Quote The real musiclover:

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I've discovered a Replay 16 sampling cartridge with no instructions? Shouldn't be too hard to suss out if I get it, should it?

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Yeah I have been after a Replay 16 for around five years now.


NCGM

Quote Neo-Classical Guitar Man:

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Yeah I have been after a Replay 16 for around five years now.


NCGM

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Have you ever been to one of those Atari shows they often have? I went to one many years ago at the Four Pillars Hotel in Osterley. "Goodmans Atari Show" i think it was called. Im sure you might be able to track Replay 16 down at one of those shows.

Pabs

there is a couple on ebay for about a fiver at the moment, they are excellent .. i used to make tons of music in the early 90's with one of them. try and get 'breakthrough' by the same people as sequencer one to use with it. it wont work with most of the decent sequencers because it plugs into the cartridge port where the dongles go

cheers
grainger

Quote Neo-Classical Guitar Man:

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Quote The real musiclover:

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I've discovered a Replay 16 sampling cartridge with no instructions? Shouldn't be too hard to suss out if I get it, should it?

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Yeah I have been after a Replay 16 for around five years now.


NCGM

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As can be seen from my February post up there ^, I said pm or email me if my Replay cartridge and floppy were of interest to you.

It appeared they were ‘cos back then we exchanged PMs and I offered to pop the items in the post… but you never gave me your snail mail address.

Tim ;o)

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Hi Tim,

I just had another quick read of your PM message and errr....I think I should pay more attention!

Well your offer is very kind one and I would like to give your Replay 16 a new home, so check your PM's again.


NCGM

I still use my Atari Mega STE for editing some MIDI gear (namely, Korg Wavestation A/D, Yamaha TG77, Roland D-50) through Steinberg Synthworks software. I find the Synthworks series the most productive tool for sculpting up new sounds and for managing effectively those synths - even better than SoundDiver and Galaxy Plus, which I use too.

I used the Atari with Cubase 2 and 3 before switching to Mac and Cubase 4 - and by the way, I completed the Cubase path through VST 5/32, SX, SX2 and SX3... but recently I switched to Logic Pro :-)

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Roberto Giannotta
www.musimac.it

I thought I was the only one until I arrived here!
I have 2 Atari 1040 ST units with original monitors. They have been in my home since 1989.
I am having a ball with Passport Master Tracks Pro. This is the sequencer I learned on and still rocks.
I transfer the tracks from my keyboards to the 1040 and clean up the data in Master Tracks.
Very easy to use and it doesn't ever crash!

Have a wonderful evening!
Russ

basically i use the atari only for midi...triggering hardware like drummachines,synths and samplers.
i have had my atari for about 14years now and still think its the tightest machine ever to trigger hardware.(i love it!!!)
i began using it when i was 14 and it still works great!
Atari MegaSTE 4MB,ext. HD,Cubase 2-3.1 + Score,Notator 3.21,Logic2.0,LOG3
i´m ashamed to say i lent it to someone for a while ....i was so happy to get it back lately.:)
now i´m trying to synchronize it with my mac (logic7) via smpte.so i could use the atari for the midistuff and use audio with the mac.
if anyone has done that before i´d appreciate help.

CHeers!

Hi Jacob,
the quickest way to do this is to use the Atari as a slave to the Mac. Get the Mac to output timecode which will be chased by the SMPTE feature in Unitor. If the Mac won't do it (I'm not a Mac Logic user so I'm guessing) then treat the Mac like a tape recorder and record one track of Audio with SMPTE from the Atari/unitor. Then play that back to the Atari and it should chase the timecode data.
Try it and see how you get on. Get back to me if there are any problems.
Best wishes,
Dave.

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Lots of Ataris which keep on going, 12 Kurzweil 1000 modules, a bunch of hardware synths. Still recording to tape -the old ways are best.....

Hi once again folks,
there's been some discussion on Tim Conrardy's Atari users group about using multiple sequencers on the Atari (as well as multiple STEEMs on a PC for those interested).
For example, Notator users will know that with 4 meg of memory you can get Notator to run up to four programs at the same time. Therefore, you could run KCS, Hybrid Arts and algorithmic apps all at the same time and see what you come up with!
I'll post any further comments from Tim's group here as soon as further feedbck occurs.
Best wishes,
Dave.

