Just stumbled across this interesting advice from Bob Clearmountain on his mixthis.com site...

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Normally, I don't like to comment on how to record stuff, the general rule being "there are no rules". In this case, I'm making an exception as I've recently had to try to deal with guitar tracks recorded through The Pod (from Line 6). These are the most unmixable sounds I've ever encountered... PLEASE beg, borrow or steal a goddamn guitar amp!!

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Some food for thought there, I reckon!

Quote Mixedup:

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Just stumbled across this interesting advice from Bob Clearmountain on his mixthis.com site...

Quote:

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Normally, I don't like to comment on how to record stuff, the general rule being "there are no rules". In this case, I'm making an exception as I've recently had to try to deal with guitar tracks recorded through The Pod (from Line 6). These are the most unmixable sounds I've ever encountered... PLEASE beg, borrow or steal a goddamn guitar amp!!

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Some food for thought there, I reckon!

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Doesn't it always get almost religious with these arguments?

For what its worth I love playing my Marshall tube combo. However, if I'm demoing a tune or working late at night I'm quite happy to DI and use Amplitube 3. I once owned a Behringer V-amp 2 and enjoyed it before it blew up. I sometimes play the Iphone Amplitube thing. Nothing beats the feel of PLAYING a tube amp but on sounds only in a mix context (especially blended in with real recorded amp tones) the amp sims are alright. Just tools and tones, right?

When I worked full time in a studio a preacher brought in a church boy band (strange but I've seen stranger). Now, these guys had a producer and he was the soundman at their church.

He suggested the label (stranger even that they were signed!) buy each one of these guys Gibson LP USA and Fender USA, Jazz Bass USA and a processor. The Fender guy ended up with a POD XT Live, other guitarist Boss GT-8 and bass the bass version of the GT-8. At that point the "producer" set each one of these guys' tones and that was it - they weren't allowed to weak or do anything. So they walked in the studio with a rigid setup and I could do was record them the way they are. I tried to raise objection as the sound was rubbish but they were told that was their sound so they just wanted it to tape.

Ironically - I could do all I wanted with the board controls and they wouldn't care. So I tried to dial in something a bit more pleasant.

I tried that during mixing even firing some of these sounds through a speaker (band wasn't there). Still - nothing got up there where I would've liked to hear it.

On the other hand with the right tweaking I can coax some usable (wouldn't say grammy) sounds out of modelers. Recently recorded a track with Boss GT-6 and a lot of guys want to copy that lead tone.

Same thing with the POD - I could mimic Vai or Satriani but nothing that I was 100% happy with.

On the other hand - active pickups guitar (in this case BCRich) into a 5150 and a sm57 and I had the right channel taken care of on the last project I recorded. A lot of people asked me how I miked that amp

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www.descentintomadness.com

There is no food for thought.

I reckon I could provide some "difficult to mix" sounds on most pieces of kit.

Quit moaning and get on with the job.

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This time next week, who'll give a sh*t
http://www.podcastrevision.co.uk

Quote Bazza:

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There is no food for thought.

I reckon I could provide some "difficult to mix" sounds on most pieces of kit.

Quit moaning and get on with the job.

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He wasn't moaning, and neither was he slating all modeling, or even all Line 6 modeling; merely pointing out that the mix results he'd got when guitar parts had been tracked via a Pod could *always* have been significantly better had more care and effort been taken when tracking - ie miking an amp/cab - particularly given that demo takes often make their way on to the record. Good as some modeling stuff now is, I'm inclined to agree with him, and particularly for more exposed/prominent parts.

...and I'm guessing that someone with a discography like Clearmoumtaim's already knows how to 'get on with the job'.

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SOS Reviews Editor

Well I would have thought someone that experienced would have tracked the unprocessed sound simultaneously in case the sound was wrong, and then re-amped it later. Maybe he wasn't present at the tracking stage, or maybe he has no experience with amp modeling. In either case, as someone has already pointed out, it is possible to get "un-mixable" sounds out of any real amp as well. If they got such a bad sound out of the Pod they most likely would have done the same with the real amp. I have no trouble mixing mine.

