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Steve Albini



Joined: 18/08/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Chicago IL USA
Vinyl is better than anything else.
      #169257 - 18/08/05 11:51 AM
Hello fellas.

In my recent interview with Sound On Sound magazine I ( actually No, you're an impostor ! ) said that for critical listening, or for music that means a lot to me, digital formats aren't good enough. A well-made vinyl record still sounds infinitely better than anything else.

Now, I would like to hear your opinion.
What do you fellas think about that?

C’mon, don’t be shy. Everyone's opinion counts.


MODERATOR NOTE CONCERNING ORIGIN

THIS WAS POSTED BY
Digital Emotions. former member, now banned.

Pretending to be Steve Albini.

Which I might add is a dumb ass thing to do... and should not be seen as clever, funny, or something to be repeated....

unless of course you hate it here so much you're absolutely desperate to be banned.

in which case... what are you here for in the first place?


okay so the notice is a bit belated... but better late than never

Edited by Max The Mac (19/08/05 09:32 PM)


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
Posts: 2682
Loc: The King's Height
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169263 - 18/08/05 11:57 AM
You're talking b*llocks.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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djangodeadman
member


Joined: 18/02/03
Posts: 321
Loc: Brighton
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169266 - 18/08/05 12:00 PM
Vinyl does sound better, no doubt about it. However, most people's listening isn't critical and cd's are damned convenient and don't damage so easily!

It's odd that, as technology makes better and better quality sound recording available (at least in theory), what most people want is something which actually sounds worse than cd (ie MP3), because it's convenient.

You also said in your interview that (and I paraphrase here), if I ask you to record my band's next album, but can't really afford it, you'll do it for nothing. Can I have your phone number?


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Steve Albini



Joined: 18/08/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Chicago IL USA
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: djangodeadman]
      #169268 - 18/08/05 12:05 PM
(773) 539-2555
www.electrical.com

I can waive my fee.
But you still have to pay for studio time.
Business is business, you know.

Edited by Steve Albini (18/08/05 12:11 PM)


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Mash



Joined: 31/08/04
Posts: 802
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169269 - 18/08/05 12:06 PM
Hi Steve!

I was discussing this with a friend (also a keen engineer) and we both aggreed that vinyl was far superior to any other commercial music format, probably because of the lack of the 20Hz-20kHz aliasing, the format possibly only let down slightly by crackle/pops etc. One of my major gripes with technological progressions in media formats is the promotion of inferior sound quality (hello mp3/aac ipod generation). I know the majority of the consumer market may not notice the difference between 44.1 and 96 kHz recording, but who cares, in the days of 60GB hard drives in your pocket and HD space in general in abundance shouldn't accurate reproduction be priororitised over efficiency?

Mash

--------------------
www.matthewcracknell.com


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giles
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Joined: 26/10/03
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169271 - 18/08/05 12:07 PM
I'm currently looking at relative costs for vinyl & cd as I am seriously considering a switch to vinyl. If cost wasn't an issue I would do it now. Any good links for pressing would be appreciated.
Giles www.bateaulavoir.org


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Steve Albini



Joined: 18/08/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Chicago IL USA
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: giles]
      #169277 - 18/08/05 12:16 PM
I am not connected with pressing plants.
I do final mix to 2 track analog tape and I stop there.


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169284 - 18/08/05 12:28 PM
This topic will run and run . . . (I hope!)

In a nutshell, I agree (I think!) but we should broaden the discussion out to analogue v. digital technology in general.

Having just finished reading 'The Record Men' by Cohen - the story of Chess Records and Leonard Chess in particular and having re-listened to the first ever R&R record, Maybellene, I grasp just what we have lost over the last few years.

We have all the usual digital clap-trap here at the studio, but all my efforts go into vintage kit (Vintage Kitt, Gadd how I loved that woman!)

You can have all the Mickey Mouse plugins and dufuss boxes on this planet, but we are all keyed to the sound of tape and the sound of a record. You can have all the Korg/Yamaha/bla, bla, bla keyboards, but only a piano sounds like a piano and only a Hammond sounds like a Hammond and only a Fender Rhodes sounds like a . . . well, you get the picture!

(If I ever have a problem with mastering a recording, nine times out of ten, it is because the original recording contained samples.)

We have three things in the studio that 'pull' and they are a good concert grand, a good reel-to-reel and a good Hammond. Nobody asks me what plugins we have or even if we have PT or Nuendo, Soundscape or Radar. They look for a good desk and good mics, but that is about it.

As for vinyl, hmmm, getting a recording right to sound good on vinyl was tricky and definately a skill that took time to learn. Definately vinyl sounds far better on the radio.

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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gofodwr



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 330
Loc: Dinas Caerdydd
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169287 - 18/08/05 12:30 PM
Quote:

A well-made vinyl record still sounds infinitely better than anything else.




I think "well-made" is key. Old records I've bought from the 60s/70s feel and even look different to the rubbish that was being produced in the 80s/90s, most of which have developed serious pops and scratches after a few plays.

Slightly different comparison I know, but Weld sounds a hundred times better on vinyl than my iTunes copy.


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
Posts: 2682
Loc: The King's Height
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Mash]
      #169292 - 18/08/05 12:34 PM
Joe Public will always get inferior sound & visual quality for mass production runs.
It's all driven my money.
I would agree that vinyl is spoiled by crackles and pops and no matter how careful I was, my records still made noises apart from the music.
I do believe that overall, CD is far better for commercial releases.
The sound difference in my opinion is marginal - in an A/B test, yes there is a difference, but let's not get too carried away. The CD doesn't get spoiled until you abuse it. LPs get wasted very easily.
A good recording released on CD is excellent. Remember that music is an art form and it's not just about which format sounds good. You'll never know that until you record the same piece twice at the same time, one to analogue and one to digital and double up the processes all the way through.
It would be an interesting experiment, but what would it achieve really?

When you weigh up all aspects, my vote is still for CD for mass production.

I often wonder if it's the same in the visual world. There's nothing to beat seeing a film on the big screen, yet many have surround sound etc... and their 32" wide TV. Are these people not kidding themselves on?
With projectors it's much better but it is inferior to the real thing.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169294 - 18/08/05 12:35 PM
And another thing . . .

I REALLY miss having 12" by 12" front and back and a sleave to let my creative graphic side run riot.

I have just finished a CD cover and that is such a fiddley, stupid little format. It is very difficult to make a statement on a 15cm square.

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


Joined: 07/03/00
Posts: 12354
Loc: Oxfordshire UK
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169300 - 18/08/05 12:42 PM
Absolutely not.

Vinyl has far too many distortions - loads in the pressing process.

Just comparing the lacquer master with the pressed version tells you this.

Yes, you may like the distortions, but they are still a distortion of the original.

I go for digital every time - but it must be well recorded, with the right mics in the right position in the correct acoustic, etc.

And - of course - a superb performance.

That's the best

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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narcoman
active member


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Posts: 8501
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169301 - 18/08/05 12:43 PM
Hi Steve,

Nice to see you here....

I think in some ways you're right, and in others you could not be more wrong. It is very much music dependant. For example - i spend most of my time recording and mixing classical based music for movie/tv/other use. Classical music - particularly brass, does not reproduce well on Vinyl. Its very UNdynamic. The best media for us classic types is really high sample high bit digital. DSD one day, i'm sure, but for now 96/24 digi using no tape apart from for effect. We just dont dig that tape sound !!! However, for good old R+R (of which you've done some of my favourite records) I couldnt agree more. Vinyl IS the sound of rock n roll.....

there ya go - my love and hate all in one !!

nice

Cheers

--------------------
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....


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Bagpuss



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 32
Loc: London
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169302 - 18/08/05 12:44 PM
Steve

Up until about 5 years ago, I was a real digital boy, but since then I've been bitten by the analogue bug big style. Nothing sounds as sweet as an analogue eq, or as smooth as analogue compressor. I couldn't get by without my SADiE for editing but for actually manipulating sound, it's analogue all the way.

With regards to vinyl sounding better, I'm not sure, but it certainly sounds more pleasing to the ear, if that makes any sense. We've got a lathe here and stuff coming back from the cut just has more presence than that coming off the hard-disc.

Byre: I'm with you here. Digital processors and plug-ins seem to be a given - no-one asks what we have. What sets you apart these days does seem to be your analogue outboard.

Just my opinion...

--------------------
Can we give it a bit more "tssss" and a bit less "ooooph"?


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djangodeadman
member


Joined: 18/02/03
Posts: 321
Loc: Brighton
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169308 - 18/08/05 12:52 PM
Quote Steve Albini:

(773) 539-2555
www.electrical.com

I can waive my fee.
But you still have to pay for studio time.
Business is business, you know.



That's understood.

Might be a bit of a treck from Brighton, anyway.


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Ultimate Fish
posting's fun


Joined: 06/12/02
Posts: 1910
Loc: York, UK
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Bagpuss]
      #169310 - 18/08/05 12:53 PM
The small amounts of vinyl I own are pretty poor and compared to the same recording on CD the vinyl just doesn't have anything going for it.

My dad owns large amounts of jazz on vinyl and some of it sounds great... then again you're sometimes dealing with recordings that are 50+ years old and mixed and mastered with vinyl in mind.

--------------------
need to get rid of this stupid sig...


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Paws
Blouse Wearing Nancy


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Posts: 1274
Loc: Denmark
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The Byre]
      #169311 - 18/08/05 12:54 PM
Quote The Byre:

You can have all the Mickey Mouse plugins and dufuss boxes on this planet, but we are all keyed to the sound of tape and the sound of a record. You can have all the Korg/Yamaha/bla, bla, bla keyboards, but only a piano sounds like a piano and only a Hammond sounds like a Hammond and only a Fender Rhodes sounds like a . . . well, you get the picture!




Aaah, might be so, might be so.. But nothing sounds quite like my copy of the Amen Brother loop with the MP3-compression artifacts sped up by Ableton Live version 3 either... Add SupaTrigga AU set to 16ths and moderate amount of repeats/slow downs/reverse and about 3% chance of silence and you're there.. I could listen to that for hours and hours. It's unique.

(And anyways, Andrew, you can take your Hammonds and shove 'em up your jacksie... it is one of the most annoying sounds on this planet, closely followed by the guitar sound on that stupid "I can't get no... (crappy guitar lick)... satisfaction..." track by that second rate 60's rock band... what are they called again?)

Did any of you listen to Bassdrive.com last night, BTW? It was [ ****** ] mental. The mixing was a bit dodgy but the tunes mate, the tunes, I swear to god, nothing could touch that. Pure d'n'b bliss, mad enough to make even dead people feel alive.

--------------------
Signature (up to 200 characters). You may use UBBCode in your signature


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Rob C



Joined: 10/02/03
Posts: 8434
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169312 - 18/08/05 12:54 PM
One thing about vinyl... by the end of a side it's doing less than 10 ips (it starts a side at 21 ips).

Or my calculator's broken.

So you should always put your most sonically demanding material on the earlier tracks and finish each side with your grunge.


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
Posts: 2682
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The Byre]
      #169318 - 18/08/05 12:59 PM
The synth made to sound like a piano is quite pathetic at times, but it is very convenient for the home studio due to obvious cost savings.
The thing is for commercial music, which is generally cr*p and poorly produced, you don't need a real grand piano.
For a nice classical or acoustuc recording with a real piano - now that's when the Korg or Yamaha can sound completely false.
What gets me is the folk who want nice mic's and preamps (as if purists), then start using plug-ins for 'real' sounds. What's the point?

On the other hand, a Korg which sounds similar to a Rhodes - well so what if it's not a Rhodes. Music is all about notes and arrangements. Does it matter what plays them?
Whether a 'real' instrument or sythesised one, they can all be used effectively in good arragements, regardless of their physical makeup.

I think your train of thought (and probably many of us) is based on a set of rules that maybe we do not want to change.
If someone plays a certain part 'as a piano' then we can't see past a real piano playing it (and we're probably right most of the time).
But maybe it needs some thought 'out the box'. Any musically percussive instrument could play it whether real or sythesised and if it's well played and it's a nice piece, the quality will still shine through.

Digital technology is gettign better all the time and to be honest, for a recordist to ignore it completely would be foolish in my opinion.
Maybe a pure analogue set-up did sound better - not necessarily a better reporoduction, but better to the ears.
We can still capture performances to a really high standard and it sounds a bit different.
You take many recordings from every decade in the 20th century and they all sound different due to technology, equipment and fads.

Using a pure digital set-up isn't as bad as many say it is.

Byre,
Congratulations - you're luddite of the week.

Or as the boy at the Glasgow studio said when the songwriter phones to asked about what type of gear he has:-

"It's pure digital by the way".

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Bagpuss]
      #169320 - 18/08/05 01:01 PM
Vinyl can sound really good, providing its a really good press, the deck is high class, well setup, etc...

But the same can be said for CD Audio, if you've got a decent cd player, amp, DA convertor, speakers you can get a stunning sound.

The problem with any digital media is it is flawed from step one, audio isn't digital and in encoding it you lose some quality. Infomation about the waveforms is literally thrown away.

For some systems this is fine and acceptable, take for instance the Telephone system thats a digital system. I think it runs in a varible style so at 'normal' volumes you get more infomation, but if you shout more infomation is lost. This because people rarely shout on the phone so theres no need to waste bandwith on a area which isn't as important.

Anyway back to the CD's... They are fundlementally flawed! Ah but then we get into how its been recorded, has it been digital recorded?

When your digital audio systems hit around 96khz it starts to get harder to tell the differences, but they are still there...

Laurence

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169321 - 18/08/05 01:01 PM
Well I wanted to lay hands on The Tubes first album. Had the choice between s/h vinyl and CD. That album means a lot to me and I lost all my vinyl some years ago. I went for the vinyl copy in the end. Sentimental reasons and because it was produced for vinyl so i think that was the whole intended package. The band probably approved the master listening on a record deck. I wanted the original cover and stuff.

I dont have a great record deck but yes it sounds better. It sounds more REAL, and I have some identical tracks that ive been listening to from a Tubes comp for months. I find myself not having to try and listen. Vinyl just sort of fills the room. Digital is at ya.

I think my own recordings made on tape sound way better than the digital recordings I make now. I struggle to get a sound when it used to be easy. Its like trying to paint on glass. Im in the market for a tape machine. Ive given this digital thing a good crack of the whip now i reckon. Thought i liked being able to leave the piece and work on something else, but theres too much to think about. Tape and a desk always made me absorb and finish things.

I think the most stupid thing the record industry ever did was to go digital. They took an album with its cover and slip and its lush arty smell. And replaced it with something thats disposable rippable, its cheapened the form. We had the best canvas format for this lark and we dumped it, doh.


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Dave B



Joined: 03/04/03
Posts: 5588
Loc: Maidenhead
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The Byre]
      #169322 - 18/08/05 01:02 PM
Quote The Byre:

And another thing . . .

I REALLY miss having 12" by 12" front and back and a sleave to let my creative graphic side run riot.




TBH, Andy just hit the nail on the head as to why there is such a vinyl nostalgia - we loved the tactile feel of the medium rather than it's technical specs. For the average listener, a CD-based system was a huge leap up in fidelity. I mean, how many people actually had separates, and of those, how many had other 'domestic' systems like tape players around their home ? Hi Fi was, is and always will be a minority issue.

But the actual record itself - especially the 12" size was a beatiful thing. It was a chance to read the the lyrics without a magnifying glass, look at exquisite artwork, marvel at the translucent disks and the record shops had a different, homey feel to them - not just endless (soulless) plastic racks. (sighs)

On most domestic audio systems, CD rules. But when it comes to the elusive 'feel' of the product, we all adore records....


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Scottdru
Cool Dude


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #169325 - 18/08/05 01:05 PM
Quote BigAl:


On the other hand, a Korg which sounds similar to a Rhodes - well so what if it's not a Rhodes.



I've yet to hear a Korg or any other box that's not a Rhodes sound as good as a properly tuned and maintained Rhodes.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169340 - 18/08/05 01:21 PM
The Byre,
I think that goes hand in hand with todays "lifestyle" people don't seem to care for the awesome vinyl collection any more. It's enough to have a CD rack next to the miniature Denon stereo, or ditch that altogether and plug their iPod straight into the stereo. Of course it's not so much what people "want" as what they've been convinced to want over a period of time now, by the marketing forces driving the sale of CDs and now portable mp3 players. I say this because people (yes, average human beings) of the 70s and early 80s used to all love browsing vinyl record sleeves and then purchasing said record&artwork to add to their home collection. I don't think the gene pool suddenly changed and people no longer appreciated the art that went into vinyl records. It's more like the means to peruse and sample vinyl records were slowly taken away from us to pave the way for the "digital revolution". I've heard claims that it's all about choice, and the public have voted for convenience over quality, but when the shops simply no longer stock a product, you cannot claim that choice is involved. It's like Dixons just last week announcing they will no longer sell non-digital film cameras any more. This is not because they are selling none, it's because they make a bit more margin on the digital cameras, and like any huge business, it simplifies the operation when you only sell carrots, not carrots and onions.

I have heard of bands writing, mixing and producing their work entirely inside a PC or Mac then making a big deal about the final thing being on Vinyl as opposed to CD but I don't really see the point in that, you've already lost anything truly analog in the music. When people listen now to the incredible engineering that made vinyl like ELO's or Stevie Wonder's records in the seventies, they oft forget that apart from the awesome musicianship, these recordings were purely analog from beginning to end. No virtual instruments, no plugins, not even cheap 80s digital effects units. So putting current work onto vinyl to restore some magic is probably foolish if the entire opus was recorded and mixed in Pro Tools.

Which brings me back to the point earlier about supposed choice, musical equipment has never been cheaper than it is currently. You can buy a mic, guitar, 24 tracks of 24bit recording and as many virtual synths as you want for under £1000. The trouble is, many professional musicians have gone down the path of downgrading their gear to the cheap prosumer stuff, for the simple fact that it is so much cheaper and compact. But this has had an effect on the sound and quality of music out there. People complain that tape machines and tape are no longer viable because the cost of machine, maintenance and finding tape has become prohibitive. It's nonsense, it's only really prohibitive if you're comparing to the cost of a cheap PC and Cubase SX and you're trying to keep the studio budget under £1000. Great bands of the 70s and 80s weren't applying those rules, they just bought tape machines and used them, while budding musicians settled for 4 and 8 track reel to reels and portastudios. The great levelling of the playing field that has occurred since the computer revolution has not all been a great thing, the overall standard of released music has dropped signicantly, and coupled with new formats and technology that serve only the vast media corporations like Sony, what joe public is listening to is even more degraded.

Sony are in the process of rolling out Blu-Ray discs, with a 50gb capacity on one DVD-sized optical disk. Am I the only one who thinks that hard disk and flash based storage is only a sideways step? Why are there not in the pipeline, new "Sony Walkmans", that use Blu-Ray for storage? With 50gb per disk, you could store 200 albums in CD quality with lossless compression, or alternatively 50 albums with greatly improved fidelity like 24/96. As the storage capacity increases, the argument for utterly shitty formats like MP3 becomes weaker and weaker, and we begin to see that it's got more to do with
a) Restricting the end user's take-home product so as to protect the corporations intellectual property via poor quality and DRM or similar technologies and
b) Increasing the profits of the same companies by allowing them to sell a low bandwidth equivalent minus artwork, minus CD, minus vinyl etc etc. You can't get much a much cheaper way to sell music than the minimum-quality-bandwidth mp3 download model.

