So in short, when you re-structured last time, you made a balls up of it and all the people who cried "this will kill the forum" were right - and you were wrong.

Oh well

I think the mistake was in fiddling with the old system. Archive it, and start over.

(This'll be good )

Quote ow:

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(This'll be good )

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What will ?
Are you referring to "unrest" providing you with entertainment ?

Quote ow:

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So in short, when you re-structured last time, you made a balls up of it and all the people who cried "this will kill the forum" were right - and you were wrong.

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Er... No. And kindly put your stirring stick down now.

There was sound reasoning behind introducing all the sub-forums and quite patently doing so didn't 'kill the forum' at all. Indeed, as the volume of feedback clearly shows a lot of people grew to like the introduction of sub-forums, so it's difficult to justify describing it as a 'balls up'!

But the simple fact is that, for a variety of reasons, we ended up not travelling in the web direction that we had anticipated and consequently the underlying technical requirement for all the narrow-topic sub-forums didn't materialise.

Having had time to watch how the sub forums developed and the affect they've had on the overall forum, we now believe that fewer, broader forums is a better way to operate. It works for a lot of other forums today and it worked well for us before, and while there will always be pros and cons which ever way you structure things, on balance and after a lot of debate and discussion, we think this pretty modest restructuring is the right way to go.

Having said that, it is clear that we haven't got it 100% yet and there will probably be some small revisions shortly.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Yago:

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Good post Hollow
I was thinking similar after my last post .

Basically I came to the conclusion that the mods here can only pass on our views to the powers that be and perhaps voice their own concerns .
After that , the mods probably have no further say in what happens than we do .
They probably feel the same frustrations (perhaps even worse , have to bite their tongues) .

In this respect , us dragging them over the coals is only having a negative effect , wearing down our only allies .

IMHO it's time to sit back and see what decisions are made , and see if you are happy or not .
There is little else now , no point shooting the messengers .

---

I tend to agree Yago: It is unfortunate in my view that perjoritve terms such as "whinge" and "clique" have been bandied.

This all tends to remind me of the Teletex SNAFU of 20 odd years ago and as with that "change for change (or monies!) sake" I am willing to bet a whistle blower will eventually come forth.

Dave.

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#They did not listen, they are not listening still...Perhaps they never will?#

That's this restructure, not the last re-structure. I'm talking about the re-structure where you binned the OT forum, and the 'community spirit' (the one you are now trying to reinstate) with it.

This latest restructure looks to me like a desparate 'clutching at straws' and a lust for a time-gone-by when this was the busiest and greatest music forum on the web.

It's intersting to me that many of the opinions of the user community at that time have been vindicated by this latest move.

I wish you all the luck with it.

I would also like to raise the point that a web forum, far from 'not' being a democracy, is possibly the finest example of a working democracy. If the constituents don't like it they just leave. The actions of the 'government' have an immediate and visceral affect and this is refelcted in the traffic. The 'traffic' being the defining factor in the success or railure of a forum.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I understand -- and I thank you for expressing your concerns so clearly. Your comments sum up the feeling of many users and we acknowledge that. We are hearing these comments and we are discussing them -- it's not falling on deaf ears... although that doesn't mean we will necessarily decide to revert to the previous structure overnight. All rights reserved and all that.

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Your assurance is comforting. Time will tell whether it's been the right decision..................

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote ow:

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I'm talking about the re-structure where you binned the OT forum, and the 'community spirit' (the one you are now trying to reinstate) with it.

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We had no choice but to close the OT forum because, despite all our pleas at the time, some members of the 'community' were hell bent on dragging us all down. We are fully aware that the SOS 'community' was damaged as a result. Hopefully, creating the lounge will go some way to expanding the current community. Maybe it will go the same way as the last one... time will tell.

Quote:

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This latest restructure looks to me like a desparate 'clutching at straws' and a lust for a time-gone-by when this was the busiest and greatest music forum on the web.