I think Mr. Clearmountain should try one out himself at the tracking stage before he passes judgement. Far more likely it was set up wrong or maybe the guitarists sucked anyway!

i've been a huge clearmountain fan for nearly 30 years due to his work on bryan ferry's solo albums; he and bob ludwig have impeccable ears.

that said, i'd love to hear what the sounds were that sucked so bad; i don't have a pod, but i do have other boxes and almost always record directly into my DAW or recorder. i don't have a problem with the output, and i like to think i've got a fairly decent set of ears (and sennheisser hd600s to monitor with).

i don't play 'heavy' gtr (a la robin trower or gary moore), which if i did i'd probably pop for a good tube amp. if that was the type of track BC was complaining about, OK. but i tend to agree w/t other SoS'ers who've posted here that i'd first look to the skill o/t player and the skill o/t programmer o/t pod sounds.

will have to start checking out BC's blog though....

cheers,

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

Which gen Pod was it?
Fair enough, few of us with access to the kind of gear and environment he can command would choose modelers as the first port of call but so few of us can these days! Pods and their ilk are here and they are not going away and the technology is improving all the time.

I've not heard ONE guitar sim which sounds great. Good, sure. Usable even. But great? None of them - not even close.

And that's the point - if you're aiming for the best something can possibly be then Guitar Rig, Amp farm or whatever and etc will not cut it. For the same reason than orchestral sample libraries are "hey that's pretty good".... Because pretty good ain't "it".

I get a LOT of Guitar Rig and Line 6 stuff sent to me. Fortunately most people send me the DIs as well (as they've consulted with me before recording) and , by jupiter, then get re-amped very jolly quickly. UNLESS the sim sound is exactly what you want (and sometimes it is - even for me) they just do not cut it as real amps. You mix what you mix......

I've just checked out the original blog post, it was in 2007 and sparked a war on several forums lasting several years. I think I'll sit this one out and go make some music instead.

Being a mixing engineer And a guitar player I can understand what mr. Clearmountain has to say. I have an AMP FARM in my pro tools rig and I often use it. And often I run into the same problem as soon as I try to change the sound as I would do with a recording with mics and amp. My idea is that once you've got an impression of a sound in ampfarm or similar processor it acts much like a jpeg picture. It sounds ok until you try to get a bit more details from it. And at that point you get "boxes" a sort of digital boxed sound. So my advice is that if you really have to use it, just make the extra effort to get the sound esactly as you want if. And get it WITHOUT all that bass frequencies that all this simulators introduce to make you feel the air. I have to say that eleven (the avid guess on that matter) has a bit more attack and sound a bit more realistic but still a real amp beats virtual everyday. But you have to master the art of amp miking (almost a lost art this days).
I think that is a more general problem...

I found this quite fascinating. real vs modelled shootout It's a blind shootout between real and modelled amps. See (hear?) if you can really truly hear the difference.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Charles Darwin.

I played it differently. Didn't always pick out the real one but sure as hell picked out guitar rig EVERY time. Terrible stuff that there Git Rig.....

I picked out live 3 out of 6 times (both times for the Fender). That was listening on laptop speakers. For the times I got it wrong the live amp would have been my second choice.

This surprised me as I wasn't expecting to spot the real amp as often as I did. As I went through the test I was actually identifying the real amp by a process of elimination, spotting obvious traits of modelled sounds. That's probably because I'm more familiar with modelled amps that real ones. I was definitely trying to spot the real amp rather than saying which one I preferred. I think that I could only honestly judge the 'best' sound if I'd been told in advance that the different sounds were either all real or all modelled. Similar reason why I like my JMP-1 and Vox ToneLab pre-amp / modellers - they have a real valves in them so they must be good, right?

Chris

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http://www.random-thought.co.uk/

If you picked at random 3 out of 6 would be expected by chance alone.

Quote fletcher:

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If you picked at random 3 out of 6 would be expected by chance alone.

