I hope somebody can help me, I'm looking to setup a live venue. I'll be hiring staff capable of 'doing' the sound and lights etc, so I don't need to know what to do with this kind of thing (sorry, I don't mean to sound ike I'm demeaning your professions!). I will be involved in the buying of the equipment at the outset though. My problem, and this is where I hope you guys can help, is that I don't know what I need.

I have a basic idea, in that I'll need:
A drum kit
a mixing deck
4-5 microphones
two commercial size speakers
1-2 strobe lights
1 red/green/blue light
a lighting board
cables etc.

What I'm asking is can somebody tell me the basics I'll need in order to have bands play in my venue?

I'm being told that I need a 24 channel mixing deck. The ones I've looked at have between 4 and 8 microphone inputs and a series of sliders (obviously the channels) but I don't know whether I need 24, 48 or what!!! I want to be buying these things with at least a rudamentary knowledge of what I'm talking about, and so if somebody can give me an idea of the basic essentials and the 'nice to haves', I would be really grateful.

For example, I've been told I need a compressor "to prevent guitarists playing loud solos", was how it was explained to me. I thought that the mixer was for this. My understanding was that you mix the levels of the inputs to where you want them to be.

Advice would be hugely appreciated. Thanks in advance.

What size and capacity is the venue likely to be? And what kind of bands are you looking to have play??

Thanks for the quick response.

The venue isn't huge. The stage will be big enough for a 4-6 piece band. The venue will hold around 200-300. We're looking to put on rock bands, but I think the maximum volume is 18db (I don't know what that compares to in the real world).

Quote TimFoster:

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Thanks for the quick response.
...but I think the maximum volume is 18db (I don't know what that compares to in the real world).

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Sorry, I think I meant 80db, not 18. Isn't that talking volume????

Well for 200-300 people you'll need 2 subs and 2 full ways and at least 3000 watts of amp.
And at least 600 watts of monitors,
A crossover
You'll probably get away with a 16 channel desk with 4 aux sends,
You won't 'need' compression but it is useful, the behringer 4 channel comp is great live, and only £80ish
Get a few graphic EQ's for FOH and monitors
You'll need more than 4-5 mics. 4-5 SM58s or e385s, a kick drum mic, 4-5 SM57's, 3 clip on drum mics, 2 pencil condenser mics (for unusual instruments that pop up) and 3 DI's for bass and acoustic.
You'll need about 50m of 16/6 multicore
and 16 10m mic cables

Bands usually bring their own stuff, so don't bother with drums.

I don't know about lights but hopefully someone else will

Well this is a set up that will get the best sound for the type of venue you described from my experience.
It will set you back about £5000-£10000 depending on the quality of gear you get, but for a popular venue, its money well spent

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Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.

Whoever set that dB requirement needs to stand outside next to a busy road with a dB meter...
Seriously, you need to shown them in real world terms what the volume level they will be dictating can sound like.
95-100dB is more reasonable a level for an amplified band.

Anyway onto the kit...

24 channels may be a bit restrictive, especially for a 6 piece band (I work with a five piece who use 30 channels). 32 could be a better bet. Better too many channels than too few. Since you omitted any financial constraints, lets assume that you have a decent budget!

Desks can start at very little money and go on through the price ranges up to a considerable amount and then some!

Allen & Heath are a very reputable make and you'll find it is talked about in a good light on this very board.
Soundcraft usually gets mentioned in the same breath.

Ideally, the desk should have 32 mic input channels, each with a 4 band EQ (both mids being sweepable), at least 6 aux outs, and 8 sub groups (4 is a minimum, but can be restrictive).

As for mics, you would probably need more than that, especially if you intend on putting drums through the PA.
There are some good drum mic sets around; AKG, Shure, Audix, even t.Bone and Samson. It's all down to cost.

For vocal mics, you couldn't go too far wrong with a selection of SM57s and 58s.
Don't forget, all the mics will need mic stands and cables...!

Then there are DI boxes. Handy things for putting keyboards and the like into so that their outputs levels are correct for the journey to the desk. You will be using a snake from the stage to the mixer, no? All sorts of makes here, BSS, Radial, Klark Teknik, EMO and Behringer.

You could probably forget about providing a drum kit.
I don't think I know a single drummer who doesn't have his own kit. In fact, I don't think I know one that would willingly use a house kit, unless there was no other choice.

Also, if you are going to go down that route, you should consider providing guitar amps. Then take out an account with your local repair shop and buy shares in Marshall! As with drummers, guitarists can be precious about their kit, as it is what makes their 'sound'.

House kit can be open to abuse, as it does not belong to the band and they know they will be far away before you realise that it has been damaged...

Having only two PA speakers might not be enough. You may need bass bins. Self powered or seperate amps, is your deicison. If you go with the seperate amps, you will need a crossover. You will definatley need some monitor wedges on the stage.