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Not at all, but I know you have your set views and it's largely pointless of me to try to change those. But for anyone interested in listening, what we're trying to do is provide what we believe is a better, easier, more manageable and more understandable forum structure that encourages more interaction between posts and posters. Adding the Lounge and relaxing the rules a little will hopefully also enhance the community spirit, and these are things we've been wanting to do for quite some time.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote zenguitar:

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Quote Tui:

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From what I understand, SOS believes that, by lumping unrelated topics together, traffic will increase. In other words, if they reduce choice, people will make more use of what's left.

This is a seriously flawed logic.

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A few deep flaws in those arguments Tui. First of all 'lumping unrelated topics together', some forums have been combined or integrated into broader forums but the reason for that was explicitly because they were clearly related. Or perhaps you would like to explain how Mics & Miking techniques, for example, have no relationship to Recording & Production? Whilst I am prepared to concede that you might be able to construct such an argument, I hope you would equally be prepared to concede that that it would be on a par with arguing that black was white and that you would be knocked over on a zebra crossing.

---

Zen, I said earlier that I appreciate you engaging in a dialogue, however now you've left the realms of reason entirely. Black is white?

Let me give you an analogy: Mics & Miking techniques or Recording & Production have as little in common as foreign policies or personal finance, when discussed in a national newspaper. Yes, both topics relate to life on earth, but that doesn't mean to say they should be lumped together in one section - for if they were, the readership would complain bitterly, and rightly so.

Coming back to audio, there are in fact specialist magazines that cover one aspect of the recording and production process only, such as mixing or mastering. This should make it obvious that forums, too, need to have a clear focus to be meaningful.

Quote zenguitar:

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And secondly; what choice, exactly, has been removed? The new structure retains a home for every topic and every discussion. Nothing has been excluded. I've checked.

I'm sorry, but the only flawed logic I see is in your post.

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Really. Did you bother to read my previous posts? It has been pointed out that existing User Reviews, for example, can not be searched anymore. All of those reviews are lost - forever. I tried searching for my own review of the Roland RD-700SX, but there was no result.

Existing User Reviews have indeed been removed, they have indeed been excluded.

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=436543& Main=325890

This it?
I have ALWAYS used Google for searches. SoS search has ALWAYS been byzantine rubbish IMHO!

Dave.

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#They did not listen, they are not listening still...Perhaps they never will?#

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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...We had no choice but to close the OT forum because, despite all our pleas at the time, some members of the 'community' were hell bent on dragging us all down...

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If you don't mind me saying, Hugh, that is BS. There was nobody in the 'community' who had any desire at all to drag anything down and the only people who openly stated that they would like to see the back of it were 'certain' moderators who, said quite clearly, that it was taking up too much of their time to moderate. That coupled with, once again, openly documented worries about the sensibilities of the new state-side market.

The fact that some mods got all power crazy (when drunk most likely) and succeeded in alienating key posters with their clear flouting of rules that they were supposed to be enforcing.

So what was it, stateside market, suspected trolls, too much time?

No, nobody wanted it to go, Sir, we had spent years building the damned thing up into the key resource for all things music on the web and loved it dearly.

And i know that there will be a number of people who will be upset by your last post, because nothing could be further from the truth. The reams of passionate outbursts from members at that time tell the story. You don't get that from people hell bent on destruction.

And i am prepared to listen. We all should be, that's what making music is all about!

Suggestion

An alternative to just bringing back the mic. forum could be "Microphones & Monitors" or "Microphones / Monitors / Acoustics" or the like.

IE: transducers and things that react with the room.

This would keep these sort of discussions away from all the computer and effects, and outboard gear threads as both microphones and monitors are similar in the way that we would be discussing how equipment reacts with its acoustic surroundings.

It would answer the moans about bringing back the mic. forum, but also broaden out the discussions so it was not too narrow (as the changes want to do).

I think this would work pretty well and make all camps happy - no?

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote Tui:

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Let me give you an analogy: Mics & Miking techniques or Recording & Production have as little in common as foreign policies or personal finance

---

Really? I could follow an argument to support recording (technique and technology) as possibly requiring a different mind set to production... but most recordings start with a microphone, surely?