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Sorry but that's completely wrong. There were 5 different samples in 4 out of the 6 tests and 7 each in the other 2. That gives you 32 different ways to get three 'right' answers out of a total of 30,625 possible outcomes = 0.1% by chance alone.

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http://www.random-thought.co.uk/

oops, sorry hadn't taken a look, only read the thread.

also had forgotten a which will now have to be a

Quote Music Wolf:

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I picked out live 3 out of 6 times (both times for the Fender). That was listening on laptop speakers. For the times I got it wrong the live amp would have been my second choice.

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I go the same results 3 out of 6, and the real thing always there or thereabouts. However, I would probably have aimed for a different sound than any of those for the parts that were being played!

You have to admire what they set out to do there, but it's impossible to do this sort of test. There are simply too many variables in there for me that could affect how the amp sounds: guitar and mic choice(s) and mic position.

Certainly things have come on in the modelling field since BC wrote that bit of his blog. And I use modellers, too — mainly Softube VAR, VBR and the Two notes thing... but where volume and space and time aren't an issue, I'd still rather get a decent sound on an amp with a decent selection of mics any day of the week. And when I do that, I *do* find it much easier to mix. Perhaps that's just that I've spent the time thinking about the sound before I come to mix, whereas it's too easy to dial a preset on a modeller and think "It's near enough, we can fix that later..".

Quote narcoman:

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I've not heard ONE guitar sim which sounds great. Good, sure. Usable even. But great? None of them - not even close.

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There are some tracks on AC/DC's Black Ice album that use a modelling plug-in, I'd disagree wholeheartedly that it's impossible to get a "great sound" from a plug-in.

Quote Mixedup:

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Just stumbled across this interesting advice from Bob Clearmountain on his mixthis.com site...

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That comment is 10 years old.

Quote narcoman:

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I've not heard ONE guitar sim which sounds great. Good, sure. Usable even. But great? None of them - not even close.

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I'm inclined to agree; I never really liked digitally modelled sounds recorded directly. Now, having said that, I like to play my GT-8 through a good amp and splitting the difference, you know, miking it up it a good compromise. And also maybe it's just me but I have an aversion to a lot of the presets on those things, as I find them very careless.

Even with my GT-8, very quickly I saved a preset with no effects (almost a bypass) as my base sound so I could feel the direct effect through an amp before adjustting the tones.

Even after all this time and technology I always go back to a good guitar through a good amp and rarely hear anyhting as good via modelling. The tone isn't there and mostly I feel modelling does something inherently ugly to the sound. Something hard and unauthentic if left without a natural analogue electric stage.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Quote Mixedup:

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Just stumbled across this interesting advice from Bob Clearmountain on his mixthis.com site...

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That comment is 10 years old.

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Yes, I hadn't realised that when I first posted. The only date I could find on that page was that it had been updated in 2009, which isn't so long ago. I still reckon the subject's worth debating though... as evidenced by the other folk commenting here.

I've certainly heard some very suitable sounds in a mix that I know to have been achieved using modelling plug-ins/hardware. But that's a slightly different question than whether those sounds are easier to mix with or not. I've certainly had plenty of poorly tracked miked guitar cabs to mix, where I'd rather have had the DI. And I still reckon that were I sending a track for mixing I'd at least include the raw DI alongside the modelled sound if I were using a POD, VAR etc.

Quote narcoman:

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I played it differently. Didn't always pick out the real one but sure as hell picked out guitar rig EVERY time. Terrible stuff that there Git Rig.....

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But it sometimes just works in the right context. I even use Cubase's amp simulator from time to time and the same happens there too - sometimes it just 'works', regardless of its DNA, and no amount of 'authenticity' makes any meaningful difference.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Quote narcoman:

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I've not heard ONE guitar sim which sounds great. Good, sure. Usable even. But great? None of them - not even close.

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There are some tracks on AC/DC's Black Ice album that use a modelling plug-in, I'd disagree wholeheartedly that it's impossible to get a "great sound" from a plug-in.