Last up are processors. A compressor can help to even out the levels of a guitarist and prevent peaks from being too loud (it's quicker than using the fader and is one less thing to worry about when mixing a full 32 channels). You could look to get a couple of four channel units, which should be enough. You could probably benefit from some gates as well. Again, a couple of four channel units, should be fine, especially for the drum kit.
Then there's EQ. You should put a dual channel 31 band graphic between the desk and the PA (if you're doing it properly, there should have two, one set up for the room, that is locked away and can't be touched, and the other available to the sound engineer). There should also be a 31 band graphic on all of the monitor channels.
Then there are FX processors. You should look to get at least two. These will provide reverb and echo effects, as well as other things. Yamaha SPX1000, 2000, the new Lexicon MX range, etc.
Ideally, you should have one set as a reverb and the other for ad hoc effects. Make sure that they have a tap delay feature.
Oh, and make sure you have some sort of patchbay wired up so that the compressors, etc can be patched to channels as required.

As for lighting, that's another world, literally.
Make sure your building has seperate mains circuits for lighting (32 amp, etc). What kind of system are you after?
What you describe seems to be a basic colour wash. You could add to that by getting in some active lighting, moving heads (Abstract VRX, etc), smoke machines, etc. Make sure everything is DMX controllable.

Now, virtually all of that stuff is in the 'nice to have' category.

You could get away with a couple of PA speakers, a 12 channel desk, 4 PAR56 cans and then tell the bands that come in to provide the rest.

It's up to you how far you want to take it.

HTH.

Stu.

how about this (active system, the amps inside the speaker boxes):

http://www.thomann.de/gb/db_technologies_qls152_fourty_line_system.htm

and 4 of these @ 90 quid each:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_ma120_mk_ii.htm


add mixer, fx & mics etc

Pay a visit to a few similar venues with good reputations and see what they have. Talk to people who work at them and who perform at them and see what their experiences are.

I suspect that the PA's that you've seen at similar venues are actually more complex than they may first appear. Often you may only be able to see two cabinets either side of the stage as the bass speakers, which provide the real grunt for the system, are hidden below the stage. And the cabinets that you CAN see are more sophisticated than the average budget horn + driver PA cab.

What sort of bands are you expecting to book at your venue? If you are dealing with touring bands then they will expect a certain standard of gear and tour riders will often state that certain brands of gear are not to be provided.

Do you have any experienced PA installation companies locally? They may be able to help you come up with a realistic budget.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Dr Whom:

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and 4 of these @ 90 quid each:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_ma120_mk_ii.htm

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Please don't skimp on monitors. Many venues think that they can get away with just a couple of boxes like this - that's why I've taken to carting around our own monitors wherever we gig now.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

There's been a lot of sense spoken thus far, but few caveats...

Please don't spec your FOH system by wattage - when you get the local providers to come and quote, specify dB at the desk - and budget for having the FOH mix position somewhere sensible. Aim for 110dB at the desk without distortion/clipping.

Next, I'd suggest finding the technical riders of bands you'd like to have playing at your venue. You'll see, there, that they'll spec up the likes of Midas and maybe Digico for mixing desks. Given your capacity, they're both non-starters, but the likes of Allen and Heath GL2800/GL3800 series will be acceptable to most bands.

Similarly, you absolutely will need at least four channels of gates and eight of compression - and names like Drawmer, BSS, DBX and so on will crop up. So will Behringer, but don't be tempted - as good as they are, they scream "low end" to anyone in the know.

Monitors-wise, you cannot have enough returns. While touring bands will specify a dedicated monitor desk, it's not cost efective for day-to-day running. However, make sure that the snake you get installed has a split output for the monitor desk when you need to hire one in (and you will).

budget on at least 300 watts per wedge and two wedges per performer - and also budget for a channel of 31 band graphic eq per wedge pair.

For the drummer, however, you're going to need something more beefy - effectively a mini PA - they'll want to hear their kit, the bass guitar and more - all at full frequency range.

None of this will be cheap - and we haven't even looked at mics and stands and cables yet...

Buy right, and you'll buy once. Buy cheap, and you'll be replacing very quickly.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

To be honest your money might be better spent hiring an expert for a few hours to make these discisions with you. It will be a good investment, look for someone who is the head technitian at other venues? Good look anyway.

got to agree with Kristafon on this one, if you had a little familiarity with the nuts and bolts of PA for live bands and could spend lots of time to go through it, then you could spec it on your own. get friendly with a working live engineer and outline what you think you want; then with his help send a brief to several PA companies to either supply or supply and install a system.

ultimately, it depends on the level of band (technically, artistically and popularity) to define sensibly what you need (try and get the tech-spec from some bands you intend to book and go through them with the sound engineer). Almost certainly it will be more expensive than you think to put in a good system; if you underspec to the level of act you wish to book, you will end up having to hire in or your venue will suffer for it by not being up to standard.

i hope i haven't put you off, there is some good advice in this thread, but it is difficult to make a living from live music and you have to do it well to stand out from the crowd...