Quote:

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Coming back to audio, there are in fact specialist magazines that cover one aspect of the recording and production process only, such as mixing or mastering. This should make it obvious that forums, too, need to have a clear focus to be meaningful.

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Our magazine doesn't, and we prefer to take a far more holistic and all-embracing approach. The same ethos is being reflected in the forum structure.

Quote:

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It has been pointed out that existing User Reviews, for example, can not be searched anymore.

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The search engine has always been a weak aspect of our forums, but there's not a lot we can do about it at the moment. Using the google site-search function works quite well, though, as a practical work-around.

Quote:

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All of those reviews are lost - forever.

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Nothing is lost -- we have archives of everything, and as time allows I believe the plan is to relocate the user review content into the appropriate forums. However, this requires a lot of manual and time-consuming work, so it will not happen instantly.

Your review is already in the keyboards forum, though (it had been lurking in the depths of the R&P forum before that).

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote ow:

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If you don't mind me saying, Hugh, that is BS.

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As it happens, I do mind. Quite a lot.

Quote:

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There was nobody in the 'community' who had any desire at all to drag anything down

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Sorry. You are wrong. While I'm quite certain the vast majority enjoyed the OT forum and respected its rules, a small subset caused no end of grief and, as often happens, ended up ruing it for everyone. But it was all a long time ago... let's hope the world today is a different place and the lounge doesn't suffer a similar fate.

Quote:

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the only people who openly stated that they would like to see the back of it were 'certain' moderators who, said quite clearly, that it was taking up too much of their time to moderate.

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Not only the moderators. The entire SOS management team wanted rid of it. In fact, we came perilously close to losing the entire forum over it. And why was it taking up so much moderator time? Because we had continually to fight a battle removing wildly inappropriate and occasionally legally damaging posts from people who posted such material quite deliberately.

Quote:

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So what was it, stateside market, suspected trolls, too much time?

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A combination of all three, probably, but with the last two being the dominant factors.

Quote:

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And i know that there will be a number of people who will be upset by your last post, because nothing could be further from the truth.

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Perhaps the truth appears different depending on which side of the mirror you're standing. I've related the situation as I experienced it.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote John Willett:

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Suggestion

---

Thanks John. We have been discussing possible variations on this kind of theme that would go some way to resolving the disparate aims here, and we think we have a workable plan now, but are awaiting input from a number of key people.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote John Willett:

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Suggestion

---

Thanks John. We have been discussing possible variations on this kind of theme that would go some way to resolving the disparate aims here, and we think we have a workable plan now, but are awaiting input from a number of key people.

Hugh

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I hope you took note of my input then. I'm a key person.
Front door key
Car key
Office key
Gate key
and even club entry swipe card


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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Quote ef37a:

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<a href="/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=436543&Main=325890" target="_blank">http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=436543&a mp;Main=325890</a>

This it?

---

It is indeed. Not much of a review on my part, obviously. I referred to this thread because I knew it existed, as I had contributed to it.

In effect, though, this thread and hundreds more are unavailable to forum members who do the logical thing and use SOS' own search function. However, if SOS' own search is so unreliable, perhaps it's time to shelve it altogether and replace it with a Google search. A search function that doesn't search is pretty useless, isn't it.

The deeper issue, though, is that, in the absence of a User Reviews forum, there will be no more user reviews. This might be by design: SOS is primarily in the business of selling hardcopy magazines - magazines that contain a fair amount of reviews. Perhaps, users posting reviews are now considered undesirable competition. The same might be true for posters who extensively contribute to threads on microphone technique, DIY and so on.

It boils down to this: SOS are reducing their web presence, and they don't mind alienating longstanding and professionally qualified forum members in the process. Let's hope they know what they're doing - however, if my experience with somewhat comparable ventures in the UK is anything to go by, I wouldn't hold my breath.

I ran a forum once. I found it a nightmare situation with half the subscribers wanting updates and changes, and the rest wanting to keep it 'as it always was'. I ending up ditching the whole thing.

Let's hope that doesn't happen here....