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You can get a "useable " or even quite good sound. A great sound - no. There are no "great guitar sounds" on that particular record. Sounds okay - but not great and certainly not in the league of the sonic offerings of "High Voltage" or even a record I hate, "Back in black". BUT that doesn't change anything - ( I have my doubts about the amp sim claim, by the way.) - because there is an element of subjectivity in this debate.

There is also a big difference between great tones and showing it was used on a multi-million selling record. The too are entirely different things. I've made and mixed a fair few recordings in the millions league but I couldn't use that as evidence that my way would be better!!! It's a subjective debate, but you won't use an amp sim with me.

I've got £20k+ of amps sat here - from vintage to modern - and no sim comes anywhere near. That little thing of moving mic's inches at a time to change the tonality...all matters. I've heard moderately acceptable JCM800 or Soldano sounds from sims - but never a VoxAC or Fender twin or Matamp or early Orange or Farfisa or Constellation.... Rooms change amps a LOT.

When I'm recording a guitar it needs to have unique personality and you are as likely to get that from an amp sim as you are a skilled operator of VSL (clue - you can't).

As I say, useable and good. But never great.

Quote narcoman:

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I've not heard ONE guitar sim which sounds great. Good, sure. Usable even. But great? None of them - not even close.

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I've spent quite a bit of time evaluating the different ampsims lately.

Using a Blackstar HT-Dual to feed a cheap Line6 usb interface I would claim to get *real good* 'feel' and sound from most any of the sims.
They don't necessarily sound like whatever they claim to be emulating, but I was able to get really good clean (and on-the-verge-of-breakup using channels on the HT-Dual) using these. My favourite so far is the Randall amp i Overloud TH2.

TH2 even has a usable Roland Dimension chorus clone - nice!
I'm still using the Roland RE-201 plugin for Echo though; none of them does that well, imho (but the Guitar Rig RE201 clone is almost there:)

(I've not testet hi-gain sounds, as I don't play that kind of music :-)

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* wossname * ...if .sig's were fish, this would stink *

Well a pod or anything similar doesnt sound like this
59 bassman

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Matt
www.krcollective.org

darn right !!

First: I love POD's in all shapes and sizes. I Like the new Fractal and I use Amp Farm and Guitar Rig on a regular basis... So I thought I would suck at this. I mean, I thought I would guess none of the real amps in that test. I had 5 out of 6...
I still liked a lot of the other examples but I did not find it hard to spot the real ones. Most emulations sound to even in the low's, mid's and highs. Of the emulations I liked Amp Farm best.

No, but I don't have one

For the record I do prefer the real thing, but the point is calling the amp sim "un-mixable" is a bit unfair. The real amp, esp tube, is much more inspiring to use as a player, but sometimes we just have to work with what we have! It takes too long to pull the amp out and mic it up anyway - maybe worth it sometimes. However I have never felt the need to re-amp (with a real amp) yet. What's played is still the most important thing for how something sits in a mix - not that all engineers realise this

I haven't much experience with modellers, but I have to say that the little Fender Mustang I I bought a few months ago has really taken me by surprise.

I enjoy playing through it more than with any amp I've played through before (including JTM45, Princetons and other 'proper' amps). I rarely mess with the high gain models on it, but the Fender models are really nice. The Bassman growls, rasps and farts quite incredibly with a neck P90 and the gain up, and I'm pretty sure that if I'd have got that sound from a valve amp, I'd have been thinking "there's no way a modeller could do that". The cleans are also delightful, and I find the amp much more useful than the Fender HRD and Marshall JCM I have at my disposal.

It does, however, sound much better mic'd up than when solely using the amp & cab sims direct into the DAW.

Aled

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Bill Withers while Tom Waits, and Stan Getz

Quote fletcher:

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For the record I do prefer the real thing, but the point is calling the amp sim "un-mixable" is a bit unfair.

