Main Forums >> Live Sound & Performance
        Print Thread

Pages: 1 | 2 | (show all)
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
How to get the funding to expand a start-up?
      #961770 - 04/01/12 11:41 AM
Hi all,

I'm currently working on developing a small live sound business that does some dry-hire, but generally hires out both the rig as well as my engineering services, as well as a crew member. At the moment we've got a Soundcraft LX7ii 24 desk, a bit of outboard processing, the usual mix of Shure wired and 1 Sennheiser wireless mics, all going into one DB Technologies SW18 sub, and 2 Mackie C300z FOH speakers. Monitors are Active DB Technologies M10-2 Plus. FOH is driven by one Yamaha P7000S, with one channel going to the sub and one running the Mackies in Mono. Inbuilt filters in the amp act as a crude form of crossover.

Our problems at the moment is that we're struggling to both sort out logistical issues (lots of money needed, explanation coming!) and expand the rig to the point where we are more credible (again, money!)

At the moment the rig is stored in a friends bedroom smaller than most cupbards (no, seriously!) so we have no more space to expand. Also, the only car I can drive is my Honda Jazz which means transporting the rig takes 2 runs, limiting how far we can go and annoying some of our clients. I ideally need to fund a van as well as storage but a van is £7k per year fr insurance as I'm a 17 year old, an am therefore instantly a recipe for disaster!I also need to fund a unit of some sort.

At the same time, I'm trying to work out how I can grow the rig. At the moment the music scene in my area is very "on-the-edge" with promoters with limited budgets coming and going all the time. Therefore at the moment I can't really charge more than £150 per night, which is very low I think but I can't go any higher. I'd like to break out of Yeovil (pretty small town) to other areas, but this involves having a more serious rig (particularly in terms of FOH speakers) as well as storage and transport.

As I only have a Saturday job paying £4.50 an hour, and my friend who runs this with me was recently made redundant, money is very tight. And with the difficulties of getting our name out there without the equipment, and lack of certainty about market trends, I'm struggling to see how as a 17 year old I could get a business start up loan.

Therefore, I just wanted to throw out the question of how people secure funding to get all the equipment they need to get off the ground. Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Edited by Joel Nichols (04/01/12 11:48 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
The Korff
Loose Cannon (Reviews Editor)


Joined: 20/10/06
Posts: 2203
Loc: The Wrong Precinct
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961772 - 04/01/12 11:49 AM
Have you thought about running nights yourself, and taking the money from the door? I presume you know some bands already, and if you can find a reasonable size venue (who may pay you for the extra money they'll take at the bar), you'll have everything you need. Then it's a case of figuring out how much you can charge for entry, how much to pay the bands, getting posters and tickets sorted, promoting online, etc... It'll be a lot of extra work, but if you're sensible you may find the money you take home makes it worth the effort.

Cheers!

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: The Korff]
      #961773 - 04/01/12 11:52 AM
Have thought about it a couple of times. We're lucky in Yeovil to have a hall that could probably hold about 200, has a stage and some lights, for just £80 a night. It's just that I've watched promoters fail to get more than 25 people to shows despite advertising.

I may well try it this year, particularly when my last year of college is out the way. Unfortunately it's things like a van that I need quickly, because my car's suspension is creaking in pain a worrying amount!

Edited by Joel Nichols (04/01/12 11:55 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Bossman
active member


Joined: 30/09/02
Posts: 1614
Loc: UK
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961775 - 04/01/12 12:01 PM
Quote Joel Nichols:

Unfortunately it's things like a van that I need quickly...




hire a van?

--------------------
www.Lozjackson.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Bossman]
      #961779 - 04/01/12 12:10 PM
Also looked into it, but with the variable music scene around Yeovil, it didn't cover costs. Would you say my rig it's big enough to market elsewhere, and how much do you think I should charge? The full spec is on www.facebook.com/revolutionaudio.

Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
The Korff
Loose Cannon (Reviews Editor)


Joined: 20/10/06
Posts: 2203
Loc: The Wrong Precinct
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961780 - 04/01/12 12:11 PM
How about pub/venues? Some of them (round my way at least) will actually pay you to put on a night, if you can fill the place up to a decent extent so they get plenty of people at the bar. Have a wander round some local places that have an ents licence and ask around!