Hi all,

I'd like to suggest an idea that might achieve everyone's ends (although not addressing the new colors, which I can live with). Can we have the old forums and the new forums coexist, and simply allow a thread to exist in more than one forum? For example, if I started one of my renowned "Lesser Known" threads in the Guitar forum, could it also be cross-listed in the Musicians Lounge forum? Not duplicate threads - which is a nightmare from a software point of view, coordinating the updates, etc - but just list the thread in both fora?

That said, if that's not possible I'm content to live with the new layout. The forum feature is a cherry on the parfait to the SoS website. I don't want to see everyone get so hot and bothered (especially not the estimable SoS staff) that it gets nuked. Looking at all of Hugh's recent responses, my first thought is, I'd rather have him responding to technical questions on microphone esoterica (not erotica, although some people may view microphones in that light) than engaged in defending the new layout.

Let's have some peace here, brothers and sisters! The world is going to Hell in a hand basket (not a name for the new AC/DC album but should be) and SoS is one of the few places on the web that doesn't cause me to want to sit in a room with the lights out and wait for the extraterrestials to come and put us out of our misery.

Cheers, y'all...

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

Thank you very much for changing the forum and its look great.

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This user's signature has been removed by a moderator as it broke the forum rules

Thank you all for your feedback on the recent restructuring of the forums. We will shortly be making some further changes in response to your suggestions.

A forum is nothing without its users, and our motivation in any changes we make here is simply to create a well-functioning, vibrant, friendly place where people want to hang out and discuss recording, production and audio technology. We have no agenda beyond that.

Easy, therefore, to simply give the users what they want, you might think. Well, perhaps, if everyone agrees on what it is that they want, but clearly they do not, in this context, just as in life in general. Everyone with a particular area of interest, say, microphones, or acoustics, wants to see a specialised forum for their subject area, whilst being entirely content to see other areas that they are less interested in, gathered together under larger more generalised headings. Being entirely responsive to the users’ wishes might therefore consist either of creating a very large number of narrow forums to keep everyone happy, or deciding that everyone should be equally compromised and creating a limited number of forums that encompass natural groupings of the various special interests.

The former option would appear to be a clear winner there, wouldn’t it? But it creates its own set of problems too. If someone wants to post a question about achieving a specific type of vocal sound, do they post it in the dedicated ‘Microphones’ forum, or in ‘Recording Hardware’ (because they also want some assistance with the choice of compressor and its settings), or does it go in the dedicated ‘Vocal’ forum, or the equally dedicated ‘Recording: But Does Not Include Microphones Or Recording Hardware Because They Have Their Own Forums’ forum? Or do they post it four times and engage in four separate discussions each covering certain aspects of their topic?

Structuring forums is all about finding the right balance between focus, allowing intense, in-depth discussions between people with very similar interests, and fragmentation, where threads that are potentially of much wider interest than the specialisation that they are posted within may not be seen other than by one particular group. Collating the feedback on the changes so far and the consensus view amongst the Moderators leads me to the following:

Recording & Production as it stands is felt to be too broad. Dividing it into a Recording forum, to include Mics & Miking and other recording hardware, and a Production forum, to cover mixing, mastering etc, seems to offer a reasonable balance between depth of focus and scope for broader interaction.

Songwriting, arrangement and music theory doesn’t sit comfortably alongside all the technology-related stuff and would work better in its own forum.

DIY needs a more appropriate home, which may perhaps be found within Studio Design and Acoustics, with the reasoning that there is a degree of common outlook within the two user groups.

User Reviews were accidentally bundled into R&P, probably via a cut & paste error on my part in compiling one of the lists. That wasn’t the intention and they should be restored.

As I said at the beginning of this post, if there was a format clearly preferred by the vast majority of users, then that’s what we would adopt (to pre-empt any posts saying the previous format was clearly preferred by the majority, it wasn’t and that’s why we felt we had to make some changes). In the absence of that clear preference, we, as the operators of the forums, have to take decisions. We can’t expect to please everybody with them, but I would at least like to feel that you understand how and why we took them, and give the (revised) new structure a chance to demonstrate what benefits it might have to offer.

