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Scouser



Joined: 04/10/04
Posts: 557
Does my arrangement maintain interest ?
      #1016753 - 02/11/12 10:56 AM
Any thoughts on this arrangement would be appreciated:

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.project?projectId=35307

I am relatively happy with the first half of the song, but feel it needs something more to maintain interest. Maybe its a symptom of a weak song/arrangement ?

It seems to me there are many commercial songs out there that plod along without having the need to keep adding things, for example I have been listening to "Tempest" Dylans new album and the title track is fifteen minutes long, at no point do I feel it gets boring, yet there is very little variation through the track ?

I think as an amateur, its an easy trap to fall into thinking that adding things will maintain interest, so what other things should I be looking to do to keep interest there ?

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BJG145



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016760 - 02/11/12 11:48 AM
Quote Scouser:

I think as an amateur, its an easy trap to fall into thinking that adding things will maintain interest, so what other things should I be looking to do to keep interest there ?



In general, variation, and passion.

Eg at 1.20, you could add interest by introducing another element like a string bed or vocal harmony, change the guitar pick, or inject more feeling into the delivery. The tone and pitching in the vocal is great but I'd like to hear you let go a bit. Dylan can be brilliantly expressive.


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Dynamic Mike



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016876 - 03/11/12 01:27 AM
I think the arrangement is fine, but I'd have to suggest the vocal (or maybe the lyric) appears devoid of any kind of sincerity. I think sometimes we get so hung up on pitch & timing, we neglect to think about the lyrics themselves whilst performing. I think in this genre emotion is critical, and people pick up on this pretty quickly & lose interest in the outcome if it isn't there. I've realised with the lanes comping feature in cubase 6, often the better I sound, the worse it is!

I really rated 'turn my world around' when you posted that (and still do). Not much going on in that but it's heartfelt & totally engaging. In fact I played it three times on the run, whilst typing this response.

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Gone To Lunch
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016896 - 03/11/12 12:33 PM
I really enjoyed the song and thought it well written, sung and played.

BUT, just my 2p worth...

You could do more with the drums, which are a bit 'samey' all the way through...

Things like subtle variations between verse and chorus, typically if having a full back-beat on the chorus, use a side-stick on the verse etc, or gentle hi-hats for verse and then ride for chorus etc etc.

Some of the power of the chorus is lost because it does not vary dynamically that much from the verse, but rather than overload the chorus, strip down verse.

To get the advantage of going big for a chorus, you need to have a smaller verse in front of it !


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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016908 - 03/11/12 02:04 PM
Hey thanks so much guys for taking the time to listen and post

Quote:

I think the arrangement is fine, but I'd have to suggest the vocal (or maybe the lyric) appears devoid of any kind of sincerity.




Thats a fair point, my own feeling is that the verses are sounding ok, vocally speaking, but the chorus comes and your right, it lacks expression, makes me want to go to sleep. I did wonder whether it even needs a chorus...

Quote:

You could do more with the drums, which are a bit 'samey' all the way through..




Very true, without sounding like im making excuses, I am somewhat limited by the parts I get as its a collaboration, so it's my only means of getting live drums, its either that or my own programmed drums, which are not very good..

The song is still evolving as im still working on it, but the chorus is problematic, as I don't have the range to lift it an octave higher vocally, which would probably help it no end..

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The Elf
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016909 - 03/11/12 02:25 PM
Has it been taken down? I went to listen and couldn't see any audio file to play on the link you gave.

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Phil O
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: The Elf]
      #1016910 - 03/11/12 02:27 PM
Click the 'tracks' tab Elf.


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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016911 - 03/11/12 02:28 PM
If you still looking Elf its here :

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=225581&projectI d=35307

--------------------

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Dynamic Mike



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016914 - 03/11/12 02:35 PM
Don't lose the chorus! The arrangement is great & the pedal steel is gorgeous. What about some backing vocals to lift it? Just something subtle to underpin it a bit & differentiate it from the verse. But please not cliched girlie stuff though, it's way too good for that!

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016940 - 03/11/12 04:37 PM
Quote:

I think as an amateur, its an easy trap to fall into thinking that adding things will maintain interest




And thats what i've done Have updated track here :

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?_refresher=0. 1439256&trackId=225998&projectId=35307#

Hopefully it helps a little ?

--------------------

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Gone To Lunch
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016945 - 03/11/12 05:59 PM
Actually, when I said 'you could do more with the drums' I should really have said less....

What I meant was, vary them, not add parts or layers, and one often effective variation is to REDUCE for the verse etc...

(Pardon me if I'm telling you what you already know...)


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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016955 - 03/11/12 07:42 PM
Quote:

Actually, when I said 'you could do more with the drums' I should really have said less....




Was thinking the same actually maybe I could edit the drum tracks I have in some way, reduce it a little here and there ? Nothing lost in trying....

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oggyb



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016975 - 04/11/12 12:45 AM
Guys all said good stuff above. One thing jumped out at me and I need to say it.
Third verse... drop everything but the guitar and build back up from there. The little break from 1'46 is so lovely at that moment, and from "started out all over" you could even do that line a cappella then bring a similar guitar line back in from line 2, then kicks, then bass, then hats, then fill to chorus +octave and harmonies.

An auxiliary comment: complete the "fix" by singing the first 2 lines of the first verse over side-stick instead of full snare hits.

Then the arrangement would be perfect to my ears ^__^

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The Elf
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1016985 - 04/11/12 10:52 AM
Only just come back to this. Thanks to Phil O for helping me out with the link.

Another really nice song, Scouser. The others here have given much of the guidance I might have supplied. The drums are a bit heavy in the verses - drop the snare back to a rim and it should start to give the arrangement some shape. Also try dropping the drums as a lead-in to the last chorus.

I have a thing about 'roomy' drums, and I find that snare distracting. I'd want something much drier and brighter, but that's just my own taste.

I was on the Isle of Wight two weeks back (stayed at that amazing hotel with Ric and Maggie!). If I had had the presence of mind I really should have stopped in to say hi!

--------------------
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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017182 - 05/11/12 04:17 PM
Thanks so much for everyones input, keep em coming as I will be working on the song over the next couple of weeks and will certainly be trying some of your ideas

Quote:

I was on the Isle of Wight two weeks back (stayed at that amazing hotel with Ric and Maggie!). If I had had the presence of mind I really should have stopped in to say hi!




Anytime Elf, if you are ever in my neck of the woods again, your more than welcome to drop by..

--------------------

www.myspace.com/joekmurphy


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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017635 - 07/11/12 09:59 PM
Quote:

drop the snare back to a rim and it should start to give the arrangement some shape




This is one of the things I wanted to try out, putting a rim sample in is no problem, I can also hear how this would work quite nicely.

The problem I have is that all the drum tracks have snare bleed on them, especially the overhead and hi hat tracks. So it's not just a case of muting the snare on each track as this results in poor sound with the hats sounding out of time. Whats the best way to deal with this ?

Any ideas ?

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The Elf
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017647 - 07/11/12 10:44 PM
You could try ducking the drum buss from a programmed, or triggered, rim sample. A little suitable ambience on the rim sound will help to hide the join. A few dB of ducking may be all that's required to get something fairly benign and transparent.

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017749 - 08/11/12 04:57 PM
Thanks for that Elf, I think I can understand the concept, however I haven't ever used ducking, so it looks like im going to need to learn how to use it.

I'm guessing that I need my rim sample in place and then insert a ducker on the drum bus, which will be triggered by the rim sample ?

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oggyb



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017753 - 08/11/12 05:18 PM
Correct, you'll trigger the compressor on the drums buss using the sidechain.

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017761 - 08/11/12 05:55 PM
Thanks oggy, much appreciated, im much clearer now

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017775 - 08/11/12 09:27 PM
I guess I must be doing something wrong as im not getting very desirable results ?

Not sure how much the snare sound can be reduced by these means ?

Just to recap I have inserted compressor on tracks I want to effect ( Drum Group ) activated side chain, selected rimshot and activated side chain in send to 100%

Then played around with the usual suspects - Threshold - Ratio - Attack and Release

Threshold is having the biggest effect, but even when I pull it right down the snare is still there, is that normal ? As I am trying to replace the snare with a soft rimshot the snare cant afford to be heard ?

Release seems also to be having and effect, but ratio and attack don't seem to be doing much.

It might be worth mentioning that the drum group that i am trying to effect has 4 tracks BD & Hats are mono and Toms & OH are stereo..

Any ideas..

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www.myspace.com/joekmurphy


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Madman_Greg



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017778 - 08/11/12 09:47 PM


you might find some here for your specific DAW

google search SOS side chain compressor

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Madman_Greg


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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017781 - 08/11/12 10:12 PM
Before I tried the ducking I watched a couple of you tube vids and read the sos article here

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb08/articles/cubasetech_0208.htm

All I can think is maybe because all files are not the same, ie some mono, some stereo ?

The above article mentioned side chain filtering, maybe thats a possibilty (not sure how to go about that)

Or maybe im doing something wrong..

Also meant to ask, how transparent can ducking in this situation be ? So I know what to aim for..

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Madman_Greg



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017787 - 08/11/12 10:39 PM


This vid uses filtering as an example

http://en.wikiaudio.org/Logic:_Side_chain_compression_(ducki...

and you might find this worth a watch as well

http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=11305

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Madman_Greg


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The Elf
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017872 - 09/11/12 01:40 PM
Don't overthink the ducking. It might work - it might not.

Just let the rim duck the whole stereo drum buss (assuming you've grouped your drums!) by 3-6dB and see if you can get something that sounds fairly natural. If you can, trigger the rim from the snare itself so you get tight timing. Add a bit of ambience to the rim so it sustains as long as the snare.

All you're trying to do is mask the snare with the rim - making the ear hear it over and above the snare. You won't get a perfect replacement, but with any luck you should be able to get something relatively convincing. I've done this a number of times, particularly with jazz and country mixes and it can work really well.

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017899 - 09/11/12 03:01 PM
In that case it's not working..

Played about for hours, not a desirable result.. So I guess im stuck with what I have unless there is another way of doing it ?

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Madman_Greg



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017901 - 09/11/12 03:11 PM


you can duck the whole snare using the rim shot as a trigger

and / or filter certain snare freqs out using the rim shot as the trigger

have you had a go at both approaches ?

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017902 - 09/11/12 03:15 PM
Yep, have tried...

Just seeing what EQ can do ..

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oggyb



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017907 - 09/11/12 03:31 PM
EQ will just make it sound like a weedy version of the snare.

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017936 - 09/11/12 05:12 PM
Well I would be interested to know what peoples thoughts here are, before I write it off..

This is my effort with ducking:

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=22713 3&projectId=35307

Can still hear snare, but I think im expecting too much? I don't think the ducking is too bad ? it's just that the rimshot doesn't seem to belong to the kit ? Have added some ambient reverb, but still lacking.

Original is here for comparing:

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=22599 8&projectId=35307

Thoughts please..

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The Elf
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017942 - 09/11/12 05:26 PM
It's sort of getting there. That rim sample is too loud and too dry. It needs to be pushed back to make it part of the kit. Try backing it off by at least -3dB and balance it up as part of the kit. Also try a brighter reverb - a 0.5 second or so plate might work.

--------------------
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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1017961 - 09/11/12 08:01 PM
Thanks Elf, will try that... Hopefully I can reduce rim without the snare taking over again.

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The Elf
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018015 - 10/11/12 10:10 AM
Oh, and make sure the signal you're sending from the rim to the compressor side-chain is pre-fader - else when you move the level of the rim with the fader the side-chain signal will reduce too, which is not helpful!

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018054 - 10/11/12 03:56 PM
Thanks for that Elf, didn't know that, will update soon for opinions ...

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018057 - 10/11/12 04:29 PM
Have adjusted as suggested, is it now a little too quiet or is it uneven or both !

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=22729 7&projectId=35307

Original rim for comparison:

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=227133&projectI d=35307

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018065 - 10/11/12 05:29 PM
Just noticed, the ducking is messing up my cymbals on the OH ?

I suppose it's an important lesson when collaborating, to get the right part to start with..

Also wondering whether end result will actually improve the song ?

Was hoping to strip drums right back in 3rd or 4th verse, but I just don't see how that's possible with what I have ? Maybe if I mute all drum tracks and just have rimshot, I guess that might be a way around it.

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The Elf
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018083 - 10/11/12 08:49 PM
Nice job!

It's not a free lunch, so yes, you're going to suffer the drop in the overheads in order to duck the snare. There are more things you can do to mitigate this (and one reason for adding the plate reverb to the rim as I suggested), but I don't think it's at all bad. Be subtle with the ducking - 3dB-4dB is often enough. Keep the compressor's release short.

I can't say I'm mad about the rim sound you've chosen - it 'tocks', rather than 'ticks'. Personally I'd look for something brighter and still with a longer, brighter reverb tail. But I think you've done a good job and it does work!

Don't hold the rim pattern going too long - go back to the snare on "living in the moment...".

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: The Elf]
      #1018152 - 11/11/12 08:23 PM
Quote The Elf:

Nice job!

It's not a free lunch, so yes, you're going to suffer the drop in the overheads in order to duck the snare. There are more things you can do to mitigate this (and one reason for adding the plate reverb to the rim as I suggested), but I don't think it's at all bad. Be subtle with the ducking - 3dB-4dB is often enough. Keep the compressor's release short.




I Agree Elf, it sounds like its improving, especially listening after taking a break..

Quote:

I can't say I'm mad about the rim sound you've chosen - it 'tocks', rather than 'ticks'. Personally I'd look for something brighter and still with a longer, brighter reverb tail. But I think you've done a good job and it does work!





I know exactly what you mean about it tocking, does this tick a bit more ?

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=22753 5&projectId=35307

Quote:

Don't hold the rim pattern going too long - go back to the snare on "living in the moment




It's sounding better now to my ears. Is the transition back into "living in the moment" ok ?

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The Elf
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018156 - 11/11/12 09:11 PM
By George, I think you've got it!

Maybe bring the rim back up dB or so (or just lift it a tad as you near the point where the snare is going to return - just like a drummer beginning to hit harder as he gets excited near the transition), now it sounds like part of the kit, but that's about it. I think it works great!

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Scouser



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018240 - 12/11/12 01:48 PM
Well im very glad it's sounding ok..

Do you think stripping back 3rd or 4th verse may also help with arrangement ? Or is this likely to be too difficult with the drum files that I have ?

Maybe the only way to find out is to have a go ... It's just that there have been some great suggestions on this posting that I would like to try..

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The Elf
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018265 - 12/11/12 04:10 PM
Quote Scouser:

Do you think stripping back 3rd or 4th verse may also help with arrangement ? Or is this likely to be too difficult with the drum files that I have ?

Maybe the only way to find out is to have a go ...



As you say, just give it a try.

Creating some light and shade is important in a song and helps to maintain interest. The more brave you can be in dropping parts in some sections then the more you can benefit from bringing those parts back in later. Be brave!

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OneWorld



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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018283 - 12/11/12 06:23 PM
I listen to almost all the songs that are put up here for evaluation and if I listen right to the end, it does it for me, and it did. I do take the point about being so exercised by pitch and timing we stifle the emotion, this song cries out for bit where the vocals soar, maybe at the end of a phrase, easier said than sung of course and avoiding the X-Factor 1 tone up modulation. That being said, there are very few amongst us that can be gifted singers and composers - I wish LOL

Well done.


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Scouser



Joined: 04/10/04
Posts: 557
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: OneWorld]
      #1018301 - 12/11/12 09:11 PM
Quote OneWorld:

I listen to almost all the songs that are put up here for evaluation and if I listen right to the end, it does it for me, and it did. I do take the point about being so exercised by pitch and timing we stifle the emotion, this song cries out for bit where the vocals soar, maybe at the end of a phrase,


Well done.




Thanks Oneworld..

I think im going to have another go at the chorus vocal, I may not be able to take it where I want to, pitch wise, but maybe I can get some more expression in there. It's worth a try..

--------------------

www.myspace.com/joekmurphy


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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1577
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018323 - 13/11/12 01:20 AM
Ha, nice! It's amazing what you can do really.

Imho the side-stick sample could be louder right from the start, as it sounds retiring compared to the kick.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


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Scouser



Joined: 04/10/04
Posts: 557
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018585 - 14/11/12 03:15 PM
Back again chaps,

I have had a bash at a different chorus, to try and get a bit more passion/dynamics into the vocal. A few people here thought it may improve matters, so I thought it was worth a go. Nothing lost. I haven't done too much to it until i decide which way to go with it, I feel it could be difficult to make it belong to the rest of the track ? Don't know if it works ? Would really appreciate some feedback on this..

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=22796 6&projectId=35307

Original chorus here

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=227976&projectI d=35307

--------------------

www.myspace.com/joekmurphy


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Dynamic Mike



Joined: 31/12/06
Posts: 1841
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018654 - 15/11/12 12:31 AM
Love it. It gives the song a kind of problem/solution structure. The chorus now offers resolution to the sentiment of the verse. It's hard to explain, but for me it sort of completes the loop. Also I think it will indirectly lessen the need you felt for the instrumentation to lift the chorus. I'll admit it took a few listens though because I'd become familiar with the original version, but in my opinion it's the way to go.

--------------------
Disclaimer: The views or opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the poster by the time you read this.


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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1577
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018750 - 15/11/12 07:05 PM
Good stuff on the chorus change, a real lift in texture. Now you just have a tonal change in your voice to cover up. There's more proximity effect in the chorus vocal, and it's louder and edgier.

How does this relate to the new side-stick section?

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


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Scouser



Joined: 04/10/04
Posts: 557
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: oggyb]
      #1018759 - 15/11/12 08:34 PM
Quote oggyb:

Good stuff on the chorus change, a real lift in texture. Now you just have a tonal change in your voice to cover up. There's more proximity effect in the chorus vocal, and it's louder and edgier.




For me, although I like the idea of the new chorus, more dynamic, etc, I just cant see how it can be made to blend in with the existing vocals, it sounds so different, like its been dropped in. So how does one cover the tonal change ?


Quote:

How does this relate to the new side-stick section?




I'm not sure I understand the question oggy ? The chorus change itself doesn't bare any relation to the side stick.. I have upped the overall level of side stick, but maybe still not enough..

--------------------

www.myspace.com/joekmurphy


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Madman_Greg



Joined: 07/12/06
Posts: 728
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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018773 - 15/11/12 09:53 PM
Quote Scouser:

Quote oggyb:

Good stuff on the chorus change, a real lift in texture. Now you just have a tonal change in your voice to cover up. There's more proximity effect in the chorus vocal, and it's louder and edgier.




For me, although I like the idea of the new chorus, more dynamic, etc, I just cant see how it can be made to blend in with the existing vocals, it sounds so different, like its been dropped in. So how does one cover the tonal change ? .






I think most people that would have listened would have assumed you lifted the new vox so we could hear it.

Suggest you need to go back and mix it in keeping with the track

--------------------
Madman_Greg


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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1577
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018785 - 15/11/12 11:02 PM
I meant, where is this in relation to the sidestick moment. It's difficult to keep track of the arrangement when you only post 30 seconds or so.

Madman_Greg is right. You just need to match the new vox with the old in terms of your mix goal.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 5585
Loc: Buntingford, Herts
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018790 - 15/11/12 11:32 PM
Quote Scouser:

Quote oggyb:

Good stuff on the chorus change, a real lift in texture. Now you just have a tonal change in your voice to cover up. There's more proximity effect in the chorus vocal, and it's louder and edgier.




For me, although I like the idea of the new chorus, more dynamic, etc, I just cant see how it can be made to blend in with the existing vocals, it sounds so different, like its been dropped in. So how does one cover the tonal change ?






If you are saying the comping is pretty obvious: it is.

Sometimes such things are used for effect and can work really well: here it does work IMHO, the difference in use and position on the mike is too extreme.

Just re-track the entire vocal to suit the new arrangement.

Reg

--------------------
Google less; read more!


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Dynamic Mike



Joined: 31/12/06
Posts: 1841
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018802 - 16/11/12 12:40 AM
I think the change in tonality would be just as effective but less obvious if you continued the double tracked vocal from 'today, today'. Maybe even an octave down and fairly savagely pitch corrected but just subtly blended in? If I'm singing outside my comfort zone sometimes I'll bluntly pitch correct a guide vocal in variaudio, monitor that to pitch a complete take to, then delete it.

Extreme changes in vocal tonality never seemed to do the Travelling Wilburys any harm!

--------------------
Disclaimer: The views or opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the poster by the time you read this.


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The Elf
active member


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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018817 - 16/11/12 08:24 AM
The difference in vocal sound is quite stark, and I'm not sure it sits comfortably. When you hit the louder notes I can your recording room in the background and that sounds a bit odd too.

I like the idea above about doubling the chorus vocal - that way the difference in tone may sound more intentional. Or, as I usually describe it: "when in hot water, decide you need a bath..."

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.


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Scouser



Joined: 04/10/04
Posts: 557
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018834 - 16/11/12 10:07 AM
Thanks again for taking the time to give me your feedback chaps, much appreciated as ever..

I'm not sure that "I" can fix the new chorus with volume or anything else. It seems to me that as Reg pointed out "Just re-track the entire vocal to suit the new arrangement"

Oggy, sorry about the short clips, I just assumed people may not want or have the time to listen to whole arrangement each time i update, so I have just uploaded clips of the parts im working on.

Mike, just to clarify, when you say, it may be just as effective to double track the chorus, do you mean the original chorus or the new ?

--------------------

www.myspace.com/joekmurphy


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Dynamic Mike



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Posts: 1841
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018841 - 16/11/12 10:42 AM
Sorry I realise now it wasn't clear. At the end of the original verse you already double track the words 'today, today', I just thought continuing that into the new chorus would lessen the effect of the tonal change, & blend the two sections better without affecting the impact of the chorus.

--------------------
Disclaimer: The views or opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the poster by the time you read this.


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Scouser



Joined: 04/10/04
Posts: 557
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018952 - 16/11/12 09:19 PM
Well, after a couple of days of trying lots of the ideas discussed, im beaten. It didn't seem to matter what I tried, it refused to fit in. Well I guess it's not a total waste of time as you sometimes have to try, before you know..

Think i will revert back to original chorus.

--------------------

www.myspace.com/joekmurphy


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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1577
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018954 - 16/11/12 09:44 PM
Still makes sense to retrack the whole vocal with the changes if you have time.

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Composer;
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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 5585
Loc: Buntingford, Herts
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1018956 - 16/11/12 10:33 PM
Quote Scouser:

Well, after a couple of days of trying lots of the ideas discussed, im beaten. It didn't seem to matter what I tried, it refused to fit in. Well I guess it's not a total waste of time as you sometimes have to try, before you know..

Think i will revert back to original chorus.




Joe

If you are struggling to mix a re-tracked vocal remember that you are still likely to have to split the verse and the chorus out onto different tracks and apply different mix solutions the cope with the different dynamics and different vocal spectrum of your voice when it is singing hard.

Reg

--------------------
Google less; read more!


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The Elf
active member


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Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: RegressiveRock]
      #1018959 - 16/11/12 11:05 PM
Reg makes a good point.

Even in quite a short/simple song it's not unusual for me to have 8 or more tracks covering the lead vocal, with levels, EQ and processing dedicated to specific sections of the song. Doing it this way avoids some of the necessity for automation, which can be a cumbersome way of achieving the same end. You can then group all of the vocal tracks to give you simplified overall control for fine-tuning.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.


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Madman_Greg



Joined: 07/12/06
Posts: 728
Loc: The back of beyond
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: RegressiveRock]
      #1018966 - 16/11/12 11:48 PM
Quote RegressiveRock:

Quote Scouser:

Well, after a couple of days of trying lots of the ideas discussed, im beaten. It didn't seem to matter what I tried, it refused to fit in. Well I guess it's not a total waste of time as you sometimes have to try, before you know..

Think i will revert back to original chorus.




Joe

If you are struggling to mix a re-tracked vocal remember that you are still likely to have to split the verse and the chorus out onto different tracks and apply different mix solutions the cope with the different dynamics and different vocal spectrum of your voice when it is singing hard.

Reg




I would go as far as saying in some situations they should be tracked separately, for example doing the breathy / proximity thing for the verse, versus a more emotional chorus section

--------------------
Madman_Greg


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Scouser



Joined: 04/10/04
Posts: 557
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1019008 - 17/11/12 11:57 AM
Quote:

Joe

If you are struggling to mix a re-tracked vocal remember that you are still likely to have to split the verse and the chorus out onto different tracks and apply different mix solutions the cope with the different dynamics and different vocal spectrum of your voice when it is singing hard.

Reg




Quote:

Even in quite a short/simple song it's not unusual for me to have 8 or more tracks covering the lead vocal, with levels, EQ and processing dedicated to specific sections of the song. Doing it this way avoids some of the necessity for automation, which can be a cumbersome way of achieving the same end. You can then group all of the vocal tracks to give you simplified overall control for fine-tuning

Elf




Good point, I actually have 7 tracks of vocals for this song.

The problem i'm having with the new chorus is that is sounds so different, I haven't even tried to make it fit. My feeling is that it is not something that a compresssor or eq etc etc can fix, and therefore my efforts would be in vain. Many of you guys on here have a lot more talent than myself for this kind of thing, so I'm not saying it can't be done.

Reg & Oggy have both suggested a re take of the whole vocal, and I can understand why. This could make for a more consistent vocal. The main reason for not doing so, is that I am really quite happy with what I have captured in the verses and seriously doubt that I can reproduce it. I dont want to fix elements that are not broken if I can help it.

Also i'm not sure I have the know how, to make this idea work, ie soft to loud dynamics..
I'm guessing that for the intimate parts, I have got the kind of sound I wanted by being close to the mic with next to no compression, the new chorus would require very different processing, my thinking is that maintaining mic distance and applying compression to compensate would be the way to go.

It seems to me that soft to loud vocals are common place in music production and the transition between the two are very transparent.

My feeling is that if all my tracking had been done at the same time, it may have had a more consistent sound to it, however im not sure I would have known how to apply the correct processing..

So in essence I have come to a kind of stand still, with the track...

--------------------

www.myspace.com/joekmurphy


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Scouser



Joined: 04/10/04
Posts: 557
Re: Does my arrangement maintain interest ? new [Re: Scouser]
      #1019953 - 23/11/12 03:04 PM
Hi again,

I've had a bit of a break from this latley and come back with fresh ears, decided to just keep it simple, reverted back to original chorus..

Made a few minor changes here and there and mixed a pre master version here:

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?_refresher=0. 83143985&_refresher=0.33349746&trackId=229411&projectId=35307#

If anyone feels I have made a backwards step from previous mixes, or just have some general comments please let me know..

Would be very interested to know how much of an effect mastering has on a track, as my experience is very limited. I have had one of my tracks mastered and wasn't that impressed, just seemed to my ears that it was boosted in certain freq, rather than providing any glue and possibly balance, if that makes sense..

All i have are a few plugins for mastering, can reasonable results be had this was or is it very much a job for the pro's ?

--------------------

www.myspace.com/joekmurphy


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