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Lots of Ataris which keep on going, 12 Kurzweil 1000 modules, a bunch of hardware synths. Still recording to tape -the old ways are best.....

Quote The real musiclover:

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I discovered a replay 16 sampling cartridge, with no instructions? Shouldn't be too hard to suss out if i get it, should it?

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I'm returning to this thread to say that I recently bought a Microdeal Replay 16, complete with original box, ring bound manual, floppy disk software and even a few software adverts from 1994 too! I did get back to Tim about his ST Replay cartridge and that works lovely too. Oh and if you are reading this Tim, I hope you have enjoyed the stuff I sent you.

I'm really very impressed with the Replay 16 and the only limitation I can see, is that it records directly into RAM but not to a hard drive. Perhaps someone here knows of software for the ST that can do this? Actually there is one I think on the web ftp sites 'hddirect.lzh', but it won't interface with any other sequencers.

Other cheap goodies I have bought are:

(1) Vidi ST video capture kit, which luckily had the original box, manuals, disks and so on.

(2) Practical Solutions Monitor Master for sharing one screen with mono and colour cables to view all screen resolutions.

(3) IDE to CompactFlash interface with 40pin slave socket (getting this soon)


I am quite surprised with how enjoyable using the Atari STe is again, after using my own PCs at home for the past eight years. Yes the STe is more limited compared with a modern day PC, but then again the STe is fast to boot from it's IDE drive and rock solid reliable.



NCGM

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Footloose and fancy free...gizz a job!

I've owned my STE 1040 2 meg from new for about fifteen years ago and still use it most days, running the very fine Passport Master Tracks Pro (v3.6) on it. MT Pro is the only sequencer I've really got into and my Atari is at the heart of my studio setup which includes:

Roland XP-50, JV-1080 and JV-880.
Novation KS5
E-mu Pro-cussion
ART DXR Elite & Multiverb LT
Alesis MIDIverb 4

MT Pro runs up to sixty-four tracks of MIDI data so can handle everything I throw at it although I've found that it's not keen on me sending it program change data for some reason. Given that I need to scroll through banks of patches a fair bit, this is a bit of a pain in the posterior! My STE's sole task these days is music but I also used it for word processing and even email and web surfing back in the day. I also own an STFM. Long live Fuji!

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"Ten thousand watts of power...news headlines on the hour tonight..."

My first experience with MIDI was on a Atari 1040ST running cubase at school in 1997, we then moved on to Logic on PC later in 1998/99
I always wanted an Atari though but when I got into making music at home I got a PC running Logic circa 2002
Now I use an MPC 2000XL as my main sequencer but I still want an Atari lol How about some vids of your setups with some music? All this gear is all great but I want to see it all in action!!
Here is mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt8xB-Pq_0c&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-Gov0AGQk&feature=channel_page

Edited by vinyl_junkie (22/02/09 03:08 PM)

Back again with another update!

I have found one or two programs that can record direct to the hard drive, which in my case is a 4GB CompactFlash card connected to an internal IDE interface inside my 4160 STe. The only negative is that these programs only handle 8 bit audio.


More bits of hardware have been added:

(1) ICD The Link 2 SCSI interface
(2) Yamaha CRW-8424S SCSI CD Writer
(3) Acard AEC-7720U IDE to SCSI adapter for connecting IDE stuff to the SCSI interface.

Using this new stuff I have burned a few Audio CDs and also imaged the hard drive to CD, just like using Ghost, True Image etc on a PC. Incidentally using CD-ROMs is much quicker than on a PC, even when there are thousands of files.


There are other bits of hardware that I might be tempted into getting from Ebay, but the main thing I would like is a decent monitor that can handle the colour and mono modes of the STe. Failing that a video adapter may suffice but they are known for poor quality usually.


NCGM

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Footloose and fancy free...gizz a job!

I've still got two Atari STs, but I can't think of anything I can do with them that I can't do better on a PC/MAC. I remember early home computers like Amstrad used to have programs to easily create vector graphics patterns using points of symmetry or pattern generators that were quite interesting. I've not seen anything quite like that for a PC.

Is there some audio equivalent for Atari, like a quirky program that really isn't available as a PC program? Anything specific/else?