Bob


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Back_AndToTheLeft



Joined: 17/09/04
Posts: 176
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Scottdru]
      #169341 - 18/08/05 01:21 PM
Quote Scottdru:

Quote BigAl:


On the other hand, a Korg which sounds similar to a Rhodes - well so what if it's not a Rhodes.



I've yet to hear a Korg or any other box that's not a Rhodes sound as good as a properly tuned and maintained Rhodes.




Funnily enough, my biggest problem with all the virtual Rhodes emulators is that they don't sound like my f**ked old Rhodes, which is improperly tuned and maintained but sounds unique


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Scottdru]
      #169345 - 18/08/05 01:26 PM
I don't dispute that and I was actually saying that in my point, although maybe it wasn't clear.

What I meant was - you get a Korg which has a similar sound, but it's not an actual Rhodes.
So what?
It's still a useable sound to play your music with.
It may not sound as good as a Rhodes but you can't compare apples and pears.

What if the Korg sythesiser had its sound first, then the Rhodes came along. What would be best?

Neither, they're both still useable.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Back_AndToTheLeft



Joined: 17/09/04
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #169348 - 18/08/05 01:28 PM
Quote BigAl:

What if the Korg sythesiser had its sound first, then the Rhodes came along. What would be best?





You have obviously never owned a Fender Rhodes.


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Scottdru]
      #169351 - 18/08/05 01:34 PM
Quote Scottdru:

Quote BigAl:


On the other hand, a Korg which sounds similar to a Rhodes - well so what if it's not a Rhodes.



I've yet to hear a Korg or any other box that's not a Rhodes sound as good as a properly tuned and maintained Rhodes.




I'll second that, nothing sounds like a Rhodes!

nothing sounds like a badly maintained rhodes either!
part of play a rhodes is that action! I ain't seen a controller keyboard like it!

and they never get the tine sound right...

Those's Logic Virtual Instruments EVP88 are a bit of a joke!

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?

Edited by Pirate Giant with Laser Eyes (PGWLE) (18/08/05 01:37 PM)


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Who's never been here


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169352 - 18/08/05 01:35 PM
If they could digitise women would you prefer a real one or the holohooker with the real love plugin.


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169355 - 18/08/05 01:37 PM
Before anyone murders me for my anti-digital comments in the last post, I should make clear I'm not criticizing digital per se. What I feel is that if the end medium was quality enough, like DSD/SACD upwards, and if the recording and mixing had all been done in that domain, the resulting product would be fantastic sounding. But what's often the case now is that records are coming out recorded in 16bit 44.1 (yes many people are still recording at 16bit), and then due to lack of skill they overuse digital plugins, especially the hellish Ultramaximizer type. The final CD then rarely gets listened to "as a CD" by the end user. More often than not, it's going to be heard as a 160kbps VBR MP3 on their iPod, or even worse, people download it from peer to peer and it's been ripped in burst mode complete with wonderful CD skipping noises, encoded at 80kbps with the crappest MP3 software available, snipping seconds of the start and end off for good measure, and probably mistitled to boot.

The techological means will exist very soon for most musicians to be recording high fidelity all the way to the final product, which could be released high fidelity. While the marketing people will tell us that the public are choosing low fidelity for convenience, the truth is, it's the marketing people and their accountants who will make the decision about what product is actually for sale, and my point is that it is in their interest to "cripple" the end product somewhat. Why sell some people a Ferrari when you could sell millions a sketch of a Ferrari on a piece of paper?

This argument could go on and on, but just think for a second, compare this to the very similar question in photography...Has anyone seen a digital photograph as stunning as the most stunning from a real, chemicals-based camera? Really?

Bob


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Brian Moynihan]
      #169356 - 18/08/05 01:40 PM
I've seen some lovely digital shots!

With somthing like a photography digital has meant its avalible to them, but only 1 in a million accualy takes that breath taking photo.

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169360 - 18/08/05 01:42 PM
And I agree with the comments above about the tactile nature of the vinyl sleeve. It almost seems pointless going to all the work making beautiful artwork for a CD jewel case when..
a) it's so small
b) through the plastic they often don't look that endearing
c) when the CD inevitably ends up in a 240-CD folder, only the CD's on body image matters.
d) when the CD inevitably ends up inside an mp3 player, none of the images matter.
e) they don't *feel* half as good as the big 12 inch inky sleeve


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #169364 - 18/08/05 01:49 PM
Quote Pirate Giant with Laser Eyes (PGWLE):

I've seen some lovely digital shots!

With somthing like a photography digital has meant its avalible to them, but only 1 in a million accualy takes that breath taking photo.




Not meaning the actual artistic shot as much as how it looks. Try scanning a measly Polaroid at 2400dpi and then print it professionally up to A1 poster size. Do the same with a digital photograph and you get this ugly, RGB mess reminiscent of ZX81 sprite graphics.

People also talk about how much cheaper going digital is, yeah for sure, the camera, the PC, the Epson/Canon Photo Printer, the £25 colour ink cartridge that lasts 30 photos, the £20 black ink cartridge that lasts the same, the £1-a sheet paper that your printer likes to chew every second sheet of, the memory cards, the memory card reader, the NiMH batteries that last 15 minutes, the NiMH charger, the new lenses you had to buy for the camera because they made the fittings incompatible with previous lenses of the same brand.


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__
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169365 - 18/08/05 01:50 PM
Slightly off, but something else about daws. Theres a lot of food in the kitchen. Lots of choices available. However focused you are on getting what you want. The distractions are infinite. With more traditional recording setups, you got your sound and recorded that. Almost now like im recording 'to it' as opposed to it recording 'from me'. Nurse


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169367 - 18/08/05 01:51 PM
/rant off


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Stephen Bennett
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169368 - 18/08/05 01:53 PM
Quote Steve Albini:

Hello fellas.

In my recent interview with Sound On Sound magazine I said that for critical listening, or for music that means a lot to me, digital formats aren't good enough. A well-made vinyl record still sounds infinitely better than anything else.

Steve Albini.
Electrical Audio.




I have both a pretty good CD and Record player (and cleaner!) and I've always preferred vinyl.

I've been in the happy position to be able to listen to a CD and vinyl version of a record I recently played on - I also did some of the recording, so I know what the 'raw' product sounded like. Even though it was recorded totally on digital systems it still sounds better to me on the 180g white vinyl version.

I think it's something to do with the 'friendly' distortion but also the skill of the cutting engineer - proper 'mastering' . The vinyl version's bass is much more controlled - yet just as deep, the highs sweeter.

The thing is, a inexpensive CD player usually sounds pretty good to me. An inexpensive turntable invariably (IMHO) does not. But when you approach the 'high-end' the record player overtakes the CD in listening pleasure. All IMHO of course!

I love CD for convenience, but I would never sell my vinyl!

Stephen

--------------------
New Henry Fool album (Feat: Phil Manzenera and Jarrod Gosling of iMonster.)
New Tim Bowness album (Feat: Steven Wilson, Pat Mastelotto.)


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Chickenjohn
Not a chicken


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169369 - 18/08/05 01:54 PM
I have to agree absolutely with Steve Albini on this- a well pressed good quality vinyl sounds far far better than CD. For instance my original copy of Highway to Hell (AC/DC) sounds superb, the drums at the start have so much more depth and air than anything I've ever heard from CD and the guitar riff, has real crunch, and when the vocals come in, phew...its like Bonn Scott is still alive and in the room.

and I only have a Rega Planar 3 with the elyse cartridge through a midrange/budget UK hifi system and it sound much better than any CD system I've ever heard. Its like the life is back in the music, you can hear the air and the space around the instruments.

CD's suck and computer based/digital recording sucks- well done to Steve for also staying all analogue, fantastic stuff, best SOS interview in years!

keep up the good work (even though its not really Steve Albini there, is it???) I know that because the real Steve Albini WOULD take an interest in pressing the master from which vinyl is made- Frank Zappa is reknowned for getting up to 20 test pressings done of some albums before he was satisfied in the mastering quality, and FZ vinyl sounds great...

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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Scottdru
Cool Dude


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169370 - 18/08/05 01:58 PM
Hi Steve, and welcome to the SOS Forums! I always enjoy hearing your views, and find myself agreeing with many of them.

To be honest, I haven't had the opportunity to do any proper A/B comparison of the same recording between vinyl and digital since probably the late '80s, at which point I was able to do the comparison on a comparably high end audiophile turntable and CD player, with records that were well maintained and regularly cleaned on a VPI machine.

I would wonder how many people here even have access to that kind of gear.

Back then, I definitely felt that vinyl sounded better. But then again, CDs were quite new, the quality of digital gear we had available wasn't up to what we have available to us now, and the digital remastering was often poor. I also always found that CDs that were recorded/mastered from beginning to end (DDD) most often did not sound as good or musical as CDs that had at least one analogue step in there somewhere (AAD, ADD or DAD).

I held out to the bitter end, until I found I could no longer get new releases that I really wanted on vinyl, before I broke down and bought a CD player.

I still do have some vinyl, but off hand I think I only have one duplicate with vinyl/CD, which is Fagen's "The Nightfly" -- the CD of which, to my ears, sounds like it wasn't particularly well remastered for digital. Perhaps this was one of the ones that was remastered early on? I haven't had a chance to do an A/B of these yet on decent gear (I've got a Thorens turntable, but have never been particularly happy with the tone arm/cartridge combination on it -- relatively a bit thin and scratchy sounding for my liking). But in that case, I do feel that the sound of the vinyl version (mostly from memory, listening on high quality turntables, etc.) sounds better to me than the CD . . . but would it if it was better remastered and recorded at, say, 24/96? I'm not sure.

I do sometimes find that vinyl records don't have the dynamic range that a good digital recording does.

I while I realise that in the end it is the ears that matter, I would actually be curious to understand what technical reasons you feel cause vinyl to sound better than any digital recording. Or is it just the pleasing/musical artifacts of the analogue gear or process?

If the latter is the case, would inserting an analogue step (perhaps with the requiste skill and intent ) before the final pressing to digital add the necessary euphonic improvements to make the two forms more equivalent? Or would the final digital step somehow not manage to transmit the subtleties of the effects? And, if not, why?

Also, as I understand it, when a record is cut/pressed, the highs and lows are rolled off and then "reconstituted" using RIAA equalisation. Does this not add its own artifacts that may or may not have as much effect as any potential aliasing in high quality AD and/or DA conversion, particularly at higher sampling rates?

Hehe . . . I have more questions, but perhaps I'll save those for later.

I too must admit missing the tactile experience of the full size LP jackets . . . at least when listening at home. Records and a turntable were a bitch to try to carry around in your backpack, though.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Brian Moynihan]
      #169372 - 18/08/05 02:03 PM
Bob it rather depends on the camera, etc in question...

A scanner for instance is accually a digital device.

If you have a decent SLR Digital Camera you can get some amazing results with great quality, at 100% digital camera resolution tends to be good enough, but you drop it to 50% and you in effect double the D.P.I making the photo's look at lot better...

Printers do suck harshly! I get any photos i take printed professional, and have laser printers in the office for everything else, they are so much cheaper to run!

Anyway!

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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PWGLE



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Posts: 3439
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #169377 - 18/08/05 02:06 PM
What makes me really angry is when they remaster classics, and they sound worse!

I got one the other day, recorded a 10s piece of the record, and then the same 10s from the CD...

They had re'eq'ed it, and the compression was unbelivable!

Its worth noting that when CD's first came out they where mastered to sound very crisp at the top end, to try and make the listener apperciate the 'crisp clear sound of digital'

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Back_AndToTheLeft]
      #169385 - 18/08/05 02:15 PM
Never owned but used many times.
I love the sound of the Rhodes but if it's not available, I'll use something else which still puts the idea across in the way I want.
There's more than one way to play a song.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #169387 - 18/08/05 02:18 PM
Pirate I agree with you there. I think my point is the comparison of like for like, in that people are forking out £400 for a small digital like a Fuji that has no interchangeable lenses and something like 6Mpixels. If you look at what £400 can buy you in "analog" cameras, you could buy a Canon AE-1 for around £80 these days, spend another £120 on a pair of nice lenses, say one all rounder and one wide angle, another £100 on associated bags, tripod, filters, and then keep the last £100 to go nuts buying some bulk film stock. The end result would be unquestionably better photographs and the user would have to learn a bit about how to take a good picture, which digital cameras tend to discourage people from.

It's a different story if you get up to stuff like EOS-1D professional digital SLRs, which can take great pictures. But when you can buy something like an AE-1 for under £100, and take images good enough for even professional uses, knowing that the camera will probably still be working in the year 2105, it shows the comparison. I think it's incredibly similar to the audio question, because many people have switched to digital (i.e. non linear sequencers) purely because it is so much easier to edit and manage large multitrack projects. Hence the reason you will find many professional newspaper, wedding, magazine, architectural etc photographers now using the pro digital SLRs. They can see results instantly and edit & transmit digital files quickly. In a way, digital makes a lot more sense for them than it does for the average home user.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169390 - 18/08/05 02:21 PM
I'm completely in agreement with John Willett here. Vinyl may have its merits and advantages for DJs, but quality and accuracy aren't on the list.

There are enormous technical limitations and problems involved in cutting a vinyl record -- a pressed disk doesn't sound remotely close to the source master tape, ever! And thats before we even think about the effects of dust, dirt and physical damage.

Then there are all the replay problems associated with having a disc cut with a parallel arm and replayed with a pivoted one, and of the variable vertical tracking angles, and with the different pickup stylus geometries, weights and anti-skate forces.

And then there are the radically different sonic effects of mioving magnet or moving coil pickups, capacitive loading, RIAA curve errors....

It's all a complete technological disaster which is as far behind modern digital recording performance as it was ahead of the wax cylinder.

I agree that listening to old vinyl from the 50s and 60s often delivers excellent recording quality and stunning musical performances, but the reasons for that are entirely to do with the talent and technical approach of that era.

Recordings were made of musicians with talent and ability, produced by people who knew what they were doing, and recording by skilled and knowledgeable technicians who knew how to use the limited amount of equipment they had to the best effect.

It is the sound of real instruments played well and recorded carefully in good sounding rooms. No samples, no stack of Plug-in effects, no editing thirty different takes to make one that more or less works, no overdubbing of individual parts in isolation on different days....

Thats where the differences lie, not in the mysterious qualities of a black plastic disc.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #169391 - 18/08/05 02:22 PM
Is anyone actually getting my point?

Yes, the Rhodes is great, but it's not the only sound.

This is exactly what I was meaning in my other points. Don't always dwell on the past and what you're comfortable with.
Try things differently for a change.

I have a Korg keyboard which has a Wulrlitzer type sound. Now I've never tried one for real (heard a few) and this sound doesn't really sound like it, but it's a lovely sound and I have used it a couple of times.
I faffed around with the programming to get it sounding a bit sharper and it's a good Wurly type sound and perfectly useable, but I don't lose sleep over not having a Wurly.
It's what I play and the feeling I put into which counts for more.
I've also got a nice 'Vintage' electric piano sample in my Clavinova, and I like it. Is it a Rhodes or Wurly?
I couldn't give a toss.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169395 - 18/08/05 02:25 PM
Well said Hugh.

Why do people put good records down to the black plastic disk?

To echo your words, it's always down to talent.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #169402 - 18/08/05 02:30 PM

Wow, reasonably famous producer type in actual sos forum post shock. Not incognito like.

Cool. Hopefully you'll stick around these parts, if you have the time?

Would you solicit my demo to someone who could possibly help me further my musical endeavours? That question could be deemed rhetorical, possibly? (semi joke?)

Enjoyed "The problem with music" article you wrote.


Vinyl? Yeah, i love vinyl. But i'd need a better set up than a 1210 to fully appreciate a well pressed good condition record.

And you really can call it a record, cause records are round with a hole in the middle, always best in black.

Now i have to go and lie down for a few years.

Nice to see a known quantity on the forum.


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Brian Moynihan]
      #169405 - 18/08/05 02:34 PM
Yep i'm with you there Bob...

I've got a fully manual SLR with a couple of lens, and quite a few filters its a lovely camera, I use it a fair bit... but I just couldn't justify the film costs I got my self a Canon PowerShot A70 in the end, great little digital camera.

Best feature of it? The manual mode!

Its really convient when I'm out cycling I can just take the odd shot like...
http://www.msweb.co.uk/LG/IMG_3798_1.jpg

anyway!

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Steve Hill
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169406 - 18/08/05 02:34 PM
Good affordable stereo (I deliberately avoid the loaded term "hi fi") has been with us since the 1960s, and really the changes (in quality, not format) since then are incremental, mostly small, and possibly in the case of CD, retrograde.

The problem as I see it is the need of hardware manufacturers to keep reinventing formats to get our wallets out of our pockets. Betamax really was better than VHS.

Manufacturers also gamble (sometimes massively) on innovation. Without which we'd no doubt be messing about with wax cylinders, so sure, a lot of this is good. And a lot is not - mp3/iPod etc being a case in point (at least quality wise - I guess it's fine to take out for a jog, which you can't do with a 1960s sideboard "stereogram").

I don't know if my affection for vinyl is all tied up with romance, nostalgia, and - yes - the sleeve artwork more than the sound quality, but the affection is real.

However, may I controversially suggest that a well recorded album done in the analogue domain (step forward Mr Albini, or indeed say White Stripes) and then properly mastered and released on CD (no flaky copy protection systems please) will also be an excellent product. Isn't the real problem, as someone said above, that there's too much crap being put out?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The real musiclover]
      #169407 - 18/08/05 02:36 PM

Yeah yeah, talent, the quality of the music far outweighs the medium it's pressed onto, or burned into, etc.

Absolutely.


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Scottdru
Cool Dude


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #169409 - 18/08/05 02:37 PM
Quote BigAl:


To echo your words, it's always down to talent.



We get it, Al. As we have the last hundred of times you've tried to impose this argument as the main focus of a different argument. Nobody's disagreeing with you on the point that it's all down to the talent and you need to work with the medium you have, not the medium you don't have available to you, etc. I would, however, like to see this thread remain a little more on-topic, before it morphs into a thread about religion and someone puts an eye out.

The subject of the thread is the relative sound quality (subjective and/or objective) of vinyl versus digital recordings, and not the quality of music itself. While we all agree the music is most important (including, I'm quite sure, Mr. Albini), the topic is quite valid irrespective of the music. We could be talking about recording birds, the sounds of animals in the jungle, trains, thunderstorms, or anything else for that matter.

Thanks.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Scottdru]
      #169410 - 18/08/05 02:38 PM

Or farts?


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Steve Hill
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169414 - 18/08/05 02:41 PM
One other thing. I was much taken with Steve Albini's comment that he'll track and mix an album in 4 - 10 days. Had a band in recently who bored the pants off me and quite possible even themselves spending 7 days on one four minute song. Bass, drums, guitar, trumpet, voice. And a zillion overdubs of every part, all comped to smithereens, because of course track count was essentially limitless, "so they could".

Oh for the luxury of being able to say "you can record it again if you like, but you'll have to lose the previous take"...!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Doublehelix



Joined: 04/12/02
Posts: 4162
Loc: USA
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169416 - 18/08/05 02:44 PM
Lots of valid points here...

