Quote Scouser:

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Do you think stripping back 3rd or 4th verse may also help with arrangement ? Or is this likely to be too difficult with the drum files that I have ?

Maybe the only way to find out is to have a go ...

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As you say, just give it a try.

Creating some light and shade is important in a song and helps to maintain interest. The more brave you can be in dropping parts in some sections then the more you can benefit from bringing those parts back in later. Be brave!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

I listen to almost all the songs that are put up here for evaluation and if I listen right to the end, it does it for me, and it did. I do take the point about being so exercised by pitch and timing we stifle the emotion, this song cries out for bit where the vocals soar, maybe at the end of a phrase, easier said than sung of course and avoiding the X-Factor 1 tone up modulation. That being said, there are very few amongst us that can be gifted singers and composers - I wish LOL

Well done.

Quote OneWorld:

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I listen to almost all the songs that are put up here for evaluation and if I listen right to the end, it does it for me, and it did. I do take the point about being so exercised by pitch and timing we stifle the emotion, this song cries out for bit where the vocals soar, maybe at the end of a phrase,


Well done.

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Thanks Oneworld..

I think im going to have another go at the chorus vocal, I may not be able to take it where I want to, pitch wise, but maybe I can get some more expression in there. It's worth a try..

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www.myspace.com/joekmurphy

Ha, nice! It's amazing what you can do really.

Imho the side-stick sample could be louder right from the start, as it sounds retiring compared to the kick.

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Composer;
www.ogonline.org

Back again chaps,

I have had a bash at a different chorus, to try and get a bit more passion/dynamics into the vocal. A few people here thought it may improve matters, so I thought it was worth a go. Nothing lost. I haven't done too much to it until i decide which way to go with it, I feel it could be difficult to make it belong to the rest of the track ? Don't know if it works ? Would really appreciate some feedback on this..

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=22796 6&projectId=35307

Original chorus here

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=227976&projectI d=35307

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www.myspace.com/joekmurphy

Love it. It gives the song a kind of problem/solution structure. The chorus now offers resolution to the sentiment of the verse. It's hard to explain, but for me it sort of completes the loop. Also I think it will indirectly lessen the need you felt for the instrumentation to lift the chorus. I'll admit it took a few listens though because I'd become familiar with the original version, but in my opinion it's the way to go.

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Not much in life worth running for. Or from.

Good stuff on the chorus change, a real lift in texture. Now you just have a tonal change in your voice to cover up. There's more proximity effect in the chorus vocal, and it's louder and edgier.

How does this relate to the new side-stick section?

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Composer;
www.ogonline.org

Quote oggyb:

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Good stuff on the chorus change, a real lift in texture. Now you just have a tonal change in your voice to cover up. There's more proximity effect in the chorus vocal, and it's louder and edgier.

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For me, although I like the idea of the new chorus, more dynamic, etc, I just cant see how it can be made to blend in with the existing vocals, it sounds so different, like its been dropped in. So how does one cover the tonal change ?

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How does this relate to the new side-stick section?

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I'm not sure I understand the question oggy ? The chorus change itself doesn't bare any relation to the side stick.. I have upped the overall level of side stick, but maybe still not enough..

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www.myspace.com/joekmurphy

Quote Scouser:

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Quote oggyb:

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Good stuff on the chorus change, a real lift in texture. Now you just have a tonal change in your voice to cover up. There's more proximity effect in the chorus vocal, and it's louder and edgier.

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For me, although I like the idea of the new chorus, more dynamic, etc, I just cant see how it can be made to blend in with the existing vocals, it sounds so different, like its been dropped in. So how does one cover the tonal change ? .

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I think most people that would have listened would have assumed you lifted the new vox so we could hear it.

Suggest you need to go back and mix it in keeping with the track

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Madman_Greg

I meant, where is this in relation to the sidestick moment. It's difficult to keep track of the arrangement when you only post 30 seconds or so.

Madman_Greg is right. You just need to match the new vox with the old in terms of your mix goal.

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Composer;
www.ogonline.org

Quote Scouser:

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Quote oggyb:

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Good stuff on the chorus change, a real lift in texture. Now you just have a tonal change in your voice to cover up. There's more proximity effect in the chorus vocal, and it's louder and edgier.

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For me, although I like the idea of the new chorus, more dynamic, etc, I just cant see how it can be made to blend in with the existing vocals, it sounds so different, like its been dropped in. So how does one cover the tonal change ?

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If you are saying the comping is pretty obvious: it is.

Sometimes such things are used for effect and can work really well: here it does work IMHO, the difference in use and position on the mike is too extreme.

Just re-track the entire vocal to suit the new arrangement.

Reg

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Google less; read more!

I think the change in tonality would be just as effective but less obvious if you continued the double tracked vocal from 'today, today'. Maybe even an octave down and fairly savagely pitch corrected but just subtly blended in? If I'm singing outside my comfort zone sometimes I'll bluntly pitch correct a guide vocal in variaudio, monitor that to pitch a complete take to, then delete it.

Extreme changes in vocal tonality never seemed to do the Travelling Wilburys any harm!

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Not much in life worth running for. Or from.

The difference in vocal sound is quite stark, and I'm not sure it sits comfortably. When you hit the louder notes I can your recording room in the background and that sounds a bit odd too.

I like the idea above about doubling the chorus vocal - that way the difference in tone may sound more intentional. Or, as I usually describe it: "when in hot water, decide you need a bath..."