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Yes, I'd agree with that. Although I suppose there's always a risk of guitarists using a model preset that's drenched in compression and FX. Certainly the better plug-ins that I've used work best when you strip it down to the bare bones of preamp, power amp and cab - eg Softube, without all those effects to muddle things.

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It takes too long to pull the amp out and mic it up anyway - maybe worth it sometimes. However I have never felt the need to re-amp (with a real amp) yet.

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I don't agree with the first point. Yes, it might take time for an amp to warm up, but surely it's worth it if the result is noticeably better?! On the re-amping, I guess that's kinda like the 'I never felt the need to use the hardware version' sentiment about plug-ins — because what you hear is 'good enough'. It's only when you bother to make the effort that you discover 'good enough' can be turned into 'bloody brilliant' that you realise what you're missing!

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What's played is still the most important thing for how something sits in a mix - not that all engineers realise this

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Can't argue with that. The worst thing in the world is a mediocre turd with polished sonics that half-way kids you into thinking it's a good song! Give me a shitty recording of a great performance over that any day of the week.

Quote Matt Houghton:

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...and I'm guessing that someone with a discography like Clearmoumtaim's already knows how to 'get on with the job'.

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Quite. Let's just take a minute here and remember that Clearmountain was responsible for a lot of Chic records. Great mixes on those and a fantastic guitar sound... of course it helps that Nile Rodgers is a great guitarist also.

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I'm All Ears.

Gees, I love how everyone thinks they know better than Bob. How many grammys is it he's won now? Its just a guess, but I reckon noone on this thread has any. Just sayin.

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Daniel Davis
Edinburgh Recording Studio Windmill Sound

Quote Daniel Davis:

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How many grammys is it he's won now? Its just a guess, but I reckon noone on this thread has any. Just sayin.

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I'm not entirely sure, but you might be wrong.

For the record, I'm in no way claiming to know better than BC. My post was just a little aside stating how impressed I am with my little Mustang. It was a bit of a pointless post really!

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Bill Withers while Tom Waits, and Stan Getz

Edited by Ramirez (08/06/11 03:03 PM)

For me it's not just setting it up - it's my live rig and has to be moved downstairs from it's cupboard (head and cab). Then set up/warmed up, then mic'd up, then the headphones and the mix levels, then explain to the wife why she can't use the living room and has to keep quiet for an undisclosed amount of time! Followed by putting it all away again of course. It better be a good sound after all that!

Or just use the Pod......

I'm not just being lazy, it's only a project studio - well corner of my living room! Mainly used for getting ideas down. I would like to get a small valve amp just for recording one day, but I need a new acoustic first, sigh

Quote Daniel Davis:

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Gees, I love how everyone thinks they know better than Bob. How many grammys is it he's won now? Its just a guess, but I reckon noone on this thread has any. Just sayin.

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He's won one and nominated for four.

You'd be wrong if you think no-one here has been nominated or won a Grammy or indeed other awards.


Actually I agree with Bob - Although the amp sims may be perfectly mixable and usable in many modern styles - try doing a proper old sounding blues track or a seventies funk track and watch them become completely useless. OR try doing a proper QOTSA style record - no chance.

Quote ken long:

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Quote Matt Houghton:

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...and I'm guessing that someone with a discography like Clearmoumtaim's already knows how to 'get on with the job'.

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Quite. Let's just take a minute here and remember that Clearmountain was responsible for a lot of Chic records. Great mixes on those and a fantastic guitar sound... of course it helps that Nile Rodgers is a great guitarist also.

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I seem to recall Nile Rodgers saying that he tended to DI his guitar on the Chic records.

For myself, I have to admit to defaulting to the ancient freeware Simulanalog Guitar Suite JCM900 VST plugin for almost all of my distorted rhythm sounds when recording. I actually just got rid of my POD, because I realised that I simply didn't enjoy the sound anymore. Wouldn't mind checking out the HD range.

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"We knocked on the doors of Hell's darker chambers..." But no-one answered, so we went to the pub instead.

Quote Phil Reynolds:

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I seem to recall Nile Rodgers saying that he tended to DI his guitar on the Chic records.

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He did indeed - but did ya seen what he DI'd into? A unidyne console onto an MCI tape machine ....! that's as near a holy grail for "that sound" as ya can get !

Quote narcoman:

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As I say, useable and good. But never great.

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Remind me to tell Brendan O'Brien that his guitar sounds are merely "useable", I'm sure the Boss and Slash will drop him like a hot potato when they read your critique.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Quote narcoman:

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As I say, useable and good. But never great.

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Remind me to tell Brendan O'Brien that his guitar sounds are merely "useable", I'm sure the Boss and Slash will drop him like a hot potato when they read your critique.

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Nah, I bet they won't... but you've highlighted in that post for me that what people consider a great guitar sound is always a question of taste.

Accomplished and successful as he is, I can't see anything in O'Brien's discog as a producer that makes me think "wow, that's what a guitar should sound like". I may get shot down in flames for saying that; I'm sure plenty of people feel differently... but most of those records leave me cold (I do 'get' the sound, I just don't feel it).

...and where things are a question of taste and different opinions, I guess you'll never get concensus.

I still say, though, give me my Twin and a model of a Twin to play with and 99 times out of 100 I'll get a much better/more useful sound from the real thing.

I'm slightly reluctant to weigh in on this for various reasons. But anyway...

IN MY OPINION

I totally agree with Bob. Simulated guitar sounds are terrible to mix. They just wont 'come forward' properly. It's as if they dont move the cone as much as a speaker captured with a mic. And for me there's the rub. It's not the simulation of the amp that's so wrong (although I do believe a great real amp is better than a great simulated one). Because if you run simulated sounds at high level into a real cab you can get sounds that work properly. OK they might not be quite what you expect...They might in some cases be better but the component we dont yet simulate properly is the speaker, and to be more specific the speaker distortion. The difference is that with the real speaker, as it distorts, in addition to distortion we get a limiting. And the charachter of this limiting is that it seems to allow highs, mids and lows of the sound to push up against the end stops. To align. To glue toghether.

I've recently been playing around with running the unsimulated output of a dummy load connected to a valve head into speaker impulse responses. Invariably my first reaction is 'wow this sounds good, It's so cool that we can do this'. And the second I then switch out the real cab I feel a wave of disappointment as I realise how much better it is. Every time. I believe the problem is probably to do with the fact that the sine sweep just cant make the speaker extrude in the right way.

Of course this is a bugger, because the one thing a lot of us want to do a lot of the time is get a really great 'silent' guitar sound. My experience of this is that at the moment at least, you can't.

But I do believe we will see this as and when people turn increasingly clever technology at the problem of speaker simulation rather than amp simulation. I was rather hoping Anamod might have a crack at it. I did email them about it.

NB. I'm not saying that people don't use these sounds on records. Fake amp to real speaker gets used a lot and has done since the 80's. Fake amp with simulated speaker gets used too. But I agree with Narcoman...These sounds are not great. I don't believe they're on Slash's record, put it that way.

J

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www.jackruston.com

the other thing that no modelling device can replicate , is the acoustic linkage between a real amp/cab and the instrument itself... it's one reason why i always ALWAYS play in the room with the amp..... (obviously with ear defenders, over in ear monitors, or high isolation cans of some sort,.... ) (or failing that, run the main monitoring system real hard in the control room, but even that is just not the same.... )



that connection between the speaker and the instrument body&strings affects not just the tone, but the way you play,..... no pod, or v-amp, or motherload system does anything to replicate it, nor could they..... it's a very directly , fundamentally physical thing.... is different for every guitar, and varies depending on position relative to the speaker and the room you're in.... that's why some "virtuoso" type people spend time in sound checks , looking for the sweet spots on the stage, and marking them.... so they can get that linkage to work with them in their performance.... and the same applies to studio playing...... or it should at any rate.....



this may not necessarily relate to things being "unmixable" but it definitely does relate to the acquisition a "GREAT" recording of a performance, and indeed , simply quality the performance itself...

Quote Jack Ruston:

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I totally agree with Bob. Simulated guitar sounds are terrible to mix.

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You're not agreeing with Bob though, Bob's comments were made 10 years ago, on 1st generation modelling hardware, so you're comparing apples with oranges.

There are plenty of commercial releases that show that these guitar plug-ins work, and do sound good, as well as the plethora of YouTube demos by both professionals and home enthusiasts alike, so the notion that they're simply "usable" is, quite frankly, laughable. For the record, I have Twin, a Bassman and an Orange Thunderverb amongst other amps, so I know what a great sound is, and, I'm not biased towards plug-ins either.

Quote Jack Ruston:

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I don't believe they're on Slash's record, put it that way.

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There we have it.

Modelling is only "usable" at best, and Brendan's a liar; I think we can lock this topic now that we've sorted all that out.

my my, aren't we a grumpy wheelie

FWIW, i think Jack's personal opinions are at least worth listening to....

and usually bang on the money..... and his work load and client base bear out the results.

i don't ALWAYS agree with him, but it's rare, and usually down to a personal preference choice rather than an absolute....

Look, I put 'IN MY OPINION' in caps for a reason. This is a controversial issue which is why I was reluctant to get involved. I fully respect your experience with this technology. For what I do, I don't prefer it. You may find that for what you do it's every bit as good. I would never claim that you're wrong. Its a matter of subjective opinion. Yours is every bit as valid as mine and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.

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www.jackruston.com

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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There are plenty of commercial releases that show that these guitar plug-ins work, and do sound good, as well as the plethora of YouTube demos by both professionals and home enthusiasts alike, so the notion that they're simply "usable" is, quite frankly, laughable. For the record, I have Twin, a Bassman and an Orange Thunderverb amongst other amps, so I know what a great sound is, and, I'm not biased towards plug-ins either.

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Again - the thread mentioned great. All sims miss

1. being in a room - even when they have it it's a convolution and that's not the same. I move my amps around the room to make them sound different - yes even spot mic'ing.
2. different speaker voicing - Of the many amps I have each speaker sounds different. Plugins "model" a handful
3. different mics - let's not get started on mic modelling!
4. how you mic it. I do all kinds of cool stuff to get QOTSA or Johnny Cash tones! None of it doable in a sim

They are merely "usable". Nothing laughable about it. Guitar Rig is my pet hate - nothing, I mean nothing, comes out of that without a fekking horrible 3k hype. Nasty.

We're talking about GREAT guitar sound here - things that make your jaw drop..... but as Jack says it is subjective. No sims here. That simple.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Quote narcoman:

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As I say, useable and good. But never great.

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Remind me to tell Brendan O'Brien that his guitar sounds are merely "useable", I'm sure the Boss and Slash will drop him like a hot potato when they read your critique.

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Well I've sold more product than him. ..... although not rock records

and _ahem - a response to your ACDC ITB 'ness

www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan09/articles/itfraser.htm


So. Not only were those tones from a classic mic' up job, I still don't like em!!! . Cream on your pie?

Dear loves,

I've mixed some of the biggest soundtracks around and in that role I've been sent all manner of stuff. Some of it sounds an utter disgrace when it gets here - badly set up samples and the like. Now - using a bit of turd polishing and hard work I make some of these sonic disasters (but often compositional wonders) sound a hell of lot more "it" than they did when they arrived. That goes for "guitar rigs" and "amp farms" too. They're hard work to make them shine - especially if the recording team have gone to the bother of recoding a great drum sound fer real.....

If the sessions allow I've taken the speaker sims off and played them out through amps in a room (re-amping baby, re-amping).

When guitars get sent from decent players, with decent recordists and production crew in charge - they're just "push the faders up an the records there". Same with real drums against BFD . Same with a real hammond versus a Korg. You cut the corners early on - you make my life harder and I charge you more.

As Jack says - it's obviously subjective and this is MY opinion. My opinion is the only one I have and it's the one that earns me money.


Here's a little reality trip : I endorse a few products out there, most interestingly a well known brand of pretty decent plugins. I go on about how they're the bees knees in my promo duties. Now - here is the rub. I don't actually use them that much. Why? Cuz I've access to better most often. "But Narco - you git, why endorse it then?".

"Because, in the sad corporate world we live in", replied a now very uncomfortable Narco, "it gets my name into the ears of many of those decision makers out there in "we need our stuff mixing" land.

Or do you think CLA REALLY thinks the Waves plugins are awesome? .... welcome to the world of commerce......

Quote narcoman:

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and _ahem - a response to your ACDC ITB 'ness

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So. Not only were those tones from a classic mic' up job, I still don't like em!!! . Cream on your pie?

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No, not at all, and I think you'll find that's wrong; the reason I know modelling was used is quite simple, Angus told me. I say he told me, he told anyone that has seen the Live @ River Plates DVD.

I'd also ask some questions regarding "great guitar sounds":

1. It's purely personal, one mans water etc. A great sound to me is Nile Rodgers 70's Chic recordings, but I'd say that it you were to ask 10 respected guitarists to quantify a "great sound" they'd all say something different.
2. The production of modern music is as much part of the trend as the musicality itself, and therefore who exactly is listening out for these "great guitar sounds".

As an example, I can still listen to the 20 year old "The Extremist" and admire the "great guitar sound", in the same way that I can listen to the recent Stones record and deteste their production values.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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I'd also ask some questions regarding "great guitar sounds":

1. It's purely personal, one mans water etc. A great sound to me is Nile Rodgers 70's Chic recordings, but I'd say that it you were to ask 10 respected guitarists to quantify a "great sound" they'd all say something different.
2. The production of modern music is as much part of the trend as the musicality itself, and therefore who exactly is listening out for these "great guitar sounds".

As an example, I can still listen to the 20 year old "The Extremist" and admire the "great guitar sound", in the same way that I can listen to the recent Stones record and deteste their production values.

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Totally right on!!!

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Quote narcoman:

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and _ahem - a response to your ACDC ITB 'ness

<a href="/sos/jan09/articles/itfraser.htm" target="_blank">www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan09/articles/itfraser.htm</a>


So. Not only were those tones from a classic mic' up job, I still don't like em!!! . Cream on your pie?

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No, not at all, and I think you'll find that's wrong; the reason I know modelling was used is quite simple, Angus told me. I say he told me, he told anyone that has seen the Live @ River Plates DVD.

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not seen it. Bu tI'll check it.... sure he wasn't taking the piss?

Quote narcoman:

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not seen it. Bu tI'll check it.... sure he wasn't taking the piss?

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Granted, it's widely accepted that Angus isn't playing with a full set of marbles these days, Malcolm even less so.......

Maybe they reamped Angus' stuff after he passed out?

I've done some records where we kept everything via DI while the musician was there and went nuts afterwards. Right now I am working on a commmercial CD and all the lead guitars are actually ending up on sims and they sound great, but again we're talking that they have to cut over several layers of live miked guitars.

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www.descentintomadness.com

i have to add to my earlier reply on this topic (in which i defended direct recording of FX units, though not necessarily amp sims, which i don't really use). having been watching a bunch of YouTube vids of 60s and 70s rock bands like Humble Pie, Free, and Budgie, if that's the guitar sound you're after, there really is no substitute for playing a good guitar in front of loud amp. the resonance and re-inforcement of the sustain between the amp and the guitar strings is a massive effect that i doubt any IIR/FIR digital filter can capture, especially since it's so dependent on the particular guitarist's technique and preferences. you can use your fretting fingers like individual envelope generators (synth-speak, for all our guitar-only members) and watching masters like paul kossoff, steve marriot, and the guy from budgie is just inspiring. not enough to go buy a big stack and blow my hearing out but it's more tempting now than it was before. fortunately for me (and my neighbors and the local police) i don't really play that kind of guitar, but man i love the sound!

cheers,

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"