I just dug out my *huge* vinyl collection from the 60's, 70's and 80's, set up a nice turntable (my old Techniques had seen better days...RIP old friend), and have been doing some transfers to digital.

All I can say is that the vinyl sounds pretty dang amazing! Now, could that be due to the era of the recording when everything was tracked to tape to begin with, or is it the format of the final recording?

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Chickenjohn
Not a chicken


Joined: 08/04/04
Posts: 465
Loc: Kent, UK
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169417 - 18/08/05 02:44 PM
There is a theory posted by a well known nusic industry person (I cant remember who and don;t have the link) that says that listening to digital music can make humans feel on edge and irritated, subconsciously wheras listening to pure analoge (a vinyl record made from analogue equipment) is relaxing and pleasant.

He also goes on to suggest that this is the cause of most of the antisocial behaviour and crime in the modern world, (and possibly terrorism?).

Hard to believe, but listening to vinyl IS more relaxing and pleasant, he gave a technical reason for it, which I cant remember.

What do you think about that???

and despite what Hugh says vinyl DOES sound much better than CD, although i do have an iPOD, just to try and prove I'm not a complete technophobe.

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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Chickenjohn
Not a chicken


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #169420 - 18/08/05 02:47 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

One other thing. I was much taken with Steve Albini's comment that he'll track and mix an album in 4 - 10 days. Had a band in recently who bored the pants off me and quite possible even themselves spending 7 days on one four minute song. Bass, drums, guitar, trumpet, voice. And a zillion overdubs of every part, all comped to smithereens, because of course track count was essentially limitless, "so they could".

Oh for the luxury of being able to say "you can record it again if you like, but you'll have to lose the previous take"...!




I think if a band was any good they should take no more than 2 weeks (10 days) to make an album, somthing else I agree with Steve Albini on, even though its not really him posting.

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169422 - 18/08/05 02:48 PM
One has to take these sort of things with more than a little sodium chloride. Just check out the "roll up, roll up! snake-oil" vibe of the Diamond Center's website.....

http://www.diamondcenter.net/AR-HumanStress.html

But it's ok, you can take vitamins that make the CDs analog again.


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Scottdru]
      #169425 - 18/08/05 02:50 PM
I'm sorry for suggesting that good recordings are purely down to the equipment which is being used. Bad Al.

Anyway, why didn't you direct your post at Hugh - he made the point and I just greed with him.
He summed the whole vinyl thing up quite well. Some may prefer the sound, but it's far from perfect.

Do you want clear audio recordings or coloured and distorted ones?

Does it matter?

So lets forget the talent thing. What do we assume? that we've recorded a top song, performed by a top singer and band, recorded by a top engineer and produced by a top producer.

Has anyone (and I'd be interested) actually recorded the same piece and routed the mic's to two machines (one analogue and one digital) ? - Produced a vinyl copy of the analogue and a CD of the digital.
Then we could have a more level playing field for the discussion.

The problem is that the talent is always assumed and then people think that they need some 2 grand preamp and mic to make good recordings, whether for CD or vinyl. You don't and in these cases, they either don't know what they're doing or the performers aren't good.

How can you discuss the merits of two recording mediums without relating to some sort of audio output?
Let's not turn this into a HiFi type thread.

All our recording experiences are different and we base our opinions on our own experiences. How can I say I prefer vinyl or analogue when all I remember is scratches and pops and recordings done in analogue studios sounding worse than mine.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #169428 - 18/08/05 02:53 PM
Scott,

I prefer the sound of a blackbird on 2" transferred to vinyl via a 0.5" master.
On the other hand, the magpie just sounds better at 24-bit 96kHz digital.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Brian Moynihan]
      #169429 - 18/08/05 02:54 PM
yes, digital sucks the soul out of music....

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169430 - 18/08/05 02:56 PM
Doublehelix,
Part of the difficulty with this debate is that it's hard to compare like for like with CD and Vinyl, because....

Most of the CDs we can buy now of classic 70s records are remastered, which may mean "remastered slightly better" or "remastered to death". So the new version may be better sounding simply because of remastering, or it may be worse sounding simply due to the remastering

And the other side of the coin, brand new records that are given a simultaneous Vinyl and CD release, well it's 99% likely they were recorded mixed and mastered fully digitally, with a straight digital copy going to CD and the vinyl pressing being the only analog component in the whole chain. So these also can't really be compared because we may be hearing something in the recording that is down to the recording and mixing method and technology.

The only real comparison is an un-remastered CD version compared to the original pressing of an album, say for example Songs in the Key of Life by Stevie Wonder. If you could find an early CD release that hadn't mean remastered and compare it to a mint copy of the vinyl. Interesting that someone mentioned the Tubes above because I just bought the CD of "Outside Inside", and *yawn* while it does sound immaculately clean and "correct", my vinyl copy still has something...more.

While Hugh and John are totally right about technical accuracy of the CD format, maybe it's not about that, maybe it really is the imperfection of the Vinyl that gives something a human charm, just like with tape.

Bob


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Scottdru
Cool Dude


Joined: 17/12/02
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #169431 - 18/08/05 02:58 PM
Quote BigAl:



Has anyone (and I'd be interested) actually recorded the same piece and routed the mic's to two machines (one analogue and one digital) ? - Produced a vinyl copy of the analogue and a CD of the digital.
Then we could have a more level playing field for the discussion.




That was indeed a large part of my initial query. I imagine Mr. Albini has, and a few others here possibly have -- at least to some degree.

Quote:

How can I say I prefer vinyl or analogue when all I remember is scratches and pops and recordings done in analogue studios sounding worse than mine.




Exactly. I would bet that a good many people here haven't had the chance to compare under the proper circumstances and equipment with to make a fair subjective comparison.

[EDIT: And also . . . What Bob said above. ]

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169433 - 18/08/05 02:59 PM

You dont think it really is him then?

Probably not though.... Coo, an optimist for a few seconds there, cant have that.

Now if it was Elvis....


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Scottdru
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The real musiclover]
      #169435 - 18/08/05 03:03 PM
Quote The real musiclover:



Now if it was Elvis....



Actually, Elvis has been spotted alive and well, living in Kalamazoo, Michigan, which is only a couple of hours' drive from Chicago.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #169437 - 18/08/05 03:06 PM
The biggest problem with digital photography is the hidden costs if you wish to print. You don't have to think in big numbers in terms of photos taken before buying and developing film is just as cheap.
I think the culture of viewing may change (DVD on the TV).

I wasn't convinced by digital photography and I have a Fuji camera which I don't like at all.
I got a shot of a Nikon SLR Digital and the quality is fantastic - even blown up to A3 and printed at medium quality on a plotter!

Anyway, back to the vinyl...

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Chickenjohn
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Posts: 465
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #169438 - 18/08/05 03:08 PM
Quote BigAl:

_snip_Let's not turn this into a HiFi type thread.

All our recording experiences are different and we base our opinions on our own experiences. How can I say I prefer vinyl or analogue when all I remember is scratches and pops and recordings done in analogue studios sounding worse than mine.




it IS allready a hifi type of thread as "Steve Albini" (yeah right) asked is vinyl better than CD, is that not a HiFi type question???

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Scottdru]
      #169439 - 18/08/05 03:08 PM
Quote Scottdru:

Quote The real musiclover:



Now if it was Elvis....



Actually, Elvis has been spotted alive and well, living in Kalamazoo, Michigan, which is only a couple of hours' drive from Chicago.






--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Doublehelix



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Brian Moynihan]
      #169440 - 18/08/05 03:09 PM
Quote The Bob Campbell:

Doublehelix,
Part of the difficulty with this debate is that it's hard to compare like for like with CD and Vinyl, because....





Great post, and I agree wholeheartedly!

btw...Songs in the key of life is one of my favorite albums of all time, and I am usually a "rocker" by heart! What an incredible piece of music that album is!!!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~


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Stephen Bennett
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169442 - 18/08/05 03:12 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:


It is the sound of real instruments played well and recorded carefully in good sounding rooms. No samples, no stack of Plug-in effects, no editing thirty different takes to make one that more or less works, no overdubbing of individual parts in isolation on different days....

Thats where the differences lie, not in the mysterious qualities of a black plastic disc.

hugh




Hugh

See my post above; the album I mention uses real instruments and very good musicians (ahem! ) but also a lot of plug-ins, editing, VI's and the whole modern studio caboodle.

So it can't just be the things you mention above that make vinyl sound so good. I have a lot of new vinyl and it's almost always better than the CD version. These days it's usually well pressed too - which couldn't be said for all the vinyl in the '70s and '80s.

Stephen

--------------------
New Henry Fool album (Feat: Phil Manzenera and Jarrod Gosling of iMonster.)
New Tim Bowness album (Feat: Steven Wilson, Pat Mastelotto.)

Edited by Stephen Bennett (18/08/05 03:14 PM)


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Digital Emotions
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Brian Moynihan]
      #169444 - 18/08/05 03:14 PM
Quote The Bob Campbell:


While Hugh and John are totally right about technical accuracy of the CD format, maybe it's not about that, maybe it really is the imperfection of the Vinyl that gives something a human charm, just like with tape.





Is it possible to reproduce imperfection of vinyl on CD?
I would appreciate if Hugh R. can share his opinion on this one.

I am absolutely sure that if for example Pink Floyd albums from 70s
*Dark Side Of The Moon
*Wish You Were Here
*Animals
could be re-released on CDs that sound like vinyl
they would sell millions.

Is it possible to take high quality LP(not original tape)
and transfer it to CD without any stupid re-mastering?
Can it sound like vinyl?
Is it perfection or imperfection that make it sound this way I don't really care.

Digi Em.


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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169447 - 18/08/05 03:20 PM
"Back then in 1980, I had only digitally recorded and/or mastered vinyl LPs to test. The arrival of CDs a few years later increased the problem. As with LPs, but more so, the stress leads after a certain time (different for each individual) to a reversal of their usual ethical and medical standards of belief. The effects of this profound change that I have now investigated for some twenty years are I believe a very important etiological factor in the increase in childhood and adolescent disturbances, (witness the soaring rate of Ritalin prescribing), and in the escalating violence in our society.



Especially when we recall that the digital process is no longer confined to recorded music but is now affecting us nearly all day: TV, radio, telephones etc. It is we who have become digitalized!"

there you go! digital has ruined the world.......

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Scottdru]
      #169448 - 18/08/05 03:21 PM
The routing experiment would be very interesting, but I would argue that it would be a waste of time.
I know what you're saying about recording birds etc.... (too limited frequency range to hear all pros and cons ), but what are you going to find out?
The bird reference has a serious point behind it, because once you find that out, what clear conclusions can be made?
{well it is also funny }

You'd be as well recording tones of various frequencies, but again what does that tell you when you are about to record some performers.

A strict A/B test is the only way of a clear comparison. I've seen a good A/B in a shop with digital and analogue SKY boxes into the same 32" wide TV.
the analogue picture was great with a nice softness which I like.
The digital was clear and perfect.
I preferred the analogue, but we're clutching at straws here.
I reckon my TV analogy isn't far away from the one we are discussing (what are we discussing again?)

Digital - good clear perfect reproduction.
Analogue - same but a bit softer due to a little distortion.

In all honesty, the record or CD is a representation of a performance - not the actual performance itself. You have to be there for that.
On whatever medium through your hifi, neither to that extent are anywhere near actually being in the room with the Marshall amp up full or the orchestra in the room.

Due to that, both CD and Vinyl are good enough and the difference between the two isn't as big a difference as being there and not being there.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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BigAl
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotions]
      #169449 - 18/08/05 03:23 PM
So why then are we using expensive mics and preamps.
We should use cheap dynamic mics and average preamps to dirty it up.

It's time I went home.

Gigging this evening...

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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maaszy
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169450 - 18/08/05 03:23 PM
As a non-techie, are we not all missing something here? Us humans listen to everything analogue - we certainly don't have ears with ADDA converters. The sound we hear is usually caused by a speaker cone being made to move in and out to transmit the sound waves - a very analogue process because the cone can take up infinite positions between fully in and fully out. I am finding it hard to believe that it isn't possible to drive a speaker using a digitally generated sound so that the ins and outs, so to speak, exactly match the ins and outs produced by playing something recorded analogue. Surely the point is that we generally like the sound of analogue recordings because they are in fact "coloured" by the recording process itself, and the holy grail of making digital sound like analogue is actually a quest to mimic those "colourations".


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__
Who's never been here


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169458 - 18/08/05 03:29 PM
If we had carried on developing analogue recording and vinyl and record player technology. Then where would we be at now? Maybe some of those problems that Hugh pointed out would be smaller or gone problems. And 32 track home machines would be standard project kit.

I think vinyl and tape go in better they seem to stick in my memory better. But maybe thats the beer plugin.


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jerry123



Joined: 18/08/05
Posts: 43
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169460 - 18/08/05 03:34 PM
Here's the thing that convinced me when I was very young.
With digital, you are listening to a light that is translating data.
With tape, you are listening to the movement of a magnetic field's fluctuations. Getting closer.
With vinyl, you are listening to a physical object vibrating, physically recreating the vibrations that were in the room at the time of the tracking. It is the closest thing to a 'mould' of the sound that leaves the instruments. A physical, analog representation. My ears like it better.


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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169464 - 18/08/05 03:39 PM
I think the problem with digital is that it isnt really music its just numbers. When you look at a vinyl record, you can SEE the music, you can SEE the soundwaves as the grooves, turn the volume down and you can still hear music coming directly off the surface of the record, wheras digital is merely a numerical representaion of chunks of loudness, the sound is "squared off" by both the sampling rate and bit depth and thats what you can hear on a CD that is irritating compared to the smooth warm, relaxing sound to a vinyl record.

That guy may be trying to con people into buying his vitamins, but thats not to say he's not wrong about the stressfull effects of audio digitisation.

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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__
Who's never been here


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: jerry123]
      #169466 - 18/08/05 03:39 PM
Quote jerry123:

...you are listening to a physical object vibrating...




Welcome to the forum brother


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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169472 - 18/08/05 03:44 PM
Quote ow:

If we had carried on developing analogue recording and vinyl and record player technology. Then where would we be at now? Maybe some of those problems that Hugh pointed out would be smaller or gone problems. And 32 track home machines would be standard project kit.

I think vinyl and tape go in better they seem to stick in my memory better. But maybe thats the beer plugin.




no, you're right, the real crime here is that by the late 70's, analogue quality was still getting better that included both the recording technology and also the playback technology (vinyl), but today with MP3's and the like taking over digital is making the quality worse and in a much less pleasant way, as bad digital sounds far worse than bad analogue.

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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olivier
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169473 - 18/08/05 03:44 PM
listening to "the Dark Side of the Moon" vinyl on a £20,000 set-up (that includes the loudspeakers, can't remember the brand of it all) was the most memorable listening experience I ever had..

now count me on the vinyl lovers side


I have technics SL1200s at home and although they're not *great* sounding devices I still prefer their sound over iPod's sound... but I also use an iPod for commuting and on-the-go listening..


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Digital Emotions
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169474 - 18/08/05 03:45 PM
Quote Chickenjohn:

I think the problem with digital is that it isnt really music its just numbers. When you look at a vinyl record, you can SEE the music, you can SEE the soundwaves as the grooves




That just cannot be serious.
When after WW2 taperecorders become available
it was clearly an improvement, there is no argument against it.
And of course you couldn't see the music.

Digi Em.


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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotions]
      #169476 - 18/08/05 03:48 PM
Quote Digital Emotions:

Quote Chickenjohn:

I think the problem with digital is that it isnt really music its just numbers. When you look at a vinyl record, you can SEE the music, you can SEE the soundwaves as the grooves




That's just cannot be serious.
When after WW2 taperecorders become available
it was clearly an improvement, there is no argument against it.
And of course you couldn't see the music.

Digi Em.




I think your missing my point, on analogue tape the sound is still there in a captured magnetic form as analogue waves of magnetism on the tape. My mention of seeing the soundwaves on a record shows that the sound is actually on the record, its not just numbers.

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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__
Who's never been here


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Posts: 6263
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotions]
      #169477 - 18/08/05 03:48 PM
are you blind?

if you can look at a record and hear the music then you are a spaceman!

Edited by ow (18/08/05 03:50 PM)


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Jupiter_4
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169479 - 18/08/05 03:50 PM
I used to have a high end turntable and now I just listen to my CD collection via i-Tunes broadcast on my hifi system (still quite a nice one). I think that analogue sounds different but not necessarily better. I prefer the sound of analogue but it is a pain to have to get up every five minutes to change a track or record....and the good hifi stuff to get the best off a record is just too big; my turntable was made of four separate components as was my amp, all with dedicated power supplies etc, it was a joke, and now I am as happy as larry with i-Tunes. Did you know that Max Townsend, designer of the Rock Turntable, one of the best every made, said that he would love to be able to made a turntable that did base as well as a £200 CD player!!! But, I would not sell my Jupiter 4, Minimoog, CS60 etc though, but I do have a Roland and Yamaha modern thing for convenience of having lots of instant sounds on tap. These days convenience seems to be winning with music reproduction (and in dance circles with recording); maybe we all have our work/life balance wrong!!!!!


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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotions]
      #169481 - 18/08/05 03:52 PM
Quote Digital Emotions:

-snip-Digi Em.



just clocked your username.....
digital emotions, somewhat of a misnomer, me thinks, an oxymoron?

not you personally, just the very idea of putting the words "Digital" and "emotion" together...

join the guy who's just heard Dark Side of the moon as it should be heard and change to "Analogue emotions" puh-leease...

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169483 - 18/08/05 03:54 PM
Quote Chickenjohn:

Quote Digital Emotions:

Quote Chickenjohn:

I think the problem with digital is that it isnt really music its just numbers. When you look at a vinyl record, you can SEE the music, you can SEE the soundwaves as the grooves




That's just cannot be serious.
When after WW2 taperecorders become available
it was clearly an improvement, there is no argument against it.
And of course you couldn't see the music.

Digi Em.




I think your missing my point, on analogue tape the sound is still there in a captured magnetic form as analogue waves of magnetism on the tape. My mention of seeing the soundwaves on a record shows that the sound is actually on the record, its not just numbers.




would be nice idea if RIAA wasn't there

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169484 - 18/08/05 03:55 PM
Quote ow:

are you blind?

if you can look at a record and hear the music then you are a spaceman!




Not blind, but quite short sighted actually , I've had to wear glasses since I was a kid, and not deaf, thankfully so I CAN hear how much better vinyl sounds than CD.

Oh, and thanks for the compliment! NASA take note of OW and please employ me as a spaceman!

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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__
Who's never been here


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169486 - 18/08/05 03:58 PM
no offence, im a happy poster man


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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169487 - 18/08/05 03:58 PM
this is gorgeous! you can tell its going to sound good (OW) just by looking at it! The quality of analogue......

--------------------
Chaas
cJ na


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ChrisCarter
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169489 - 18/08/05 04:00 PM
A bit late to the discussion but here goes...

I can't stand vinyl and never have done, in fact I bloody hate it.
Why? Because once the sounds I've spent weeks recording and mixing are pressed onto vinyl they're magically transformed into a warped platter full of scratches, hiss, pops and distortion that destroys any dynamics, nuances or clarity the original music had. The sooner vinyl dies out the better!

