might like to try modifying your forum use to see if this alternative approach might work for you too. You never know, you might even discover some new areas of interest along the way...

Quote:

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Of course you will say the sections are still there but why should I bother to find them?

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For personal interest, self improvement, education, a sense of involvement... Why do any of us bother to do anything?

Quote:

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I probably shall still visit but not as often and only when I have a specific problem that warrants the time finding its place.

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That's very gracious of you Dave...

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote The Elf:

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A bit cruel, Hugh.

---

Hmmm... I can see where you're coming from -- I didn't intend it in quite the way you've perceived it. No offence intended to anyone.

One of the problems we're trying to address is that some of the very narrowly targetted forums were perceived by many as being rather cliquey and they tended to be dominated by a relatively few people -- mostly 'big fish' -- and while they were making valuable contributions the potential audience wasn't very wide and a lot of our potential forum users were missing out of participating and benefiting. By re-merging these forums back into more comprehensive forums we hope to stimulate greater participation and involvement, and wider and more healthy exchanges.

Quote:

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I think people are too keen to wade in with 'nobody likes change/give it a go' and don't entertain the possibility that they maybe actually *did* get it wrong!

---

It's a balancing act isn't it, and the only way to tell is to give it some time and let people get used to a slightly different way of working. Hopefully we'll see the benefits we expect... and if we don't we'll have to think again.

However, after careful consideration of what went before in comparison to the previous arrangement, we felt that the introduction of so many niche forums was probably 'wrong'. While it brought some benefits at the time there were also some significant and on-going disadvantages and we decided that, on balance, re-integrating some of the forums was probably the better option.

The current structure probably isn't fully optimised yet, but I think it's close to where we want to be. Hopefully past, present and future forum users will adopt and embrace it and find that there are some benefits in this approach. I know that they'll continue to let us know one way or the other and that we will continue to listen and respond as best we can.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I find it quite confusing that you see DIY/electronics as a niche to be encompassed by another more popular section , with the rationale that it will garner more readers .
This particularly strikes me as odd when other audio forums see more sections (DIY) as the way to go and is doing well from it .

I will stick around , but only to see if the reinstatement of the sections occurs , other than that I will endeavour to meet up the DIYers on another audio forum .
Jeeez I find that I now log in and only read the Lounge section , and that is only a spam bucket akin to a gaming forum .

IMHO this is a bad move Hugh , and the beating around the bush posts by staff seem to give the impression that this is really cast in stone behind close doors .
I would rather this is brought to a close so I can stop coming here , or embrace what I used to love .

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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we felt that the introduction of so many niche forums was probably 'wrong'. While it brought some benefits at the time there were also some significant and on-going disadvantages and we decided that, on balance, re-integrating some of the forums was probably the better option.

---

I can't say I agree.

By having sections like for example, DIY, it encouraged people to post and talk about DIY. But now that it is all lumped in with one forum (R&P), it's an utter mess in there (no less than 11 stickies looks ugly for a start). So now I don't feel inclined to post about such subjects at all..

It irritates me that we lost DIY and other sections, and got an Off Topic section instead. I don't see how discussing what happened on Big Brother tonight is in any way in the interests of SoS. But someone clearly thought that was more important than DIY..
I also confess to being irked by this very thread, that asked people for feedback, and now we've given it, it appears we're being told that not a whole lot is going to change about it now, and that we'll just get used to it.

It's been 2 or 3 weeks now. I think it is just as bad now as I did on day 1.

--------------------
Paul

For what it's worth the Forum has gone to the dogs. Why?
1. No passion. Back in the day Caravaggio murdered someone over a game of tennis. Now that's passion. Dynamism. Controversy is the mother of modern music and to sanitise the forum as has been done is like dousing it in antibiotics. Sure it's clean enough for Disney now but it's dull, dull, dull. No flora... no microbiology, no fertile mess.

I did point this out a year ago but it was made abundantly clear by Jones et al that the forum was not a democracy but a corporate space we were oh so fortunately given by the priviledged and ruling elite. A play pen if you will as a side product to the mag. No creative space at all.

