Quote jaybee:

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re: what is the corredt level for the sub-woofer when mixing in 2:1. I'm in the music technology staff room at our college. nobody here knows, does anyone have the answer?!?

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11.9

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I've got rhythm, I ain't got pitch

Quote The real musiclover:

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Quote Michael Harrison:

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I'm not holding my breath however.

Mike

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Especially with that head cold, eh?

Try Sudafed. Easier than setting up a subwoofer.

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I'll be sweating it out with two hours of Taekwondo in the gym later tonight.

At least I'll have some success in getting something kicking...

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www.ehsound.co.uk - Live Sound Hire & Services

Quote Max The Mac:

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Quote jaybee:

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we asked for the correct LEVEL, none of the replies can provide a definitive to this exact point. Anyway, if you look over the thread, you'll see we were only responding to other peoples hostility......

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Because the operation of the sub is inextricably linked to the positioning within the room, and it's interaction with the other drivers, and the overall system's interaction with the room's physical acoustic parameters...... there is NO definitive answer to that point without knowing ALL the other variables

Max

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Im a first year stundet in uni (snigger if you want) and even I knew that. And this guy asked if the college staff room and STILL didnt have a clue... the lectures need a slap.. and the sack.

I don't care

Incidentally, I suppose, in the interests of Muck NOT being thrown at the nominally innocent, I should tell you i DO know which college it is, and it is NOT SAE anywhere...

i will however not be further drawn on the subject.


Max

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

As the saying goes:
Those who can, do, those who can't, teach.

I'll get my coat...

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Neowin - Where Unprofessional Journalism Looks Better

I do and I teach, the teaching pays for my doing. I'm Happy!! Its good when your workspace has a recording studio.

Quote jaybee:

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and I teach

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Cracker!!! This is going to be one of 'those' threads (light the blue touch paper) . . .

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www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member

Quote:

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jaybee:
I teach,

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OK, now I'm curious - what do you teach?


(And why did you start a second thread with this question when you already had an active thread wih the same question?)

Actually I thought that was an excellent joke. (The one about the transit van - heavens these various flames came in quick !)

Anyway.

If I understand the question correctly, you are asking if there is a rule-of-thumb like: 'If the main monitors are on 8, the sub should be on 5', or 'If your main monitors are 50W, the sub should be 100W'.

Don't shoot the messenger: there isn't.

You are looking for the level at which the monitoring system as a whole gives a flat frequency response, and this varies by room and by system.

So it depends on the relative power and efficiencies of the main monitors compared to the sub, the designed crossover point, and on the position of the speakers in the room and the room resonances. A mathematical solution to this problem is beyond me in detail, but would be iterative, not exact.

The main reason I haven't got subs is that they are legendarily problematic to set up. There is no way I could ever be bothered to crawl around my room experimenting with position and level, and running test signals etc etc etc. Unfortunately, that is what is takes.

You may ask why the crossover point of nearfields is a less problematic area. The answer is that you are using them in the, er near field, and they don't go as low as subs, so the room is less of an issue. Also, the designers have a pretty good idea of the relative positions of the woofer and tweeter, because they are nailed in place.

Oh, well. Good luck.

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Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

Edited by SecretSam (12/09/05 04:51 PM)

Quote jaybee:

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let's not get too hostile people. back to the original question-whats the correct level for the sub in 2:1-can anyone supply the answer???

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What a f***ing stupid question! You actually teach this stuff?

OK. The answer is 85.73db. At a guess.

Happy to help.

Could help more if I knew what the speakers, amps, room dimensions, acoustic treatments, reverb times etc are.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

***MODERATION EDIT: Which bit of the following statement, taken from the huge cut and paste you made, did you miss or not understand? I appreciate that you were trying to help but please don't infringe someone else's copyright to do it. (Unless of course you had permisson - in which case PM me and I'll reinstate the text) 0VU***

***EDIT Update:
The link for Digital Domain (Bob Katz's site) is:

digido.com

where the specific article to which this post originally referred may be found under "Articles" then "Subwoofers".