Cheers,

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: The Korff]
      #961781 - 04/01/12 12:17 PM
Thanks Chris, I'll try that over the next few weeks! There is also a business start up grant here in Somerset for young people with ideas but not solid enough business models for conventional loans. It's up to £4k, thinking about giving it a go.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 2845
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961783 - 04/01/12 12:34 PM
How's about a second-hand horsebox trailer? Cheaper to buy than a van, and won't hit you on insurance either. Sure you can't get as much in there, but if you're still going in 5 years time and have been successful enough that you can buy enough gear to outgrow the horsebox, then you'll probably be looking at getting a Luton van anyway.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: grab]
      #961791 - 04/01/12 01:11 PM
Good idea! I'm also thinking of developing my garage for storage, but obviously it needs to be dry, warm and secure. Anyone got any tips for this? The only issue I can see is the thorny matter of how much it will add to my parents house insurance!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Dave Rowles



Joined: 28/02/08
Posts: 1410
Loc: Isle of Man
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961802 - 04/01/12 02:03 PM
Don't worry about house insurance covering the gear...because it doesn't.

If the gear you have is used for business purposes then it won't be covered by household insurance. This goes for any musical instrument you gig with too. You get away with a laptop that you use for work, but that's the only cross over I know of.

However, upgrading the garage, making dry and warm, can only add value to the house, so I can't see them being too upset about it...provided it doesn't cost them to get it done...

--------------------
www.manninmusic.com
Sound Engineer, Music Teacher, Isle of Man


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
christianmurphy



Joined: 25/01/08
Posts: 311
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961820 - 04/01/12 03:28 PM
It might not be what you wanna hear, but you seem to be looking for a get rich quick kinda scheme, which very likely won't happen. Keep at it, put in as many hours at work as you can (maybe a different job if the pays not enough?), start saving until you have the gear/travel options you need to push out. It's not easy but generally dedication and hard work are the two most important factors.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961828 - 04/01/12 03:50 PM
I think it may just be me being a little too overenthusiastic about expanding, getting new gear and all that! I'm not desiring to get rich from it, I just want to get it to the stage where it can be my main source of income, as it's something I really love doing. Thanks for the guidance on insurance, saved me a lot of bother!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5354
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961846 - 04/01/12 05:04 PM
Quote Joel Nichols:

Therefore, I just wanted to throw out the question of how people secure funding to get all the equipment they need to get off the ground. Any advice is greatly appreciated!




Here's my advice. Don't do it! "Funding" is only another word for "debt". Just sell your skills, using whatever equipment you own or can buy for cash. When you make some money, if there's anything left after buying food and shelter, consider investing in more equipment.

Otherwise you'll just be struggling to service a debt. And, 99% likely, you WILL go under.

Sorry.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 2845
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961849 - 04/01/12 05:08 PM
Oh BTW, if you want to make more money then maybe get into DJing. As you say, you can't get paid much to provide sound for a band if the band themselves aren't getting paid much - and of course whatever they're paid has to be divided however many ways. But if you're DJing, it's at least £300 (which seems to be the lowest going rate) straight to you and your mate, and there's likely to be more opportunities for DJing than live sound too.

Of course it takes a bit of practise to DJ well, and you need a stack of tracks too. But that does seem to be the best return for a smallish PA system.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10443
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: grab]
      #961855 - 04/01/12 05:30 PM
Quote grab:

How's about a second-hand horsebox trailer?




There are much better alternatives to a horse box!

When I was doing PA and DJ'ing I replaced my old Transit with a Lynton Load Lugger trailer

http://www.lyntonshowpoint.com/Trailersloadlugger.html

and found that it was one of the best investments I ever made. Fortunately I had somewhere fairly secure to park it so the gear could stay in the trailer all the time which meant there were no storage problems. The one I had (not the biggest by any means) could hold more gear than a standard Transit and could be towed by anything from a Vauxhall Astra upwards (so the Civic would be fine).

Later I noticed that quite a few DJ's were starting to use similar trailers.

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Edited by James Perrett (04/01/12 05:31 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: James Perrett]
      #961856 - 04/01/12 05:33 PM
Thanks for the extra advice guys! I'm thinking now that a trailer probably is the way to go. I wish it was a Civic, but unfortunately it's a Jazz so is a little down on power!

That said, it's still at the menders because somebody decided to drive into me!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
OneWorld



Joined: 07/04/09
Posts: 1801
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: James Perrett]
      #961857 - 04/01/12 05:53 PM
Quote James Perrett:

Quote grab:

How's about a second-hand horsebox trailer?




There are much better alternatives to a horse box!