The world is turning into some damned Politically Correct sanitorium while the lawyers and accountants run amok with machetes and bombs in their spare time. It's false and hollow. And the SOS forum is no longer interesting and quickluy getting useless for someone with oh, shall we say, an interest in serious music.

If you're not prepared to get your hands dirty just jack in the forum cause barely anything decent and worth reading has been posted so far this year. And you know what? it's a metaphor for pop music in general. Dead as dead.

I mean it's in the word "Forum" isn't it? Today I went down to the market place to talk about the things of the day. And some of those merchants held strongs views which I challenged. They did not always like it but the argument brought us somewhere higher, somewhat further along the path of enlightenment.

Edited by ElecTrika-MixTek (04/08/11 02:23 PM)

Again, can we please have more than one colour option, this one makes my eyes hurt - really.

Hi ElecTrika-MixTek

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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For what it's worth the Forum has gone to the dogs.

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I don't believe that to be true, since we still have a large number of visitors every day. It might be slightly less right now but this could be due to holiday season more than anything else Even our own Hugh Robjohns was away enjoying the Norfolk coastline just the other week.

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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1. No passion. Back in the day Caravaggio murdered someone over a game of tennis. Now that's passion.

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I know I speak for myself and the moderating team when I say that we are passionate about the forums. Why else do you think we have such a team of people so willing to give up their free time to have lengthy discussions with us about the future of the forums, to help us to run it, and to tell us in no uncertain terms when we might make a wrong decision?

Of course, if you're expecting blood to be shed to demonstrate our passion, well, you might be disappointed. So I'll agree that perhaps we don't quite meet THAT definition of passion. But I think that's no bad thing...!

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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Dynamism. Controversy is the mother of modern music and to sanitise the forum as has been done is like dousing it in antibiotics. Sure it's clean enough for Disney now but it's dull, dull, dull. No flora... no microbiology, no fertile mess.

---

Yes, that does all sound quite dull. We (meaning SOS + mods) agree that having a bit of controversy and a shakeup is a good thing... That's partly why we wanted to restructure the forums to attempt to change the perspective and breathe extra life into things. We also introduced the Musicians' Lounge to allow a space for people to go off-topic and discuss all kinds of things that were previously not allowed. Our moderating team also discussed ways of being more relaxed and lenient, and we changed our forum rules to reflect this. All in all, we did indeed do the opposite of 'sanitising' the forums.

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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I did point this out a year ago but it was made abundantly clear by Jones et al that the forum was not a democracy but a corporate space we were oh so fortunately given by the priviledged and ruling elite. A play pen if you will as a side product to the mag. No creative space at all.

---

OK, several things to say here. Firstly, your bit about me specifically saying the forums are not a democracy is taken out of context. I actually said that in this thread which was all to do with threads that had been deemed inappropriate by a moderating team. At that time we had no off-topic area, so off-topic and inappropriate threads were not allowed in the main forums. Our moderators removed one such thread, and then received complaints for doing so... when actually the forum poster had broken the rules.

As for the democracy - no, SOS forums is not a democracy and nor will it ever be. I stand by that point as that is what our official line is on things. We are a publishing company and have to maintain some degree of control over what we publish as, ultimately, people hold us personally responsible. This forum was originally set up as a discussion area to grow a community of people who were primarily readers of the SOS magazine and were musicians, engineers, producers etc., and over time that community has grown to a large population of people who don't necessarily subscribe to or read SOS but have a great interest in the things we do, and in music tech. It was never intended to be a 'democracy'.

Mike Stranks put it excellently in the same thread:

Quote Mike Stranks:

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There is a perception that the forums are some sort of communual resource that is owned by all the contributors in some sort of soviet collective model. But that's not the case. The forums are owned by a commercial publishing organisation who have delegated responsibility for their management and operation to a group of individuals - some employees, some not. These individulas run the forums as they see fit and are ultimately responsible to the company's board of directors.

---

If you think about it, very few places are actually true democracies. For example, I don't get an equal say in how my local Tesco supermarket is run or what products they stock as the produce guy in charge of Tesco. Similarly, I have no choice as to what colour the bus is that I catch to town, or where my desk is situated at work. Sometimes I might be invited for my feedback - in which case I expect the person asking to listen - but rarely do I have or expect a democratic decision on it.