Chris Carter
(been releasing stuff on vinyl since 1977)

And you can quote me on that...


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__
Who's never been here


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169490 - 18/08/05 04:01 PM
Ive just shot my bolt!


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maitreya



Joined: 04/07/05
Posts: 270
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169493 - 18/08/05 04:04 PM
does it matter what you prefer?!!?

Of course not it's the music that matters so get a grip on reality and stop taking crap ..Led zep4 is gonna sound great whether it's on my grannys gramophone or on N.A.S.A.s latest digital device....

Beauty is in the ears of the beholder....


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Scottdru]
      #169494 - 18/08/05 04:04 PM
Quote Scottdru:

The subject of the thread is the relative sound quality (subjective and/or objective) of vinyl versus digital recordings, and not the quality of music itself. While we all agree the music is most important (including, I'm quite sure, Mr. Albini), the topic is quite valid irrespective of the music. We could be talking about recording birds, the sounds of animals in the jungle, trains, thunderstorms, or anything else for that matter.




In which case it is easy to show that current, well designed and constructed digital recording technology surpasses (and by quite some margin) any form of analogue recording (tape, vinyl, or whatever) in every possible measureable technical quantity: signal-noise, headroom, linearity, distortion, wow and flutter, bandwidth and so on.

Quite simply, whatever you put on digital you get back the same way. It doesn't come back with wobbly pitch, or added harmonic distortion, or transient distortion, or tracking distortion, or noise modulation, or added noise come to that...

Clearly, some people like all those things -- just as some people like sepia-toned photographs -- and that's fine. We are talking about musical art here after all. But the technical argumetns are entirely pointless because the case has already been proven absolutely and completely.

I have several hundred vinyl records. I play some of them occasionally/ I love the scale of them, the cover art, the very tactile quality of loading the record onto the turntable adn lowering the cartrdige. I quite enjoy tinkering with the VTA and raking weights too -- it's all part of the fun.

But I also know that if I swapped the cartridge for another make it would sound completely different. Same applies to swapping the turntable itself. It is not a reliable, consistent or accurate medium. End of story.

hugh

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PWGLE



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169496 - 18/08/05 04:04 PM
sound, is accually changes in presure.

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The real musiclover



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169497 - 18/08/05 04:05 PM
Quote Chickenjohn:

The quality of analogue......




How did you get a picture of my studio? (I wish!)


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PWGLE



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #169498 - 18/08/05 04:05 PM
i'll tell you this for nothing on the earth sound travels faster in one direction! but which one is it!

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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169499 - 18/08/05 04:09 PM
Nine out of ten Dogs say they like Vinyl better


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PPP



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169502 - 18/08/05 04:12 PM
You know, if you'd round up a dozen or so "critical listeners" who have years of experience with mastering, mixing, and things of that sort,... and you play them a song off of a CD on some $3000 ADAM monitors, and then you play the same song but off of vinyl though that has absolutely no scratches and doesn't pop (not telling which song is digital which is not) do you really think that they would be able to make a unanimous decision? I think not!


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: PPP]
      #169507 - 18/08/05 04:15 PM
I think they could


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mattneighbour
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169508 - 18/08/05 04:15 PM
Well I'm glad my opinion is in line with Hugh and John's, it makes me feel like I'm still a proper engineer, and not a sentimentalist.

It may be because I've never had access to a top-end turntable and hi-fi setup, but all vinyl to me sounds dreadful. It sounds like there is a low-pass filter at 12kHz, there's no top end there. And the point about bass has already been made. I'd rather make a recording distributed on CD that gets played in a £200 CD player and is guaranteed to sound accurate, than make a recording that ends up on vinyl and sounds awful played through a £200 home turntable setup. I must admit though I can't stand mp3 under 256kbps.

There's no point in arguments along the lines of 'there's no emotion in numbers' / you can't see the music / stepped waveforms sound bad. The mathematics of A/D and D/A is solid. I agree that 16-bit should be improved upon (especially for classical) and that higher sample rates can make digital processing sound better, but:

Fundamentally, digital replay has a better frequency response, distortion spec, dynamic range, wow and flutter, crosstalk etc etc than vinyl.

Oh, and before someone argues that better spec doesn't mean better sound, I think that it does. Having said all that, I quite like the sound of open-reel tape on some material, but accept that it isn't as accurate as digital.

One last point to do with the digital camera comparison (I am a bit of a (film) photographer ) - it seems that the best results are had with digital cameras by capturing the image in RAW mode, exposing to retain as much information as possible then doing post-processing on it to make it look the best possible (boost saturation maybe, shift the white balance) before creating the final TIFF or jpeg file. It strikes me that this is similar to recording in 24-bit then applying mastering plugins, normalising and dithering down to 16-bit for CD distribution. In comparison, with film, the film itself has a certain 'look' - colour balance, saturation etc, which is pleasing but isn't exactly accurate - and the lab enhance this. A bit like tape compression and distortion making things sound good, and having to work harder with digital to get similar sounds.

I'm rambling now, I'll stop.

Matt

EDIT: Oops, took me so long to write that Hugh made the point first!

Edited by mattneighbour (18/08/05 04:19 PM)


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Stan



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169509 - 18/08/05 04:17 PM
Hello Steve
Records played on average systems never sounded that good.
What system do you use?

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BigAl
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169510 - 18/08/05 04:18 PM
And it's great fun turning Pink and Perky records down to slower speeds to hear the guy singing.

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PWGLE



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169511 - 18/08/05 04:18 PM
ye theres a chance they could, things are mastered specifcally for vinyl...

its likely to have a different tonal quality...

how about you put the record's sound on the cd, and play the cd though that RIAA filter as well! less varibles!

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maitreya



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #169512 - 18/08/05 04:18 PM
Depends according to general theory of relativatity....and where you are equator or poles


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PWGLE



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: maitreya]
      #169514 - 18/08/05 04:21 PM
yep

and the fact that we are moving!

constant movement is a bee to spot!

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Les



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169518 - 18/08/05 04:27 PM
While we're talking Vinyl, I have a SUBERB old turntable made by a company called Goldring Lenco. It's 70's, with lovely wood body, tiny little weights for the tone arm and a fabulous sound.

trouble is, I cant find a cartridge for it

Any ideas anyone? I assume Stantons and-the-like wont work, in fact pretty sure they wont.

--------------------
"If I had all the money i'd spent on drink, i'd spend it on drink". Vivian Stanshall

Edited by Les (from the Island of Lesbos) (18/08/05 04:27 PM)


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Arse Bandit



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169522 - 18/08/05 04:31 PM
Quote Chickenjohn:

There is a theory posted by a well known nusic industry person (I cant remember who and don;t have the link) that says that listening to digital music can make humans feel on edge and irritated, subconsciously wheras listening to pure analoge (a vinyl record made from analogue equipment) is relaxing and pleasant.

He also goes on to suggest that this is the cause of most of the antisocial behaviour and crime in the modern world, (and possibly terrorism?).

Hard to believe, but listening to vinyl IS more relaxing and pleasant, he gave a technical reason for it, which I cant remember.

What do you think about that???

and despite what Hugh says vinyl DOES sound much better than CD, although i do have an iPOD, just to try and prove I'm not a complete technophobe.





I think I read that comment in an interview somewhere with Rupert Neve. I don't have golden ears myself, but I can understand his point if I think about badly encoded mp3s, for instance - they irritate the hell out of me. As for vinyl being better than CD, I prefer to concentrate on the emotion of the music - when I master that (i.e. never!) then I'll move onto the vinyl vs CD question...


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The real musiclover



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Les]
      #169523 - 18/08/05 04:31 PM

Hehe, Goldrings, 16-78rpm and beyond.

To boldly listen where no one has listened before.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Stephen Bennett]
      #169525 - 18/08/05 04:32 PM
Quote Stephen Bennett:

I have a lot of new vinyl and it's almost always better than the CD version.




But how do you define better? You clearly don't mean better in any technial, objective sense, because we can show that vinyl technology certainly isn't better than digital technology.

So you must be talking about subjective preferences... and that is a no-win argument isn't it. What I prefer is always going to sound better to me than what you prefer...

I once spent a considerable amount of time listening to two stereo loudspeaker setups hidden from view behind a curtain. One pair was significantly 'better' than the other.
It turned out the two systems were identical in every way except that one had a tweak to the crossover that gave a mild lift of 0.75dB in the upper midrange -- yet it sounded more open, more spacious and seemed to have a richer bottom end too!

The frequency response of most record playing systems is all over the place, so it's not surprising that subjective opinions vary so much!

I've spent a lot of time in studios comparing directly what came through the desk and over the speakers during the recording, with what came back off whatever medium I was recording on. In the days of tape, the difference was clearly audible -- not unpleasant, but audible all the same. With good quality digits (and I'm the first to ackonwledge that a lot of budget gear isn't 'good'), the perceivable difference is so small as to be utterly irrelevant.

I've also been able to comapre at first hand several pressed vinyl discs with their original tapes, and again the differences were obvious and not entirely flattering. I'm not saying the records were unpleasant, but they were certainly not the same as the tapes.

If you like the sound of vinyl that's fine. Enjoy it. Some people like the sound of 78s or old cassette tapes too. But please don't try to tell me they are 'better'. More enjoyable to you on your replay system, maybe, but not 'better'.

hugh

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Jupiter_4
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169527 - 18/08/05 04:34 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote Scottdru:

The subject of the thread is the relative sound quality (subjective and/or objective) of vinyl versus digital recordings, and not the quality of music itself. While we all agree the music is most important (including, I'm quite sure, Mr. Albini), the topic is quite valid irrespective of the music. We could be talking about recording birds, the sounds of animals in the jungle, trains, thunderstorms, or anything else for that matter.




In which case it is easy to show that current, well designed and constructed digital recording technology surpasses (and by quite some margin) any form of analogue recording (tape, vinyl, or whatever) in every possible measureable technical quantity: signal-noise, headroom, linearity, distortion, wow and flutter, bandwidth and so on.

Quite simply, whatever you put on digital you get back the same way. It doesn't come back with wobbly pitch, or added harmonic distortion, or transient distortion, or tracking distortion, or noise modulation, or added noise come to that...

Clearly, some people like all those things -- just as some people like sepia-toned photographs -- and that's fine. We are talking about musical art here after all. But the technical argumetns are entirely pointless because the case has already been proven absolutely and completely.

I have several hundred vinyl records. I play some of them occasionally/ I love the scale of them, the cover art, the very tactile quality of loading the record onto the turntable adn lowering the cartrdige. I quite enjoy tinkering with the VTA and raking weights too -- it's all part of the fun.

But I also know that if I swapped the cartridge for another make it would sound completely different. Same applies to swapping the turntable itself. It is not a reliable, consistent or accurate medium. End of story.

hugh




Hugh I agree with you (mostly) about digitial reproduction in the studio, but not the home. You seem to suggest that all CD players sound the same (the inference taking from your cartridge change on your turntable), surely you cannot be suggesting that every CD player will make a CD sound exactly the same if played through the same amp and speakers? Probably a slip of the digit with your typing. My personal experience in blind tests (which is how I chose my current CD player and amp) is that CD players do sound different, some more than others in the same way that turntables do.

The other problem is that D/A A/D converters and digital converters in digital desks do not all sound the same so what ends on on a hard disk does not always sound like the original instrument or singer, especially if it was not a digital instrument which is why there are budget converters and high end converters, desk etc.

Me, I'm happy so long as I like the music, but agree that playing with turntables is fun once in a while and can sound nice to many of us who grew up having no choice as CD had not been invented.


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jerry123



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169528 - 18/08/05 04:35 PM
One more thing, drag a nail across a record and then, do the same to the CD version of the release. Let me know which one sounds better then.


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The real musiclover



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Arse Bandit]
      #169530 - 18/08/05 04:36 PM
Quote Jon Dickinson:



As for vinyl being better than CD, I prefer to concentrate on the emotion of the music




I agree with that bit.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: maaszy]
      #169532 - 18/08/05 04:42 PM
Quote maaszy:

Us humans listen to everything analogue - we certainly don't have ears with ADDA converters.




Er.. yes we do. The nerve cells in the inner ear send digital pulses to the brain.... The ear is a very sophisticated (and extremely non-linear) A-D converter.

Quote:

Surely the point is that we generally like the sound of analogue recordings because they are in fact "coloured" by the recording process itself, and the holy grail of making digital sound like analogue is actually a quest to mimic those "colourations".




I think you have a good point here.

hugh

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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169533 - 18/08/05 04:42 PM
is it true that vinyl/tape can provide a greater frequency range than a cd.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169536 - 18/08/05 04:47 PM
Quote Chickenjohn:

I think your missing my point, on analogue tape the sound is still there in a captured magnetic form as analogue waves of magnetism on the tape.




Magnetic recording is a digital medium. You can only have two states: N-S or S-N -- that is a Binary state. it is a digital medium.

With 'analogue recording' on tape, there are a huge number of available magnetic 'cells', and the relative proportion of those biased N-S as opposed to S-N is used to encode the required 'analogue' signal state -- just as in a digital medium it is the balance of 1s and 0s. Your argument is fatally flawed I'm afraid.

Hugh

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The real musiclover



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169537 - 18/08/05 04:47 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:



Quote:

Surely the point is that we generally like the sound of analogue recordings because they are in fact "coloured" by the recording process itself, and the holy grail of making digital sound like analogue is actually a quest to mimic those "colourations".




I think you have a good point here.







In a world of many thumbhits, sometimes the hammer strikes a nail fairly squarely, very good point.


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Who's never been here


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169538 - 18/08/05 04:49 PM
Surely the point is that we generally like the sound of analogue recordings because they are in fact "coloured" by the recording process itself, and the holy grail of making digital sound like analogue is actually a quest to mimic those "colourations".

Why are we trying to mimic something that doesn't sound 'better'


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Digital Emotions
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169540 - 18/08/05 04:50 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:



Flying Mole amp review

Strangely, the distortion figure given in the specifications (0.03 percent at 50W output) appears rather unimpressive, yet auditioning the amp suggests it compares very favourably to a Bryston — which quotes distortion figures with several more zeros before the digit. The logical conclusion is that what we hear and what we measure are not necessarily the same thing! In many ways, the Flying Mole amps can be compared to a really good valve triode design — which would share a similar, yet equally inaudible, distortion figure.





Edited by Digital Emotions (18/08/05 04:52 PM)


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169542 - 18/08/05 04:52 PM
Quote ow:

If we had carried on developing analogue recording and vinyl and record player technology. Then where would we be at now? Maybe some of those problems that Hugh pointed out would be smaller or gone problems. And 32 track home machines would be standard project kit.




No, I'm afraid not. By the eaerly 1990s we had already achieved all that was possible with analogue technology. The very best analogue tape machines were excellent, but huge, heavy, and extremely expensive -- totally reliant on expensive precision mechanics. A top of the range Studer two-track machine cost about £12K, and it simply wasn't possible to reduce the cost without also reducing the performance. The same applies to vinyl record players. A really good EMT broadcast turntable cost about £5K and was capable of stunning performance... but any attempt to reduce the cost also reduced the performance for the same reasons -- the precision mechanics are esstial, but inherently very expensive, bulky and heavy.

In contrast, a top quality Studer CD player at the same time cost £1200, and a mastering quality Sony PCM1610/U-matic set up cost about £6k -- and both offered better technical specs than the analogue equipment they replaced. They were more convenient, easier to use, more reliable, more consistent, and... er... better!

hugh

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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: PPP]
      #169544 - 18/08/05 04:57 PM
Quote PlinPlickemn:

... do you really think that they would be able to make a unanimous decision? I think not!




No, of course they couldn't. They would be able to say which version they prefer -- but that would be a purely subjective opinion, and I would guess there would be a roughly 50/50 split as to who preferred what.

To make your test valid, you'd have to play them the orignal source master recording, and then ask which of the other two was the same. And (assuming it was mastered sympathetically) it would be the CD.

Hugh

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jerry123



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169545 - 18/08/05 04:57 PM
I was under the impression that digital tape ran magnetic particles north-south to replace ones and zeros, and that analog tape actually lays down a constantly fluctuating field. Is Hugh saying that they are both using north south (digital representation) magnetic particles? If so, what is the real difference?


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yorkio
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Les]
      #169546 - 18/08/05 04:58 PM
Quote Les (from the Island of Lesbos):

While we're talking Vinyl, I have a SUBERB old turntable made by a company called Goldring Lenco. It's 70's, with lovely wood body, tiny little weights for the tone arm and a fabulous sound.

trouble is, I cant find a cartridge for it

Any ideas anyone?




Dunno, but I'm sure someone on Lenco Heaven will!


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Back_AndToTheLeft



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The real musiclover]
      #169547 - 18/08/05 05:00 PM
Quote The real musiclover:

Quote Jon Dickinson:



As for vinyl being better than CD, I prefer to concentrate on the emotion of the music




I agree with that bit.




Music doesn't have emotion, people do. Music has 'intensity' - all other responses are due to learned references, as Eduard Hanslick said back in 1854.


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Audiobuffer



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169548 - 18/08/05 05:02 PM
Music gives an immediate emotional response. Not only that, the feelings it creates can last a lifetime. A sense of place, of smell, of time - it can all be triggered by listening to music. Perhaps, your love of Vinyl is derived from this emotional connection. The spinning endless slick crackling at 45 rpm, as you dream of loving the girl who never looks your way. No advancement in technology can take away the memory of your first love.

Rock on
Audiobuffer


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The real musiclover



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Back_AndToTheLeft]
      #169549 - 18/08/05 05:03 PM


The emotion that is subjectively conveyed by the music, perhaps?


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jellyjim
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169550 - 18/08/05 05:03 PM
steve you're a legend, thank you for the music and all that

is sound quality the only criteria that interests you wrt to vinyl over other mediums?

what i find really interesting about vinyl and also the continued use of analogue equipment throughout the music production process is how it interrupts the popular narrative that, as technology advances it improves

certainly for something like building an aircraft, advances in aerospace engineering are welcome and by and large contribute to safer, faster and more comfortable aircraft, something we all want and arguably is objectively an 'improvement'

that the move from analogue to digital recording technology and analogue to digital delivery formats arguably isn't an improvement is manifest of the inherent nature of the matter at hand; the appreciation of music and sound, and specifically the fact that that is subjective, non-quantitative and imbued with personal emotion and experience

fine artists, museums curators, art historians etc don't, as far as i know, dispute the general merits of oils over watercolours, it is understood they are different mediums with different qualities and that the focus is on what has been expressed and how the uniqueness of each medium has facilitated that

lurking beneath the differences between the example above and the music business is, just that, 'business'. a stagnated recording technology or format delivery market is unacceptable in economic terms, there can be no growth without innovation, and if corporations like to do anything it's grow!

so what fascinates me about vinyl (and old recoding equipment) is that it's fetishisation is no less than a political act in this global economy of unrestrained corporate growth, cynical engineered obsolescence and aggressive marketing and consumer bullying

recycling technology, stepping off the innovation timeline because you like things the way they are at a given point and denying the market it's supposed improvements regains a little of our autonomy, empowers the individual beyond the status of passive consumer and ultimately encourages a less monochrome cultural space, which ultimately is where music must belong

ymmv

jim

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Jupiter_4]
      #169553 - 18/08/05 05:08 PM
Quote Jupiter_4:

You seem to suggest that all CD players sound the same (the inference taking from your cartridge change on your turntable), surely you cannot be suggesting that every CD player will make a CD sound exactly the same if played through the same amp and speakers?




Good point. Yes, I agree that CD players from different manufacturers and at different price points do sound slightly different -- and only the best are as tonally accurate as they should be. The variations are normally because corners have been cut in the analogue output circuitry. However, I would maintain that the sonic differences between a cheap £50 CD player and a reference grade model at £2000 are considerably smaller than the sonic differences between a cheap Fidelity record Player and a Linn Sondek or a Townsend -- which span a similar price range.

Quote:

The other problem is that D/A A/D converters and digital converters in digital desks do not all sound the same.




Again, I agree with you. The best quality stuff is always more accurate than the cheap budget gear. But again, I would suggest the differences are far smaller than between equivalent analogue equipment. A big Studer two-track machine sounds quite different to a cheap Akai machine -- even if both are set up optimally. A far bigger sonic difference than that between a budget and high end converter!

Digital gear, while not entirely perfect is still considerably more consistent than analogue recorders and replay machines ever were.

hugh

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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169559 - 18/08/05 05:11 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

.....No, I'm afraid not. By the eaerly 1990s we had already achieved all that was possible with analogue technology. The very best analogue tape machines were excellent, but huge, heavy, and extremely expensive.......




I would rather argue with my wife over the kitchen than you over any technical issue.

But I cant get my work, with my limited technical knowhow to sound as good with my limited digital setup as I could get it to sound, more quickly with an equally limited tape and desk setup of say fifteen years ago. No matter what I try. I cant get the thing to spring.

I transfered some tapes recently from an old R8 via an aw4416 for archiving. And we sat here grinning as the tapes were playing. And i cant find that sound. They sound lovely in the daw actually too.

Maybe I need to spend some more money on convertors or some other such thing.

I was dreaming maybe about the project 32 track tape machine. But it don't hurt to dream.


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Scottdru
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: mattneighbour]
      #169560 - 18/08/05 05:13 PM
Quote mattneighbour:

A bit like tape compression and distortion making things sound good, and having to work harder with digital to get similar sounds.




Well, this was another thing I thought was interesting about Mr. Albini's comments in the interview . . . he said he does not like to use compression at all in his mixes. But we can talk of tape compression, and I assume also that music that is mastered to vinyl is run through compression/limiting to accomodate the smaller dynamic range that vinyl as capable of.

If I'm not mistaken, the venerable Fairchild 670 was originally built for just that . . . for mastering to disc. Otherwise, back in the earlier days they didn't typically use compressors to tape or on their mixes.

I guess that was going to be my next question for Mr. Albini.

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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169562 - 18/08/05 05:16 PM
Quote ow:

is it true that vinyl/tape can provide a greater frequency range than a cd.




Kind of. CD specs say it can accommodate 5Hz to 20kHz, and with full amplitude at any frequency and a consistent signal-noise ratio.

A well set up and maintained analogue tape machine running at 15 ips will better that bandwidth slightly (maybe 25kHz), and at 30 ips it might reach 30kHz. However The bottom end won't go down as far, and certainly not as smoothly, and the signal-noise ratio gets significantly worse at higher frequencies. The overall dynamic range of analogue tape is also significantly worse than CD of course, unless you use Dolby SR on tape, but that opens a whole new argument...

The vinyl record is far more compromised. In theory you can cut high frequency signals to 40kHz or so, but only with very small amplitudes -- the headroom at HF is quite restricted. The amount of bass you can record is also heavily constrained by the effects of the RIAA recording curve, as well as considerations of playing time and tracking distortion. And as for dynamic range, let's not even bother thinking about how bad that is...

Digital recording at 24/96 is orders of magnitude better (in the strictly technical sense) than even the best tape recording.

hugh

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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169564 - 18/08/05 05:21 PM
Quote ow:

I would rather argue with my wife over the kitchen than you over any technical issue.




That's the nicest thing someone has said all day...

Quote:

But I cant get my work, with my limited technical knowhow to sound as good with my limited digital setup as I could get it to sound, more quickly with an equally limited tape and desk setup of say fifteen years ago.




That could be because your expectations are highier now and your listening is more critical. More likely to be because the digital medium exposes flaws and imperfections far more readily than analogue ever did.

Quote:

I transfered some tapes recently from an old R8 via an aw4416 for archiving. And we sat here grinning as the tapes were playing. And i cant find that sound. They sound lovely in the daw actually too.




Which proves the point that digital isn't 'bad' if it is used appropriately.

hugh

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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: jerry123]
      #169568 - 18/08/05 05:27 PM
Quote jerry123:

I was under the impression that digital tape ran magnetic particles north-south to replace ones and zeros, and that analog tape actually lays down a constantly fluctuating field.




You are correct.

Quote:

Is Hugh saying that they are both using north south (digital representation) magnetic particles?




Yes. because that's all you can do with magnetic particles.

Quote:

If so, what is the real difference?




In a digital recording on magnetic tape, the particles in a given area of the tape are all magnetised to face the same direction. That part of tape is fully saturated either as N-S or S-N to represent the required binary 1 or 0.

In an analogue recording on magnetic tape some particles are aligned N-S while others are aligned S-N, and the relative numbers of each in a given area determine an overall level of magnetisation corresponding to the required anlogue signal level.

In effect, each magnetic particle corresponds to a single bit in a digital system. magnetic tape is, inherently, a digital medium and exhibits the same quantisation effects as digital audio systems. This is also the reason why very slow speeds or very narrow tracks in analogue tape recorders are inherently noisier than fast and wide tracks. Fewer magnetic particles -- fewer bits -- higher quantisation noise.

Hugh

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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169570 - 18/08/05 05:32 PM
Just to clarify Hugh, I don;t mean "better" as in more technically accurate, but better as in "sounds better, more enjoyable" which vinyl is.

I don't think its possible to technically accurately reproduce the sound of a rock band, because, for example, if you are playing in such a band, as the guitarist, then your own guitar will be louder, walk over to the bass player and you'll hear him louder etc... plus, listen in different parts of the room and the sound changes. At a gig, the sound changes with (hopefully) a hall full of people and I have played both types of gigs.

Plus the close micing technique is not representative of the sound of guitar or drums a few feet away. So we eq and compress to try and get the sound back to sounding like that rock band, or at least make it sound good like it did in the room in front of the band.

When you listen to a loud band, your ears and brain apply a kind of psychoacoustic compression so at high volume, so things sound different again. So how do you define the accurate sound of a rock band???

Plus variations in the listeners room and system make accuracy impossible. However, I do prefer the sound of CD for classical.

But Highway to Hell DOES sound fantastic on vinyl!!!!

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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169572 - 18/08/05 05:35 PM
Perhaps the real issue is the medium. For instance if I was a painter working in watercolour and thats how i learned and progressed then moving to oil on canvas is a whole new medium. Could be quite restrictive. Not in an experimental phase, but in a pour it out creative phase. I dont really want to just be 'someone who works on tape'. Want to embrace the flexibility of technology and have. Have given it five years to learn. I dont think the results are 'bad'. But maybe its just not me. Maybe the same for the listener. Nothing looks quite like bit of wedgewood.

Wish I could find a way to enjoy recording to a daw like i used to love recording to tape. I could lose days. Now I have to take my statutory half hour eye rest.

Went a bit off the subject there. Bear with me...


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Steve Hill
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Les]
      #169573 - 18/08/05 05:36 PM
Goldring were as far as I recall a fairly common consumer brand, not that expensive. Unless the tone arm has been messed with there is no reason any modern cartridge should not fit.

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feline1
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169576 - 18/08/05 05:42 PM
Yeah but what this thread is all about is really an exciting male baboon contest for people to show how cool and quirky they are, versus how rational they are.

As usual though, Feline1 can trump ewes all cos he is soooooo cool that he doesn't even listen to *recorded* music any more, which is soooooooooo 20th century,
and instead keeps his own chamber ensemble under the stairs, feeding them on jaffa cakes and cocoa pops.
Don't worry though, they're all getting paid full MU rates.

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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: jellyjim]
      #169578 - 18/08/05 05:50 PM
Quote jellyjim:

steve you're a legend, thank you for the music and all that _snip_
so what fascinates me about vinyl (and old recoding equipment) is that it's fetishisation is no less than a political act in this global economy of unrestrained corporate growth, cynical engineered obsolescence and aggressive marketing and consumer bullying

recycling technology, stepping off the innovation timeline because you like things the way they are at a given point and denying the market it's supposed improvements regains a little of our autonomy, empowers the individual beyond the status of passive consumer and ultimately encourages a less monochrome cultural space, which ultimately is where music must belong

ymmv

jim




I agree with that absolutely- its rebelling against the modern corporate consumer capitalist culture- which is good, Rock n Roll should be about rebellion! and for the same reasons I like old cars- in many ways cars from the 1960's (or older) are better than modern cars. Not in every way are they better, but in many important ways. That also fits in with liking analogue and vinyl over digital/ CD.

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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Scottdru]
      #169580 - 18/08/05 05:53 PM
Quote Scottdru:

Quote mattneighbour:

A bit like tape compression and distortion making things sound good, and having to work harder with digital to get similar sounds.




Well, this was another thing I thought was interesting about Mr. Albini's comments in the interview . . . he said he does not like to use compression at all in his mixes. But we can talk of tape compression, and I assume also that music that is mastered to vinyl is run through compression/limiting to accomodate the smaller dynamic range that vinyl as capable of.

If I'm not mistaken, the venerable Fairchild 670 was originally built for just that . . . for mastering to disc. Otherwise, back in the earlier days they didn't typically use compressors to tape or on their mixes.

I guess that was going to be my next question for Mr. Albini.




maybe he just drives the meters well into the red when tracking (which you can't do in digital, it sounds horrible....)

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The Byre



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: feline1]
      #169589 - 18/08/05 06:05 PM
Quote feline1:

Yeah but what this thread is all about is really an exciting male baboon contest . . .




Kinda says it all, really.

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The Byre



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169593 - 18/08/05 06:09 PM
And while Feline Dreams and The Byre go off into the distance, comparing the size of their organs (my A100 is bigger than your Roland!) have read of this:

http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pageadder_pa ge_id=37/

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__
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169598 - 18/08/05 06:17 PM
Vinyl is better than anything else.

No, looks like its just different to anything else.


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kenwyn



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169601 - 18/08/05 06:26 PM
Hello Steve and other proper format fans (vinyl)

I think the difference is like comparing a Green pepper from Tesco to one grown in your garden. One just should be eaten the other (from tesco) thrown at people who think CD's are better than vinyl.

Were compressors used as much on vinyl recordings as they are on digital recordings ?

I think music now is compressed so much that all the sounds are too squashed. Some how to get 'the' sound on digital formats you have to squash it to the point of losing a lot of the performance sound. I dont include Classical or Jazz music in with this I am talking about pop and rock.

QUOTE

"For instance my original copy of Highway to Hell (AC/DC) sounds superb, the drums at the start have so much more depth and air than anything I've ever heard from CD and the guitar riff, has real crunch, and when the vocals come in, phew...its like Bonn Scott is still alive and in the room."

QUOTE


The ACDC comment about Highway to hell is so bang on I just think that Vinyl sounds so good for Rock music. Pop junk is far more suited to CD because the zingy sound outways all of the talent. Shrink wrapped sound for a shrink wrapped society. Bugger I sound old......

I think a great performance sounds better on vinyl, anyone who doesnt agree with me is poo.

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Chickenjohn
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: kenwyn]
      #169602 - 18/08/05 06:30 PM
Quote kenwyn:

Hello Steve and other proper format fans (vinyl)
_snip-The ACDC comment about Highway to hell is so bang on I just think that Vinyl sounds so good for Rock music. Pop junk is far more suited to CD because the zingy sound outways all of the talent. Shrink wrapped sound for a shrink wrapped society. Bugger I sound old......

I think a great performance sounds better on vinyl, anyone who doesnt agree with me is poo.




AT LAST! someone who knows what I'm on about of course I agree with kenwyn, especially as he also makes a dig at Tesco- and yes, home grown food does taste much better too!!!

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Chaas
cJ na


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*INACTIVE USER*



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Posts: 1217
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169605 - 18/08/05 06:34 PM
A good recording of a good performance is a good recording of a good performance... I have just as bad vinyl recordings as bad cd's. Only do all the vinyl's sound worse because of the noise, the limited dynamics and the distortion.

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__
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169606 - 18/08/05 06:34 PM
Dare I say a CD is like a joint without any dope in it.


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Stan



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169617 - 18/08/05 07:12 PM
The 'vinyl is better' argument would appear to be lost. Getting the best from vinyl was always a bit of an exclusive exercise as the good equipment is so expensive. Back then it would cost you around £1000 for a Linn Sondek without cartridge or arm. You had to be a big fan then. You would want to be mad now!
I'd still love know what turntable, arm and cartridge Steve Albini uses.

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.. is this thing on?


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Rob C



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169620 - 18/08/05 07:16 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

The vinyl record is far more compromised.




I mentioned earlier... vinyl albums run at 21 ips (start) to less than 10 ips at the end.

I always wondered why nobody seems to acknowledge how poor vinyl can be in the middle of the record.

No pro would use tape running at 8 ips.


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Wurlitzer
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Scottdru]
      #169624 - 18/08/05 07:42 PM
Quote Scottdru:

Quote BigAl:


On the other hand, a Korg which sounds similar to a Rhodes - well so what if it's not a Rhodes.



I've yet to hear a Korg or any other box that's not a Rhodes sound as good as a properly tuned and maintained Rhodes.




Have you heard the Scarbee Rhodes (RSV '73)?


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Wurlitzer
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #169629 - 18/08/05 07:54 PM
Quote BigAl:

Is anyone actually getting my point?




Yes, I did.

The Byre's original point was completely circular. Of COURSE the only thing that "sounds like" a piano (or Rhodes, or whatever) is a piano, because that's the only thing that IS a piano!

But what he implies by that, and what a lot of people assume, is that automatically makes the real piano superior in all circumstances to any sampled or synthesized "piano-ish" sound. It doesn't.

Sample developers have spent untold man-hours over the last few decades chasing ever-closer imitation of real instruments, and in some cases (such as the Scarbee Rhodes I mentioned) they have come incredibly close. But now we're entering a new phase (IMO) where some of these sample sets just sound so damn BEAUTIFUL as instruments in their own right, that who cares what infentisimal differences there are between them and the original instruments?

I think they had to go through the search for authenticity to get to this point, because that was the only way to get the variety and organic shaping into the sound that could achieve that level of beauty. But now it's there, can't we all just enjoy it, in and of itself? Without having to prove how much we know about music technology by wetting our pants over the fact that the harmonics in the piano sustain aren't exactly the same as a real Bosendorfer in the Royal Festival Hall, or that the imitation Leslie effect doesn't spin up exactly the right way.

I've let go of this stuff ages ago. If it sounds rich, interesting and organic, my ears are drawn to it and I'll explore it. If not, I won't (and that could just as easily be the case for a badly recorded piano played by a poor player).


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Wurlitzer
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169636 - 18/08/05 08:11 PM
Quote Chickenjohn:

I think the problem with digital is that it isnt really music its just numbers. When you look at a vinyl record, you can SEE the music, you can SEE the soundwaves as the grooves, turn the volume down and you can still hear music coming directly off the surface of the record, wheras digital is merely a numerical representaion of chunks of loudness, the sound is "squared off" by both the sampling rate and bit depth and thats what you can hear on a CD that is irritating compared to the smooth warm, relaxing sound to a vinyl record.




I don't buy that argument at all. In both cases, what you are hearing is analogue sound. You're misrepresenting the CD by looking at "the numbers", because they belong to an earlier stage of the process that is irrelevant to your ears. Somewhere after that in the chain, those numbers have to be converted back to analogue, and at that point you have just the same physical representation of soundwaves.

Now you may argue that the conversion to digital on the CD has ruined that irreperably, but I would say to that that it's only another process in the production of the final product. I think people have this highly misguided idea that an analogue recording is somehow "the same" as the original performance. It isn't. The soundwaves have been through a process in being committed to the recording medium. Somebody had to choose to record them from a particular point in the room. Somebody applied compression and EQ and God knows what else to them. Then, as has already been pointed about, the simple fact of pressing the vinyl distorted them beyond all recognition.

"All art is artifice". A vinyl recording is just that: a RECORDING. It can no more make you THERE in the studio listening to the Beatles than reading a Playboy can make you there in the bedroom with Miss September.

A lot has been said about distortion in this thread, but the real distortion is the distortion of nostalgia. For the "good old days" when you could leave your door unlocked, children didn't answer back and recordings were made the "real" way, which somehow imprinted the very molecular structure of the musicians on the record. The truth is, it was just a technique. If some of the products of that technique did and still do sound great, it's because the musicians were great and the technique was applied in an expert and/or inspired way. It doesn't make it inherently better than a different technique.

The only judge of that is the ears. I have plenty of CDs that sound fantastic to me. You might not think so, but there's no more objective basis for that then for the fact that your favourite colour is green and mine's purple.


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Steve Hill
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: kenwyn]
      #169644 - 18/08/05 08:24 PM
Quote kenwyn:

Hello Steve and other proper format fans (vinyl)

I think the difference is like comparing a Green pepper from Tesco to one grown in your garden. One just should be eaten the other (from tesco) thrown at people who think CD's are better than vinyl.

Were compressors used as much on vinyl recordings as they are on digital recordings ?

I think music now is compressed so much that all the sounds are too squashed. Some how to get 'the' sound on digital formats you have to squash it to the point of losing a lot of the performance sound. I dont include Classical or Jazz music in with this I am talking about pop and rock.

QUOTE

"For instance my original copy of Highway to Hell (AC/DC) sounds superb, the drums at the start have so much more depth and air than anything I've ever heard from CD and the guitar riff, has real crunch, and when the vocals come in, phew...its like Bonn Scott is still alive and in the room."

QUOTE


The ACDC comment about Highway to hell is so bang on I just think that Vinyl sounds so good for Rock music. Pop junk is far more suited to CD because the zingy sound outways all of the talent. Shrink wrapped sound for a shrink wrapped society. Bugger I sound old......

I think a great performance sounds better on vinyl, anyone who doesnt agree with me is poo.




That's confusing two arguments. You can compress the hell out of vinyl (see much modern club mix stuff) and you don't have to compress the hell out of CD (see a lot of classical music especially e.g. niche players like Naxos).

Compression or lack of it has absolutely nothing to do with the inherent quality of the medium.

--------------------
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Steve Albini



Joined: 18/08/05
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169646 - 18/08/05 08:32 PM
Hello again.
You sure like to type fellas. I couldn't read everything yet. But I have to tell you something. If you could get rid of just one your very own village idiot BigAl you would have much more meaningful discussion here. And this thread wouldn't be even half as long.
Hugh Robjohns is a good man. You listen to him.

O.K. I'm gonna call it a day.


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archdake mkII
won't go away


Joined: 01/09/04
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169658 - 18/08/05 08:59 PM
I personally find vinyl to sound more alive and breathy. OF course many CDs that carry the label 'digitally remastered' aren't that well translated into the CD format and making a proper vinyl master takes quite an experience with the cutting lathe. A mastering engineer who had worked in Motown during its heyday explained to me all of the painstaking process needed for this and said he wouldn't like to be anywhere near that machinery again!

Anyway, vinyl indeed has some technical 'faults' but who said that a recording medium needs to be technically perfect (or 'flat' as many seem to translate 'perfect') - the incredibly foolish human ear is nowhere near linear and flat. Maybe vinyl fits our nature...


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Marky
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169673 - 18/08/05 09:37 PM
Quote Steve Albini:

Hello again.
You sure like to type fellas. I couldn't read everything yet. But I have to tell you something. If you could get rid of just one your very own village idiot BigAl you would have much more meaningful discussion here. And this thread wouldn't be even half as long.
Hugh Robjohns is a good man. You listen to him.

O.K. I'm gonna call it a day.




Brilliant!!!! Post of the year!

--------------------
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent."


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Marky]
      #169678 - 18/08/05 09:50 PM
back to the goldring, I got a Goldring Erica cartirage for my thompson record deck a few years back, sounds quite good!

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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Chickenjohn]
      #169684 - 18/08/05 09:59 PM
Quote Chickenjohn:

Just to clarify Hugh, I don;t mean "better" as in more technically accurate, but better as in "sounds better, more enjoyable" which vinyl is.




To you, possibly. You are expressing a purely subjective opinion -- not that there is anything wrong in that -- but you should make that fact clear.

Quote:

I don't think its possible to technically accurately reproduce the sound of a rock band




Obviously. Just as a film can not capture every detail and nuance of real life. Both 'records' and 'films' are attempts to capture the essence of something and portray that in an aesthetically pleasing way -- with a combination of art and science.

The point is that once that essence has been captured, the delivery medium shouldn't change it... and vinyl records clearly do. A 16mm print from a 70mm master may be perfectly acceptable to watch -- enjoyable even, but I don't think anyone would try to claim it was 'better' than the 70mm original -- either technically or 'looks better, more enjoyable'. I think that is quite an appropriate comparison... but the debate will rumble on...

Quote:

But Highway to Hell DOES sound fantastic on vinyl!!!!




Sounds great on my CD too Meridian 508 --> Benchmark DAC 1 --> Bryston 4B -->PMC IB1 --> lug'oles

Hugh

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__
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169688 - 18/08/05 10:07 PM
Tangent - I remember seeing AC/DC supporting The Who at wembley, years ago. They had stated they would play louder than Concord taking off. Half way through their set they lost the main PA. And i was half way back and could still here them off the stage. Do you think they would make good mastering engineers?


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Stan



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Posts: 1311
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169689 - 18/08/05 10:08 PM
Thanks Mr. Robjohns - you worked well hard and it made for a great read.

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Brian Moynihan
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Joined: 14/11/02
Posts: 677
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: jerry123]
      #169694 - 18/08/05 10:14 PM
Quote jerry123:

One more thing, drag a nail across a record and then, do the same to the CD version of the release. Let me know which one sounds better then.




jerry that's a very good point, and interestingly connects to Steve Albini's comments about mastering to tape over any other format, for it's longevity. It is definitely a concern, the question of whether the digital format you record to now will be functional in years to come. I've heard people say, yeah, chances are whatever OS and hardware we're all using in 20 years, it will still be backwards compatible with CD roms containing wavs/aiffs but backwards compatibility means nothing when the disc is unreadable. Reel to reel can be anywhere from a sticky tape that makes muffling sounds and jams a lot right up to a perfect master with the odd imperfection or background hiss. The important thing being that when it's partially, or significantly damaged, something's still readable. With CD and DVD, nothing is readable when the most minor damage occurs.

And I should point out to everyone, that this is also the reason why you get people who "collect" old vinyl, going right back to the first half of the 20th century. It has actually lasted, and some old records can be in incredibly good playable condition. I wonder if people in the year 2080 will be "collecting" old CD albums, or more to the point, will even 1 of those CDs be playable, and will there be any devices to play them on?


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169697 - 18/08/05 10:16 PM
Quote ow:

Surely the point is that we generally like the sound of analogue recordings because they are in fact "coloured" by the recording process itself, and the holy grail of making digital sound like analogue is actually a quest to mimic those "colourations".

Why are we trying to mimic something that doesn't sound 'better'




Why paint a watercolour when you can take a photograph?


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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169698 - 18/08/05 10:19 PM
Quote Steve Albini:

(773) 539-2555
www.electrical.com

I can waive my fee.
But you still have to pay for studio time.
Business is business, you know.




Could I just say... that is the top answer to a question this year.

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PWGLE



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Brian Moynihan]
      #169699 - 18/08/05 10:20 PM
Imagine a place far away, the physics laboritory! where there is no air resitance! etc!

In theory you can drill a 2mm hole in a cd, and it will still play!

and why won't that westlife cd I got free in the newspaper stop working? its been scratched to death with a x-acto blade, and a hole drilled and it still works!

but my limited edition Biffy Clyro, well that got a tiny weany scratch! and it was brown bread!

hehe I own some limited press vinyl by babyshamles (yeah mock me) anyway its got one of the worst cutting imperfects i've ever seen in my life!

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MadManDan



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The Byre]
      #169704 - 18/08/05 10:36 PM
Quote The Byre:

I REALLY miss having 12" by 12" front and back and a sleave to let my creative graphic side run riot...I have just finished a CD cover and that is such a fiddley, stupid little format. It is very difficult to make a statement on a 15cm square.



Totally agreed. Maybe 12" graphics (just the cover, sleeves and books, no record) could be sold in cd stores. Seriously, that's why I still have my old albums even when I own it on CD.
I love the sound of vynil. Don't get me wrong, But...
The CD, and now DVD, Are better only in the respect that you gaurantee the product. It is far more affordable to buy a digital playback device, and potentially deliver what the producer had in mind; than to buy an equivalent quality turntable, arm, cartridge and preamp.
Let's face it money is a big factor for everybody. If music can be properly listened to for less money, then we have more aggregate enjoyment. Digital mediums are also a heck of a lot more portable and shock resistant than lp.
Not to mention allowing lows to be panned to one side if you wanted....
or 5.1 capabilities

Finally, yes it is a shame people don't use higher resolution to put music on their iPods etc but that's ok.
Keep easily exchanged file formats low fidelity. That might actually encourage people to go and buy the high fidelity version.
' Nuff ranting
DAn
PS Mr Albini Not being starstruck or anything, but it is cool seeing you post in this forum. You're, like, talked about all the time here.

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Gear list: If you can't find it, grind it

Edited by MadManDan (18/08/05 10:38 PM)


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MadManDan



Joined: 13/09/04
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Loc: Across the pond....New Yawk
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #169718 - 18/08/05 11:05 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

One other thing. I was much taken with Steve Albini's comment that he'll track and mix an album in 4 - 10 days... And a zillion overdubs of every part, all comped to smithereens, because of course track count was essentially limitless, "so they could".....Oh for the luxury of being able to say "you can record it again if you like, but you'll have to lose the previous take"...!


Steve great point. Maybe it’s time for the engineer to make a stand. Perhaps talk about your philosophy before tracking. If you can’t get it in 3 takes forget it!!

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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169720 - 18/08/05 11:06 PM
I think we're all comparing apples to pears and [ ****** ] here, there are a whole number of things that come into the sound of a record. I have every respect for Hugh's technical knowledge on the subject and like Hugh I wouldn't begin to question the technical quality of a good digital system over any analog one. If we were trying to capture some audio for a forensic purpose, I would choose digital every single time. But is this debate about quality?

When we're talking about the difference between tape, vinyl and cd, we are confusing so many different stages in recording. I'll explain what I mean - personally, I think that tape is more flattering and dare I say "tolerant" when we track onto it. The sound of 16 analog tracks mixing together and playing directly out in a good monitoring system is fantastic. But when it comes to the final playback of a song, I think a good quality digital master can sound great, there's no need to add more noise and artifacts through vinyl.

I'm not going to get into technical discussions of why multitrack sounds better on tape, I no longer involve technical theory since I realised that it is a subjective and "artistic" or aesthetic difference. The fact that each track laid down on tape has it's own bit of softening hiss, warble, pitch fluctuation, crosstalk, saturation, filtering....I believe is precisely the reason why the combined mix sounds more pleasing to some of us. This is exactly what the perfect, forensic digital recording system does not offer. Which is why I would not track and mix entirely digitally and then naively dump the song to tape to "improve it", but I would track and mix entirely on tape and then master to 24/96 digital audio. Along the way you've added exactly what makes tape sound flattering, and the final song is going to play that back with perfect fidelity.

So going back to my point earlier, I like vinyl, but when I say that, I'm usually meaning my original vinyl copies of records that were already recorded and mixed on tape in the 70s, like Stevie Wonder. Vinyl copies of records that people make currently, mastering from Pro Tools to both CD and Vinyl, I probably couldn't care less about, because the source music is lacking that "wow and flutter" charm it might have had if recorded and mixed on tape.

To summarise, I'm disagreeing with the initial "Steve Albini" post here, in that I think going to vinyl from an entirely digitally recorded album is the stuff of nonsense, vinyl can only really be wonderful if it's come from a great analog recording. Pro-Tools to vinyl is just a clean digital recording with some pops and clicks added. When I make vinyl of my own music, it's for no other reason than that some buyers like the large tactile format, the big artwork, and the fact they can spin it forwards, backwards, 33rpm, 45rpm any way they like on their decks. Maybe Toerag studios can rightly justify mastering for vinyl, but most other people are doing it for the aesthetic. And recording digitally but adding "valve" or "warmifying" plugins is asinine.

p.s. btw, clearly there hasn't been any shyness in people posting to this thread


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Brian Moynihan
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169725 - 18/08/05 11:20 PM
Just realised that my last comment sounded like I disagreed generally with Steve Albini's comments, actually I go with 99% of what he says in the article, the comments about Star Wars are utterly spot on. I just think there are people who might take his comment about vinyl as meaning "if I chuck my totally virtual Ableton Live & Reaktor songs to vinyl, they will miraculously sound awesome", and that's clearly not his philosophy when you look at the Electrical setup. Hence my post above about separating the concept of recording from the final playback medium. It's a bit like something I brought up before on the SOS forum - just because you can get software instruments that "approximate" some original analog synthesizer, e.g. Roland SH101, doesn't mean you'll make anything with the charm of say, a vintage Human League record. The moment you separate the hiss, the PSU hum, the detuning from the sound of that 101, you've lost half of what made it sound good. Native instruments may make some great software, but christ am I sick of hearing demo after demo that sound like bit perfect presets that have never once moved air.


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MadManDan



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Loc: Across the pond....New Yawk
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169732 - 18/08/05 11:35 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

...In effect, each magnetic particle corresponds to a single bit in a digital system. magnetic tape is, inherently, a digital medium and exhibits the same quantisation effects as digital audio systems. This is also the reason why very slow speeds or very narrow tracks in analogue tape recorders are inherently noisier than fast and wide tracks. Fewer magnetic particles -- fewer bits -- higher quantisation noise.Hugh




Hugh
First let me double what Ow said about kitchen debates with wifey being more pleasant than challenging you but....
It was always my understanding that the reason tape sounds hissy is because of its' friction with the heads. And that higher speed recording only "sounds" less hissy because the hiss is at a higher frequency.
Respectfully, DAn

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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: MadManDan]
      #169761 - 19/08/05 12:19 AM
So, it's rumoured that Steve Albini is not Steve Albini, as so reported in the now "disappeared" thread in community. Does it matter? Not a jot now.

Cd or vinyl?..... Minidisc foooorevaaaaaah!!!!!!

When you've not been in the record room for a couple of days, and you walk in with keen ears, and the smell of vinyl spanning the last 60 years or so wafts gently through the room evoking nostalgic memories. Thoughts turn to music.
You carefully tease that long unlistened album from it's sleeve, a gentle breeze and shafts of sunlight flicker through the swaying trees outside the window, enhancing the anticipation.... The powers on, carefully you place the record on the platter, taking care not to get the pads of your fingers on the delicate black surface, that almost inaudible sound as just a hairsbreadth from the platters surface you drop it, it's a clean stylus, your hand is poised, and with your deftest touch you place the needle on the record, a tiny crackle, the gentlest bump, nothing can detract from your anticipation as the music begins.

It's a good thing a lot of good music made it to vinyl.

As much as i love vinyl..... I like great music better.

Sings "... and that's what it's all about. Oi".


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Digital Emotions
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169797 - 19/08/05 01:18 AM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:


Obviously. Just as a film can not capture every detail and nuance of real life. Both 'records' and 'films' are attempts to capture the essence of something and portray that in an aesthetically pleasing way -- with a combination of art and science.

The point is that once that essence has been captured, the delivery medium shouldn't change it... and vinyl records clearly do. A 16mm print from a 70mm master may be perfectly acceptable to watch -- enjoyable even, but I don't think anyone would try to claim it was 'better' than the 70mm original -- either technically or 'looks better, more enjoyable'. I think that is quite an appropriate comparison... but the debate will rumble on...





Yes, I wanna rumble.
I think that's a very good way to understand issue by drawing parallels.
It is always easier to reach an agreement about picture quality then sound quality.

You said that if motion picture was shot on 65mm negative and then two release prints
were struck, one 70mm and one 16mm. 70mm print always will be superior. I myself
and everybody who is anybody will agree with that. It is true.

However let's continue with film analogy.

Hugh, you know a lot about media production. You sure heard about original Technicolor
dye-imbibition process (sometimes called dye-transfer but this term can be confused with
different process).
Dye-imbibition was expensive, labor intensive, slow and required highly trained personnel.
However, in 60s and 70s dye-imbibition prints were of such a good quality that no modern
technology can recreate it. And I'm not talking about that distinctive reach Technicolor look.
I'm saying they are better. Even today those prints look better then new prints
struck from original negative.
Better from everyones point of view.
From cinematographers and lab technicians to Joe Six Pack.
But that's not all.
In 60s, Italian Technicolor lab came up with process called Techniscope.
In Techniscope frame of 35mm film was only 2 sprockets high, exactly half size of
CinemaScope. However release prints were blown up to CinemaScope specifications.
Techniscope prints looked better then prints produced by process which is now employed
everywhere (I'm not talking about Digital Intermediate here).
Better I mean better for everybody. You could ask thousands of people for opinion and
everybody would say the same, that half frame Techniscope blown up to CinemaScope is better
than straight CinemaScope contact print. OK maybe BigAl will have different opinion,
but that's another story.
Contact print is more faithful reproduction, dye-imbibition is not, it is better.

If you have friends who can screen for you at least one reel of original Technicolor print.
I strongly recommend that you do have a look and compare it to what you can watch
in multiplexes. Or you can ask around about large format photographs printed
by dye-imbibition process on Kodak materials. It should give you some idea about Technicolor.

Little more information here. There were three dye-imbibition Technicolor labs.
One in California, one in England and one in Italy. Few English prints I've seen were ugly,
American were very good and Italian were fantastic.



Dear Hugh, I have the utmost respect for you, we all do.
But at this point in time I feel qualified to give you advice.



Start your next day with a nice joint, it might give you fresh outlook on life.


Digi Em.


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feline1
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Brian Moynihan]
      #169822 - 19/08/05 05:45 AM
Quote The Bob Campbell:


Why paint a watercolour when you can take a photograph?




That's a bit of a strawman though -
if you think about it, a photograph doesn't look identical to what you see if you just look at something with your eyes.
And in fact, a good oil painting can often tell you more about light that a photograph of the same thing.
Also, don't forget that Sapphire and Steel episode where thre was a man with no face....

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The Byre]
      #169831 - 19/08/05 07:24 AM
Quote The Byre:

And another thing . . .

I REALLY miss having 12" by 12" front and back and a sleave to let my creative graphic side run riot.

I have just finished a CD cover and that is such a fiddley, stupid little format. It is very difficult to make a statement on a 15cm square.





Agreed! Have you tried badges? Even worse. And what about the new coin competition??


What an amazing topic! Well done, Steve . . .

I'll have to add my Ha'pence worth this evening. I have some building-work to do now. But vinyl does sound fabulous with good kit.

TTFN,

G

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Jupiter_4
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169842 - 19/08/05 08:09 AM
A few people have talked about pops and crackles with vinyl; on a good turntable/arm/cartridge combination there will not be any or they will be surpressed. T/Ts have come a long way since the early 90s when someone here, I think, said that they stopped progressing. If you are in London you should visit the best turntable shop in the UK - it is called Walrus and you can check out their vinyl stuff here http://www.walrus.co.uk/vinyl/vinyl.htm They even have some famous musician and singer clients!


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BigAl
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169843 - 19/08/05 08:13 AM
Welcome (or is that goodbye) to the forum of opinions.

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BigAl
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotions]
      #169844 - 19/08/05 08:16 AM
QUOTE:"OK maybe BigAl will have different opinion,
but that's another story."

Not this time.

Is this shoot BigAl day?

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #169849 - 19/08/05 08:27 AM
Quote:

The Byre:
And another thing . . .

I REALLY miss having 12" by 12" front and back and a sleave to let my creative graphic side run riot.

I have just finished a CD cover and that is such a fiddley, stupid little format. It is very difficult to make a statement on a 15cm square.




It's even less fun if you're working on a normal 12cm square CD booklet.

And and allowing a little tolerance for the printer takes off another 0.5mm. Then there's taking into account the number of pages and paper weight. That was always such fun And working for a cheapskate who thought that 450 words per page still allowed a reasonable font size made for some animated discussions! Manually kerning pairs of letters and playing with the justification parameters would often make the difference between blocks of text fitting or not. Ah, happy days


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BigAl
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169850 - 19/08/05 08:27 AM
QUOTE:"O.K. I'm gonna call it a day."

Is that because not everyone agrees that vinyl is best?





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__
Who's never been here


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #169851 - 19/08/05 08:28 AM
nobodys allowed to talk to you today, we all had a mail about it from SA, sorry man. Have a nice weekend.


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Stephen Bennett
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169864 - 19/08/05 08:53 AM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote Stephen Bennett:

I have a lot of new vinyl and it's almost always better than the CD version.




But how do you define better? You clearly don't mean better in any technial, objective sense, because we can show that vinyl technology certainly isn't better than digital technology.

So you must be talking about subjective preferences... and that is a no-win argument isn't it.
hugh




I did put 'IMHO' all over my posting.

Quote:

Just to clarify Hugh, I don;t mean "better" as in more technically accurate, but better as in "sounds better, more enjoyable" which vinyl is.




What he said.

Regards

Stephen (Listening to 'Hail to the Thief' - on vinyl.)

--------------------
New Henry Fool album (Feat: Phil Manzenera and Jarrod Gosling of iMonster.)
New Tim Bowness album (Feat: Steven Wilson, Pat Mastelotto.)

Edited by Stephen Bennett (19/08/05 08:58 AM)


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: MadManDan]
      #169872 - 19/08/05 09:04 AM
Quote MadManDan:

It was always my understanding that the reason tape sounds hissy is because of its' friction with the heads. And that higher speed recording only "sounds" less hissy because the hiss is at a higher frequency.
Respectfully, Dan




'fraid not Dan. Friction has nothing to do with it. Tape sounds hissy because of the random alignment of magnetic particles. It is less hissy at higher speeds because more magnetic particles pass under the head per unit time than at slower speeds. The same is true of wider tracks -- which is why Mr Albini prefer 16 tracks on two inch rather than 24. Its a lot quieter!

Hugh


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RegressiveRock
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169887 - 19/08/05 09:31 AM
Quote ow:

nobodys allowed to talk to you today, we all had a mail about it from SA, sorry man. Have a nice weekend.




Ehhh???

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__
Who's never been here


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: RegressiveRock]
      #169890 - 19/08/05 09:36 AM
forgot the


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Arse Bandit



Joined: 17/09/01
Posts: 2795
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Back_AndToTheLeft]
      #169897 - 19/08/05 09:45 AM
Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

Quote The real musiclover:

Quote Jon Dickinson:



As for vinyl being better than CD, I prefer to concentrate on the emotion of the music




I agree with that bit.




Music doesn't have emotion, people do. Music has 'intensity' - all other responses are due to learned references, as Eduard Hanslick said back in 1854.




OK, how about 'the emotion(s) I experience when listening to, or thinking about, the music'. Pedant!


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James PerrettModerator



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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169898 - 19/08/05 09:45 AM
Wow - what a thread...

The first time I did a vinyl/CD comparison back in the 80's I was surprised to find that the vinyl version sounded sharper then the CD. That was probably entirely down to the arm/cartridge that I was using at the time - a Decca ffss.

With a more conventional arm/cartridge combination there is far less difference - in fact, to my ears, there is more of a difference in sound between cartridges than there is between vinyl and CD.

The other major advantage that CD has is convenience. If you want to play vinyl then you have to have somewhere firm and level to put the turntable - any you can't move it while the record is playing. CD's can be played in a much wider range of situations with no loss of sound quality. CD's are also easy to cue up and you're not necessarily stuck with playing the tracks in the same order each time.

Music buyers aren't particularly interested in sound quality but they are aware of blemishes. They don't like surface noise, scratches, hiss or drop outs. The average music buyer isn't a hifi fan so their record/tape players aren't going to deal with these blemishes in a subtle way. They don't mind the lack of detail that you get with mp3 because the bass thump and treble zing are still there and that's what's important. If you can hear the beat it doesn't matter whether you can hear every other note with perfect clarity.

Cheers.

James.

PS - to the Goldring Lenco owner - you'll be OK with most cartridges that have half inch centre fixing holes. A Shure M75ED would have been a good match back in the 70's - I think the Stanton 680 was the nearest equivalent. There seems to have been a resurgence of interest in those old Lenco turntables recently.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: RegressiveRock]
      #169899 - 19/08/05 09:45 AM
Apologies (not) for absence.

Just in case anyone was thinking of dusting off their autograph books for a little fawning adoration, the very entertaining incarnation of "Steve Albini" who so wowed everyone with his star presence yesterday won't be joining us today. Neither will his associate, "Digital Emotions". One of their little friends "Digi Em" is still able to visit - for now - if he wants to. Just in case he wishes to comment - or leave the appropriately grovelling apology that I hope he is man enough to write!

Another of their party, a Mr ChickenJohn, also is unavailable for comment at present.

IP addresses are wonderful things when it comes to curing sufferers of internet schizophrenia.



On a more serious note, however amusing it appears to be to impersonate a recognised industry figure and stir up a little debate in his name, it is unsporting, of dubious legality, and against the forum rules which you agreed to when you signed up. Such behaviour is potentially very damaging for the reputations both of everyone involved and the wider forum and it's not something that will be tolerated.

A joke's a joke, and your very gorgeous, and slightly fluffy, moderators like a laugh just as much as the next sad, light-starved studio addict but when the joke has potential to damage the reputation and legal standing of this forum and, by association, our favourite magazine, it ceases to be funny. People instigating similar games can expect, without warning, to feel the gentle caress of the door hitting them on the arse on their way out!


That's it from me. Back on yer 'eads.


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169900 - 19/08/05 09:46 AM
Glad you posted that. I was just about ready to top myself.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9315
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #169901 - 19/08/05 09:49 AM
Just in case anyone's still not sure, the Steve Albini ID that generated this thread was a hoax...

2 members have been banned as a result.

Wilful impersonation , with intent to deceive, of Anyone, never mind an industry "name" is decidedly unsporting and contrary to both spirit and letter of the forum regulations.



Max

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Wurlitzer]
      #169915 - 19/08/05 10:01 AM
Phew!

In total agreement.

They are all sounds at the end of the day and some may be better than other in different scenarios regardless of whether it's 'real' or 'fake'.

There are pieces I would love to do with a real string quartet and that's when the sampler let's you get that authenticity without having to hire a SQ. I had a DX21 many years ago and used sounds to attempt at being authentic (at times), but hearing them now, they don't sound too great.
I heard a 1970s disco song on the radio yesterday with the string machine. It sounds a bit like real strings, but really it's not. It's just a sound which works in the context.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: ]
      #169938 - 19/08/05 10:41 AM
Quote 0VU:

Quote:

The Byre:
And another thing . . .

I REALLY miss having 12" by 12" front and back and a sleave to let my creative graphic side run riot.

I have just finished a CD cover and that is such a fiddley, stupid little format. It is very difficult to make a statement on a 15cm square.




It's even less fun if you're working on a normal 12cm square CD booklet.

And and allowing a little tolerance for the printer takes off another 0.5mm. Then there's taking into account the number of pages and paper weight. That was always such fun And working for a cheapskate who thought that 450 words per page still allowed a reasonable font size made for some animated discussions! Manually kerning pairs of letters and playing with the justification parameters would often make the difference between blocks of text fitting or not. Ah, happy days




The best are the DIY layouts! "I've got a friend who teaches graphics and art at the college . . ." is a phrase I get to hear very often. Producers love to hear "We've done the layout already . . ." from band members, who then produce bits of paper from their pockets.

"What IS a pdf file, exactly?" always seems a good way to get a party going.

No, I'm all for CDs, but they should be at least 15" across, so that my inner Picasso has a chance to live!

On the impersonation front: why not have open IDs on this forum? Then I wouldn't have to tried to persuade you to use SPL mastering kit

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The Byre]
      #169959 - 19/08/05 11:12 AM
The size thing is a shame.
Albums could actually be tiny these days, but the 12" gatefold sleeve with some good artwork/art direction is somethig which is sadly missing from CDs.
Jewel cases and all the hassle which goes with it is crap.

Album covers were part of the CD from an artistic point of view. I don't have that feeling with CDs.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Tomás Mulcahy
active member


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #169963 - 19/08/05 11:15 AM
Hmm. I was thinking "Steve" was not as eloquent as he usually is. Of course, I still went ahead with a rant on the subject of vinyl

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt


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Brian Moynihan
member


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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #169975 - 19/08/05 11:33 AM
Fairly obvious from the get go that "Steve" a forumite, still an interesting debate nonetheless.

Maybe the answer is CDs released inside massive vinyl double gatefold packs, that way we get the artwork back again


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Scottdru
Cool Dude


Joined: 17/12/02
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #169994 - 19/08/05 11:56 AM
Hehe . . . so size really DOES matter then!

I've also noticed that it's not as much fun to play along to the record brushes on CD packaging as it is to play the brushes on an LP sleeve. It's just not the same.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?


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Scottdru
Cool Dude


Joined: 17/12/02
Posts: 4392
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: ]
      #170006 - 19/08/05 12:14 PM
Quote 0VU:


and your very gorgeous, and slightly fluffy, moderators




So should we call you Fluff Daddy, then? Or will F. Diddy do?

Quote:


People instigating similar games can expect, without warning, to feel the gentle caress of the door hitting them on the arse on their way out!




Indeed. Don't let it hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?


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R. Spisketts



Joined: 29/01/05
Posts: 1319
Loc: Southsea
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170018 - 19/08/05 12:36 PM
This has been such a long thread, and I'm a bit tired and confused... so was that the real Steve Lillywhite or not??

--------------------
Funk this, arm half due wink a trump


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: ]
      #170045 - 19/08/05 01:24 PM
Quote 0VU:

Apologies (not) for absence.
IP addresses are wonderful things when it comes to curing sufferers of internet schizophrenia.




Yep IP's are and IP pools are useful, but I would expect most users here to have dynamic ip addresses, so you can only really block them until they re-establish there connections.

Laurence

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Stephen Bennett
member


Joined: 14/10/02
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Loc: England
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Brian Moynihan]
      #170054 - 19/08/05 01:40 PM
Quote The Bob Campbell:


Maybe the answer is CDs released inside massive vinyl double gatefold packs, that way we get the artwork back again




I vaguely remember that there was some talk at the time of development of the CD being larger, perhaps even a full 12 incher. That would have been nice - but more expensive I guess.

I too miss the artwork. Having said that it's even worse on my iPod!



Does anyone else think that the plastic CD tray is possibly one of the the worse piece of design on the planet (after those 'wing pull' cartons that deposit the contents all over you)? They break, crack and you either have to bend the CD to get them out or the centre hubs are so loose that the CD slips around and gets scratched.



Regards

Stephen

--------------------
New Henry Fool album (Feat: Phil Manzenera and Jarrod Gosling of iMonster.)
New Tim Bowness album (Feat: Steven Wilson, Pat Mastelotto.)


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #170057 - 19/08/05 01:45 PM
By getting the dynamic IP address, you can find out the ISP. From their records, they can tell you who was connected at the given times.
Then you send the heavies round to their house...

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Spyder
member


Joined: 28/01/04
Posts: 444
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170088 - 19/08/05 02:43 PM
Do you mean my "My Sound File" review by Steve Albini was a fake?!
That's was going on my album cover!

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=167573&page=0&v iew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#167573

(I'd got wind of the wind-up actually, ......... but it would have been nice ........ hero of mine )

--------------------
www.wildhope.com - pike in a lilypond


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10646
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Stephen Bennett]
      #170091 - 19/08/05 02:46 PM
Quote Stephen Bennett:

Quote The Bob Campbell:


Maybe the answer is CDs released inside massive vinyl double gatefold packs, that way we get the artwork back again




I vaguely remember that there was some talk at the time of development of the CD being larger, perhaps even a full 12 incher. That would have been nice - but more expensive I guess.






I seem to remember CD's being a spin-off from Philip's Laserdisc development so there certainly were 12" CD-like discs in the past.

Cheers.

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Digital Emotion



Joined: 09/08/05
Posts: 219
Loc: Brooklyn NY USA
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170113 - 19/08/05 03:22 PM

My sincere apologies and pledge


I would like to take this opportunity to extend my sincerest apologies to all of you
who were inconvenienced and disturbed by "Vinyl is better than anything else" thread.

My apologies go especially to the forumites who engaged in personal communications
with "Steve Albini" and those who sent "him" Personal Messages
(which I BTW deleted before giving "Steve Albini" away for others to enjoy.

I am taking this matter seriously, and so I have launched a comprehensive review
of my online practices and behavior to prevent similar incidents from occurring in the future.

I will assure you that I will reform myself in order to comply with spirit and letter of
SOS Forum regulations. I will do so while fully drawing upon the lessons that can be learnt.
I will deliver on my promise, because I know that’s the only way to restore confidence.


Yours cordially.
Digital Emotions.


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
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Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotion]
      #170121 - 19/08/05 03:43 PM
It's your lucky day.



--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Jupiter_4
new member


Joined: 13/11/01
Posts: 368
Loc: London
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: James Perrett]
      #170123 - 19/08/05 03:48 PM
Quote James Perrett:

Wow - what a thread...


With a more conventional arm/cartridge combination there is far less difference - in fact, to my ears, there is more of a difference in sound between cartridges than there is between vinyl and CD.

The other major advantage that CD has is convenience. If you want to play vinyl then you have to have somewhere firm and level to put the turntable - any you can't move it while the record is playing. CD's can be played in a much wider range of situations with no loss of sound quality. CD's are also easy to cue up and you're not necessarily stuck with playing the tracks in the same order each time.


James.






James, at the higher end of turntables ie Clearaudio, Wilson Benesch, Nottingham, Amazon etc, there is quite a lot of difference in turntables and arms as well of course as cartridges and I agree less so at the Rega level. CDs and amps also need careful placement to get the best out of them. CD players in particular sound quite different on a glass rack than a wooden rack, glass giving the CDP a more 'forward' presentation with more pronounced leading edges. Dominic


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #170125 - 19/08/05 03:50 PM


Is it just me or does it sound like he's taking the piss!

If you're not I'll leave you to 'review' your online practises!

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
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Loc: The King's Height
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #170126 - 19/08/05 03:53 PM
QUOTE:"Is it just me or does it sound like he's taking the piss! "

Who are we talking about?

Dig Em or the glass & wood thing?

It's that time......Friday....nearly five-to-five......



--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Digital Emotion



Joined: 09/08/05
Posts: 219
Loc: Brooklyn NY USA
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170131 - 19/08/05 03:58 PM

Open letter to OVU


Hi OVU.
Was my apology groveling enough for you?

Let's talk about yesterdays incident. Shall we?

Quote OVU:


IP addresses are wonderful things when it comes to curing sufferers of internet schizophrenia.




IP addresses are amazing.
But I can tell you about device that will knock your socks off. Telephone!!!
There was no reason for you to stay in your office well past midnight yesterday.
O.K. it's none of my business really what you do after midnight. I cannot be as eloquent here as real SA.
Just think about it. You could sort it out in a minute by calling Electrical Audio.
Come on, I even gave you the phone number.

Quote OVU:


Such behavior [impersonation] is potentially very damaging for the reputations both of everyone involved and the wider forum and it's not something that will be tolerated.




Maybe it can be "potentially very damaging", but this particular instance, was it?
If anything, SA got some free publicity and possibly a couple of clients.
Some forumites realized how accessible SA is. Just pick up the phone.
If some guy can convince his band members to cough up as little as 3000 quid each, they can pay for airline tickets accommodation and studio time. And be recorded by The Legend, on Legendary Equipment. Don't you think it could be inspiring and maybe even change someone's life? And you banned me from forum for doing that?
Seriously guys, it is perfect time to take advantage of amazing exchange rate and invest your hard-earned cash
into American Economy.


Quote OVU:


... but when the joke has potential to damage the reputation and legal standing of this forum and, by association, our favorite magazine, it ceases to be funny.




OK, I understand that, and I also have concern for SOS (forum and mag).
But please tell me OVU, why you still didn't edit the first post? Is it too hard for you to type something like:

Achtung Baby!
Steve Albini ID that generated this thread was a hoax.
This post is not associated with real Steve Albini the owner and recording engineer of Electrical Audio.
This thread however, was preserved for it's extraordinary historical and cultural values.


or at least:

Moderators of this forum did not have the opportunity to confirm identity of this user.

You could do that long time ago without checking any facts.

Also I protected this forum from further attacks which could've been damaging.
Try to impersonate someone now. No chance. Why? Because this forum was immunized. I did it.



And also, be honest here. You started to do something only when I myself, surprised by some forumites naivety and mods inaction posted "Who wants to be next Steve Albini?" thread in Open Mic section (this thread was deleted by mods) with clue to "his" username and password. ChickenJohn (not a chicken) was the first one to get the clue, then he edited original post a little to remove the clue. But I have to tell you it was still pretty obvious to anyone but the most naive. Then he decided to give some inspiring advice to his fellow musicians and then pass "Steve Albini" around. BTW ChickenJohn said very early in the thread that SA doesn't sound like real one, but he didn't know that for sure at the time. The truth would come out anyway without you doing anything. It would still be nice though if you'd edited the very first post and stuck a warning on it.

Fact: I posted 4 messages in original thread and one in Open Mic, ChicknJohn did the rest.

I guess you read my(SA) posts yesterday, did it look like I was going to do it again? I already gave up the password without any motivation to do so. Why on earth did you decide to remove Digital Emotions ID? Did it make you feel like a fecking authority figure?
And after you canceled "Steve Albini", for what reason you banned ChickenJohn?

Also I don't want you to think that this impersonation was premeditated.
I just wanted to start a thread after reading the interview, and then I thought, what if SA himself will ask the question?
To register new name I needed some information which to my surprise was available online and it took me 2 seconds
to get it. I bet that many SOS readers also didn't know but now know how accessible and affordable that studio is.
BTW line of text in the SOS about SA waiving his fee was as honest as my impersonation.

I admit, what I did was wrong. But you guys also positioned yourselfs as assholes.

However, we all have to agree on at least two things:
1 All of us here are pretty good people.
2 It is good to play music.

Cordially yours.
Digital Emotions.

P.S. If anyones feelings were hurt, I am sorry.


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotion]
      #170134 - 19/08/05 03:59 PM
But mate, it was a pair of whale bollox of a gag.


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #170135 - 19/08/05 04:02 PM
Dig Em!

But the glass thing sounds interesting, when I had the laser replaced on my Marantz CD63KI the guy in the shop was telling me all these things I could do to improve the sound even more, such as bolt MDF inside the case, and make a new base to make it more rigid. and yes glass was mentioned!

To be honest, when I got the Marantz because it was the best sounding cd player out of the 20 I auditioned in the price range... though it wasn't the best as far as spec's go!

Sound far more important, than specs!

hehe like all these studio owners with these great speakers, and all the rest of it, and then they don't bother acoustically treating the room, or they don't know how to make a mic cable!

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Digital Emotion



Joined: 09/08/05
Posts: 219
Loc: Brooklyn NY USA
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: __]
      #170138 - 19/08/05 04:09 PM
Quote ow:

But mate, it was a pair of whale bollox of a gag.




Could you be so kind to translate that?

English is not my first language.

Digi Em.


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steveman



Joined: 17/03/02
Posts: 1142
Loc: London - UK
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Stephen Bennett]
      #170140 - 19/08/05 04:12 PM
Quote:

Does anyone else think that the plastic CD tray is possibly one of the the worse piece of design on the planet (after those 'wing pull' cartons that deposit the contents all over you)? They break, crack and you either have to bend the CD to get them out or the centre hubs are so loose that the CD slips around and gets scratched.




Yes, I loathe them. The number of CD cases I have w/o the the front 'cover'... (which ALWAYS break when you drop them).

BTW vinyl DOES sound better than CD Took me a long time to succumb to CD, and when I got my 1st CD player I found I couldn't listen to CDs on the same evening after listening to LPs.
Just bought a Musical Fidelity Phono Preamp off Ebay, been playing a few LPs for the 1st time in a long time. They definitely have something.

You mentioned you buy modern releases on vinyl, where can I get them from? I've not really looked into it.

Quote:

Sony are in the process of rolling out Blu-Ray discs, with a 50gb capacity on one DVD-sized optical disk. Am I the only one who thinks that hard disk and flash based storage is only a sideways step? Why are there not in the pipeline, new "Sony Walkmans", that use Blu-Ray for storage?



Because portable MP3 players already store up to 60Gb, by the time Blu-Ray is affordable capacity will be 80-120Gb. 16Gb Compact Flash is available (not cheap of course), and there's no sign of a slowdown in the speed of development.

Quote:

With 50gb per disk, you could store 200 albums in CD quality with lossless compression, or alternatively 50 albums with greatly improved fidelity like 24/96.



You can already store uncompressed audio on many MP3 players, so there's not necessarily any reason to compromise.