When I was doing PA and DJ'ing I replaced my old Transit with a Lynton Load Lugger trailer

http://www.lyntonshowpoint.com/Trailersloadlugger.html

and found that it was one of the best investments I ever made. Fortunately I had somewhere fairly secure to park it so the gear could stay in the trailer all the time which meant there were no storage problems. The one I had (not the biggest by any means) could hold more gear than a standard Transit and could be towed by anything from a Vauxhall Astra upwards (so the Civic would be fine).

Later I noticed that quite a few DJ's were starting to use similar trailers.

James.




When we used to gig and outgrew the transit, a trailer became the answer, smaller gigs we could fit the equipment in the transit and follow by car, larger gigs, put seats in the tranny and PA/Cabs in the trailer. And on occasion used the sax player's estate car to pull it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Scramble
active member


Joined: 11/09/02
Posts: 2091
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: OneWorld]
      #961884 - 04/01/12 09:23 PM
Don't mean to be negative but running your own PA company is hard work for not much money. You need to love it. As Wombat says don't spend too much money you don't have.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961891 - 04/01/12 09:56 PM
Hi guys,

Sorry if the way I wrote it made it come around as me wanting a get-rich scheme! I do genuinely do it because I love the excitement and sheer variety of the job, rather than the financial reward. I was just trying to work out how to develop.

Thankyou guys so much for all your wisdom that's really taught be to just be patient! As well as all the extra tips for getting known more through other event types. All your advice, and any more that is to come, is massively appreciated!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 2845
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: James Perrett]
      #961925 - 05/01/12 01:05 AM
Yeah, should have said horsebox "or similar". Probably easier to find a second-hand horsebox though. I've just about outgrown the carrying capacity of our Berlingo myself (full gear involves a couple of boxes on the passenger seat as well as a full-to-the-rafters back), so considering this myself.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
christianmurphy



Joined: 25/01/08
Posts: 311
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: grab]
      #961931 - 05/01/12 02:38 AM
Quote James Perrett:


When I was doing PA and DJ'ing I replaced my old Transit with a Lynton Load Lugger trailer

http://www.lyntonshowpoint.com/Trailersloadlugger.html





Very cool piece of kit. I'd be interested to see how much you could get in the even smaller one (especially for a grand+vat). Seems like it could pay itself off pretty quick.

Quote grab:

Yeah, should have said horsebox "or similar". Probably easier to find a second-hand horsebox though. I've just about outgrown the carrying capacity of our Berlingo myself (full gear involves a couple of boxes on the passenger seat as well as a full-to-the-rafters back), so considering this myself.




THIS I can relate to. I think I have a picture somewhere of my berlingo filled to the top, have to dig it out .

Quote Joel Nichols:


Sorry if the way I wrote it made it come around as me wanting a get-rich scheme! I do genuinely do it because I love the excitement and sheer variety of the job, rather than the financial reward. I was just trying to work out how to develop.





I might have come across wrong with my wording when I said that. I just used it as an expression for getting the money to spend on the gear together quickly (which usually ends up leaving you in a less than favourable position), rather than actually making it, apologies.

I don't think I'd ever accuse someone of getting into this business for MAKING money


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
turbodave



Joined: 25/04/08
Posts: 2318
Loc: derbyshire uk
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961944 - 05/01/12 08:35 AM
I have the Lynton loadtrekker which I have used for about 4 years. It has been used for PA, for runs to the tip and as gear storage for our holidays. With a little TLC it has come through still intact. I (with some maths) have put a 6k rig in it. Dave

--------------------
My head hurts!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
TheChorltonWheelie



Joined: 22/09/09
Posts: 971
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #961955 - 05/01/12 09:42 AM
Quote Joel Nichols:

Hi all,

I'm currently working on developing a small live sound business that does some dry-hire, but generally hires out both the rig as well as my engineering services, as well as a crew member. At the moment we've got a Soundcraft LX7ii 24 desk, a bit of outboard processing, the usual mix of Shure wired and 1 Sennheiser wireless mics, all going into one DB Technologies SW18 sub, and 2 Mackie C300z FOH speakers. Monitors are Active DB Technologies M10-2 Plus. FOH is driven by one Yamaha P7000S, with one channel going to the sub and one running the Mackies in Mono. Inbuilt filters in the amp act as a crude form of crossover.




+1 to Wombat, "funding" is just another word for debt. There are so many people that do this kind of hire, I can't think of anything that are doing well either, they're all just about surviving.

For 99% of businesses it's about having a unique selling point, something the separates you from your competitors, but in this business it's purely about the price: in the Midlands you can hire an active PA (decent make, nice desk, mics/leads etc) at about £100 per 1kw, and over 2kw you'll get an engineer too. Now, I have my own PA for my bands purely because I prefer to be fully-enclosed, but there are plenty of gigs where we'll just hire it in to save on the hassle.