Finally, for all the people who contributed to say how much they liked the new structure, I hope these further tweaks don’t do anything to undermine that view!

Thanks for reading. We do actually all have the same goal here — effective, friendly, informative SOS forums — even if we don’t quite agree on how best to get there.

PS. Jennifer isn’t personally responsible for these changes btw; she has posted a lot about them because that is part of her job, but she doesn’t get to make the decisions. You can blame me for that.

Thanks Dave, those suggestions seem to be a reasonable compromise. My main concern was the dropping of the Mics and Mic Technique forum, but having a 'Recording Techniques' forum separated from 'Production' seems to make sense and would be worth a try. I think it's important to consider a prominent descriptor for each forum, perhaps with examples, given the various changes that have occurred.

I've found I'm quickly losing interest in the broad 'Recording and Production' forum, so let's hope this helps. One aspect I find tiresome, should I say potentially tiresome, is the fact that posters can now self promote themselves and I'm wondering if 'self promotion' should have it's own forum, if not a category in Readers Adds, which seems more appropriate. Or maybe it's possible to have this as a searchable option in our user information. After all we all have something to promote!

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Thanks for that Bob, your contributions and those of others helped us recognise that Recording & Production was too unwieldy.

And as for self-promotion, we've been very strict on that in the past. But we did think it would be beneficial to provide a forum for businesses to use for press releases, promotions, and offers legitimately rather than having to moderate individuals within those businesses being 'creative' in using the forums for promotion. So we thought it would pragmatic to provide somewhere for that. And as we have a large number of individual members with products and services to offer who contribute freely to the broader forums, we didn't want them to be disadvantaged compared to the big boys so we also relaxed the rules on self promotion.

However, we are keeping an eye on excessive self-promotion and will remove excessive posts or links as required. And if you think someone is stepping over the line, please use the SOS button in their post to flag your concerns to the mods. It generates an email to all the mods, tonight I've already removed a couple of duplicate posts in response to a member flagging them up.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Apologies if I missed this, but what reason was given for removing the Newbies sub-forum?

I always felt that it represented a forgiving, friendly place where we gave people a gentle welcome.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

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Apologies if I missed this, but what reason was given for removing the Newbies sub-forum?

I always felt that it represented a forgiving, friendly place where we gave people a gentle welcome.

---

Seconded. We are all (almost) noobs at some aspects of The Game!

Dave.

Reflected before typing this, but on balance I think The Elf and ef37a are right.

I still recall my very first post where, seeking to help someone and using common/generally accepted terminology I received a sharp knuckle-rap from a long-standing forum-member. I very nearly never came back... (Pity you did some cry... )

For the reasons stated by my esteemed colleagues, "Newbies" was a good place and I'd welcome it's reinstatement. However, all of the old lags like me would need to curb their sarcastic or demeaning comments such as, "Well if you don't know that, you've no business to be involved in this sort of thing". Sadly, far too frequent from some...

Oh and while I'm hear... thanks Dave for your considered response.


(Wildly off-topic... good news Elf about you going full-time... hope it works out really well! )

Re. Newbies Forum
One of the things I personally would like to see disappear from the SOS forums is exactly that kind of "knuckle rap" response. To my mind, newbie questions in the main forums are an opportunity for higher-skilled members to welcome a new visitor, offer them some help and maybe make them feel they want to come back. Some members, however, seem to see them only as an irritation and an unwelcome intrusion into 'their' discussion area.

If we simply can't make the main forums a more welcoming place to visitors who are relatively new to the subject area, I would be happy to consider reinstating Newbies, but isn't it preferable that we try to make at least our part of the world a better place first?

Quite Mike,
Sarcasm and "RTFM!" have no place in a noobies section (but if there ain't one?). Persons of whatever level of nonce should only visit such a forum if they genuinely want to help..AND are prepared to answer the most basic questions, again and again and aga..........

There is also the point that answers to noobs will, by definition, often be simple, incomplete and probably cause eyes to bulge in the cognoscenti. Such experts too should curb the urge to jump in unless a gross technical error is touted or the safety of equipment or persons is threatened.