What we've done with this forum restructure is invite feedback, listen carefully, and gone away to discuss it before we come back to the forum community with our proposals for changes based on the feedback received. I think that's actually a fair and considerate way of taking into account the views and opinions of our online community, and also to maintain some level of control over the site. After all, it is OUR site.

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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The world is turning into some damned Politically Correct sanitorium while the lawyers and accountants run amok with machetes and bombs in their spare time. It's false and hollow.

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Hmm, ok...

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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And the SOS forum is no longer interesting and quickluy getting useless for someone with oh, shall we say, an interest in serious music.

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OK, that is your opinion. Quite a lot of people feel differently, or they wouldn't still be here. In fact, if that's how you truly feel, it's surprising that you have chosen to stay here joining in discussions all this time, and only now when we decide to change things, tell us you find the place dull and boring

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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If you're not prepared to get your hands dirty just jack in the forum cause barely anything decent and worth reading has been posted so far this year. And you know what? it's a metaphor for pop music in general. Dead as dead.

---

Oh, but we *are* prepared to get our hands dirty. That's what we've been doing! As has been mentioned in other threads, we've spent a very long time coming up with this decision to rejig things - I think Hugh mentioned about 2 years worth of discussions? - and are taking a couple of weeks to sift properly through all the feedback received. Personally, I'm on the forums every day - even sometimes at weekends when it's my 'time off' from my job. I don't get paid to do this, I choose to. Our moderators are all unpaid but dedicate a huge portion of their free time to helping us out. No part of this is us not being prepared to get our hands dirty. Quite the opposite.

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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I mean it's in the word "Forum" isn't it? Today I went down to the market place to talk about the things of the day. And some of those merchants held strongs views which I challenged. They did not always like it but the argument brought us somewhere higher, somewhat further along the path of enlightenment.

---

Yes. Which is why we are having this conversation

Hopefully we both feel more enlightened now.

--------------------
SOS Web Editor, Support & Social Media
Friend SOS on Facebook | Follow SOS on Twitter

Quote nathanscribe:

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Again, can we please have more than one colour option, this one makes my eyes hurt - really.

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Hi Nathan,

Thanks for your suggestion. I have raised this with my colleagues and, although the forum currently appears to have the functionality to offer a choice of colour schemes, in reality it doesn't function correctly due to how we have had to integrate the forums into the rest of the website. This will be fixed in the new version of the forum software, but we can't give a guaranteed timescale on how soon this will be as it's still in development behind the scenes. Thanks for your patience!

Out of interest - what is the colour scheme you currently see? The one we're using at the moment is a selection of teals and greys, so should be fairly muted. In fact, it's only fractionally more colourful than the previous grey template. If you're seeing more bold colours, it's possible your ISP is using a cached version of the stylesheet - meaning you're not actually seeing the proper colours.

--------------------
SOS Web Editor, Support & Social Media
Friend SOS on Facebook | Follow SOS on Twitter

Quote Yago:

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I find it quite confusing that you see DIY/electronics as a niche to be encompassed by another more popular section.

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I think that integrating the DIY forum into R&P is one of the more contentious aspects of the make-over, and one that many of us are not entirely happy about. Needless to say, we have been having discussions behind the scenes about how best to address this specific point. Please watch this space.

Quote:

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I will stick around, but only to see if the reinstatement of the sections occurs, other than that I will endeavour to meet up the DIYers on another audio forum.

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Fair enough.

Quote:

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IMHO this is a bad move Hugh, and the beating around the bush posts by staff seem to give the impression that this is really cast in stone behind close doors.

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No. Nothing is cast in stone. But we don't taking these kinds of decisions lightly, and equally we don't abandon our plans at the first whinge. We've made some big changes and it will take people a while to get used to them. We might also have to revise some of them once we've built up some reliable experience and more feedback.

Quote:

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I would rather this is brought to a close so I can stop coming here, or embrace what I used to love.

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As I said before, from the point of view of content nothing has changed. All we've done is reduce the previously large number of separate forums into a fewer and more manageable number of more inclusive ones. If you want to talk about DIY things you still can, and all those people who participated before still can and hopefully will.

The important thing is the content, not where the content appears, surely?