If you're going to do this, you're going to have to separate yourself from the competition, and one such action could be your willingness to travel, only the large firms are prepared to do that.

As for transport, you're never going to be the old tranny (that's the Ford variety, not a lady with appendage), and if you're shrewd you'd go for the petrol 2.0 and have the LPG conversion (the same as I have). It's cheaper to buy in the first place, you'll get an adjusted 50-60mpg, and you can drive it as an every day vehicle too. Get one that's ply-boarded, spend £100 on carpet tiles and rubber matting, then do the floor out in rubber and the sides in carpet: the carpet protects the kits when it slides about, the rubber matting prevents the kit from sliding about.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5354
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: TheChorltonWheelie]
      #962028 - 05/01/12 01:33 PM
Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

As for transport, you're never going to be the old tranny (that's the Ford variety, not a lady with appendage), and if you're shrewd you'd go for the petrol 2.0 and have the LPG conversion (the same as I have). It's cheaper to buy in the first place, you'll get an adjusted 50-60mpg, and you can drive it as an every day vehicle too. Get one that's ply-boarded, spend £100 on carpet tiles and rubber matting, then do the floor out in rubber and the sides in carpet: the carpet protects the kits when it slides about, the rubber matting prevents the kit from sliding about.




He's too young to get affordable insurance. And when he tells his insurers that his present vehicle is going to be used for business, and what that business is, prepare for a nasty shock.

Don't kid yourself that next time the police take an interest in the vehicle for any reason (even if someone else runs into him) they'll glance at the load and write down "business use" without even asking. When that hits the system, there'll be some explaining to do.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Daniel Davis



Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 858
Loc: Edinburgh
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #962037 - 05/01/12 01:51 PM
If your numbers don't add up the last thing you would want to do would be to be given the funding - that way you'd loose more. If you numbers do add up you won't find much trouble finding the money. You can't force a business proposition to work.

In my town the cost per sqft of business property in rent and rates is more than I could charge my clients - so I still work from an extension on my home. I actually do know how to borrow the money to set up in town, but if I did so I would loose money. If it doesn't make money it isn't a business. Period. Sorry life sometimes sucks. But you're only 17 - it'll probably take a few knocks for you to learn that one.

Edited by Daniel Davis (05/01/12 01:52 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Daniel Davis]
      #962049 - 05/01/12 02:34 PM
On the insurance front, what's the deal with insuring a trailer to run behind my car? Obviously it doesn't go everywhere with the car, and the car itself is not carrying any business stuff.

Back on funding, I think you're all right! What I had been thinking is if I had been able to sort the logistical problems out as well as get a more credible rig, I could charge more and therefore help balance it all out in the long term. But I'm much happier knowing it'll be a long slog of saving rather than getting myself into lots of bother with debt!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Scramble
active member


Joined: 11/09/02
Posts: 2091
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Daniel Davis]
      #962052 - 05/01/12 02:44 PM
Quote Daniel Davis:

if I did so I would loose money.




Loose money sounds good. Any of it floating loose around my way?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10443
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #962086 - 05/01/12 04:49 PM
As far as insurance is concerned you have to tell your insurer that you are using your car for your own business. In my case, it doesn't seem to add much to the insurance premium but it may be different for a 17 year old. Towing a trailer is usually included but you would need to check your exact policy wording.

I was 22 when I first bought a van and found that different insurers had very different attitudes to the music business - some wouldn't touch it at all while others had no problem so it pays to shop around. If you are insuring a van the insurers tend to automatically give you business insurance but always check.

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5354
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #962090 - 05/01/12 05:17 PM
Quote Joel Nichols:

On the insurance front, what's the deal with insuring a trailer to run behind my car? Obviously it doesn't go everywhere with the car, and the car itself is not carrying any business stuff.




Nice try, but I don't think you'll wriggle out of it that way! :-)

The basis of any insurance contract is full disclosure of the risk.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 2845
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #962125 - 05/01/12 09:04 PM
Just check your current insurance details first. Many companies would like you to use your own car for occasional commutes for work (it saves them needing a load of company cars), so an awful lot of insurance companies throw in "business use" at no extra cost. But you *do* need to check.

Note that this doesn't insure anything inside the car (or trailer)...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5354
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: grab]
      #962136 - 05/01/12 10:06 PM
Quote grab:

Just check your current insurance details first. Many companies would like you to use your own car for occasional commutes for work (it saves them needing a load of company cars), so an awful lot of insurance companies throw in "business use" at no extra cost.