Regards,

Isaac

Quote robegian:

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I used the Atari with Cubase 2 and 3 before switching to Mac and Cubase 4 - and by the way, I completed the Cubase path through VST 5/32, SX, SX2 and SX3... but recently I switched to Logic Pro :-)

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Sounds like the path I took, though mine was a little different swapping to Logic.

I had my cubase laptop and a few macs stolen in a burglary and my Cubase dongle along with it. Steinbergs policy in cases like this is either buy a complete new copy or f*ck off.

Guess which I did...

I'm now in the process of putting together a small Falcon based setup to run alongside the Macs, and as a result I'm looking for Logic to use on the Atari if anyone out there can help (Already in contact with Barrie at keychange).

I'm determined never to use a Steinberg product ever again.

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The website and the Atari bit

Quote IsaacIsaiah:

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I've still got two Atari STs, but I can't think of anything I can do with them that I can't do better on a PC/MAC. I remember early home computers like Amstrad used to have programs to easily create vector graphics patterns using points of symmetry or pattern generators that were quite interesting. I've not seen anything quite like that for a PC.

Is there some audio equivalent for Atari, like a quirky program that really isn't available as a PC program? Anything specific/else?

Regards,

Isaac

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Try Electronic Cow's scribble synth and a few other such programs. They are on Tim's Atari MIDI World site for download, among other similar interesting tools. Having said that, just how long that site remains is uncertain after the untimely death of it's author and creator.

Such a shame, I never knew him but by all accounts an all round decent guy.

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The website and the Atari bit

Did you ever manage to obtain Logic Audio for your Falcon?


NCGM

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Footloose and fancy free...gizz a job!

Not yet sadly, though I'm still occasionally looking. I do have Logic though, but I'm currently using Cubase again (But only on Atari).

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The website and the Atari bit

I may as well chip in here. Interesting that this particular thread started five years ago. not exactly the fastest moving thread on the web, but eccentric, and I like that

Ive recently set about redesigning - experimenting how I work in the studio. For ten years now I have worked completely in the box using only a PC or Mac, and made many commercial records that way. Before that I had a full on hardware studio with an Atari running Cubase.

I wanted to do some experimenting combing old style sequencers with my DAWs. I dont hate working with PC's or Mac's (I have both). On the contrary I will always use them but I wanted to inject something else in to what Im doing and finding the balance of incorporating the new additions which include a C Lab MKX Falcon running Cubase.

Ive only had a limited opportunity to use the c lab falcon but as expected it did exactly what I wanted it to do which was a combination of triggering VSTi's and real hardware Synth/Sampler (A lot of fun actually). I also have an MPC2000xl and have been comparing the groove between the Atari and the MPC. I don't say compare tightness because they are both V good in a kind of human(ish) way, but to me they have a different groove which I like. Being used to sample accurate VSTi playback for so long now the difference between using the Atari or the MPC is very real and definitely not imagined. What is exceptionally ace is using either of those to trigger real hardware synths + samplers which is much better than using a DAWs midi. Whilst triggering VI's and using the DAWs midi results in sample accurate play back that is not the case when using the DAWs midi for external stuff. I have no idea why DAWs still cant do this well today. But its also just playing those hardware synths, it feels a lot better. That area is like night and day compared to a DAWs VI Its difficult to define why No matter how low the latency I can get on my DAW it just never ever feels right and never has actually. I would even go as far to say that over the years I have become a far worse keyboard player than I was during my hardware days. Much of that has to do with the latency, especially if you have a full on session and then you have no choice but to paint notes in via the mouse, but its more than that. It makes you rigid, unfeeling in what you play and its really only quite recently these DAWs actually play back what you record in to them relatively accurately...but with something like an Atari or MPC you can be a lot more sloppy and it works (perhaps the lower resolution?). Hmmm Sloppy isnt really the best term, its more a dynamic, human thing. I always knew this, but I didn't realise until a week or so ago as I tested out the old Cubase/hardware stuff how big that difference really is.