Quote:


.....lurking beneath the differences between the example above and the music business is, just that, 'business'. a stagnated recording technology or format delivery market is unacceptable in economic terms, there can be no growth without innovation, and if corporations like to do anything it's grow!

so what fascinates me about vinyl (and old recoding equipment) is that it's fetishisation is no less than a political act in this global economy of unrestrained corporate growth, cynical engineered obsolescence and aggressive marketing and consumer bullying.

recycling technology, stepping off the innovation timeline because you like things the way they are at a given point and denying the market it's supposed improvements regains a little of our autonomy, empowers the individual beyond the status of passive consumer and ultimately encourages a less monochrome cultural space, which ultimately is where music must belong




Very well put.

My (18 month old) digital camera seriously misbehaved last week (sadly at the Big Chill). A friend who was with me said 'don't bother getting it fixed, just get a refurb off Ebay'. While he was technically correct in suggesting this would be cheaper, I was just horrified that even a £200 camera is regarded as disposable now.


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Marky
posting's fun


Joined: 30/06/04
Posts: 560
Loc: Boston, MA
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #170145 - 19/08/05 04:15 PM
Alls well that ends well, though I'm not entirely sure why JC was banned.

I think we should ban Big Al....



--------------------
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent."


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
Posts: 2682
Loc: The King's Height
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotion]
      #170148 - 19/08/05 04:18 PM
Get a life.

Falsifying your ID and planting clues to aid in your capture.
You'll go far.



--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
Posts: 2682
Loc: The King's Height
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Marky]
      #170149 - 19/08/05 04:19 PM
And for what reason?

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotion]
      #170150 - 19/08/05 04:20 PM
Quote Digi Em:

Quote ow:

But mate, it was a pair of whale bollox of a gag.




Could you be so kind to translate that?

English is not my first language.

Digi Em.




A gag of gigantic proportions.


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Marky
posting's fun


Joined: 30/06/04
Posts: 560
Loc: Boston, MA
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #170151 - 19/08/05 04:21 PM

For clogging up the forum with too many opinions.

--------------------
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent."


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
Posts: 2682
Loc: The King's Height
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Marky]
      #170153 - 19/08/05 04:25 PM
Clogging up a forum of opinions with opinions.

Fancy that!

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Marky
posting's fun


Joined: 30/06/04
Posts: 560
Loc: Boston, MA
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #170157 - 19/08/05 04:36 PM

Let's just say the forum isn't a soap box just for your opinions on everything from computers, vintage synths, to DJing.

--------------------
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent."


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
Posts: 2682
Loc: The King's Height
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Marky]
      #170163 - 19/08/05 04:43 PM
Eh......oh yes it is.

You must be in the wrong place.

I know I play devils advocate sometimes, but discussion and debate should cover all grounds and it's healthy.



--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Mr DiBergi



Joined: 29/09/04
Posts: 402
Loc: up yer daughters
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: BigAl]
      #170166 - 19/08/05 04:51 PM
You do go on a bit though sometimes Al.

By the way, I am not Patrick Moore. However I AM the real Marty DiBergi.

Let's boogie
(see?)

--------------------
Looking for musicians?
www.partysounds.co.uk


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Mr DiBergi]
      #170170 - 19/08/05 04:54 PM
I can still remeber the heated posts me and BA used to have on V2.

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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mz



Joined: 17/11/04
Posts: 151
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170203 - 19/08/05 06:07 PM
hahahahahaha

That little bit of "celebrity" action brought out the whole forum!

I think a few days ago somebody got really lumped by a few of you for posting about "analogue summing". Definitely anyone saying analogue v digital would get 2 or 3 annoyed posts like : check the forum this is old hat!!

But someone FAMOUS ...

ooo falling all over ourselves... 5 PAGES OF POSTS IN 2 DAYS

Thank you Dig Em, it must be a fellow Brooklyn thing, but I think it was hilarious even before your cover was blown! ahh gleeful


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: mz]
      #170212 - 19/08/05 06:25 PM
hehe the best bit was people beliving it was him! after all the hints, etc..

hehe i'm suprised I didnt get banned for pretending to be Elvis!

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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mz



Joined: 17/11/04
Posts: 151
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170235 - 19/08/05 07:10 PM
Wow! Polly the Parrot is on our humble forum!!

Welcome Polly and I am very interested to hear your views on the current debate regarding the best sample rate to record to tape.

I just cannot stop laughing....

really


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: mz]
      #170239 - 19/08/05 07:19 PM
Polly Parrot has produced numberous number one singles, and has worked with some of the finest musicans alive, including Tommy the Cat, Ratty the Rat, and Squek the Mouse.

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
Posts: 442
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170256 - 19/08/05 08:35 PM
big al

i find your internet personality boorish, oppressive, narrow-minded and mean-spirited

but that's just my opinion


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #170266 - 19/08/05 09:17 PM

At least he has a bit of spirit.

Rock on BigAl.


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4339
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170267 - 19/08/05 09:18 PM
Here are just a few random jottings.

"It is not a reliable, consistent or accurate medium. End of story."

True. But to me it sounds better than CD, but only in a good system.

Somebody asked about recording from a good vinyl set-up. Well, I have, and the results sounded and felt just like the vinyl.

This makes me feel that there is not a lot wrong with (good) digital, but that the euphony of the mechanics and magnetics of a vinyl-player just sound good.

I also think that part of the charm and perceived quality of vinyl is the low level stereo whooshes, and 'micro' crackles across the stereo stage.

Interesting point of Hugh's about hearing music mixed in a studio - when I first heard it it reminded me a bit of CD sound - took me a while to realise I was missing the 'vinyl' sound!

Just to remind ourselves that vinyl can sound horrendous, how many Cds have we bought that sound like bad vinyl? Because they are bad vinyl, cleaned up and sold.

I have not read the article yet, and look forward to doing so.

Well, well, well!

So it was a fake ID . . . Bloody silly, and what is the point of an apology, followed by a silly rant?

STILL, the debate on vinyl's potential to sound sublime IS valid.

G

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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Arpangel
active member


Joined: 12/07/03
Posts: 5527
Loc: London
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Jupiter_4]
      #170287 - 19/08/05 09:51 PM
I am imediatly dubious of anyone who says that anything is "better" than anything else, please hang up your anaorak and get a life, and stop taking up so much space on this forum, how can you be so obsessed with such a narrow aspect of this world.....maybe you were bullied at school....

Tony.


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Digital Emotion



Joined: 09/08/05
Posts: 219
Loc: Brooklyn NY USA
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170333 - 19/08/05 11:53 PM
Quote Max The Mac:


Which I might add is a dumb ass thing to do... and should not be seen as clever, funny, or something to be repeated.... unless of course you hate it here so much you're absolutely desperate to be banned.




Quote 0VU:


Just in case anyone was thinking of dusting off their autograph books for a little fawning adoration, the very entertaining incarnation of "Steve Albini" who so wowed everyone with his star presence yesterday won't be joining us today.




Quote Pink Floyd. The Wall. Lyrics by Roger Waters:


Good morning, Worm your honor.
The crown will plainly show
The prisoner who now stands before you
Was caught red-handed showing feelings
Showing feelings of an almost human nature.





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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotion]
      #170345 - 20/08/05 12:48 AM
did my porn thread just move? or did I have to many pints of courage best?

laurie x

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Designnotes]
      #170351 - 20/08/05 12:54 AM


Yes, i saw the word hardcore thereabouts, or hereabouts.

Was it not in reference to old school drum and bass?


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The real musiclover]
      #170355 - 20/08/05 12:59 AM
ooooo if they moved it, i might just have to repost!

the idea was the give people a break with some porn!

brb

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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Stan



Joined: 17/01/05
Posts: 1311
Loc: Big Rock Candy Mountain
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotion]
      #170362 - 20/08/05 01:06 AM
You are the lowest rank element yet to be detected on this forum.

--------------------
.. is this thing on?


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Stan]
      #170364 - 20/08/05 01:08 AM
Porn restored I can carry on my mision...

Is it me or is this thread not going anywhere, you've got people just saying I like this because em it sounds better... and then you've got people like hugh giving really well forumlated posts, and backed up arguments...

Is any one prepared to shift any ground?

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Stan]
      #170365 - 20/08/05 01:08 AM


Why is he deemed as such by you?


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PWGLE



Joined: 04/05/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: UK - Cardiff/Bath
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Stan]
      #170366 - 20/08/05 01:09 AM
Quote Stan:

You are the lowest rank element yet to be detected on this forum.




Please explain yourself. Is there any substance to your argument?
Or is it a wild allegation!



(woah this vinyl thread is kicking off call the bouncers!)

--------------------
P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?

Edited by Pirate Giant with Laser Eyes + Polly the Parrot! (20/08/05 01:10 AM)


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The real musiclover]
      #170367 - 20/08/05 01:10 AM

Oops, sorry, you mean him, not him.


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Scottdru
Cool Dude


Joined: 17/12/02
Posts: 4392
Loc: NYC: isle off the coast of Eur...
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Digital Emotion]
      #170386 - 20/08/05 02:44 AM
Quote Digi Em:


My sincere apologies and pledge


I would like to take this opportunity to extend my sincerest apologies to all of you . . . .

. . . .

I am taking this matter seriously, and so I have launched a comprehensive review
of my online practices and behavior to prevent similar incidents from occurring in the future.

I will do so while fully drawing upon the lessons that can be learnt.

I will deliver on my promise, because I know that’s the only way to restore confidence.





Well, I guess you blew that one, then.

Quote Digi Em:


Open letter to OVU


Hi OVU.
Was my apology groveling enough for you?




I can't speak for 0VU, but it was enough for me . . . until I realised you were being sarcastic in your initial apology. Or . . . if you weren't being sarcastic then, you might want to consider how your two posts since then have indicated that your apology and pledge to introspection were less than sincere. I have to admit I kind of wondered as to the wisdom of banning one of your login IDs but not the other, but since you are newer to us than CJ (this is not CJ's first offense, by the way, not by a long stretch), and you have offered some good contribution to this forum, we decided to let it slide for now.

That said, all options are still on the table -- just so you know. You should also know that, while 0VU was the one who actually pulled the plug, it was discussed and considered among several moderators who were here at the time, and we were in pretty unanimous agreement as to what needed to be done.

Quote:


But I can tell you about device that will knock your socks off. Telephone!!!
You could sort it out in a minute by calling Electrical Audio.




There was an effort to contact Electrical Audio and/or Steve Albini. I'm not sure if there has been a reply as of yet, as I wasn't involved in that stage.

Quote:


Maybe it can be "potentially very damaging", but this particular instance, was it?




If you get caught speeding, or if you enter someone's property illegally, or if you plot to murder or assassinate someone or, for that matter, someone's character (as just a couple examples), you may often bear the consequences of your actions, even if no-one is actually injured.

Quote:


If anything, SA got some free publicity and possibly a couple of clients.




Maybe. I suppose you could look at it that way, but I can tell you that if someone started logging on to Internet forums under my name, speaking as though they were me (intent to deceive, even temporarily), and discussing anything (let alone controversial views I might hold) without my knowledge and permission, I would be none to happy.

For starters, if I hold a controversial view and there is to be a discussion about it (or any other issue, for that matter) in my name, as though I am there, you can be damn sure I want to be there to make sure the arguments on behalf of my views are clearly and properly stated as I see them, rather than someone potentially posting a bunch of bollox in what looks like my name. I'm sure you'd want the same courtesy, especially if you had a reputation you've worked very hard to build. The music business can be very, very fickle, and careers can be damaged over some sometimes very insignificant things.

And then to pass the log-in details to just anybody on top of this. That could have gone ANYWHERE.

Sorry, man . . . if someone was going take the piss in my name, with efforts to convince people that said person is me, I want to be there to defend my honour, or the plug should be pulled. We thought we owed Steve that professional courtesy. And why should he even have to take the time out of his busy schedule to come here to do that, if we get it sorted here? Time he could be giving to a great up and coming band that deserves to have their music heard? And how likely is he going to be now to want to come here and post under his own name for real?

You also have to remember . . . this being an Internet forum and all, we have roughly 24,000 members here, not to mention the people who are not registered and just lurk. For threads like these, people might read a part of a thread, and then not come back to it again, to find out how it ends. People can walk away from a thread like this with a given impression, and never see the resolution. Some people may never know that this thread was not actually posted by Steve Albini.

Quote:


Also I protected this forum from further attacks which could've been damaging.
Try to impersonate someone now. No chance. Why? Because this forum was immunized. I did it.




This forum is not any more or less immunized from this kind of thing as a result of your actions.

The fact of the matter is that there are people who are past and current members of this forum who are at least as "legendary", etc. as Steve Albini. Some of these people used to post under their own names and no longer do, and a number of those people have left the forums . . . in large part because of some of the piss-taking and general bollox that has gone on here (most particularly before the forum was fully moderated).

If anything, some of those people my now be LESS likely to post here, or to post under their real names. And if Steve Albini DOES come here and post under his real name, I wonder how many people will simply not believe it after this fiasco, and start taking the piss. Yep, Digi Em, you did that. You helped to diminish a certain level of trust here amongst the members.

We hoped to repair that or minimise the damage to at least SOME degree by taking swift, decisive action, and making it very clear that this kind of thing will NOT be tolerated here. SOS and the moderation team have worked hard to foster an environment here that makes it possible (and comfortable) to welcome everyone from top pros and industry insiders to absolute beginners. That is very important to us, and we believe it is important to the vast majority of our membership.

Quote:


And also, be honest here. You started to do something only when I myself, surprised by some forumites naivety and mods inaction posted "Who wants to be next Steve Albini?" thread in Open Mic section (this thread was deleted by mods) with clue to "his" username and password.




A foolish assumption to say the least. Within a very short time after the first posting of this thread, I put out feelers to the other mods and admin, asking if this was the real Steve Albini or not. I posted as though it was (as I would like to be able to trust that someone would not be so foolish as to start posting here under false pretenses claiming to be a well known industry figure, and because others have posted here under their own names), but then immediately began to check, because I wanted to be sure it wasn't someone taking the piss. I hoped it was Steve, and I thought the debate could have been pretty interesting if it was.

One of us tried to contact Steve, and then we decided to begin looking at IP addresses for clues. It took us a little while to sort it, and we didn't want to have something go on and on if it took Steve a while to get back to us and we then found out that way that it wasn't him.

Quote:


ChickenJohn (not a chicken) was the first one to get the clue, then he edited original post a little to remove the clue. But I have to tell you it was still pretty obvious to anyone but the most naive. It would still be nice though if you'd edited the very first post and stuck a warning on it.




By the time that thread came up we had it pretty well sussed what was going on. But are you suggesting that every time an industry figure (or someone posing as said person) comes on posting under their real name, we should start posting bold disclaimers on their first posts until we can verify them? That would be pretty silly to say the very least.

Quote:


Fact: I posted 4 messages in original thread and one in Open Mic, ChicknJohn did the rest.




We know who posted what, thanks.

Quote:


I guess you read my(SA) posts yesterday, did it look like I was going to do it again? I already gave up the password without any motivation to do so. Why on earth did you decide to remove Digital Emotions ID?




You were essentially banned, but as I said because you are relative new to us under this name (Or perhaps we should dig further? We can if you wish.), we decided to give you a second chance, as it is EXTREMELY rare for us to ban someone without multiple offenses and multiple warnings. As I said, all options are still on the table, and if you like we can ban you entirely.
Quote:


Did it make you feel like a fecking authority figure?




Ouch. That was hardly the motivation on anybody's part, as I hope I've made crystal clear by now. I really wish for own your sake you hadn't said that . . . but, sadly, you did. (Disappointing.)

Quote:


And after you canceled "Steve Albini", for what reason you banned ChickenJohn?




Because it isn't his first offense, and he's been around here long enough that he definitely should have known better.

Quote:


Also I don't want you to think that this impersonation was premeditated.




I wish you had thought through the ramifications of it a lot longer before you went ahead with it then.

Quote:


I just wanted to start a thread after reading the interview, and then I thought, what if SA himself will ask the question?
To register new name I needed some information which to my surprise was available online and it took me 2 seconds
to get it. I bet that many SOS readers also didn't know but now know how accessible and affordable that studio is.
BTW line of text in the SOS about SA waiving his fee was as honest as my impersonation.




Just goes to show how easily trust can be gained and how easily it can be damaged. It takes a certain amount of trust and honesty to act in the manner Steve Albini does. That is extremely rare in people, and it is something that should be valued and treated with care and respect, rather than tossed around casually and/or abused. It is the cavalier treatment, or outright abuse, of that kind of trust and respect that causes many people to feel they cannot live their lives in this way.

Quote:


I admit, what I did was wrong. But you guys also positioned yourselfs as assholes.




I'm not so sure it is we who are the ones positioning ourselves thusly.

Quote:


However, we all have to agree on at least two things:
1 All of us here are pretty good people.
2 It is good to play music.




Amen!

Quote:


P.S. If anyones feelings were hurt, I am sorry.




Err . . . please make up your mind.

--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170447 - 20/08/05 09:16 AM
Dorking their shorts I can forgive, but spelling arsehole the American way I find difficult to forgive.

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: The Byre]
      #170451 - 20/08/05 09:27 AM
BTW, in this business, we get used to some Herbert pretending to be someone or something he is not.

For a while we had one Wally going around pretending to be our house engineer, another Wally telling people that he was the real money behind our studio and a third one pretending to be the producer of a band that was recording here. That last one even went as far as to go to a distributor and asked them if they wanted to distribute this band's latest record. This puzzeled the distributor somewhat as he had just signed a deal to take that very record on.

As the Blue Fairy said to Pinocio, there are short-legged lies and long-nosed lies. Usually we have to deal with the short-legged variety.

Though I do not think that in this case anything bad was intended and perhaps someone is being just a tad over-precious.

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4339
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170453 - 20/08/05 09:30 AM
Well said, Scott, and as usual, a wee bit more than my one-liners!

I'd love you moderators to dig deeper, and maybe PM* us regulars who treat this Forum with respect and affection.

G

*I love a bit of gossip, and it may firm up some opinions/guesses. It will also keep some naughty boys guessing, whether this happens, or not!

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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Sle



Joined: 21/07/05
Posts: 1057
Loc: UK
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Scottdru]
      #170459 - 20/08/05 09:52 AM
This forum is like the garden of Eden compared to a lot of places. The harshest one I've seen is that for GarrysMod - a computer game modification. He has an "Autoban" function that detects bad spelling and "Txt spk" or any questions answered in the FAQ, with hilarious results. Consider yourselves lucky, guys and gals!

--------------------
Stuff what I done


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__
Who's never been here


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 6263
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #170461 - 20/08/05 09:57 AM
Of course it could be a massive cover up. With the real SA changing his mind on opening his second thread. Quickly having that one deleted. But not being able to get this, the original thread deleted due to its size. And that it would have looked akward musilitically after he was looking like getting seriously outvoted on the 'better' soapbox. Maybe Digi took the bullet, not for this but for blasphemous posts elsewhere.

Don't dig too deep GJ. You never know what the investigation might throw up. The truth is out there. Someone just has to open the door and let it in. X


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 21548
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Vinyl is better than anything else. new [Re: Steve Albini]
      #170492 - 20/08/05 11:25 AM
Given that I'm now at least a year older after reading Scott's post (although it did all need to be said, of course), and that the last two pages of the six have contained nothing but puerile drivel of no relevance or importance to this forum, I'm going to lock this beast down.

Can I suggest the children go back to playing in the Community Creche Forum before the might IP banning sword falls once again.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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