You'll find "business use" is quite seperate to "driving to your regular place of work".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 2845
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #962176 - 06/01/12 09:37 AM
Sorry, I wasn't quite clear there. If you occasionally have to travel to a customer's site (not your usual place of work), most companies would like you to use your own car and pay you mileage. The days of fleets of company pool cars are long over for most companies! But this is using your car for business travel, and unless your insurance specifically says that you're covered for business use then you're not insured.

Like I said though, many insurance companies are aware that this is commonplace now, so a lot of them give you this cover as standard. And business use is business use - they don't (AFAIK) limit how often you can use the car for business - so you'd be fine with using it for gigging.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #962334 - 06/01/12 11:55 PM
Looks like I have a lot of phone calls to look forward to! After my last experience with them I concluded they are probably the second least helpful industry there is, second only to BT!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #963592 - 12/01/12 02:25 PM
Alright guys, just a quick update to say once again thankyou so much for the advice! I'm going to move the rig to my garage (and save up for insurance, it just isn't viable now!) and get a trailer, hoping the wright of it and the rig will come to less than a metric tonne (the max towing weight of my car). Also planning to tart small and maybe put on a few of my own acoustic shows sometime to earn a bit of cash. If anyone sees any issues in this, feel free to raise it so I don't fall into a trap!

Thankyou so much for all he help guys, now I've got a clear picture of where I'm going!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 2845
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #963611 - 12/01/12 03:16 PM
Nothing wrong with a small tart. Strawberry for me, thanks.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: grab]
      #963632 - 12/01/12 04:00 PM
I was going to edit it, but the filter at college seems to not like SOS too much!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ian_gibbs



Joined: 21/11/08
Posts: 95
Loc: Edinburgh
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #963676 - 12/01/12 06:09 PM
To go against everything that has been said here, don't go anywhere near the trailer root. you're opening a whole can of worms.

The maximum towing MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) of your Jazz (depending on model) is 1000kg braked or 450kg un-braked. 450kg isn't very much by the time you've subtracted the self weight of the trailer which means that realistically you're looking at a braked trailer, that's just added massively to the cost of the trailer.

Then there's the legal aspect, as you're 17 you can only tow a maximum of 750kg on your standard car licence (cat B), to tow any more you will need cat B+E (car unto 3500kg + trailer up to 3500kg)on you're licence, when I did mine more than 3 years ago it cost me about £400 by the time I'd done the training and sat the test. It's the same as an arctic truck test, but in a different vehicle so is much harder than your car test to pass.

You say that the suspension of your car isn't really happy with the current weight of your kit, a trailer of the size you're talking about isn't massively going to help that as it'll probably be single axle and so you'll still have a relatively high rear axle load on your car.

Now you've not only got to insure your car for business but also the trailer, and it's contents. And try and get a trailer down the back of some venues, bet that's not going to be easy.

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works but to stay legal it's gonna get really expensive.

Ian


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
tacitus



Joined: 04/02/08
Posts: 896
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #963729 - 12/01/12 11:00 PM
You need a mate who's older and can hire a van - maybe your grandad. I'm over 50 and seldom pay much more than £50 for van hire. Trailers have all the problems listed above and buying a van is a total waste of money unless you KNOW you'll be using it all the time. And definitely don't get into debt to fund yourself. If you get bigger gigs you can hire in to make up.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: ian_gibbs]
      #963844 - 13/01/12 01:12 PM
Thanks for the heads up on that one! I've been looking around for a solution that involved other drivers.

If I still had a grandad I'd do that, but I don't! My parents also aren't particularly keen on 1am finishes at venues! I did have a lot of friends who also enjoyed and understood sou,d but all but one of them moved to London last year, and the other one moved to Colchester!.

So I'm thinking at the moment I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and get a trailer, definitely a braked one. Thanks for pointing out the issues though. I'm hoping to replace the car in a year or two anyway (with something rather more manly!) and I don't see myself having much more gear beforehand.

On the cost front, I'm deferring getting any new gear for a while. Normally if I can prove it'll be good in the ling-run my parents let me use some of my inheritance for stuff like this, so I'm hoping they will this time. Not gonna be easy, but I'll just have to slog it out and get through it I suppose. Still love the job though!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ian_gibbs



Joined: 21/11/08
Posts: 95
Loc: Edinburgh
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #963852 - 13/01/12 01:30 PM
Quote Joel Nichols:

So I'm thinking at the moment I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and get a trailer, definitely a braked one. Thanks for pointing out the issues though. I'm hoping to replace the car in a year or two anyway (with something rather more manly!) and I don't see myself having much more gear beforehand.