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Jennifer Jones:

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Thanks for your suggestion. I have raised this with my colleagues

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Thanks.

Quote:

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...and, although the forum currently appears to have the functionality to offer a choice of colour schemes, in reality it doesn't function correctly due to how we have had to integrate the forums into the rest of the website. This will be fixed in the new version of the forum software

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Again, thanks. I have tried the colour scheme menu but as you say it doesn't work.

Quote:

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Out of interest - what is the colour scheme you currently see? The one we're using at the moment is a selection of teals and greys, so should be fairly muted. In fact, it's only fractionally more colourful than the previous grey template. If you're seeing more bold colours, it's possible your ISP is using a cached version of the stylesheet - meaning you're not actually seeing the proper colours.

---

I'm seeing pale greys and a kind of pale thing that I assume is 'teal'. Actually it's that paleness that I'm finding strenuous. There's something I can't quite put my finger on about the contrast between the various shades - the text, the bluey-grey of the quote boxes, the very slightly off-white grey of the main background to the text - I get a similar feeling to when I can't focus on something, and it's an eyestrain.

The option to choose a slightly larger text size would help too - something I can set as default for the forum on this site but leave other sites alone - in other words, I don't want to have to do it in my browser preferences. I don't know if that's possible.

Thanks for taking time to reply Hugh , your post has raised my outlook somewhat .
I will keep my proverbial mouth shut and wait with hope .
Thanks again

Quote ~Paul:

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By having sections like for example, DIY, it encouraged people to post and talk about DIY. But now that it is all lumped in with one forum (R&P), it's an utter mess in there (no less than 11 stickies looks ugly for a start). So now I don't feel inclined to post about such subjects at all.

---

Yes, having narrowly focussed forums encouraged discussions about narrow topics, and they were frequented by only a few people as a result. In the previous forum incarnation people still posted about specific narrow-subject topics, but within a wider-ranging forum and enjoyed a greater number of contributions as a result. That's what we want to get back to.

On the specific matter of the DIY forum, I'm not entirely convinced that amalgamating it within the R&P forum is the best option -- I think there is a better alternative and that is currently being discussed and evaluated by the wider SOS team. Watch this space...

Quote:

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It irritates me that we lost DIY and other sections, and got an Off Topic section instead.

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The ONLY thing we've 'lost' is a few of the neatly labelled pidgeon holes. The content is still being posted and can still be posted, but we're collating it in slightly different pidgeon-holes. Once people get used to where to look I'm hopeful that they'll feel more comfortable again.

... and the 'lounge' forum isn't INSTEAD of anything. It's AS WELL AS... Replacing the off-topic forum has been one of the most asked for things over the last couple of years and something we have finally decided to try again in direct response to that user feedback. Seems we can't please everyone no matter what we do...

Quote:

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I don't see how discussing what happened on Big Brother tonight is in any way in the interests of SoS.

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I think the argument goes along the lines of 'it encourages a sense of community by allowing like minded people to express themselves amongst their peers on matters outside of those subject areas considered to be of direct relevance to the SOS values'... The last time we tried it the facility was abused and caused us some major problems. This time we think we have found a better way of managing it... time will tell. But it is something that we've had a great many requests to reinstate, so we're trying once again -- by popular request!

Quote:

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But someone clearly thought that was more important than DIY..

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Again, we haven't removed anyone's ability to post or respond on DIY subjects, and the muso's lounge area is NOT instead of a DIY forum or anything else. It's a reinstated facility in response to concerted feedback requests.

It's also worth pointing out that we've also changed our approach to general forum moderation, to make the place considerably more flexible, and also relaxed the rules about what we can and can't allow in terns of company promotion and so on.

Quote:

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I also confess to being irked by this very thread, that asked people for feedback, and now we've given it, it appears we're being told that not a whole lot is going to change about it now, and that we'll just get used to it.

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Sorry you feel irked and I doubt anything I say will change your mind. All I can do is reiterate that we really are gathering and collating all the feedback. It is all being discussed and evaluated continually and it really does and will continue to influence our thinking and actions. We really do genuinely value and appreciate all of it and we have already made some changes to the original implimentation of the revised forum structure in direct response. We are currently planning a few more changes, and there may well be yet more in the future.