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Thanks again for taking the time to give me your feedback chaps, much appreciated as ever..

I'm not sure that "I" can fix the new chorus with volume or anything else. It seems to me that as Reg pointed out "Just re-track the entire vocal to suit the new arrangement"

Oggy, sorry about the short clips, I just assumed people may not want or have the time to listen to whole arrangement each time i update, so I have just uploaded clips of the parts im working on.

Mike, just to clarify, when you say, it may be just as effective to double track the chorus, do you mean the original chorus or the new ?

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www.myspace.com/joekmurphy

Sorry I realise now it wasn't clear. At the end of the original verse you already double track the words 'today, today', I just thought continuing that into the new chorus would lessen the effect of the tonal change, & blend the two sections better without affecting the impact of the chorus.

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Not much in life worth running for. Or from.

Well, after a couple of days of trying lots of the ideas discussed, im beaten. It didn't seem to matter what I tried, it refused to fit in. Well I guess it's not a total waste of time as you sometimes have to try, before you know..

Think i will revert back to original chorus.

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www.myspace.com/joekmurphy

Still makes sense to retrack the whole vocal with the changes if you have time.

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Composer;
www.ogonline.org

Quote Scouser:

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Well, after a couple of days of trying lots of the ideas discussed, im beaten. It didn't seem to matter what I tried, it refused to fit in. Well I guess it's not a total waste of time as you sometimes have to try, before you know..

Think i will revert back to original chorus.

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Joe

If you are struggling to mix a re-tracked vocal remember that you are still likely to have to split the verse and the chorus out onto different tracks and apply different mix solutions the cope with the different dynamics and different vocal spectrum of your voice when it is singing hard.

Reg

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Google less; read more!

Reg makes a good point.

Even in quite a short/simple song it's not unusual for me to have 8 or more tracks covering the lead vocal, with levels, EQ and processing dedicated to specific sections of the song. Doing it this way avoids some of the necessity for automation, which can be a cumbersome way of achieving the same end. You can then group all of the vocal tracks to give you simplified overall control for fine-tuning.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote RegressiveRock:

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Quote Scouser:

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Well, after a couple of days of trying lots of the ideas discussed, im beaten. It didn't seem to matter what I tried, it refused to fit in. Well I guess it's not a total waste of time as you sometimes have to try, before you know..

Think i will revert back to original chorus.

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Joe

If you are struggling to mix a re-tracked vocal remember that you are still likely to have to split the verse and the chorus out onto different tracks and apply different mix solutions the cope with the different dynamics and different vocal spectrum of your voice when it is singing hard.

Reg

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I would go as far as saying in some situations they should be tracked separately, for example doing the breathy / proximity thing for the verse, versus a more emotional chorus section

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Madman_Greg

Quote:

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Joe

If you are struggling to mix a re-tracked vocal remember that you are still likely to have to split the verse and the chorus out onto different tracks and apply different mix solutions the cope with the different dynamics and different vocal spectrum of your voice when it is singing hard.

Reg

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Quote:

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Even in quite a short/simple song it's not unusual for me to have 8 or more tracks covering the lead vocal, with levels, EQ and processing dedicated to specific sections of the song. Doing it this way avoids some of the necessity for automation, which can be a cumbersome way of achieving the same end. You can then group all of the vocal tracks to give you simplified overall control for fine-tuning

Elf

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Good point, I actually have 7 tracks of vocals for this song.

The problem i'm having with the new chorus is that is sounds so different, I haven't even tried to make it fit. My feeling is that it is not something that a compresssor or eq etc etc can fix, and therefore my efforts would be in vain. Many of you guys on here have a lot more talent than myself for this kind of thing, so I'm not saying it can't be done.

Reg & Oggy have both suggested a re take of the whole vocal, and I can understand why. This could make for a more consistent vocal. The main reason for not doing so, is that I am really quite happy with what I have captured in the verses and seriously doubt that I can reproduce it. I dont want to fix elements that are not broken if I can help it.

Also i'm not sure I have the know how, to make this idea work, ie soft to loud dynamics..
I'm guessing that for the intimate parts, I have got the kind of sound I wanted by being close to the mic with next to no compression, the new chorus would require very different processing, my thinking is that maintaining mic distance and applying compression to compensate would be the way to go.

It seems to me that soft to loud vocals are common place in music production and the transition between the two are very transparent.

My feeling is that if all my tracking had been done at the same time, it may have had a more consistent sound to it, however im not sure I would have known how to apply the correct processing..

So in essence I have come to a kind of stand still, with the track...

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www.myspace.com/joekmurphy

Hi again,

I've had a bit of a break from this latley and come back with fresh ears, decided to just keep it simple, reverted back to original chorus..

Made a few minor changes here and there and mixed a pre master version here:

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?_refresher=0. 83143985&_refresher=0.33349746&trackId=229411&projectId=35307#

If anyone feels I have made a backwards step from previous mixes, or just have some general comments please let me know..

Would be very interested to know how much of an effect mastering has on a track, as my experience is very limited. I have had one of my tracks mastered and wasn't that impressed, just seemed to my ears that it was boosted in certain freq, rather than providing any glue and possibly balance, if that makes sense..

All i have are a few plugins for mastering, can reasonable results be had this was or is it very much a job for the pro's ?

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www.myspace.com/joekmurphy