OK, this really doesn't sound like the most cost effective solution now. You're talking about a braked trailer, that's going to be the wrong side of £1000 for anything decent (secure, roadworthy, easy to tow etc). Then you've got your new licence to get, another £500 or so ( assuming you pass first time).

Then it gets really complicated. You can't tow a trailer with a permissible gross weight over 1000kg with your current car, what the trailer actually weighs doesn't matter, it's what it's possible to weigh that matters when it comes to the legality of these things. You say that you're looking at upgrading your car soon, doing so means that you've then got a trailer thats below, presumably, the maximum towing weight of your new car. Then if you get a car which, with the trailer is capable of having a gross weight of over 3500kg (as a combination) you'll then need a tachograph and to comply with drivers hours regulations, not easy in the event environment.

Does the trailer still sound like a good idea?

I think you're better off bringing forward the purchase of your new car.

And just to make my point again

STEP AWAY FROM THE TRAILER.

Ian


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Scramble
active member


Joined: 11/09/02
Posts: 2091
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #963858 - 13/01/12 01:38 PM
One of the many problems with trailers -- in addition to the licensing and insurance problems for young people -- is that they don't function very well in the inner city. They're fine if the venue is a big country house hotel with lots of parking space. But trying to park a trailer near an inner city pub that has none of its own parking spaces is a nightmare (not that a big van is that easy either). And reversing with a trailer is difficult, especially if you're stuck down an narrow back lane. (Although you can always just unhook a trailer and push it -- I was always surprised at how easy it was for me to push and manoeuvre my large box trailer even when loaded up with tons of heavy gear).


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: . ...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #963861 - 13/01/12 01:46 PM
I have been watching this thread with growing irritation, not because you are doing anything wrong, but because you are 17.

At 17, you are far too young to be trying to start a business. I too tried to start a business at about that age and fortunately, it failed completely. That left me free to get a life!

At 17, one has this overwhelming feeling that one has to somehow be an adult, take responsibility, start a life and build a career. People far older than you will tell you that you are doing all the right things and making all the right moves. They even give you a head start by opening doors for you. Balls!

I am now in my 60s and a multiple grandfather - I have a nice house and I run a business that includes a fairly reasonable recording studio. In the past, I have run a PA and lighting company with several trucks, which I then sold, I have had a news agency which I was also able to sell and I am doing all right, to the extent that I can go for a half-hour walk without leaving my property.

But one thing I do not have is, I have absolutely no idea what I am going to do when I grow up!

So, bearing that in mind, here are two pieces of advice that were given to me. The first came from a successful retailer called Schemiel, who ran a chain of furniture shops across the Norrth of England back in the 60s. Get on with your life! Shag! Travel! Live! Don't waste your youth on being responsible and doing what everybody tells you is the right thing to do.

You will only regret all the things you didn't do!

The second piece of advice (only to be followed, if you insist on doing the PA and lighting thing and AFTER you have done number one!!!) came from Brian Grant, MD of Britannia Row. Brit Row is the PA company and studio that was owned by Nick Mason of Pink Floyd. I asked him what the secret was to building up a really successful PA company.

"Find your Pink Floyd - now!"

In other words, the money, fun, life and career is not in the PA, but in the act that uses the PA.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
uphillbothways



Joined: 19/11/09
Posts: 190
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #963866 - 13/01/12 01:58 PM
Get in touch with the Prince's Trust and your local Chambers of Commerce. They're really useful sources of advice and support.

Your problem isn't really finding funding, it's working out a plan for how to grow your business in a profitable way. If you're not sure how you'd get enough business to cover the cost of a van, there's no way anyone is going to lend you the money. Conversely, if you've got tons of work lined up and a clear business plan, you'll find it remarkably easy to borrow money.

As you've already found out, rig hire is a tough business at the moment. I'd suggest looking at ways of diversifying, in order to get the most out of your investment in equipment and fill up your diary.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: uphillbothways]
      #963879 - 13/01/12 02:21 PM
Both places I'm looking at next week. My dad runs a business (which is not at all why I'm starting one!) so he's got a lot of wisdom I can learn from. The Somerset Youth Entrepreneur scheme also does grants which are for projects that need money to diversify but are too risky for loans. Sound seems to be one of those uncertain zones!