One thing of interest is the Atari reacts much much better than the MPC to midi time code and midi clock. I have never been satisfied with the MPC in this area BUT it isn't really the MPC's fault because when I send a midi clock from the Atari to the MPC then its much better than if I send code to it from my DAW. So my system is now MTC from DAW to Atari which then sends a clock to the MPC. If I send MTC or Midi clock from either the Atari or the MPC to the DAW the results are not as good. Its better with the Atari, but I don't feel to comfortable having my DAWs audio clock controlled by a midi clock. Maybe Im just being paranoid? But never the less all these machines have to be synced and Im still working on the best method. The difficulty there again is the DAW computer latency. No matter how low the Latency is (and I can get really low with my RME) I can never get a virtual Drum machine to fully lock in with the external sequencers regardless of how much fiddling about I do delaying sync cloks etc. Yes, to the untrained ear it may sound fine, but its not close enough for me....groove is everything, and it has to be right. I have watched many videos on Youtube with people demonstrating their MPC's syncing to Pro tools, reason, whatever. BUT NONE OF THEM actually showed virtual instruments or a virtual drum machine being played form the DAW along with their MPC playing sounds in full sync ( I mean both sequencers running triggering stuff). Their all made with a one perspective point of view and it doesnt give the full story. Pretty amateur if you ask me because that area is crucial to how the combination works. The drift.out of sync is very subtle but for me its totally noticeable. Put it this way, its nowhere near as tight as something like an 808/303 combo.

If I can never get all these to sync up perfectly it wont be the end of the world. The purpose for the mega spot on sync is so that I could run appregiators, drum machines, synths etc from my daw in tandem with my hardware. But if I can only send midi notes to the Daws VI's then that's fine because the MPC and my sampler can easily do all the drums and my main outboard synths can do stuff like bass lines and then I can leave the VI's to do some of the more esoteric stuff (the lest locked in groovy stuff). But everything will be recorded to the Daw on separate tracks so sync is obviously high up on my agenda because for sure I will be working on a track record parts in and wish to sequence up stuff using the DAWs sequencer and VI's.

Im trying to marry the old with the new. I wont reject the new for old because that's not my style and I do like what I can do with my DAWs Over the years I have learned a lot about writing and mixing songs with basically just a computer and DAW and I wont throw that knowledge away or make the same mistake I made when I moved from a hardware set-up to a DAW only set-up without thinking it through properly. OMG, when I think back to one day I had a full hardware set-up, then suddenly an ITB set-up Im amazed I didn't end up in a ward somewhere. keep in mind that ten years ago DAWs were not like they are today, and neither were OS's . But im a little bored of the DAW now from an ergonomics point of view, very tired of staring at a screen all the time, I need a change of gig, I want to get a little more organic. Whether the music comes out better or not isn't really the point, its a personal thing. But my hunch is the music will come out better

As I read this back it seems a bit of a rambling mess, but well I am eccentric

Quote Rob456:

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As I read this back it seems a bit of a rambling mess, but well I am eccentric

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No, you're not rambling at all, and being an eccentric here is a real virtue, as any Atarian (or any fule) kno.

Dave.


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Lots of Ataris which keep on going, 12 Kurzweil 1000 modules, a bunch of hardware synths. Still recording to tape -the old ways are best.....

Quote James101:

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I've still got two Atari STs, but I can't think of anything I can do with them that I can't do better on a PC/MAC. I remember early home computers like Amstrad used to have programs to easily create vector graphics patterns using points of symmetry or pattern generators that were quite interesting. I've not seen anything quite like that for a PC.

Is there some audio equivalent for Atari, like a quirky program that really isn't available as a PC program? Anything specific/else?

---

I remember a craze for programs that generated fractal graphics.

When I started with personal computers (Sinclair ZX81 in 1981) I spent most of my time coding in BASIC. The really clever guys (who all seemed to be teenage boys) worked in machine code. As computers became more capable of doing useful stuff, the need for coding diminished. But I do rather miss it.

I never got into Z80 machine code, but I did a lot of 6502 (Commodore 64) and some 68000 (Atari ST). Compiled languages are all well and good, but if you have speed-critical processes machine code can’t be beaten. Ironically I think a well-structured piece of assembler code is still far easier to decipher than the masses of nonsense you see in a C program – those things are UGLY with a capital UG! With an assembler listing there's not a curly bracket in sight!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote Rob456:

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I'm trying to marry the old with the new. I wont reject the new for old because that's not my style and I do like what I can do with my DAWs Over the years I have learned a lot about writing and mixing songs with basically just a computer and DAW and I wont throw that knowledge away or make the same mistake I made when I moved from a hardware set-up to a DAW only set-up without thinking it through properly. OMG, when I think back to one day I had a full hardware set-up, then suddenly an ITB set-up Im amazed I didn't end up in a ward somewhere. keep in mind that ten years ago DAWs were not like they are today, and neither were OS's . But im a little bored of the DAW now from an ergonomics point of view, very tired of staring at a screen all the time, I need a change of gig, I want to get a little more organic. Whether the music comes out better or not isn't really the point, its a personal thing. But my hunch is the music will come out better

As I read this back it seems a bit of a rambling mess, but well I am eccentric

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Well I have been nodding like a demented donkey to what you have said. One day I had an all hardware setup with an Atari STE and Fostex digital multitrack, plus Fostex D5 DAT recorder and a few synths, modules, rack compressor/gate etc; the next day I had a big gaping hole in my room after selling my Fostex DMT8 v2 to a policeman in Birmingham and soon after I sold the DAT recorder....then the compressor and so on. I then had TEN painful wasted years of messing around trying to get a PC to recreate my old setup, and it is a battle that I did not win. So I am returning back to my hardware again and possibly a rackmount Fostex multitrack like the D2424LV. For the time being I will be using a Falcon 030 upgraded to 14MB and a 68882 co-processor and some nice Soundpool SPDIF and Steinberg FA8 and MIDEX+ interfaces. I say will be because it is all there setup waiting for me to use it, once I have tidied up my room. I'm also having a retro nostalgia trip with old home micros from my youth, which is making my room look like a bomb site!

As for thinking things through, I am not sure if it is possible to do this. It is too much of a minefield with so many questions and not many good answers. Although I am returning to hardware to rekindle my music making, I do expect to be forced into using PCs again in the future, mainly because hardware does not last forever and doubt manufacturers will return to making hardware again.


NCGM

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Footloose and fancy free...gizz a job!

My 2 sleep quietly, I hope - they may be dead, since it's about 4 years at least since I booted one up, purely to resuscitate an old tune which had never been audio multitracked (just a DAT master) but needed a revisit for a remix project. I still have most of the hardware that was used, so it was quite a trip to set everything up again, load up the original (12 yr old) floppies and try and get it all to work- most of which was to do with my brain, not the gear (that all worked fine). Amazing how not using a piece of software for a while means you haven't a got a clue how it worked when you go back to it, years after.

But otherwise, for daily music-making, no, the Ataris don't figure much anymore. The hardware I used then does still get used, though- I run a Logic based set up but my synths are mostly hardware, and some sampling duties still done in an Emu that offers something a bit different from Kontakt. Yep, timing issues can be a pain but it's still more fun than doing absolutely everything ITB.

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote Neo-Classical Guitar Man:

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Well I have been nodding like a demented donkey to what you have said. One day I had an all hardware setup with an Atari STE and Fostex digital multitrack, plus Fostex D5 DAT recorder and a few synths, modules, rack compressor/gate etc; the next day I had a big gaping hole in my room after selling my Fostex DMT8 v2 to a policeman in Birmingham and soon after I sold the DAT recorder....then the compressor and so on. I then had TEN painful wasted years of messing around trying to get a PC to recreate my old setup, and it is a battle that I did not win. So I am returning back to my hardware again and possibly a rackmount Fostex multitrack like the D2424LV. For the time being I will be using a Falcon 030 upgraded to 14MB and a 68882 co-processor and some nice Soundpool SPDIF and Steinberg FA8 and MIDEX+ interfaces. I say will be because it is all there setup waiting for me to use it, once I have tidied up my room. I'm also having a retro nostalgia trip with old home micros from my youth, which is making my room look like a bomb site!

As for thinking things through, I am not sure if it is possible to do this. It is too much of a minefield with so many questions and not many good answers. Although I am returning to hardware to rekindle my music making, I do expect to be forced into using PCs again in the future, mainly because hardware does not last forever and doubt manufacturers will return to making hardware again.


NCGM

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I hear ya loud and clear.

I was happily going along doing my thing with not a care in the world in regards my music making and then one day I bought a magazine (hmmm, it was sound on sound) and I looked at all these ads with Pro tools on them. Big fancy full page ads with glossy pictures stating "YOU can do it all with this". I had quite an excellent analog setup and then 10 days later it was nearly all gone and I took delivery of a Pro Tools system. I had absolutely no idea what I was letting my self in for.