However, we arrived at the newly revised structure after careful planning which involved input from a wide range of people -- staff, moderators and general users -- who we believe to be representative of the general forum audience. The revisions have been made for what we consider to be sensible and valid reasons, and certainly not on a casual whim.

For those reasons, I don't think it is unreasonable for us to afford these changes a sensible period of time for people to acclimatise properly, and neither do I think we should hastily revert to the previous arrangement on the back of a few people shouting loudly. It needs to be more considerd than that, otherwise we will end up with the same problems we've been trying to overcome.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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For what it's worth the Forum has gone to the dogs. Why?
1. No passion.

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We're all still very passionate about the forums. If we weren't none of us would spend anything like the amount of time or effort here that we do -- especially not the volunteer moderators who all do a fantastic job for no material reward.

One of the reasons for the restructing is to try and enhance the sense of community and cohesion by trying to get people to become more involved in a wider range of discussions, instead of fragmenting into lots of separate cliquey sub-forums. Hopefully, that will help encourage a little more passion -- but at the end of the day, it comes down to what our forum users bring in with them.

Quote:

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I did point this out a year ago but it was made abundantly clear by Jones et al that the forum was not a democracy but a corporate space we were oh so fortunately given by the priviledged and ruling elite.

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It's not a democracy. Never has been, never will be. It's provided as an extension to the resources and values of SOS as a commercial operation, and we are indeed fortunate that the SOS management are prepared to fund and support it. There are countless alternative forums if our approach doesn't meet with your aesthetic values, although I doubt many could be deemed 'democratic' either.

Quote:

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The SOS forum is no longer interesting and quickluy getting useless for someone with oh, shall we say, an interest in serious music.

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The forum is what people bring to it and that is really beyond our direct control, although we certainly encourage people to discuss serious music as much as anything else.

Quote:

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...barely anything decent and worth reading has been posted so far this year.

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Perhaps you should shoulder a shared resonsibility for that as a forum user yourself? Personally, I've found lots worth reading and I hope that continues for a long time to come.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hi SoS'ers,

I've refrained from posting on the new forum format for a few weeks as I wanted to give it a shot and be fair. I have to say overall that I prefer the old layout, including color schemes, etc. Some of my favorites seem largely intact - notably the Guitar forum and Keyboard forum, but the loss of the Music Theory and the Video fora is unfortunate. The Musician's Lounge seems nice but I don't know why it couldn't have simply been added to the old set of fora.

We obviously don't know what the behind the scenes rationale might have been - moving to new software, or trying to consolidate servers or lower costs or what not. And I'm not attacking Jennifer or any of the mods who discussed this for months. If you bring back the dropped fora, my guess is most of the grumbling will pass. As the saying goes, "plus ca change..."

Cheers,

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

From what I understand, SOS believes that, by lumping unrelated topics together, traffic will increase. In other words, if they reduce choice, people will make more use of what's left.

This is a seriously flawed logic.

Perhaps SOS will attract more of the "best interface under £200"-type posters, however more experienced forum members with expert knowledge are not going to put up with the resulting poor signal to noise ratio. Life is too short. There are web publications that rate quality over quantity - shame SOS doesn't want to be one of them.

Quote Tui:

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From what I understand, SOS believes that, by lumping unrelated topics together, traffic will increase. In other words, if they reduce choice, people will make more use of what's left.

This is a seriously flawed logic.

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A few deep flaws in those arguments Tui. First of all 'lumping unrelated topics together', some forums have been combined or integrated into broader forums but the reason for that was explicitly because they were clearly related. Or perhaps you would like to explain how Mics & Miking techniques, for example, have no relationship to Recording & Production? Whilst I am prepared to concede that you might be able to construct such an argument, I hope you would equally be prepared to concede that that it would be on a par with arguing that black was white and that you would be knocked over on a zebra crossing.

And secondly; what choice, exactly, has been removed? The new structure retains a home for every topic and every discussion. Nothing has been excluded. I've checked.

I'm sorry, but the only flawed logic I see is in your post.

Where I do see a valid argument is where some of the less active forum subjects might be swamped in the broader forums, and we have actively sought feedback on those areas and (I can assure you as a participant) have already started discussions on how that might be resolved.