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planet nine
lincoln, uk.

Quote Nathan:

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it is difficult to make a living from live music and you have to do it well to stand out from the crowd...

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Exactly - and you've got to be able to book the crowd-pullers. Hire charges can reduce a potentially profitable event to barely break-even (as I know only too well) if you've underspecc'ed the kit and have to get higher end stuff in.

F'rinstance, local bands will tend to be happy if they get to play, and don't really care what the gear is, as long as it's a) loud and b) they can hear themselves via monitors.

Once they're touring, though, and carry their own engineer, things will change. The engineer will have definite preferences, and more than likely won't be carrying too much of his own kit. These wil be reflected in the tech rider, and although you can usually negotiate with the engineer, there's a level below which they won't go.

So, the list of no-nos usually includes:
Behringer - anything(sad, but true)
Mackie -desks, FOH(not so sad,just as true)
Peavey - Speakers (dunno why, but frequently dissed)
Phonic, Citronic (basically anything-onic) - perceived as Disco/MI, not pro-audio.

The list of "We wants" generally includes
Midas Heritage(in their dreams for a 300 capacity venue)
Digico D1/D5 (se above)
Klark Teknik, BSS, for outboard (yup - nice kit, but not cheap)

More sensibly, the "we will accept" list usually includes:
Allen and Heath GL2800 and above (good kit)
Soundcraft medium format consoles (but not Spirit)
More or less anything Lexicon or DBX, Yamaha for FX and outboard

In general, I've found that if the FOH is encased in plastic, it won't be acceptable, and that touring engineers tend towards being very reasonable blokes who understand that hiring in quarter of a million quid's worth of kit for a 300 capacity venue is bordering on insanity - not that the same can be said of tour managers, mind.

Nathan has it about right - the OP needs to get someone in who knows the game and who can spec a system up that will give the best VFM and longevity and wil adapt to the greatest spread of band types.

If the OP is local (ish) to me, I'd be happy to help...

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

If you're getting people in to opperate the equipment then get them on board now to help with sorting out the gear.

Woahh!!!

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I'm even more confused than before now.

To answer some of the questions, budget is very important. We are on a tight budget. However, the caveat to that is that we're based in Mexico and so the prices you guys pay in Europe and the US, are much higher that those here. Mixing decks are in the range of $4000MXN (£200). Getting better quality equipment from Europe or the US would be great, but time and importation costs make it a non-starter. We're due to open in the middle of December.

I accept that if we buy better equipment, we'll only need to buy it once, but with the opening looming and budget constraints, we need to go with what we can get. I'm happy to replace stuff with better equipment when time (and money) allows.

A few people have said that we shouldn't buy drums. Unfortunately, it isn't practical for bands to bring their own drums. I agree that in an ideal world, the bands will bring all their own gear, but the bands we're booking aren't in that league. Most will be small, local bands. We're also talking to a number of unsigned bands from the UK and US. These obviously won't be able to bring drum kits. Even the bands that come from the other side of the Mexico won't be able to bring drum kits. Travel in Mexico is predominantly by bus, and so lugging a drum kit on a 12 hour bus journey just isn't going to happen. Obviously bands will be bringing their guitars, but we'll have to provide drum kits. We've been warned off buying keyboards for the same reason. I guess that bands can bring a keyboard easier than a set of drums.

As to the other kit, I had a quote this morning. I think what I need to know is what can I do without for now. the quote seems to be incredibly high. I accept that all this stuff would be great and give us a very professional setup, but we have to be realistic. Because I'm English, all the suppliers here automatically double the price of everything and so I can't get any kind of reliable advice from those in the know here.

For example in the list below, they quote for 10 mics plus a drum mic kit. Our stage isn't nearly big enough for 10 plus drums, so I'm fairly comfortable that we can lose some of these, but what about the other stuff? What about the speakers?? 3 subwoofers and 8 speakers/amps? is this a must or can we do with less?

They're listing the following:
100m x Polarised cable (model POP18)
100m x prosound cable for mics (PMC-1100)
3 x Bafle subwoofer 500w (JRX1)
8 x Bafle Amps Peavey with 15" speakers (NEO 15P)
8 x mic stands (MS7700B)
3 x Whirlwind direct passive boxes (IMP-2)
2 x RapCo Subsnake with 8 channels 10m long (33SB82)
2 x Behringer Monitors (MS-16)
30 x Switchcraft connectors XLR (female) (SAAA3FZ)
30 x Switchcraft connectors XLR (male) (SAAA3MZ)
1 x Mapex drum kit with hi-hat (MB5255ASE-PB)
1 x Behringer 32 channel mixing deck (SL3242FX-PRO)
2 x Stereo Equalisers with 31 bands per channel 2 spaces (231)
1 x Denon CD player with MP3 capability (DN-D4500)
1 x System rack
1 x Shure drum mic kit with 4 mics & 2 condensors
4 x Shure dynamic mics for vocals (PG48-QTR)
6 x Shure dynamic mics with cables (PG57-XLR)
2 x speaker supports (79131)

Again, any advice is greatly appreciated.