I must ask you though. Dont you think going all the way back might be a little to much? I understand why your doing it, but I wonder if you couldnt just use your DAW as a big fancy processing tape machine an dyour Atari takes care of all the midi duties. Whilst you say your ten years with your Daw has defeated you I just wonder if its wise to throw away the knowledge you have gained. Im pretty sure you have learned a lot of new tricks.

Ive only been messing around with the Atari/MPC combo a few days now but its definitely working out great the way Im using the DAW for tracking. I still have access to the processing plugins, many of which I like. But now Im getting the vibe again and thats what really counts in my opinion. Of course you have to do what makes you happy, that is the most important thing. Making music was never supposed to be stressful...intense yes, but not hair pulling stuff.

Hardware: You mention that in your last sentence. Some hardware yes I agree...but never say never either. For the last three months Ive been keeping a close eye on Ebay and I have noticed an increase in hardware selling and the prices going up, and I mean any hardware. I've noticed samplers in particular going up in price, digital FX boxes, stuff that you couldn't get tuppence for a year or two ago all going up. Some of the analog stuff is just crazy prices though. I saw TB303 sell for 1800 pounds. The 303 was never 1800 quids worth of goodness. I have a feeling even the crappiest digital synths will start increasing in value. The younger generation I think are becoming obsessed with hardware and If I put my self in their shoes as in never expereinced using hardware to make music I would want to find out what it was like, and I would pay a lot for the privilege. That Falcon of yours might be fetching a grand in a year or two.. ...hang on to your hardware, and those old computers.

The Falcon 030 (I have two actually) will be in my possession for a long time I hope. I've also got three STE machines, all upgraded in some way and one that is a wonderful machine that has been modernised.

As for PCs, I do not plan to stop using them for music altogether as they are far too useful. I think they lend themselves very nicely to offline editing or multitrack mixing with a suitable hardware interface. I have a little old Kawai MM-16 MIDI mixer that I plan on using to mix audio with, and others on the net use them for that too.



Like you say, just do whatever works for you and to hell with everything else. I also have played guitar since 1991 and have a rackmount Marshall setup with 4x12 cab and a humble Yamaha FX500 processor, plus Rolls MIDI Buddy pedal board. After using many different VST virtual plugins like Amplitube and Guitar Rig etc, would I sell my Marshall setup and replace it with software? There is no way in hell I would do this! Plugins are a convenient way of trying out different guitar sounds on a clean recorded signal, to aid in deciding what type of sound you want, but they are not good enough to feature in the final mix. However if I did not have my Marshall setup, I would probably use plugins until I could afford a proper setup.


NCGM

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Footloose and fancy free...gizz a job!

Quote Rob456:

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I was happily going along doing my thing with not a care in the world in regards my music making and then one day I bought a magazine (hmmm, it was sound on sound) and I looked at all these ads with Pro tools on them. Big fancy full page ads with glossy pictures stating "YOU can do it all with this". I had quite an excellent analog setup and then 10 days later it was nearly all gone and I took delivery of a Pro Tools system. I had absolutely no idea what I was letting my self in for

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Yeah. I bought my first Atari on very much the same sort of whim :-) I think you generally buy your first ANYTHING from a position of ignorance. Sometimes you get lucky.

Quote The Elf:

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I never got into Z80 machine code, but I did a lot of 6502 (Commodore 64) and some 68000 (Atari ST). Compiled languages are all well and good, but if you have speed-critical processes machine code can’t be beaten. Ironically I think a well-structured piece of assembler code is still far easier to decipher than the masses of nonsense you see in a C program – those things are UGLY with a capital UG! With an assembler listing there's not a curly bracket in sight!

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It's all about how you write it. In my life I've written literally hundreds of thousands of lines of code in assorted languages, but C remains my personal favourite. You can write rubbish in any language, but I loved the clarity with which I could express myself in C. Java just doesn't cut it by comparison. Sure, the basic syntax is derived from C and the object oriented stuff is well implemented but it's been surrounded by so much cruft in the way of frameworks and annotations and code generators and God knows what that any pretence at elegance vapourised long ago.

Hmmm ... think I'm wandering off topic a bit. Sorry.

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio