Hi all,

First of all, hello! First post on here :P

I am a drummer in a metal band and we are trying to record a 4 track EP to get ourselves out there. We need to record drums, bass, rhythm guitar, lead guitar and vocals.

The equipment I have is:

- Pro tools 8 LE
- Guitar Rig 5
- Digidesign Mbox
- Peavey PV14 Mixer
- Couple of SM58's
- Samson 8Kit Drum Mics (includes 2x C01 large diaphragm mics)
- Marshall JCM2000 TSL100 Head
- Bugera 6262 120W Head
- 2x 200W Amp Cabs

We have a practice room that isnt really sound proofed. all we have are a couple of wooden boards with acoustic foam on them (they're about 2m x 1m in size. I'm hoping to get some curtains to hang somewhere to help with acoustics.

What would be the best way to record with the things I have?? I have a bit of experience with recordings, as in, i have been teaching myself how to use pro tools and we have recorded guitars by going directly into the interface, but nothing really properly done.

Any other information you need, then ask me!

Thanks very much,
Storm08

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Btw, If there's another post that explains something like this then I apologise! please point me to it if there is!

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

What kind of Mbox is it? Mbox 2, Mbox Pro, etc? That's looking like the limiting factor from a recording point of view, ideally you'd have 8 or more separate mic inputs for recording channels separately.

Cheers!

Chris

Hi Chris,

Cheers for the reply.

I'm pretty sure it's just an mbox, old one but still works fine, it's this one: http://cachepe.samedaymusic.com/media/quality,85/brand,samed...

I could still record multiple inputs by using the mixers stereo outputs and putting that into the mbox though couldn't I?

Edited by Storm08 (08/01/13 03:25 PM)

Quote Storm08:

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I could still record multiple inputs by using the mixers stereo outputs and putting that into the mbox though couldn't I?

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Recording drums in stereo won't get you far. To make a half-decent mix you need to get the mics on separate tracks via a multi-channel audio interface.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb03/articles/drummiking.asp

A common mistake beginners make is believing that a mixer is helpful, or even a necessity. Get the mixer out of the chain and use an audio interface with as many appropriate inputs as you need (hopefully your existing one meets this requirement already). Your life will be much easier as a result.

For drums this means a bare minimum of 4 mic inputs and preferably more.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

In that case, shall I sell the mixer and then get an interface with 8-12 inputs??

Or shall i keep the mixer??

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Yes, that would be my advice - sell the mixer. Others may differ, of course...

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

They're useful for live work, obviously. For recording my preference these days would be an integrated mixer/interface like the Presonus Studiolive range, but the good ones ain't cheap. Trying to use budget mixers in a home recording setup isn't worth the hassle.

Cheers guys! Ill have a look at selling it then

Could you point me in the right direction for a decent interface then?? I need to hook up 11/12 mis but havent got that much money atm. will have to try and sell the mixer and save up.

anyway, so say i had a new interface ready and waiting. what would be the best way to go about recording an EP? I just need and idea of where to start, eg:

- How to set up a room for recording
- what order to record each instrument in
- and any useful/basic tips you might have

Sorry im asking a lot!

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

TBH, judged by the level of questions you are asking, I would say that you and your band would be better served going into a studio with a decent producer/engineer.

If this were 'for fun', or because you aspire to becoming a recording engineer, then my answer might be different, but if you and your band want to 'get out there' with any credibility I think your time would be better spent honing your act, and your money would be better spent on getting the best recording you can achieve at this time - not acquiring (budget) recording gear and learning how to use it.

Don't be fooled into thinking that having the gear will automatically give you the results - it simply won't, I'm afraid.

I realise this may not be the answer you want, but you can lose thousands of pounds and years of your life once you get into recording.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Storm08: The Elf is a very well-respected member of this forum and his advice is spot-on. As he says, probably not what you'd want to hear, but he knows his stuff - big-time. In fact, if you're not a ridiculous distance from Sheffield it would be worth your while sending him a PM to see if he'd be interested in working with you on this.

I would like to learn how to produce music as well tbh. I know this isnt the best way to do it but it would be valuable experience in the long run.

I'm under no illusion that the right gear will make it sound instantly awesome. producing music takes time and experience, along with experimenting. I'm quite level-headed, just interested in recording and producing.

We may end up going to a studio if this doesn't produce results in time.

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Quote The Elf:

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I realise this may not be the answer you want, but you can lose thousands of pounds and years of your life once you get into recording.

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I think you should set that as your sig

To add something constructive to the thread (who? me? never!) if you really want to hook up 12 mic's then your probably looking at something like a pair of MOTU 8pre's for around £400 each to do the job. Depending up on how long you have to get this together and produce something of note to a standard your happy with however, I'd probably say follow the Elf and go in with someone first and take notes on how they work. A few sessions with someone who understands what they are doing and can answer questions that should be able to point you in the direction of working that suits you best and dare I say may acturly save you money in the long run.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

If you really want to play around with recording then maybe something like the Zoom R16 might be useful. It is an 8 input, 16 track stand alone recorder or an audio interface to your computer - depending on how you want to work. One idea would be to use it stand-alone in the practice room to record or in interfaces mode with a computer to overdub and mix.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote The Elf:

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you can lose thousands of pounds and years of your life once you get into recording.

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years I'll never get back...

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I'm All Ears.

Seeing as how unsure you are (which is completely fair enough) I would start by going into a small local studio. Small local studios are remarkably cheap these days. This will also give you an idea of how recording works.

If you want to get into recording yourself, then you're looking at a long haul, and a lot of money. So that aim is a very different one than the desire to get a decent recording down soon and getting out there. Both are the laudable aims, unfortunately they can't both be killed with the one stone.

You're going to have to spend a lot of money anyway learning how to record and getting suitable gear, so thinking of it that way, a few hundred spent on going into a studio at this stage is no different than spending a few hundred buying some piece of gear. In fact, it may save you money in the long run as it will help you get a better idea of what you need to buy, otherwise it's very easy to waste money on buying the wrong gear.

I'd agree with pretty much everything said above! Where are you? I'm sure there are probably a few people on here with studios that are local (ish) to you!

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www.sda-audio.co.uk

Quote Storm08:

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I would like to learn how to produce music as well tbh. I know this isnt the best way to do it but it would be valuable experience in the long run.

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I know it would seem that way, but you honestly, really don't know what you're getting into! If you want to get good experience of recording then go watch (and learn from) someone who knows how to do it - don't muddle through and hope that Youtube and Internet fora (take a look at how many postings around here are about 'Why don't my recordings sound any good?') will get you through. It takes many years to record and mix (let alone 'produce') bands competently - by then you could be on your third album and headlining festivals!

If you are a band then be a band, and be the best you can be - don't join the ranks of mediocrity that are self-recorded bands arriving every day.

Quote Storm08:

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We may end up going to a studio if this doesn't produce results in time.

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And by that time you could have lost the band's enthusiasm and impetus.

If I were given my own advice when I started I would have ignored it too, so I don't blame you for wanting to give it a go - I understand perfectly. But you have the chance to take the better decision - it's up to you!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Getting a credible drum sound for metal is difficult even with the right equipment. You're presumably planning to track things individually, and you're not set up for recording drums, so I reckon you should do those at a local studio for a start.

You might then have a go at recording the guitars and vocals yourself if you're set on the idea, and go back to the studio for another take if you're not happy with the results.

Quote Scramble:

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If you want to get into recording yourself, then you're looking at a long haul, and a lot of money. So that aim is a very different one than the desire to get a decent recording down soon and getting out there. Both are the laudable aims, unfortunately they can't both be killed with the one stone.

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Scramble has a point though, so you need to consider what's best for the band as a whole.

Hey guys, back again!

Thank you very much for all the replies. I have had a bit of a think and come up with a solution that saves money, time and partial insanity!

The time leading up to the studio (March sometime), I'll have a go/mess around with recording things with what we have. this should get us practised enough for the studio, particularly if I'm recording to a metronome.

This way we can just have band practice as normal, but i can (if wanted) record whatever we want in the process.

I spent a good amount of time (6pm - 12am) setting up the band room by putting the pc, interface and the rest in there, plus getting some carpet tiles and laying them under the drum kit. Got a couple of rugs and just gotta get some curtains now.

Im based in Aylesbury, we have a local studio called 'Runway Studios', brilliant place, get some decent sounds coming out of there.

Ill have to have a look at Zoom's stuff cause it seems like an easier solution than most for things like this.

We have recorded guitars now for a good 6 months, and they've started to sound okay. Drums dont sound too bad either, considering i dont have much experience that is.

I know, every track is different, and there are never going to be 'presets' as it were. But is there a good way to get a tight sounding kick? eg. like in "Scream" - Avenged Sevenfold

Im, not gonna start asking how i can make it sound like that song btw :P

Also, are there any useful, free plugins for pro tools?

I really appreciate all of the feedback and help from everyone! Thank you very much!

P.S- well that was a long message

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Edited by Storm08 (10/01/13 10:56 AM)

The R16 is a great idea. I use one to record my band rehearsals. We play Black Sabbath songs, so a little distant from metal as we know it today but not on a completely different planet.

Keeping it hardware only while recording is far better then using a PC to do the job, at least in a rehearsal room environment.

My method is five mics on drums: cardioids on kick, snare, and middle tom, and omnis on kit left and kit right, above the left and right toms but also picking up the cymbals and hi-hat. DI the bass. Cardioid on guitar cab. Direct feed from PA line out for vocal.

I record to the R16 and use a PC to mix in Reaper.

If I were you I would experiment with triggering some drum samples off the kick and snare mics, for a more modern sound. You can do with quite easily with Reaper (use ReaGate to send a MIDI note on when opening).

If you can devote all eight inputs to the drum kit (and then overdub guitars and vocals), you could try triggering from the toms too.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Storm08:

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But is there a good way to get a tight sounding kick? eg. like in "Scream" - Avenged Sevenfold

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Not if you're recording the whole kit in stereo there isn't.

Quote ken long:

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Quote The Elf:

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you can lose thousands of pounds and years of your life once you get into recording.

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years I'll never get back...

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I don't want them back, it is the time I spend earning money in an office job I would like back.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

I'll have a go at getting the best sound I can out of the kick then.

I tested out recording drums just now at lunch. sounds better than I though it would tbh (not blowing my own trumpet! :P). I know mixing will be a pain seeing as I only have it going to L/R mono tracks, but I can still try!

I just need to work on positioning the mics, tune my drums up a bit, pan each drum as best i can, and then see what i can get.

I know this seems like more work than it's worth, but i need to save money for the studio.

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Not sure whether you're familiar with the idea of drum layering and replacement...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar11/articles/cutting-edge-drums.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov12/articles/drum-layering-masterclass.h tm

...but it features heavily in commercial tracks these days. One of the other benefits of recording drums on separate channels, quite apart from the ability to shape and blend the individual sounds, is the ability to trigger samples, which is impossible with a full mix. Just mentioning this in case you might be able to rig up a separate recording for the kick somehow for experimental purposes.

What you learn now may or may not be useful in the studio, if the engineer knows his/her stuff and room then they may have definite ideas about the process based on good and bad experience.

If I were in your position I would be asking "what can I do to make our recording experience successful?" rather than possibly getting sidetracked doing involved recordings that might not be useful. Simple stereo recordings of the whole band and a few beers and pen and paper with your engineer might be a good idea.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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What you learn now may or may not be useful in the studio, if the engineer knows his/her stuff and room then they may have definite ideas about the process based on good and bad experience.

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But a good engineer will be open to suggestions - if you find a sound you like then make a note of how you got it and tell the engineer. I've had people bring their own mics to sessions and sometimes this has prompted me to go and buy some of the same mics myself once I've tried them.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote James Perrett:

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But a good engineer will be open to suggestions

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Absolutely! That's what the pen and paper is for.

Quote:

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if you find a sound you like then make a note of how you got it and tell the engineer. I've had peoplebring their own mics to sessions and sometimes this has prompted me to go and buy some of the same mics myself once I've tried them.

James.

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No disagreement. I think the OP is not an experienced home recordist, though. A rifle through his/her CD collection for templates might be more profitable.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Hello again,

We have tested out the equipment/setup we have atm. although it's not ideal because we cant edit individual inputs, it still can be used for demos/giving an engineer/producer an idea of what we sound like.

I have spoken to the other members of the band and they said getting an interface would be better in the long run because we can record every week if we wanted to, and it's from the comfort of my house. so eventually we'll get an interface but over the next 2 months we'll focus on getting ready for the studio and getting the best out of what we've got.

The engineer at the studio is very good, she's open to suggestions and trying things out.

Yea, we're going to make note of mics and settings that we like the sound of. question is whether they work well together or not. I'm having a listen to different artists to see what i like about each one's sound. (I'm male for future reference :P )

What's a decent interface with the ability to connect 12 mics? I was looking at using ADAT?

Edited by Storm08 (14/01/13 11:43 AM)

Quote Storm08:

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I'm having a listen to different artists to see what i like about each one's sound.

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V wise.

I find musos and techs sometimes appreciate the same things but express it in different ways so this common reference point is useful. Apart from that, you can define what you're looking for and they know how to achieve it.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Yes indeed, I find that too. That's where it helps to have a bit more knowledge on the tech-side of things to help this along a bit. What usually happens is the rest of the band say what they want in musician terms and then I'm kinda like the bridge between them and the engineer.

I know im inexperienced in comparison to a lot of people on this forum, so i apologise if i come across as a noob

I was looking at getting something like this (for the long run), and using ADAT:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun04/articles/behringerada.htm

http://www.soundonsound.com/news?NewsID=14810

Would this be wise/work or am I looking this wrong?

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Quote Storm08:

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I was looking at getting something like this (for the long run), and using ADAT

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Bear in mind that multi-channel ADAT interfaces that work with recent OSes (eg the Profire Lightbridge or a new RME card) are pretty expensive, so you might find it cheaper to connect via PCI/USB/Firewire.

You could check the list included in last October's SOS Spotlight for ideas.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct12/articles/spotlight-1012.htm

mmm, this is true. I suppose what i really need to know is how to connect 8 drum mics, and 3 other mics up to an interface to all be recorded at the same time, using an interface that isn't too expensive.

I would be very happy to get that answered because then it will give me a direction to head in.

Thanks again for the replies

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Partly depends on choice of OS...eg if you're still running Windows XP 32bit there are some eBay bargains on things like the Yamaha 01X because people can't get them to work with their Windows 7 PCs.

Running windows 7 64bit, so that'll probably set me a different (higher) price range.

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

I may be wrong, but I don't think you'll get much change out of £400 for anything new...

Okay, that's not too bad. 400-500 quid was what I was thinking. If there's something just higher of that price range then I might be able to stretch to it.

EDIT: Difference between a digital mixer and an interface?? Simple question I know, but i'll get a straight answer on here.

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Edited by Storm08 (14/01/13 02:39 PM)

Well, there are multi-channel audio interfaces like the M-Audio Profire 2626 which are basically just a black box between your sources and the computer; then there are mixing desks; then there are combi devices which you could use for either. There's no great advantage aside from this flexibility.

So pretty much, an interface would be better for what we need it for?

I did see this:
http://www.alesis.com/multimix16usb20

as it has a USB output would that give it the ability to multi-track record? or just record L + R?

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Can't swear to it, but I think it's the USB version of this...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb06/articles/alesismultimix16.htm

...and would provide multi-track recording. But, no, you don't need the mixing desk aspect just for recording purposes.

looks like it. Firewire or USB 2.0?

given what is said about it:

"Given its low UK price, the Multimix Firewire 16 offers extraordinary value for money, and is ideally suited to the musician on a budget who wants to record an entire band at once, while keeping all the tracks separate for later mixing. Although the mixer's facilities are pretty basic, it turns in a very acceptable audio performance, and the mic preamps behave well enough to make good, clean recordings, provided that you use either sensitive capacitor microphones or use dynamic mics fairly close to the sound source."

it seems like it could be very useful for us. and wouldn't cost that much if I sell the current mixer.

Thinking about getting this now. Good idea?

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

I should wait and collect a few opinions. Stereo output is a bit limiting...this could make it difficult to work with things like headphone mixes when tracking, or hardware outboard when mixing. (By comparison, something like the 2626 gives you eight individual outputs as well as eight inputs.)

okay, so the 2626 gives you I/O's. but i need/would like to record
everything at once?? i have 8 drum mics and 3 mics that are used for guitars and bass.

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

I had a multimix 16 and while it actually wasn't a bad product, the big limitation was the inability to set up a headphone mix (or indeed set of headphone mixes) the monitor section is frankly a bit weak.

That said I recorded my last album with it and that included tracking the drummer.

But I would recommend getting a multichannel USB or firewire interface. And indeed that is what I have just upgraded to (Focusrite)

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New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary

Looks like the Multimix can record 18 channels but only play back 2 which is fine if you don't need lots of headphone mixes. It also has only 8 mic inputs so you would need to add a few more mic preamp channels.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote MarkOne:

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But I would recommend getting a multichannel USB or firewire interface. And indeed that is what I have just upgraded to (Focusrite)

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hmmmmmmm... youve got me thinking..

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www.soundcloud.com/skerrick


Edited by Skerrick (14/01/13 10:49 PM)

Well headphone mixes should be too much of a problem. So for that it should be okay. The only thing that would be limiting is the lack of powered mic inputs. would probably need 10-12 of them. Anyone got a solution?

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

*shouldn't be a problem.



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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Sorry about multiple posts, let me re-phrase that last question. If i got something like this:

http://www.maudio.co.uk/products/en_gb/ProFire2626.html

how would I be able to record drums(8 mics), two guitars(2 mics) and possibly a bass(1 mic)?

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

The 2626 only has eight analogue inputs. The Multimix has 18, but only eight of them are for mics - the others are line-in. So like James says, you'd need to use some extra mic pres to connect up your other microphones. You could use anything from a Behringer Ultragain to a Neve 4081.

Okay, so Multimix + 2-4 mic pres and then I should be on my way to multi-track recording?

something like this be okay?:

http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/sm-pro-q-pre-4-channel-mic-pre--91538

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

The SM Pro Audio stuff is usually pretty good value for money so it would be worth a look.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Awesome, ill have a look at getting both the interface and the pre amp.

This is a simple question but, once i get those two, how would i connect everything up to the PC for recording? Because you have 8 inputs on the interface that are taken up by the drum kit, to where do the other mic pres get plugged in??

The answer is gonna be obvious, but i just want to make sure ive got it all clear in my mind.

And one last thing, usb or firewire?

Edited by Storm08 (16/01/13 04:50 PM)

Apart from the eight mic inputs, the mixer has another eight line-level jack inputs, arranged as four stereo pairs. The mic pre has four outputs you could plug into the left channels.

Re: Firewire or USB, I was just glancing at this thread which seems to recommend the USB version...

http://homerecording.com/bbs/user-forums-brand/alesis-forum/alesis-multimi x-8-usb-firewire-299073/

Ah, sorry i got confused :P Yea that makes sense.

Okay, well it's the same price either way, i may well stick with usb, has been fine with the old m-box.

EDIT: Ah, thats what i shall do then thanks for looking that up

Thank you very much for all the help and replies, it has been invaluable.

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Edited by Storm08 (16/01/13 05:07 PM)

Just an update. Got an alesis multimix 16 USB for £120

Now i just need to get a mic pre-amp and a few more cables and ill be set to try and get the best sound possible.

selling my old mixer on ebay so it should be gone by next week.

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

I have just received the mixer, havent tried it yet though. would i still be able to use the m-box whilst using the multimix?

Thanks,
Storm08

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

Hello again, quick and important question!

I was going to get an alesis multimix but would a Tascam US1800 be better/just as good? I dont really need the functionality of a mixer as such so i was thinking the tascam would be a better bet?

Cheers in advance.

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore

How about keeping the interface you have and getting a cheapish electronic drum kit and bfd2. Costs under $1000 all up I rekon. I use bfd2 and it soounds better than what I managed wth 6 years of multitracking real drums

Hello,

Despite pondering on it, I got a TASCAM US-1800. I have to say, I'm pretty surprised with the quality of the thing. does what I need it to do, latency is very low and is produces clean recordings.

Also got a pair of Yamaha HS50M's, made a massive difference!

Now to start recording/mixing my own songs.

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I'm a drummer, I hit things for a living... no wonder my monitors don't work anymore