With the whole business thing in general, I've now done sound since I was 14 and never intended to start a business, this grew out of me teching for a band and ending up with a rig that I could start earning some more cash with. It's fair to say I know that to be any form of serious, profitable, efficient business is going to take up a lot of time and effort and is going to be really hard, but the main reason I do it is because I absolutely love it, and that's why I commit to it. Not in it for the money in the long run!

Rig hire is particularly hard down here, with promoters being pretty unreliable. The main reason to get some form of transport is to be able to to events in towns further away. As was said earlier in this thread, the main USP of a small sound company may be if we're willing to travel. I am (as it turns out, I love driving!) so that's all I was going to pull savings out for. The van definitely isn't a goer, and van hire doesn't work because of insurance. Therefore a trailer seems like the only practical option, but only really if I get a bigger car!

Edited by Joel Nichols (13/01/12 02:26 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
uphillbothways



Joined: 19/11/09
Posts: 190
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #963882 - 13/01/12 02:29 PM
Quote The Red Bladder:

Get on with your life! Shag! Travel! Live! Don't waste your youth on being responsible and doing what everybody tells you is the right thing to do.




I couldn't disagree more strongly. We live in a preposterously childish society, where "living" is defined as the most mindless and base hedonism. "Shag! Travel! Live!" *is* what everyone tells you is the right thing to do. We have this bizarre sense that the way to most fully experience your youth is to squander it with drunkenness and idleness. Running a business, even a business that is doomed from the outset, is a tremendous adventure and one of the most valuable learning experiences possible.

I've done the obligatory travel thing and in all honesty, I didn't learn that much from it. Youth hostels and student bars are much the same, wherever you go. The Sistine Chapel or Machu Piccu are just something pretty to look at if you don't have a developed cultural and aesthetic sense. What I overwhelmingly see from gap year travellers is a superficial sense of worldliness, a sense of having "done India", but no real understanding, no genuine growth. I learned more about other cultures importing circuit boards from China and having software written in India than I ever did backpacking.

Send your teenager away on a gap year and they'll come back with a tan, a minor STD and maybe a bit more common sense. Give them a couple of grand to start a business, throw them into that cauldron of having obligations to meet and bills to pay and capital to raise, that's a different story altogether. It's in the sleepless nights of trying to keep your dream alive that you work out who you are as a person.

We are a society preoccupied with consumption, that defines personal growth in terms of the places we've been, the things we've seen, the stuff we own. I think we'd be far better off if we defined ourselves in terms of *production*. Building something from scratch is hard and lonely and frightening, which is exactly why it's worth doing.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: uphillbothways]
      #963883 - 13/01/12 02:33 PM
Quote uphillbothways:

Quote The Red Bladder:

Get on with your life! Shag! Travel! Live! Don't waste your youth on being responsible and doing what everybody tells you is the right thing to do.




I couldn't disagree more strongly. We live in a preposterously childish society, where "living" is defined as the most mindless and base hedonism. "Shag! Travel! Live!" *is* what everyone tells you is the right thing to do. We have this bizarre sense that the way to most fully experience your youth is to squander it with drunkenness and idleness. Running a business, even a business that is doomed from the outset, is a tremendous adventure and one of the most valuable learning experiences possible.

I've done the obligatory travel thing and in all honesty, I didn't learn that much from it. Youth hostels and student bars are much the same, wherever you go. The Sistine Chapel or Machu Piccu are just something pretty to look at if you don't have a developed cultural and aesthetic sense. What I overwhelmingly see from gap year travellers is a superficial sense of worldliness, a sense of having "done India", but no real understanding, no genuine growth. I learned more about other cultures importing circuit boards from China and having software written in India than I ever did backpacking.

Send your teenager away on a gap year and they'll come back with a tan, a minor STD and maybe a bit more common sense. Give them a couple of grand to start a business, throw them into that cauldron of having obligations to meet and bills to pay and capital to raise, that's a different story altogether. It's in the sleepless nights of trying to keep your dream alive that you work out who you are as a person.

We are a society preoccupied with consumption, that defines personal growth in terms of the places we've been, the things we've seen, the stuff we own. I think we'd be far better off if we defined ourselves in terms of *production*. Building something from scratch is hard and lonely and frightening, which is exactly why it's worth doing.




Inspirational there uphillbothways!