0VU ****


These HTML documents are Copyright 1999-2003 Digital Domain, Inc. All rights reserved. The following are trademarks of Digital Domain, Inc.: Digital Domain, Digi-nary. These documents may not be reproduced in any manner without the permission of the copyright owner. We invite the audio and music community to link to this web site, which will be periodically revised. Last revised December 2003.

Edited by 0VU (13/09/05 10:56 AM)

www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul02/articles/subwoofers.asp
www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr03/articles/studiosos0403.asp

I use Chesky Records' 'Gold' set-up disc, tracks 14-16, for sub set-up;
Finlandia Records' 'Surround Test CD' also has some useful tones and sweeps
(trks 30-67); the Denon 'Audio Techical CD' has some more esoteric stuff.

Hi Monsieur Maboul, I notice your haven't made many posts so here's a belated 'welcome to the forum'...

Regarding the Mod's edit of your post... it's common practice to link to sites from this forum, and it's perfectly ok to do so. I think you'd get away with copying and pasting a short paragraph of text from another site, especially if you credit it accordingly, but it's still better to post a link.

Goin back to the original question i always stick the sub right in the corner and turn the levels right up till it rumbles the studio.

hope this helps

it's terrible the people they bring in to suposidly teach these days. In my old college they hired someone from my course (which wasnt even music tech) to do some music tech lecturing and the sound for some college gigs... this guy doesnt know .. anything.. and is half deaf.. wtf

There should be somthing to let people know the college lecturers are competant and not just someone who knows [ ****** ] all but had the gift of the gab to blag someone in an interview.

Quote Mophed:

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it's terrible the people they bring in to suposidly teach these days. In my old college they hired someone from my course (which wasnt even music tech) to do some music tech lecturing and the sound for some college gigs... this guy doesnt know .. anything.. and is half deaf...all but had the gift of the gab to blag someone in an interview.

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I completely agree. However, we can't blame the poster for being brought in and doing his best. What I have a problem with is going into a hissy fit because you get less than ten replies.

edited spelling

Edited by Wibbleflex (13/09/05 10:36 AM)

Quote:

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Ultimate Fish:
Regarding the Mod's edit of your post... it's common practice to link to sites from this forum, and it's perfectly ok to do so. I think you'd get away with copying and pasting a short paragraph of text from another site, especially if you credit it accordingly, but it's still better to post a link.

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Sorry, I should've made myself clearer on that edit.

Just to confirm what Ultimate Fish said, there's normally no problem with links or appropriately credited quotes/extracts but cutting and pasting entire articles (without permission) is not generally allowed, especially when the owner of the article has felt the need to express their copyright but given permission for it to be linked (rather than reproduced). I'll put the link in if I can find it.

and er... Welcome to the forum Maboul

Just thought I'd jump in there as 0VU really is an asset to the forum, knowledgable, friendly and usually suffers fools fairly well to boot.

Wouldn't want anyone getting the wrong idea from his robust moderation

Edited by Ultimate Fish (13/09/05 11:42 AM)

i'd just like to say that as a music technology user I'm a bit suprised by the tone of the forum. Alot of negativity and finger pointing.

Only in this thread - and there's a reason for that.

And plus, we're musicians! Negativity our speciality

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Stuff what I done

Hi,

I am a colleague of the initial 'post-er' on this thread and I am very disappointed at many of the reponses. First of all, I would like to thank the people that did respond constructively, your comments were very interesting.

On the other hand, I feel the question has been mis-understood by quite a few people. As experienced industry workers and good educationalists we obviously knew you could adjust your monitor set up taking into account the room and equipment variables.

The point of the post was to find someone who has a lot of experience specifically in setting up surround systems to find if there is anything more scientific that can be used to obtain reliable mixing environments. Many surround systems come with guides but these are still not objective, hence the desire to find someone who specialises in this.

The amount of 'ego-posts' within this thread has been very disappointing with many people clearly undermining their knowledge by mocking others. Also, what is the point of having a forum if when any user comes on, they are mocked. Surely, if a younger enthusiastic user asked a relatively simple question we shouldn't mock them, but help them, and that is one excellent reason to have institutes around.

J

Hi jonkemon78, welcome to the forum..... I think the problem is that the original post contained it's fair share of ego.

Had your colleague not referred to being part of a college then they'd probably have got a better response. Instead they posted, what was, frankly, a badly worded question that clearly demonstrated a lack of basic knowledge and suggested a distinct laziness in trying to find the answer through another source.

But yes, you'll get ego posting here, just as you would on many messageboards, but to be honest this forum has more knowledable, helpful people than many I've spent time on.

And we come back to the original point. Any decent monitoring system will come with manuals telling you how to do this stuff. A good manufacturer will support you in setting up their product correctly. Most provide test tones and instructions on how to use them to make sure you've got the relative level of your sub correct.

Finally, I would also say the original post wasn't about surround, it was specifically about a 2.1 setup, and that was mis-typed as 2:1.

I think you'll find the reason most people here will have a lack of patience is that you've got some guys here (and I don't count myself in this) who really know their stuff and have bags of experience. There are courses and colleges out there teaching things badly and sometimes plain wrong. You'll find little sympathy for that.

Quote jonkemon78:

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Hi,

I am a colleague of the initial 'post-er' on this thread and I am very disappointed at many of the reponses. First of all, I would like to thank the people that did respond constructively, your comments were very interesting.

On the other hand, I feel the question has been mis-understood by quite a few people. As experienced industry workers and good educationalists we obviously knew you could adjust your monitor set up taking into account the room and equipment variables.

The point of the post was to find someone who has a lot of experience specifically in setting up surround systems to find if there is anything more scientific that can be used to obtain reliable mixing environments. Many surround systems come with guides but these are still not objective, hence the desire to find someone who specialises in this.

The amount of 'ego-posts' within this thread has been very disappointing with many people clearly undermining their knowledge by mocking others. Also, what is the point of having a forum if when any user comes on, they are mocked. Surely, if a younger enthusiastic user asked a relatively simple question we shouldn't mock them, but help them, and that is one excellent reason to have institutes around.

J

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Hold on i have have the answer you are looking for!!!!

Your Knob for your subwoofer should be set exactly 1 quater turn less then the setting that makes you need the loo

Then put your satelites on 6 or 7 o clock.
Subjectively that should work fine.

The Posing of the question in the manner used, Clearly and decisively implied a complete ignorance of the subject matter... which , given the professed position of the member in question, gave natural rise to the consensus that there was at the very least "an issue" with the competency of the faculty in question.

Furthermore, when challenged, instead of a mature, reasoned clarification of the thrust of the question, and supporting content implying comprehension of the issues, a combative , almost proudly ignorant response was elicited.

There are a number of qualified, professional, ethically upright members who undertake this sort of thing for a living, and even more who teach Music , Music Tech, and related subjects.....

All of whom almost certainly knew both the answer, and how to phrase the question constructively.

NO implication of understanding of the core acoustic issues was given at any stage until your post.

Sadly, I, and other members of the Moderation staff have personally encountered members of Faculty at various locations, who were unquestionably incompetent to be teaching at any serious level.
This is something that is of serious concern for any number of reasons....

Primarily, it's fair to say a consensus exists about the following points.,

1) Students are usually firmly encouraged to do their own leg work and research, that is how they learn the subject matter thoroughly. Thus, most Forum members frequently do not contribute all that much in response to blatant "Do my assignment for me" questions.... But are more generally charitable towards open and frank students, asking supporting questions in a clear attempt to undertake their work in an appropriate manner. Ultimately, this would hopefully lead to students passing out of classes with better grades and a real understanding, as opposed to a bit of paper/. Given that there are some 10,000 Students after @150 jobs .... this is in everyone's interests.

2)
When, occasionally, Teaching staff ask questions, and it's something that is of intrinsically basic importance that they understand in order to be able to competently teach any higher level of Music tech. Then many are generally inclined, fairly in my view, to be perhaps a bit less than utterly charitable with such members. It's one thing to be asking complex and challenging questions that aren't about the obvious core principles within our field... in the name of research or clarification of areas that are subjective at best, nightmares of inconsistency at worst, it's quite another to be asking questions that by both content and manner, imply a disturbing lack of comprehension.

After all, if the people teaching students about these matters, do not fully comprehend it themselves, what chance have the students got of being able to make good use of such "knowledge" ??

Suffice it to say that we have encountered these disturbing scenarios a few times too many.... In the Flesh as well as "Cyberspace"


A recent discussion with Hugh revealed he had even scarier stories of such things than I did....

He's at the IBC show right now... I'm sure he'd have comment to make were he around.

\

Max

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Thanks 'ultimate fish' for the sensible reply.

I agree with you somewhat however, I don't think a mis-post of ':' or '.' should make a difference to the response. I think though, my point has been brilliantly summed up by our friend 'Thorbing purple helm lord' with his response. 'Nothing I say is true' should read 'Nothing I say is funny'.

In addition, I think my Colleague was only putting it into context, explaining his situation when he mentioned the college. I find that many engineers slate educationalists and institutions because of insecurity. They feel that we think we know everything, which is totally not true, we know we don't and crave more knowledge. I also agree though that there are institutes who do teach poorly but these are taught by engineer types mentioned above. Anybody who truly knows the area, knows that there are normally several different techniques for doing even the most simplest things and we encourage this within our colllege, I feel this should be the attitude everywhere.

Well don't that just beat all! I mean, bloody hell, what a damn cheek. Your friend posted a question on how to set up a stereo with sub and I and several others gave him a comprehesive answer. He even got links to pages where he can read up on this subject. We thought that he is perhaps a first year student or maybe an A-level pupil that needs pointing in the right direction.

He came back with the satement:

Quote jaybee:

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It seems we have discovered the 'emperor's new clothes'nobody knows how to do this. The staff at this college are at the vanguard.

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and quite honestly, one does not know where to start with something like that.

Firstly, let's get one thing straight here: some of the people posting on this forum are top engineers with credits to CDs, films etc., that you have heard of. I can think of three or four people on this forum that have produced landmark recordings. Benchmarks against which the rest of the industry measures itself. One of these people has even taken the trouble to post a reply to your friend.

And what does this well-known engineer get for his pains? Bloody rudness from some jumped up little twerp who says the only he and his collegues are 'in the vanguard.'

Now, to top it all, we hear that he is a lecturer in some college somewhere.

I would to tell you some of the credits of some of those on this forum and even on this thread, unfortunately I cannot, but if you and your friend take the time to get to know some of them and read their posts and perhaps even meet some of them now and then, you would not write bithering rubbish like that.

We all sometimes put our feet in our mouths (me in particular!) and I often get to feel hot breath on the back of my neck as I argue with mastering and broadcast engineers about the very fundamentals of their trade, but that really beats all!

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www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member

o.k. calm down geezer, i was joking, you know, having a joke. i think you need to administer a 'chill pill' and listen to some of your mates landmark recordings. innit.

Quote: "A recent discussion with Hugh revealed he had even scarier stories of such things than I did.... "
_________________________________________________________

A band came to our studio two years back with an older guy as their engineer. They were all students at some college somewhere and the recording was a demo for their college band.

To cut a long story short, this 'engineer' made every mistake in the book. I can honestly say that of all the guest engineers here, he was head-and-shoulders the worst. The drums collapsed into one mushy phase cancellation in mono and the rest was just as bad or worse.

Yes friends, you've guessed it! He was their music tech lecturer!

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www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member

yeah sure. Having said that, the producer of pepe deluxe's album, featuring a massive u.k no.1 which got picked up by Levis for their ad campaign, teaches.. yes you've guessed it, music tech. Your point is pointless.

Quote jonkemon78:

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I find that many engineers slate educationalists and institutions because of insecurity. They feel that we think we know everything, which is totally not true,

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1. Many of us here either are or have been music tech lecturers.

2. You wouldn't chucking futtle it's totally not true!

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www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member

Clearly, you are the same type of lecturer I was discussing in my post. One, who's ego is very important to them. You didn't get the vanguard joke and now you are acting very defensively.

When you consider the number of young people on this forum as either registered users or guests.

And the amount of money they potentially have available to pump into the music education pot.

Well the attitude of the original thread poster doesnt do much to publicise this industry in a favourable light.

I had learned about sub placement withing two or three posts on this thread. Very educational, ive never used one. But the lecturer seemingly couldnt get it!

How many young potential students watching this thread have just been finally convinced to keep their money in their pocket. Buy a small home studio, and learn by experience and perhaps some hours here, the library and so on.

How much money did this silly lad just deprive his industry of?

I just don't get it. You are making yourself and the business claim to work in look amateurish and incompetent.

Why would you want to do that?

Can I just say that I think this is fantastic forum with some very helpful and knowledgable people. The Byre, in paticular, is one of those who often reply with a good and helpful answer (as per the original version of this thread).

I do get very annoyed by posts that say things like "NO REPLIES-nobody knows? or nobody cares?!" as if people have a right to an answer - especially if the question is meaningless, as in this case. We seemed to have loads of these a liitle while ago and I think it is extremely bad nettiquette, even if it was in jest.

Occasional and infrequent bumping a post to bring it back to people's attention is a better way IMHO.

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Andrew

Hey jonkemon78/jaybee… please stop digging.

Tim ;o)

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote jonkemon78:

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Thanks 'ultimate fish' for the sensible reply.

I agree with you somewhat however, I don't think a mis-post of ':' or '.' should make a difference to the response. I think though, my point has been brilliantly summed up by our friend 'Thorbing purple helm lord' with his response. 'Nothing I say is true' should read 'Nothing I say is funny'.

In addition, I think my Colleague was only putting it into context, explaining his situation when he mentioned the college. I find that many engineers slate educationalists and institutions because of insecurity. They feel that we think we know everything, which is totally not true, we know we don't and crave more knowledge. I also agree though that there are institutes who do teach poorly but these are taught by engineer types mentioned above. Anybody who truly knows the area, knows that there are normally several different techniques for doing even the most simplest things and we encourage this within our colllege, I feel this should be the attitude everywhere.

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Unfortunately the way your pal goes about eliciting the knowledge he 'craves' leaves a lot to be desired.

Is he this rude to the students?

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I've got rhythm, I ain't got pitch

Quote:

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Your Knob for your subwoofer should be set exactly 1 quater turn less then the setting that makes you need the loo

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lol yea if u follow through the levels are definitely to high!

this smells like a student post to me...especially with a subject heading like that...looks like some1 one left there practical till the last minute and no1 is willing to help!

Edited by mood (13/09/05 03:45 PM)

Quote jaybee:

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yeah sure. Having said that, the producer of pepe deluxe's album, featuring a massive u.k no.1 which got picked up by Levis for their ad campaign, teaches.. yes you've guessed it, music tech. Your point is pointless.

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not at all, your suggestion is rediculous.. with everything there are those who are good at what they do and those who are not... and those who dont have a clue should definatly not be 'educateing' other people,.. passing on bad skills, judgements and ideas is completely counter productive. It's no wonder that people won't believe someone knows what they are doing by having a peice of paper (qualification), because the peice of paper could be signed by the biggest dipstick and music technology retard going.../ the lecturer's at that college

Quote Grim Audière:

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Can I just say that I think this is fantastic forum with some very helpful and knowledgable people. The Byre, in paticular, is one of those who often reply with a good and helpful answer (as per the original version of this thread).

I do get very annoyed by posts that say things like "NO REPLIES-nobody knows? or nobody cares?!" as if people have a right to an answer - especially if the question is meaningless, as in this case. We seemed to have loads of these a liitle while ago and I think it is extremely bad nettiquette, even if it was in jest.

Occasional and infrequent bumping a post to bring it back to people's attention is a better way IMHO.

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Round of applause required, methinks. Particularly the part regarding ettiquette...

Mike

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www.ehsound.co.uk - Live Sound Hire & Services