Also, knowing what kit we have (or will have) if any of you guys are in bands and would like to play a weekend gig in Mexico, let me know. Having said that, now that you know I want to cut the costs to the bare minimum, I suspect you'll want to stear clear!!

Tim,
That is not a great spec to begin with, however I understand your position. I also think much of the advice here so far has been misleading as people have assumed the acts will be somewhat 'bigger' than local bands etc.

It is hard to know what to advise without knowing the local market, however those Behringer monitors (MS-16) are NOT stage monitors, they're more equivalent to small cheap home hifi speakers. Why are they on the list?? Stage monitors are basically compact PA speakers in a wedge shape so you should be looking at 10" loudspeaker drivers as the absolute minimum, with a power handling in RMS of at least 200 watts. each (although as mentioned above, watts is only a rough guide to volume).

I assume Bafle is a local brand, can't comment on the quality - probably not that great though. I assume US kit is more easily available in Mexico than European/Jap stuff. For that reason alone, look at Peavey and Mackie where possible. Peavey stuff, while not the best, is very tolerant of abuse in my experience.

I don't think for the kind of thing you are doing, that a 32 mic input desk is necessary. I would say that you could get away with 12 mic inputs plus a couple of stereo line inputs (desk manufacturers like to exaggerate total channel number so be careful!). The reason I say 12 is that there are desks of this format which fit a compact 19" rackmount frame which is handy.

Fewer, higher quality mics will be more useful than lots of cheap ones. The Shure mics on the spec are the budget range and are in my experience awful mics. Bad mics cause you lots of problems with sound quality and with feedback, it is not an area to skimp on! I would suggest 3x Shure SM58 and 5x Shure SM57, in fact controversially perhaps I would also suggest using SM57s on the drums, so maybe 3 more of these too. SM57s are very versatile, they work well on most instruments and on vocals too.

3 DI boxes is realistic. You can always run a keyboard, even if DI-ed, into a balanced line input on the desk if you have the appropriate adaptor plugs.

The amount of cable required is very dependent on venue size, mix position and stage size, Make sure you only buy what you need, plus a couple of spare mic cables. And make sure they're clearly labelled with the venue name or they will walk! Same applies to mics.

Good luck getting it all sorted - are there any locals who could act as a 3rd party to negotiate better prices?

I'm not going to post anything directly into this thread as every time I do someone tells me I'm an idiot for not specifying their favourite bit of kit.

But if you want any advice from someone who equipped a 1200 capacity and 400 capacity venue with sound, lights and visual equipment then PM me.

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Gear List: reverse only.

OK, that list is a start, but it could do with tweaking.

You have a 32 channel desk listed, but only 16 channels of snake. Don't forget that you also need to send sound to the stage from the desk as well (for monitors).
The normal configuration for that would be a 32/8 snake. 32 channels to the desk and 8 coming back. Essentially it is 40 channel. That will allow for main output L+R and up to 6 aux outputs. Is 10m long enough? That's only 30 feet. If the snake has to go around things and along the edge of the room to the desk, you could find yourself short. Measure the distance and buy accordingly, but allow some spare. Most snakes come in 30m lengths (as well as 50m and 100m), which should be adequate for most venues.

I would question the choice of desk itself. For not much more than that, you can get a Yamaha MG32/14FX (they do a MG24/14FX as well). This has two built in SPX quality FX units. Much better than the Behringer.

As for the mics, as mentioned above, the PG series are Shure's bargain basement series. You can't go too far wrong with the SM57, SM58 combination mentioned above as well. OK, so they are a bit more expensive, but they are pretty much the industry standard for live mics. If you use SM57s for drums mics, don't forget the stands. The Shure kit has mounting clips so you won't need stands.

Speaking of which, you have 10 mics listed (aside from the drum mics), but only 8 mic stands. How are you going to position the last two mics?

Also, you have 8 x 15" speakers listed but only two stands. Are you floor stacking the remaining 6? Do it safely if you do!

Personally, I try to avoid 15" speakers for full range stuff. They can handle the bass frequencies, but because of that, they don't respond as well at the higher ones. I'd personally go for 12" ones. 15" is OK for subwoofers, but 18" ones can be better as they shift more air.