Fair to say I've learnt masses about being relational, building up clients, dealing with pressures, agreements, arguments, stress, excitement and everything else since starting in June! I've still as fired up as I was! In terms of clients we've started 2012 well and it looks like we'll be motoring a long with a good few events a month. Storage I've sorted, and I have new gear that I'll save for and a timescale to do it. Transport is the last hurdle!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
tacitus



Joined: 04/02/08
Posts: 896
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #963902 - 13/01/12 03:11 PM
I started off with just my car and a tiny trailer I borrowed from my bro in law and just managed to get my live rig in it. By a year later it was tragically difficult, and by the following year I'd gone over to van hire. It's just part of the cost and now I can get most of my gear in a standard Transit or all of it in a hi-liner or LWB Transit. Fortunately I get a good whack for what I do as it's specialised; unfortunately, as it's specialised I don't get that much work. However, I do a lot of playing and conducting as well and all my gear is funded out of cash in hand so I'm not going under trying to service a huge loan. As it happens, I'm in profit over the cost of the hardware so it could be lots worse. Moreover, I only do a short season so I have a limited number of opportunities to go out and do sound. Which at 3 o'clock in the morning, after an awkward tear-down at a remote outdoor venue, I'm fairly glad about. Conducting I can do with a bag of scores and a stick ... .

My gear fits into a 6' square room but I do need to be very careful how I put it all in!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10443
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Scramble]
      #963905 - 13/01/12 03:26 PM
Quote Scramble:

One of the many problems with trailers -- in addition to the licensing and insurance problems for young people -- is that they don't function very well in the inner city. They're fine if the venue is a big country house hotel with lots of parking space. But trying to park a trailer near an inner city pub that has none of its own parking spaces is a nightmare (not that a big van is that easy either). And reversing with a trailer is difficult, especially if you're stuck down an narrow back lane. (Although you can always just unhook a trailer and push it -- I was always surprised at how easy it was for me to push and manoeuvre my large box trailer even when loaded up with tons of heavy gear).




Not many inner cities in rural Somerset although I guess Bristol isn't too far. And learning to reverse a trailer really helps your situational awareness - I never found it that difficult although, like you, I resorted to unhitching mine occasionally to fit into spaces where I could never have gone with a Transit. Any decent trailer will be braked and make sure that it has decent locking facilities - both on the doors and on the tow hitch. In Somerset I guess there are also plenty of other uses for a trailer licence

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Joel Nichols



Joined: 04/01/12
Posts: 34
Loc: Yeovil, Somerset, United Kingd...
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #964114 - 14/01/12 09:05 PM
Hi all,

In a huge stroke of luck a nationwide Christian music events organizer has asked me to be their sound provider for some of their events nationwide! Really looking forward to it! Going to try and sort some short term transport


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Scramble
active member


Joined: 11/09/02
Posts: 2091
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #964128 - 14/01/12 11:45 PM
You do seem amazingly organized and determined for a 17-year-old (or for anyone, really), so that's probably not luck at all.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
alexfp



Joined: 14/09/10
Posts: 6
Re: How to get the funding to expand a start-up? new [Re: Joel Nichols]
      #965235 - 20/01/12 03:04 PM
an old Renault espace can be had dirt cheap and you'd be amazed how much PA you can get in one once all the seats come out...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Pages: 1 | 2 | (show all)

Rate this thread

Jump to

Extra Information
1 registered and 8 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  David Etheridge, James Perrett, Paul White, zenguitar, Martin Walker, Forum Admin, Hugh Robjohns, Zukan, Frank Eleveld, Will Betts,  
Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled
Rating:
Thread views: 14073

May 2014
On sale now at main newsagents and bookstores (or buy direct from the
SOS Web Shop)
SOS current Print Magazine: click here for FULL Contents list
Click image for May 2014
DAW Tips from SOS

 

Home | Search | News | Current Issue | Tablet Mag | Articles | Forum | Subscribe | Shop | Readers Ads

Advertise | Information | Digital Editions | Privacy Policy | Support | Login Help

 

Email: Contact SOS

Telephone: +44 (0)1954 789888

Fax: +44 (0)1954 789895

Registered Office: Media House, Trafalgar Way, Bar Hill, Cambridge, CB23 8SQ, United Kingdom.

Sound On Sound Ltd is registered in England and Wales.

Company number: 3015516 VAT number: GB 638 5307 26

         

All contents copyright © SOS Publications Group and/or its licensors, 1985-2014. All rights reserved.
The contents of this article are subject to worldwide copyright protection and reproduction in whole or part, whether mechanical or electronic, is expressly forbidden without the prior written consent of the Publishers. Great care has been taken to ensure accuracy in the preparation of this article but neither Sound On Sound Limited nor the publishers can be held responsible for its contents. The views expressed are those of the contributors and not necessarily those of the publishers.

Web site designed & maintained by PB Associates | SOS | Relative Media