Quote:

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There are web publications that rate quality over quantity - shame SOS doesn't want to be one of them.

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SOS was a web publication from the very earliest days of the web, a real pioneer. Quality was always, and remains, paramount. And I see nothing in the recent restructuring that reduces quality and a lot that should improve the quality of discussion and debate.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Nice to see Hugh back on deck, though I'm disappointed you have nothing to add to this debate, it's all been said already. I understand what you're saying, so no need to expand the SOS rationale, I just believe it's wrong.

This debate is fast becoming tiresome, greatly fuelled by SOS intransigence regarding re-introduction of specialist forums.

I'd like to conclude by saying:

This is a democracy - it's only as good as the people who subscribe - if you piss around with them they'll bugger off somewhere else. (which has already happened) You define your consistency by the quality and range of your forums - your choice.

You argue that 'broader' forums are needed to encourage users to post in topics they might not otherwise find. This is nonsense, if you can use a computer you can navigate this site. If I choose to review what's happening across all forums I'll take a look at Today's Active Topics - my choice.

Hugh used the word 'clique' a few times - get over it, this whole site and magazine is 'clique' which is why we're all here!

I believe SOS is the best recording mag in the world. Why? Because it has specialist in depth articles and reviews on a subject I'm passionate about. Consequently I would argue that these forums need to reflect this level of sophistication and therefore that it's desirable to establish a range of specialist forums where 'clique' people can debate issues in depth.

But you say all the content is still there - wrong! This community creates the content and this debate is about community not about content. It's the sense of community you establish by subscribing to a 'clique' forum that facilitates the debate. I haven't met a single soul from these forums face to face, but I feel confident about taking Hugh's, 0VU's and John Willet's advice. I enjoy talking with Mike Stranks, The Elf, Ariosto (before he left) and many more - so it's to do with community. And communities are formed in villages not cities!

And I'm not against change - I very much welcomed the Mic forum when it was introduced, and welcome the lounge forum (not that I'll go there but at least it takes some non-technical posts away from the recording forum).

Like many, I remain unconvinced.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

What do you want Bob?
If it was me and i owned this place , i'd listen to you.
So, if you can , and i mean this - hang on for abit. This place would be a lot less without you.
JellyJim, amongst others, is also a good egg! and we have been told - IT'S nOT YOURS - ITYS OUR FORUM - NOT% aDEMocracy. Oh well - guys like you Bob make it what it is. So dont go away.

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.. is this thing on?

Edited by Stan (05/08/11 02:11 AM)

I've just dipped into this (long) thread. Can't say I have read every post in detail but...

I'll nail my colours to the mast here to say that I go back a long way with SOS having been a contributor since the first edition (I think my first review for them was published in the second edition - an Akai MG614). Whatever, I know Ian of old as well ... and Paul (recorded at his 4-track studio in Malvern LONG before SOS!) and others. Whatever. And I am not going to kiss arse but...

This is SOS's forum to do with as they like - an offshoot of their commercial venture.

I couldn't give a stuff about the loss and/or merging of sub-forums - I frequent many a forum that just have one place to post, no sub-forums ... the post title dictates the subject. They work brilliantly well. Maybe I am atypical but I just use "Today's Active Topics" when I dip in here ... see what's going on. If I want to 'back-refer', I use the search engine.

I can't say I like the way the forum is presented - it seems a bit old fashioned compared with others - even free forum spaces - but it works well enough. Couldn't give a toss about colour schemes either (although I think the new one is just fine).

Re-introducing the 'off topic' area is a brave step. It's fine for some forums to have such things but when you're linked to a commercial publication, there is a risk of legal ramifications if members post something that could be interpreted (by some knobs who choose to take offence) as inflammatory or libellous. The poster wouldn't be liable - SOS would be and it could be Ian in the dock! Let's hope, for example, that Morrissey's legal people don't drop in here and decide to take umbrage!! From the place becoming more 'politically correct' (as has been implied here), it's become a bit more 'rock n roll'! Which is good IMO.