Moving on, you seem to have listed enough XLR connectors for 15 mic cables. You have 16 mics on the list. You are one cable short. That assumes that every cable is working all the time. Buy enough for half a dozen or so spares. If a lead breaks during a gig, simply put it to one side and use a spare. Fix the broken one the next day.

That also kind of assumes that you have a soldering iron and know how to use it. In the same vein, a cable tester would be advisable, even if you don't do your own soldering. It is a cheap and handy diagnostic tool. Behringer do a decent one for not a lot of money.

There is also an assumption that the visiting bands will be bringing their own jack cables. You would be better off getting a second reel of cable and making up some jack to jack leads as well as the spare XLRs...

The monitors listed are totally unsuitable for the reasons listed earlier.
This is an example of what a stage montior should look like:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_ma1520_mkii.htm

They are called wedges because of their shape.
You have been spec'd something little more than hi-fi speakers.

Why only 2? If you have a full band playing, I would have thought 4 would be more practical. With the right mixer, you can send a different mix to each of the 4 wedges. Important, as singers like to hear different things to bass players, etc. You will need two additional 2 x 31 band graphic EQs for these monitors as well, so that feedback can be controlled.
OK, so that's where the 8 speakers come into it. Maybe some of them have been earmarked for the stage...

As you can see with the cable and stands, there are some very basic ommisions from the list that will leave you short from day one.
Things like the mixer and speaker types are merely recommendations, but you find it a lot easier to make changes now before they are installed.

HTH.

Stu.

P.S. You haven't mentioned lights...
P.P.S. No compressors or gates appear to be listed either...

Just so you know, that behringer desk is 24 mic channels, not 32....and it's godawful even for a behringer desk.

And someone suggested running a di into a line input i think...where does the phantome power come from then eh (without something silly like an external supply)?

Lights should be something like 8x par56 or 8x par64 and a simple controller/dimmer unit. (depending on availiable power)

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Cheers, Ben Gummery, Techie

Edited by lightman (27/11/07 10:08 AM)

Hmm - I think you really need to find someone local who can help. Maybe it would be worth hiring your sound engineer now and have him sort out the PA as his/her first job.

There are things like if you are going for the Shure PG mics rather than the real thing then I would look for the equivalent of Thomman T-Bone mics in your area. They're just rebranded Chinese mics so you ought to be able to find them.

Are there any PA companies that might sell you some used gear? This is a very good way to find good gear on a budget as it is fairly easy to tell whether used PA gear is OK or not. All my personal PA speakers have been bought used together with most of the mixing desks that I've owned. My first mixing desk still gets used from time to time even though it is nearly 30 years old.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote lightman:

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And someone suggested running a di into a line input i think...where does the phantome power come from then eh (without something silly like an external supply)?

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Batteries. Or use passive boxes. You only have to do it if you run out of mic inputs, but it is useful to be able to squeeze extra channels out of a compact desk

Oh yes, I second James' suggestions for getting local help and also looking at used kit. There are quite a lot of potential pitfalls buying PA kit, and mistakes are usually costly.

Edited by LawrenceH (27/11/07 11:48 AM)

Thanks for the feedback guys. Can someone answer some other questions for me?

First off, why do we need so many mics? The stage is big enough for a 5, maybe 6 piece band. I'd love to get larger bands playing but we just don't have the space. That said, surely we'd just need 5-6 mics and a drum mic kit wouldn't we?

I know people are warning me off Behringer, but we're left with little choice. We open in just under three weeks and so we need to get stuff in now. If Behringer is all we can get, we have to go with it. Comparing them to others, just by looking at them, I can tell the Behringers are not very good, but having read up a bit about monitors in general (and still not knowing very much), they all seem to have line and mic inputs. I assume this means the bass and lead guitarists plug their guitars and mics into these and the monitors are plugged into the mixer. Is that correct? If so, can I get away with only 4 mic inputs on the mixer?

On the quote I posted, they listed Bafle 500w Subwoofers amps. Are these the big speakers that sit in the front corners of the stage? (again, forgive my ignorance, I'm trying to learn quickly but this is all completely new to me). If so, is the Box Basis Bundle OK for now? That's priced in Europe at around £700. If I can get something in the same price range, that will bring the cost down towards budget. Also, what is the difference between active and passive speakers? They also listed 8 Peavey bafle amps. I think my translation may have been off. I think these are also speakers, but smaller ones for other areas of the bar. Can we get away with standard home speakers for now? I don't think we need 8, as the other areas of the bar are more lounge that venue. I think we can get away with 3-4 small speakers.

The CD player in the posted quote we can do without. My Harman Kardom CD player at home didn't cost what they're quoting so as it's only a back up device, I can buy a CD player for a fraction of the price they're quoting.

Does the same apply to the equalisers? I thought equalisers were bad. I understood that the mixer did that stuff. Isn't that the point?

I think we're going to have to buy what we can now and replace it with better equipment as time allows. Once we're open lead time for equipment becomes less important. If we need to order stuff from Europe it's not a big deal if it takes 4 weeks to get here and another 2 for customs to get their fingers out of their arses!!

Bottom line, can somebody give me a yes or no on the following?

If I buy 2 big front speakers, 2 monitors (with mic inputs), a drum kit, a mixer with inputs for 4 additional mics, 4 vocal mics and drum mic kit (plus all the relevant cables and connectors), is this enough for a basic setup? Again, I know it won't be great, and I accept that you guys are experts and want to work with quality equipment, but I have to realistic about budget and time constraints. As somebody said earlier, most of the bands that will be playing are just going to be happy that somebody is willing to come and listen to them. We're not looking at getting Shakira just yet. All our bands will be unsigned. Obviously, some will be better that others and will expect more, but the majority will be small local bands. Once again, please forgive me if my ignorance offends anyone's technical expertise, but I need to get something up and running in a very short time. If it has to be replaced later, sobeit.

Thanks for the advice, James. We're looking to recruit an engineer now. Trouble is, I need to get the equipment sooner rather than later. I can't wait to find, interview and recruit somebody before I get the gear.

If you know anyone that's going to be in Cancun in teh next few days and fancies helping me out, I'd be happy to pay the cost of the bus trip between Cancun and Merida. I woudl drive up and pick them up, but I'm snowed under with getting things ready for the opening at the moment.

Just out of interest, what is your budget?

Also, behringer mixers, compressers and EQ's do the job Their amps and speakers aren't bad either, just make sure
you fill in the warranty things and send them away! By the way they have never let me down, they make millions of these things so obviously, some will go wrong, just run what you get hard for 5-10 mins and if it can't handle it get it replaced.

If you are doing a band with a drumkit with aims of covering more than 30 people, you NEED subs.

An audiotechnica kick drum mic is a good bet at about £50.

Get a few SM57's, failing that the behringer 3 pack of dynamic mics come close at £30 for 3 mics.

You won't need condensers for overheads, cymbals carry for ever up to a room the size of a basketball court.

Sm58 for vocals mabye 3

3 DI's, again Behringer

Don't skimp on leads, unfortunatly they are the most expensive thing if you buy poor quality. Buy a few 100m rolls of balanced cable and connectors and make your own, its dead easy.

With monitors, They are the wedge shaped speakers in front of the musicians, not to be confused with studio monitors which are fancy hifi speakers. 2 speakers and a behringer EP1500 will do. Everything is mic'd up through the desk and aux sends are used to send various levels of each instrument to the monitor amp so the musicians hear what they want to hear.

You probably dont need compression, but you do need graphic EQ.

But you're still looking at £3000-5000.

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Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.

Quote TimFoster:

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Thanks for the advice, James. We're looking to recruit an engineer now. Trouble is, I need to get the equipment sooner rather than later. I can't wait to find, interview and recruit somebody before I get the gear.

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I don't want to be rude Tim, but judging from your current questions, you can't afford NOT to find someone to help you. You will not be able to find a usable PA on your budget without the help of someone who knows the local market and the local suppliers.

You may also want to consider leasing the gear rather than outright purchase - this may allow you to install better gear without a high upfront cost and, if it doesn't work, you have someone to go to in order to get it fixed.

You may have more success finding a local engineer who can help if you look at some of the US based forums like the ones here.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote stevie j:

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Just out of interest, what is your budget?

But you're still looking at £3000-5000.

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Hi Stevie, Thanks for the help. My budget is as little as I can get away with, but I realise I have to pay around £3000 minimum. I'm expecting to pay around £4000 max if I have to. The quote I posted here was from a local supplier and came in at $127,000 MXN (approx £7000). I want to pay half that. If I can buy cheaper stuff now to get me through a few gigs I'll be happy to pay twice by buying better later.

Quote James Perrett:

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I don't want to be rude Tim, but judging from your current questions, you can't afford NOT to find someone to help you. You will not be able to find a usable PA on your budget without the help of someone who knows the local market and the local suppliers.

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Hi James. Thanks for that, rub salt in the wounds why don't you?? I know I'm a real noob, but I really have no choice at this stage. We're so close to the opening that I have to do it yesterday. If that means blundering about in the dark, I really don't have a choice. I know it's going to cost me more in the long run, but we're committed to this now. I have an agreement with the local radio station here (audience of approx 750,000) for them to play the CD's of the bands we're booking. They're egoing to interview the bands and maybe broadcast gigs live, so I have no choice but to get this going asap. I'm sure that in a year or so I'll be looking back at this thinking what an idiot I was for doing it this way, but if it's not hard work there's no challenge, right? (remind me of that in when I'm crying into my beer later!!!!)

Hmmm....

OK - basics.
1 - FOH stacks. Look for 3k of power, at least one sub per side, power handling 1k, and a 500 watt top (if Billy Behringer it has to be). You can do that in two power amps and four boxes.

2 - Desk end of things. 16 mic channels, built-in effects, and two outboard dual channel graphic eqs. One graphic across the main outputs, the other for two monitor sends.

3 - Monitors - cheap 250 watt a side amp, and a couple of 12" and horn wedges - for if the budget will stretch.

4 Mics - Four good quality vocal mics - think SM58, or maybe Sennheiser E840 (currently cheap as chips in the UK). Drum kit mic set - low cast JTS, maybe? Two SM57s for miking backline, four DI boxes. That should see to just about any four or five piece band.

5 - Cabling - you need a snake with 16 up and four back - bog standard, nothing flash. You need enough XLR cables to handle each mic in your inventory and half a dozen spares. You need four boom mic stands (vox) a couple or three low booms (instruments) and use clips for the drum mics (snare included).

If you're getting local radio support, why not get them down to help you source this lot at better prices? And if they're going to be driving punters your way, I'd strongly suggest that you ditch the cheapie kit sharpish and invest in some quality gear - a crowd of 300 shandied and tequila'ed up punters can get ugly fast if the rig decides to have a kip or die half way through a band's set.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

£7K for that pile of dingos kidneys?? You have to be kidding me.

Ok, using stuff I can get in the UK (but similar will be available over there) lets see if I can do this...

I don't have the dimensions of the space, so lets go for something fairly generic.

1 Pair Mackie SRM1530Z (Not wonderful but they will do the job and are self powered, so no need for an amp), run them full range for now, you can add subs later. Say £450 each (Always spend the money at either end of the chain, that is where the improvements are).

At the 3 - 4K mark just put two self powered monitor mixes in using cheap and nasty self powered wedges, thomann do some for a few hundred quid each.

Mics, loose the Sure PG series of crap, we can do better for the same money, Sennheiser Evolution 815 for example, will not win any prizes as a great mic, but it will get the job done. Should be able to get these for about £30 each. Get half a dozen (£180), also get half a dozen or so of whatever the local cheap Chinese pencil condenser is (Over here it would be something like the TBone EM700 (£35 per pair, and about what you would expect for that money). This way replacing them with something less crap is a bit less painful later.

Stands, get a dozen to start with, you can buy more, say £25 each (Buying crap here is something you will really regret).

Cable, you can make your own, but it is barely a saving...
30 * 5M XLR, should be about £5 each = £150.
Multicore, here we are really going to have to cheap out, you will want a 24 send with at least 4 returns, say £200 from Thomann, but it is fairly nasty.

Now, we need a desk and outboard.. The nice thing about these parts is you can upgrade piecemeal, but lets get something halfway sane, say a Yamaha MG24 (gives you 16 mic inputs) for ~£600ish and includes a built in effects unit.

Now we just need some cheap ass graphics to control feedback, say a pair of the Beringer units FBQ3102 for <£100 each, they are not exactly good, but would do given the rest of the rig.

Which comes in just shy of £3,000, and a few hundred for misc cables (power, some signal) and a case to protect the desk and eqs (and to store the mics) and we are up to say £3,250, add a cheap drum kit, gets us to £3,600, add 4 Par56 cans a side on T bars driven from a switch pack that can chase.... Job done, right around the £4K mark.

Now, there is a fair bit of handwaving going on here, and there are plenty of other ways to get there, but as a ten minute sketch, that is how I would skin this one.

HTH.

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

Dan's list is sensible (obviously given that he is pretty much always spot on).
But buy at least one decent-ish mic too (Shure SM58 or equiv) for lead vocals

Yea Dmills is spot on.

good luck, let us know how it goes

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Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.

a Void pa (arch), a yamaha digital mixer (Ls9). Audix microphones. Some showtec ligths. And wham bam thank u mam..
Only one thing: Drop the backline, usually small venues dont have backline and touring bands bring their own. And in my expiriance the drumsets usually are expensive to keep in stock. Always parts missing!

whilst i remember, u need a pile of xlr, dmx, power cords. U really want to have a big enough snake for all ur jobs. (snakes are expensive, so u dont wanna buy them twice :P) 24/8. In my expiriance after been of hundreds of clubs is that saving money on these things often make u feel like leaving the place in stead of enjoing the sound.

I would advice u to have one technical guy there on every gig, a person that knows the system and can make suggestions on how to evolve and repair if somthings broke.

Cannot get the LS9 within the budget, it is a ~3K board on its own. A pity because it is awesome bang for the buck.

At 7K, I would be seriously tempted (but would probably go for something a little cheaper in the interests of better mics and speakers), but not at 4k.

Actually, looking at that list I put together, add 3 cheap DI boxes (Don't need to be the radians, they are somewhat better then this warrants). Might add a hundred quid but will be worth it, and replace two of the vocal mics with one better one (E835 or SM58 to taste).

BTW: What power do you have available? Lighting, once you get past the small stuff is a total current hog (more so at 120V then 240V).

Regards, Dan.

This actually would make a **MUCH** better homework question then the 1/2 million pound studio that some muppet keeps setting as a design project.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

Quote dmills:

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This actually would make a **MUCH** better homework question then the 1/2 million pound studio that some muppet keeps setting as a design project.

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(I confess the cynic in me did wonder...)

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TAKEN.BALL.GONE.HOME

Thanks Dan, your spec is exacty what I was looking for. I'm going back to the people that have quoted us (3 companies so far) with your spec to see where they come.

The original quotes were $127k, $88k and $33k. I was really pleased with the last one, until the guy explained he was quoting in USD bizzarely!!!! That made it $330 MXN. Not much difference then!!!!!!!!!

I'll update you all with what I get back from the companies.

Thanks again for all your help with this. If any of you are out in Mexico, get in touch (tim.foster@@thegreenroommerida.com) and you'll be VIP'd

Also, if anyone can persuade their project setters that they can do this for the projects you mention, I'd be happy to co-operate. I've already been roped in to give talks at the local college, so why not

Quote soundshaper.no:

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whilst i remember, u need a pile of xlr, dmx, power cords. U really want to have a big enough snake for all ur jobs. (snakes are expensive, so u dont wanna buy them twice :P) 24/8.

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Thanks...but can you explain that again in English for me xlr? dmx? power cords I'm ok with but the others? (sorry, I know I'm a dumb ass noob!)

Quote soundshaper.no:

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I would advice u to have one technical guy there on every gig, a person that knows the system and can make suggestions on how to evolve and repair if somthings broke.

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This is exactly what I want to have. We're looking to put on bands from the UK/US/Europe/South America at least twice a month. As you can all tell, I know bugger all about this kind of stuff. Give me something to promote and I'm your man, but installing and running this gear, it may as well be badger baiting for all I know!!! I want to have somebody doing all this stuff, but Merida doesn't have any students studying this stuff. I'm going to have to blag one from another venue if I can.

XLR cables = mic cables with XLR connectors at both ends.

DMX cables = cables made up specifically for carry the DMX control signal for lighting equipment.

Snake = a great big length of cable that carries multiple signals from the stage to the mixing desk.

e.g. http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_sk415-30_multicore.htm

The stagebox sits on the stage somewhere. All the mics, etc connect to it. The snake then runs around the room to the mixing desk. Basically it is a convenient way of combining lots of mic cables into one big cable so that it can run a long distance. Much tidier than running seperate cables.

What has been said above is that you need to make sure that you get the right size.

Snakes usually have two numbers listed. e.g. 24/8
These numbers refer to the number of input and output signals carried. A 24/8 snake will have 24 mic inputs on the stagebox, going to 24 outputs at the other end so that you can plug them into the appropriate channels on the mixer.
The /8 refers to returns. These are signals sent from the mixer back to the stage.
Your main PA amps should be on or near the stage, so this allows you to send the left and right outputs from the mixer to them. That's two of the 8. The remaining 6 will usually be used for monitor sends from the desk.
If your desk has four monitor sends, it will use up another four of the eight available lines leaving two spare.

It is important to get the right configuration.

If you get a 24/4 snake, but have 4 monitor sends on your desk, you will be short. Don't forget that two of the sends are already spoken for with the main L=R outs to the main amps and speakers.

HTH.

Stu.

Quote mpostor:

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Snake = a great big length of cable that carries multiple signals from the stage to the mixing desk.

e.g. http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_sk415-30_multicore.htm

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This reminds me - the one good thing about being on your side of the Atlantic is that you can buy Horizon cables. Their multicores are a big step up from the cheap Thomann/CPC multicores for not much more money. They may not be right in the top league but all the Horizon cables that I've used have offerd very good value for money.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Yeah, the link was mainly for the picture...

The level of knowledge the OP admitted to having warranted at least one pic to assist with the desciption.

Stu.

Quote mpostor:

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XLR cables = mic cables with XLR connectors at both ends.

DMX cables = cables made up specifically for carry the DMX control signal for lighting equipment.

Snake = a great big length of cable that carries multiple signals from the stage to the mixing desk.

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Thanks for clearing that up for me Stu. The picture was a big help. I guess a 24/8 snake is what I need then (see I'm talking technical jargon now ) as I'm having two monitors.

I've got 30 5m XLR cables on my list, so I'm ok with that.

The DMX cables are only for lighting, yes? Does this connect into the system as well then or is it a seperate control system?

I'm going to talk to the people quoting today and specify that I'd prefer an Horizon 24/8 snake. I'll almost sound like I know what I'm talking about!!!