Hey! I think I am making a good case for a noob section?

Dave.

Quote Dave Lockwood:

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Re. Newbies Forum
One of the things I personally would like to see disappear from the SOS forums is exactly that kind of "knuckle rap" response. To my mind, newbie questions in the main forums are an opportunity for higher-skilled members to welcome a new visitor, offer them some help and maybe make them feel they want to come back. Some members, however, seem to see them only as an irritation and an unwelcome intrusion into 'their' discussion area.

If we simply can't make the main forums a more welcoming place to visitors who are relatively new to the subject area, I would be happy to consider reinstating Newbies, but isn't it preferable that we try to make at least our part of the world a better place first?

---

Don't think it works Dave, mixing the totally clueless with the totally clued up. There will always be some smart arse show off out to put peeps down. At least in a newbies section they can be told to bog off and take more water with it.

Dave.

I just feel that at least with a specific 'Newbies' forum you know to take things gently, gloss over the low-level detail and generally be more forgiving.

As a newbie I think I'd be very wary of posting straight into the main topic areas, simply because I'd probably *expect* to be given a hard time, whether that's true or not.

I think replies are also easier to make in the Newbies forum, since you do often have to over-simply your replies and tell a few white lies, just to get a basic point across. I've lost count of the number of times my over-simplified post has attracted an 'Ah, but...' response that only serves to completely baffle the OP.

I'm not saying I'm right and anyone else is wrong; I'm just raising the question. I *think* as a newbie I'd appreciate a place where I can flag myself up for gentler attention, and as a person trying to help I know to demand a little less of the OP.

@Mike Stranks - Thanks for the kind words, Mike. It's taken me many years to reach this point, but with demand for my work going through the roof the time is right to make the jump. I'll now be working days at the 'other' studio and continuing to put time in at my regular places during the evening and weekends. I'm not sure quite what has happened in the last couple of years, but I must be doing *something* right!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

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... I've lost count of the number of times my over-simplified post has attracted an 'Ah, but...' response that only serves to completely baffle the OP.

---

Me too...

The changes you outline certainly sound worth trying out and seeing how they go for a few months before I formulate a final opinion. Good, excellent in fact, thank you.

Having said that, I would still align myself with the Bring Back the Newbies Forum idea. In retrospect I wish there had been a Newbies forum when I first started posting here, I'd have felt more comfortable and less afraid of making a fool of myself. (I've since realised I'm going to make a fool of myself anyway so I may as well get used to it, but that's a different hard lesson).

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Re: noobs.

On any forum where I might have an interest in the subject but little or no experience it's good to have a place to 'dip one's digit' without incurring the wrath of grizzled old boars. The fact that I'm posting in that arena means I don't feel the need to apologise further for stepping in. Said GOBs can know to avoid the place and the inconvenience of having to differentiate between fellow old pharts and the rest of the world.

On another level it's about as good a welcome mat as there can be and is common practise across auto, techno and other audio fora.

Don't be left out.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

I really miss the master area. Also the microphones one.

I haven't read all the posts here so it's possible I am saying something already said a million times. Anyway, to my view the way forums are now it's keeping me from searching interesting subjects or even wanting to go inside the main forums. It seems a big mess. The fact that the threads will run out of sight very fast indeed is demotivating. It was so much easier to participate when we had more specific subjects in subforums.

Anyway, I miss the quiet and peaceful master forum!

Chico

All sounds a promising compromise, but I would again add my voice to the need for a newbies section.

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Re. Newbies Forum
Thinking about it again, my point about making our forums a nicer place to inhabit is not actually connected to the question of a Newbies forum. It is simply a worthwhile goal in itself.
Points taken about the worth and functionality of a Noobs place. I'll discuss with mods and we'll take a decision.
Thanks for the feedback.

I just say "cheers for listening" to all those good peeps at SOS house

Quote Yago:

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I just say "cheers for listening" to all those good peeps at SOS house

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Hear Hear! (Even if you don't bring back 'Newbies' )