And the re-introduction of the off-topic area (the 'Musician's Lounge') has, I feel, invigorated this place as musos chat about things they feel passionate about outside of "Which mic/audio interface/monitors for under £100?" which, IMO, brought this place down into Dullsvile - I feel a greater sense of 'community' already and it has made the place a little more light hearted. You see, I have pointed many people to the SOS forum in the past and they invariably tell me that they know the place but it's dull and, they feel, moderated rather harshly - the loosening of regs and a more 'softly, softly' approach here could bring them in. I hope so because there is a wealth of talent here only too happy to pass on their (often decades of) experience.

At the end of the day, it's SOS's forum to do with as they want and it's free FFS - you don't have to be an SOS subscriber to get in and you don't even have to join to view the wealth of advice on offer here ... it's available for all which is more than can be said of (lesser) magazines' on-line discussion places which serve, much of the time, merely as promotional vehicles.

I have no axe to grind here but I think the place is coming in for some unfair flack simply because, perhaps, some are just used to the old forum and can't adapt to change and have maybe become stuck in their ways.

I regret some of the changes and welcome some of the others - six of one, half a dozen of the other. Get over it is my advice and embrace the change and go with it. It's still a great place and maybe/hopefully all the better in the long term for the looser regulations.

When all's said and done, SOS could close the place completely because they are not obliged to provide the facility.

Personally, despite my previous association with the mag, I couldn't care less. It's a.n.other forum FFS - there are plenty of them around if you don't like what's on offer here!

My 2¢ FWIW!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Good post Hollow
I was thinking similar after my last post .

Basically I came to the conclusion that the mods here can only pass on our views to the powers that be and perhaps voice their own concerns .
After that , the mods probably have no further say in what happens than we do .
They probably feel the same frustrations (perhaps even worse , have to bite their tongues) .

In this respect , us dragging them over the coals is only having a negative effect , wearing down our only allies .

IMHO it's time to sit back and see what decisions are made , and see if you are happy or not .
There is little else now , no point shooting the messengers .

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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Nice to see Hugh back on deck, though I'm disappointed you have nothing to add to this debate

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Hi Bob, It's nice to be back. If I have 'nothing to add' it's because I'm fully onboard with the overall restructuring scheme. I was involved in the planning, I understand the pros and cons, and I think it makes sense. I do think there are a few things that aren't quite optimised yet, but we'll get there. I don't think we handled the restructuring very well as far as its public implementation was concerned, and as a result we have a lot of 'hearts and minds' work to do, but that was largely to do with the unfortunate timing of things and we are where we are.

Quote:

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...SOS intransigence regarding re-introduction of specialist forums.

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A major pillar of the decision to restructure was specifically our considered desire to reduce the number of 'specialist' forums. Clearly there are pros and cons to that, but on balance we feel the (potential) advantages outweigh the (claimed) disadvantages. Time will tell... and we plan to give it some time to see.

Quote:

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This community creates the content and this debate is about community not about content.

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You are quite right -- re-energising a sense of community is a strong factor behind the changes. That's why we have also re-introduced the lounge and relaxed the moderation policies. Part of the downside of having lots of specialised sub-forums was that we had ended up with lots of separate small niche 'communities', rather than the all-embracing one we sought. The latter is what we had before the sub-forums were introduced and what we'd like to try to restore.

Quote:

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I haven't met a single soul from these forums face to face

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This is another aspect that we have plans to address. Prior to the sub-forums various unofficial gatherings were held quite regularly thanks to the inclusive SOS forum community. We hope to encourage and support more of this kind of thing so that forum users can meet up.

Quote:

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Like many, I remain unconvinced.

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I understand -- and I thank you for expressing your concerns so clearly. Your comments sum up the feeling of many users and we acknowledge that. We are hearing these comments and we are discussing them -- it's not falling on deaf ears... although that doesn't mean we will necessarily decide to revert to the previous structure overnight. All rights reserved and all that.

Picking up on a couple of Hollowsun's comments, the forum software is very old and clunky compared to the current state of the art, but there's nothing we can do about that until we complete our whole web upgrade process. It's on the list...

The new colour scheme is exactly that. A small element of a makeover which makes the place look a little fresher. I think as many people like it as not, but if it transpires that there are visibility issues or other problems of course we'll tweak it a bit.

hugh


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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound